[Haruhi] Sympathy

[Brian]

Kyon used to humor Haruhi from a position of weakness and a little interest/affection; here he's humoring her (and that's it) from a position of strength.

I dislike this aspect; this is entirely unintentional--  Neither Haruhi nor Kyon have any conception of the relative 'weakness' or 'strength' of their positions in the story this far.  Kyon's the Ace, but that doesn't have any bearing on how he relates to Haruhi (yet).  Likewise, Haruhi's still actually gifted enough to match Kyon if she puts effort into it; the main difference is she has to work at it, and it's not 'fun'.

The most noticeable difference in Haruhi is her lack of complete confidence. She still has a lot, but it's not the force of nature it was before.

While I agree that Haruhi projects confidence, I'm not sure I agree that she actually feels it (in canon).  If so, then she becomes very difficult for me to sympathize with; someone who never experiences doubt, uncertainty, or faces (genuine) challenges is on a fast-track to Boring Invincible Hero territory.  (Made worse by a decidedly non-heroic demeanor.)  This fic is generally meant to be an expansion of my image of how Haruhi is in canon.  Naturally, not everyone will agree....

My concept of Haruhi's character is that she has vulnerabilities and does have doubts and concerns--  She just ignores them whenever possible, because of her pride and--  And this is something for the character study thread.  I'll try and add to that later today.

Ah, sorry. :x

Anyway.  I think you skipped the discussion where I planned to revise chapter two from how it's presented, didn't you? >_>;;

Yeah, that's....  I'll go ahead and pull it down since it's not the 'actual' chapter.  My bad.

Waiting on more plot before commenting on that.

At this point, you may be waiting for quite a while. >_<

Thank you for the comments regardless.  :)

Aside: Broizumi is in NO WAY leading to a Kyon/Koizumi ship, and if anyone even seriously thinks it's heading that way, I'll be outside in the hall throwing up about ... something else.   D:

[JonBob]

I suppose I say Kyon is in a position of strength because of, among other things, his physical strength. He can't be physically bullied around any more. In addition, he's demonstrated his academic strengths, and apparently has stronger social connections as well (or a higher social standing). Ultimately, I'd say he has the strength here because if he wanted to, he could easily back out.

As for Haruhi's confidence, well, luckily, Haruhi does develop as a character away from complete (outward) confidence. I suppose I expected her to start at the same place, even if she developed away from it.

On skipping discussions.... yeah.... there's a lot of it.... and I don't always read everything.... ........ ....... Waiting on Chapter 2v2!

[Brian]

I always get annoyed at myself when I'm daunted by the seeming scope of required revisions.

And then don't need to touch it nearly as much as I was expecting. -_-

This has been languishing too long; here's a revised chapter two.  Ah ... surprisingly little has changed, outside of the scenes with Mikuru--  Haruhi's PoV is now more excited/oblivious.  Hopefully this works a bit better.

[sarsaparilla]

I think that you've managed to find the exactly proper balance of social obliviousness and genki for Haruhi's actions here; I find the entire portrayal agreeable and actually feel sympathy for her efforts, no matter how misguided, when seen from this perspective.

[Brian]

Excellent--  That's exactly what I was hoping for.  Thank you for the feedback, Saraparilla; now, on to chapter three....

[Brian]

Okay, the revisions to chapter two seem to have addressed the issues people had brought up (though, I suppose for me it was a relatively small writing gaffe).  Moving forward, a wild chapter three has appeared!

[Muphrid]

"Wait, you had both keys?" I ask.

I'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?

It's ... a bit loose around the chest for me -- the hips are a bit loose, too.  Then again, it's also roomier around my stomach than I need--  Probably Mikuru-chan will look better in this.  But that's alright; this should be fun anyway!

Do you like how "probably" is placed in that sentence?  It feels like it should go between "will" and "look" but maybe that's just a personal thing.

After that we step into the elevator -- straight to the top!  Yuki's family must be really well off -- but when she lets me into her apartment, I'm kind of taken aback.  Why doesn't she have furniture?  There's a kotatsu, but the girl doesn't even have as much as a bookshelf, otherwise?

Should this really end with a question mark?

I don't run, just stalking angrily back to my house.  I can't figure out what Yuki really meant--  The only thing I can come up with, though, ?is that it's some prank.  I'll give Kyon points over her -- he can be kind of boring, but at least he doesn't pull crap like that!

Misplaced question mark here.


This is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being.  Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak.  Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too?  I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity.  It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know.  I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something.  I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.

[Arakawa]

Something I noticed:

At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if those powers were real, what would I do with them?

This reads possibly like the reasoning jumped the gun from Kyon having powers to Haruhi having powers. I can't tell whether you mean something like

"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if I had powers like that, what would I do with them?"

or something more like

"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if his powers were real, how would I deal with that?"

Crap-- I barely have time to get there! Kitaguchi station? She could have just asked me!

I can see how this was hard to write. Still, Haruhi in this one is just a major jerkass, definitely not a monster. Maybe somehow drawing the reader's attention to the fact that, using a bookmark as an invitation means that Yuki is being a bit of of a jerk (by human standards) as well, might make Haruhi's behaviour feel a bit less harsh.

(This is probably how Haruhi might feel about Yuki's behaviour.)

Back in Melancholy Kyon just let the issue go without comment, because he's that kind of guy.

Wait, it occurs to me now,

Oh, I wish she were telling the truth, not just being bitchy about this entire thing-- So, she's pissed off about me getting the second key, or something? Well, if this is her answer, whatever.

The connection between getting the second key and getting the invitation is a bit tenuous. Given that Yuki gave Haruhi the book with the key, and she would have prepared the bookmark in advance of the topic even being brought up. It would be more logical of Haruhi to suspect Yuki of being 'bitchy' and passive-aggressive about having her room taken, just in general.

So either Haruhi is being oblivious, or (not enough in the chapter to conclude this convolution, but whattheheck) she thinks Yuki was going to invite her for some other reason but then got angry (about the room, about the key, about Haruhi not showing up the first time) and decided to play her for a fool?

I don't know, I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this.

[Brian]

I'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?

No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already.  Not sure how to make this clearer.

Do you like how "probably" is placed in that sentence?  It feels like it should go between "will" and "look" but maybe that's just a personal thing.

Yeah; stylism pretty much.

After that we step into the elevator -- straight to the top!  Yuki's family must be really well off -- but when she lets me into her apartment, I'm kind of taken aback.  Why doesn't she have furniture?  There's a kotatsu, but the girl doesn't even have as much as a bookshelf, otherwise?

Should this really end with a question mark?

Yes; this is expressing doubt.  I thought it was clear from context; evidently it requires reworking?

Misplaced question mark here.

Oops!  Not sure how that happened.

This is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being.  Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak.  Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too?  I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity.  It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know.  I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something.  I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.

Well, I'm not personally sure how Kyon making mistakes would make _Haruhi_ sympathetic.  I also realize that from a reader perspective Haruhi is making mistakes -- but Haruhi doesn't have your knowledge of the series.  Kyon making mistakes would be fine, but ... this is Kyon.  He'd need to _do_ things to make mistakes, and if he were active, I don't think he'd be Kyon.

That's kind of a difficult route for me to go and feel true to the characters (for me).  I'm not sure I can have Kyon be active without throwing everything wildly off course.

So--  Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic?  I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this.  I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices--  But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.

Is it that far off?  I have, I guess, a pretty poor grasp of her character from her own perspective. :/

Given that this is only the first club member to offer a revelation, does it need to be addressed here, or is there room in future chapters?

[Oroboro]

Out of curiosity, what's stopping Nagato from actually showing Haruhi proof? If I remember correctly, Kyon never even bothered to ask.

Honestly I'd just chalk it up to "Narrative Causality" as an answer, but was just wondering if you had something else in mind, or a place to go with it.

[Brian]

This reads possibly like the reasoning jumped the gun from Kyon having powers to Haruhi having powers. I can't tell whether you mean something like

"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if I had powers like that, what would I do with them?"

or something more like

"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if his powers were real, how would I deal with that?"

Nothing like that--  It was meant to be a joke at the original series--  Haruhi basically saying, "I can't even imagine what that'd be like," even though....

Yeah, it's somewhat meta, but mostly I guess there's really just not enough room in the framework of this story to crack that kind of joke.  I'll cut it.  (Also, I see it was just poorly done anyway.  Oh well.)

Not the garbage about being an alien -- that's just stupid.  But the part about Kyon having powers that let him reshape the world around him.  At least, if I understood what she was talking about.  I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true?  And ... if those powers were real, sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?

     Probably it's pointless to dream about things like that, but it makes for a good distraction.

I can see how this was hard to write. Still, Haruhi in this one is just a major jerkass, definitely not a monster. Maybe somehow drawing the reader's attention to the fact that, using a bookmark as an invitation means that Yuki is being a bit of of a jerk (by human standards) as well, might make Haruhi's behaviour feel a bit less harsh.

(This is probably how Haruhi might feel about Yuki's behaviour.)

Back in Melancholy Kyon just let the issue go without comment, because he's that kind of guy.

Well--  Remember even Kyon didn't buy Yuki's explanation.  There we have the bias of 'hormonal male teen is invited into somewhat cute girl's apartment alone.'  Still ... if that doesn't occur to a reader normally....  I guess Haruhi can wonder what Kyon's reaction might be to being invited over, or how a stereotypical 'guy' would react.

I'm not sure if that feels true to her character -- that she'd think about that instead of assuming it's something else and wondering what, specifically.

Wait, it occurs to me now,

Oh, I wish she were telling the truth, not just being bitchy about this entire thing-- So, she's pissed off about me getting the second key, or something? Well, if this is her answer, whatever.

The connection between getting the second key and getting the invitation is a bit tenuous. Given that Yuki gave Haruhi the book with the key, and she would have prepared the bookmark in advance of the topic even being brought up. It would be more logical of Haruhi to suspect Yuki of being 'bitchy' and passive-aggressive about having her room taken, just in general.

So either Haruhi is being oblivious, or (not enough in the chapter to conclude this convolution, but whattheheck) she thinks Yuki was going to invite her for some other reason but then got angry (about the room, about the key, about Haruhi not showing up the first time) and decided to play her for a fool?

I don't know, I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this.

Eh, just an oversight on my part; Haruhi shouldn't have made that mental slip.  The suggestion for it being the room works; Haruhi could then reason Yuki gave up the key to encourage Haruhi to read the book (and find the marker) sooner.


I'll get those revisions in tomorrow; I suspect Sarsaparilla might point out some additional errors on my part. :x


Still, this feels a bit less 'off' than last chapter so far, so there's that, at least. :)

Thanks for the feedback, guys!

[Brian]

Out of curiosity, what's stopping Nagato from actually showing Haruhi proof? If I remember correctly, Kyon never even bothered to ask.

Honestly I'd just chalk it up to "Narrative Causality" as an answer, but was just wondering if you had something else in mind, or a place to go with it.

Presumably, Nagato doesn't have permission because a demonstration is too much of an influence on her (and therefore Kyon).  Absolutely, it would change Haruhi's behavior.

[sarsaparilla]

Actually, I find Haruhi's behavior here completely in line with what has been told before (on top of canon), and there isn't anything that sticks out so much that I'd feel a need to comment. If you think that it could help, you could underline Haruhi's reasons for rejecting Yuki's story a bit more than it is now (basically, incredulity at supernatural being so 'easy' to find, and annoyance at it being that guy, as it directly challenges her basic assumptions).

When Haruhi takes photos of Asahina, apparently Kyon and Koizumi are present but don't react in any way? This was left unclear and I expected to see at least some reaction.

You mention Kitaguchi station, but the station closest to Yuki's residence and the riverside meeting place is Kurakuenguchi (between Kouyouen and Shukugawa); according to map Kitaguchi is on a different line to the east of Shukugawa. Or do the novels say otherwise, I don't remember?

[Arakawa]

Yeah, it's somewhat meta, but mostly I guess there's really just not enough room in the framework of this story to crack that kind of joke.  I'll cut it.  (Also, I see it was just poorly done anyway.  Oh well.)

Bit goofy, but it might work to have something in the ballpark of:

Not the garbage about being an alien -- that's just stupid.  But the part about Kyon having powers that let him reshape the world around him.  At least, if I understood what she was talking about.  I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? Well, for starters, it would neatly explain why the world is just so ordinary! If I was the one with powers like that, I'd certainly... well, I'd...

Well, I'd think of something!

Still, if Kyon really did have powers, and I did tell him about them... what sorts of adventures and fun could we have, then?

Probably it's pointless to dream about things like that, but it makes for a good distraction.

Meh, YMMV. (You certainly need to make some tradeoffs to shoehorn this joke into the story, you're right about that.)

That aside, you missed a 'what' in your revision:

And ... if those powers were real, sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?

And ... if those powers were real, what sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?

No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already.  Not sure how to make this clearer.

Maybe just explain it in the narration? Something like:

"Wait, you had both keys?" I ask.

I mean, it's not like she's going to hand over her key just like that if that leaves her without a spare on hand...

"I will retrieve the second key tomorrow morning."

... or maybe she is. {insert suitable year1!Haruhi snark}

I'm not sure how well the "begin... punchline ... double take" thing fits with the style. But you get the basic idea of how it might be clarified.

[Muphrid]

I'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?

No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already.  Not sure how to make this clearer.

I'm just confused as to what Haruhi's thinking.  If she thinks Nagato has both keys, why is she surprised upon receiving one?  If she doesn't think Nagato has it, then why is she asking for it?  One of those questions applies.  Is the answer in the text and I just missed it?

This is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being.  Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak.  Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too?  I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity.  It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know.  I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something.  I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.

Well, I'm not personally sure how Kyon making mistakes would make _Haruhi_ sympathetic.  I also realize that from a reader perspective Haruhi is making mistakes -- but Haruhi doesn't have your knowledge of the series.  Kyon making mistakes would be fine, but ... this is Kyon.  He'd need to _do_ things to make mistakes, and if he were active, I don't think he'd be Kyon.

That's kind of a difficult route for me to go and feel true to the characters (for me).  I'm not sure I can have Kyon be active without throwing everything wildly off course.

So--  Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic?  I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this.  I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices--  But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.

Is it that far off?  I have, I guess, a pretty poor grasp of her character from her own perspective. :/

Given that this is only the first club member to offer a revelation, does it need to be addressed here, or is there room in future chapters?

I felt like Haruhi's behavior and narration were in line with her character.  Maybe I just read the story wrong--in 00, Haruhi thinks Kyon should see things from her perspective, and Kyon seems to respond that she should see things from his as well.  I guess from that I thought this was an experience both characters would go through and learn something from, and so showing Kyon making mistakes like Haruhi is...maybe it wouldn't make her more sympathetic, but it would feel more balanced?  But if this piece is really only about Haruhi, then yeah, that wouldn't be appropriate.  What's there is true to Haruhi, and I guess there's time later for a hope spot or so.  It doesn't need to be now.

You mention Kitaguchi station, but the station closest to Yuki's residence and the riverside meeting place is Kurakuenguchi (between Kouyouen and Shukugawa); according to map Kitaguchi is on a different line to the east of Shukugawa. Or do the novels say otherwise, I don't remember?

In the novel, Nagato asks Kyon to meet her at Kouyouen Station.