Nosy Questions: Tropes Edition

[VySaika]

Posted this on another forum, but figured the folks here might have something to say about it as well! Apologies if this isn't the right section of the board for this.

So I watched the new Captain America movie this morning, and while at lunch afterwards was talking to jenna about use of tropes and cliches in media(stemmed from talking about face-heel turns and the reverse). And I started wondering what other people think of them! So here we are.

Warning: this post will do a whole lot of linking to TV Tropes, since it's a good way to explain what I mean by things.

-------------------

Tropes Specific Section

1 - What are your general thoughts on tropes and cliches in writing? Always bad? Can be used for good? Don't worry about them and write whatever you want to write anyway? Something else entirely?

2 - Do you have a favorite Face Heel Turn? Or just one you thought was particularly effective? More than one you think worth pointing out as good is fine!
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn

3 - How about a Heel Face Turn?
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn

4 - And for the reverse, any egregiously bad examples of either of those you want to call out as being such?

5 - Another favorite of mine is the Five Man Band. Familiar with it? (before my link here, anyway)
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand

5b - Do you have a favorite example of one? Or a role within it you tend to like characters of the most?

6 - On the subject of favorite tropes, do you have any you tend to like seeing?

7 - Any that just irritate you on principle?

General Creativity Section

8 - Do you do any writing or creating of your own? Even if it's stuff you don't let people really see is fine. (I'd consider something like GMing for roleplaying games to count)

9 - What genres do you enjoy the most, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer of media? These can end up as very different things!

10 - Any genres you actively avoid? Again, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer?

[Anastasia]

1 - What are your general thoughts on tropes and cliches in writing? Always bad? Can be used for good? Don't worry about them and write whatever you want to write anyway? Something else entirely?

Cliches are unavoidable, be it using them or consciously trying to subvert them. It's all about how you write and weave the story.

I have a less agreeable view of tropes. Personally, I feel the over-classification of story elements tends to be more destructive than anything else. It makes it too easy to jam things into categories and encourages mental stagnation by designing things to fit into those categories.

2 - Do you have a favorite Face Heel Turn? Or just one you thought was particularly effective? More than one you think worth pointing out as good is fine!
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn

Not offhand.

3 - How about a Heel Face Turn?
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn

Back in 2000-2002ish, Triple H had a run where he slowly teased a face turn. It built up to a head and he promptly went full heel instead of making the turn. It was nicely played up. I mostly remember him hamming it up over several weeks on Monday Night Raw, I think it was when Mick Foley was Commissioner.

4 - And for the reverse, any egregiously bad examples of either of those you want to call out as being such?

None come to mind. I tend to consider it as a character failing rather than this.

5 - Another favorite of mine is the Five Man Band. Familiar with it? (before my link here, anyway)
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand

5b - Do you have a favorite example of one? Or a role within it you tend to like characters of the most?

No, not really. The Power Rangers?

6 - On the subject of favorite tropes, do you have any you tend to like seeing?

Not really.

7 - Any that just irritate you on principle?

Not really. It's more a matter of execution than the ingredients of the story.

8 - Do you do any writing or creating of your own? Even if it's stuff you don't let people really see is fine. (I'd consider something like GMing for roleplaying games to count)

Lots of DMing stuff here, actually. There's some creative writing when I design areas, campaigns and fluff, as well as NPC/enemy backgrounds.

9 - What genres do you enjoy the most, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer of media? These can end up as very different things!

As a creator, D&D and fantasy. Things that let my imagination do its thing. As a consumer, it varies a lot.

10 - Any genres you actively avoid? Again, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer?

I don't care for sci-fi as a creator. I don't find high technological settings interesting and science tends to bore me. There's not much room for me to work. As a consumer, horror (it's rarely done right) and chick flicks, I guess?

[Merc]

1 - What are your general thoughts on tropes and cliches in writing? Always bad? Can be used for good? Don't worry about them and write whatever you want to write anyway? Something else entirely?

Like Dune said, it's unavoidable, and the important thing is how you use them.

I don't have any issues with tropes either, though I do hate when stories call themselves troperiffic, full of tropes, trope-fics, etc. I just think it's pretty dumb to do that, because any fic -anywhere- is going to have tropes/cliches because you can't avoid them.

Calling your stories that is an author pretty much saying "Look at my fic! Isn't it awesome?!?" and like an author disclaiming "This is my first fic, be nice." just makes me go "NOPE NOPE NOPE *alt tab*". It's lazy advertising.

2 - Do you have a favorite Face Heel Turn? Or just one you thought was particularly effective? More than one you think worth pointing out as good is fine!
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FaceHeelTurn

I wouldn't call it a favorite, and I barely even read the manga anymore, but I always thought Griffith going insane and sacrificing everything (mostly everything) to use the crimson behelit in Berserk was pretty well done. It's a crapsack world, and even the heroes aren't nice people, but the reason why it all happened is sad, and everything so quickly went from a golden era for them to the crappiest of crap.

3 - How about a Heel Face Turn?
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn

Dinobot from Beast Wars. He originally changes sides from bad guys to good out of lack of choice, he didn't respect the good guys and he thought the strong should lord over the weak (or just destroy them), but he had his honor and he could be trusted to some degree just because of that. Of course, he ocasionally switches sides back for one reason or another (usually manipulating his honor, sometimes some of his conflicted concerns over destiny and fate), making it hard for the good guys to truly trust him...and then he goes out in a spectacular way showing he HAD changed.

"Tell my tale to those who ask it. Tell it truly, the good and the bad, and let me be judged accordingly. The rest... is silence."

And I just loved that show in general anyway.

4 - And for the reverse, any egregiously bad examples of either of those you want to call out as being such?

A lot of comic book ones tend to be badly done, as it can just be a matter of a new writer fanboying over a character if they're turning them good (or loathing them if the reverse) and convincing his editor to let him through with something.

To name a few: Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) being turned into a brainwashed drug addict bad guy at one point for example. Guardians of the universe (Green Lantern blue guys) went pretty psycho out of nowhere. I was never a fan of Phil Urich turning into Hobgoblin or going insane. He was a good kid who tried hard to redeem the Green Goblin name after lucking out into a stash of equipment, and suddenly...psycho for hire!

5 - Another favorite of mine is the Five Man Band. Familiar with it? (before my link here, anyway)
Link: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand

5b - Do you have a favorite example of one? Or a role within it you tend to like characters of the most?

As someone who grew up watching stuff like Sailor Moon, Gatchaman, Voltron, and Power Rangers, yeah, I'm familiar with it. =p

Don't have a favorite one offhand, and as for role, probably Lancer.

You didn't ask for roles we don't like, but that one I could say: Not a fan of Rookie Red Ranger.

6 - On the subject of favorite tropes, do you have any you tend to like seeing?

7 - Any that just irritate you on principle?

As long as it's well handled, anything can be fine. I've seen good and bad examples of just about anything.

If I had to name anything that irritated me, well, as mentioned above, tropefics irritate me.

8 - Do you do any writing or creating of your own? Even if it's stuff you don't let people really see is fine. (I'd consider something like GMing for roleplaying games to count)

Yes, though not often anymore.

9 - What genres do you enjoy the most, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer of media? These can end up as very different things!

As a creator, I like fanfics' what if's/AUs and worldbuilding in general. As a consumer, it can vary. I'm normally not a fan of "Darker and Edgier", though I've found stuff that I've liked in the past of that type.

As both, I tend to enjoy both sci-fi and fantasy pretty evenly. Adventure/Drama would probably be my favorites 'universal' genres.

10 - Any genres you actively avoid? Again, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer?

As a creator, nope. Anything that strikes my fancy, I'll mess with for some time.

As a consumer, I typically avoid horror films/games, though I don't mind it as much with reading material.

[VySaika]

NOTE: Copy/pastaing this from the other board I posted this on. Which can be found here: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6497.0.html  if you care to read other people's outlooks. So I reference a couple things in my response here that weren't posted in this thread.

I'll put my own thoughts here.

1 - What are your general thoughts on tropes and cliches in writing? Always bad? Can be used for good? Don't worry about them and write whatever you want to write anyway? Something else entirely?

I phrased this vaguely, or "bafflingly" as Alex put it for a reason. I kinda wanted to see what the very words "tropes" and "cliches" meant to different folks. Enjoying the responses thus far, even the ones that are basically "fuck TV Tropes".

For me...I enjoy thinking about them, and TV Tropes is something I like as a resource or a place to read over things and go "huh, I never thought about that". But at the same time....I dislike how everything is so forcibly shoehorned into fitting into the designated tropes. The examples pages for the Five Man Band are particularly bad about that. IMO a large number of the ones listed don't really fit...but that's the nature of the beast. When anyone can input information, you get input from a lot of people who you disagree with.

For my own writing, I do analyze it after the fact with "hmm, what tropes/cliches might this easily and clearly fall under", but I don't worry about it. I just write what I want to write. Sometimes I will want a char to fill a specific role, and tropes are helpful there, but that's about the most thought I give them while I'm actively creating.

2 - Do you have a favorite Face Heel Turn? Or just one you thought was particularly effective? More than one you think worth pointing out as good is fine!

I really meant any sort of "good guy becomes bad" not just a sudden flip. So fall from grace types are perfectly acceptable!

For me, Orstead from Live a Live is one of my favorites. Extremely well done, especially for a silent main. How every last little thing his character was built on got shattered and his reaction to it just...worked for me.

3 - How about a Heel Face Turn?

Pro wrestling gets this one for me. I was big into watching WCW as a kid, and got super hyped when Billy Kidman went from this grungy member of Raven's Flock to shaking it off, cleaning up, and turning into a pretty dominant face in the cruiserweight division. He was my favorite wrestler for years.

Anubis from Ronin Warriors is another one I liked. Largely it was the moment where after he had gone face, the Ancient One gave him the helmet to his old armor back, and Anubis's line of "must I become that ogre again"(or something like it, it's been a long time) really stuck with me. The idea of the reformed villain picking his old power back up and this time having to fight against being corrupted by it. It was a powerful moment for the young me.

4 - And for the reverse, any egregiously bad examples of either of those you want to call out as being such?

Nice to see someone else pointed out the chairman from P3 before I got there. That was just bad. Jessie and James in the pokemon anime also...well, they never do full face turns, but every now and again they would do a temporary one. And suddenly become competent. And then go back to being bumbling goons again. Because Status Quo Is God. Which is terrible.

Honorable mention to Kain, of course.

5 - Another favorite of mine is the Five Man Band. Familiar with it? (before my link here, anyway)

Of course~ Ronin Warriors was the first anime I ever saw. Followed by Voltron. And Sailor Moon. It's a formative trope for me. However, see my above comment on how NOT EVERYTHING WITH FIVE OR MORE CHARS IS A FREAKING FIVE MAN BAND.

5b - Do you have a favorite example of one? Or a role within it you tend to like characters of the most?

Sailor Moon is a fun one, because in my opinion, the leader and main character...isn't the Hero. It's the Chick. Venus is the Hero, but shows up last. Before that, the scouts are being led by probably the least competent one to lead, which amuses me.
Disclaimer: I am only familiar with the dub which I am told is bad and should feel bad.

6 - On the subject of favorite tropes, do you have any you tend to like seeing?

A few spring to mind. I do enjoy The Godzilla Threshold when it's well done. When something has just crossed that line into "everything we can do to stop this is now justified", if I can buy it and it doesn't feel contrived, it really pulls me into the "shit is now real" territory.

I also like Find Me That Third Option. Again, when it's not contrived or dumb, when the hero can manage to avoid the lose-lose scenario by just doing something completely unexpected or drastic, I really enjoy it. I'm a sucker for the good guys winning in the end, but I do want it to be believable. Maybe not realistic, but believable.

And what shouldn't surprise anyone is that I'm a sucker for a LARGE HAM!

Thematically, SHOUTED ATTACK NAMES! is randomly something I really enjoy for no real reason. Spell quotes, badass one-liners in combat, etc. All great fun.

7 - Any that just irritate you on principle?

Status Quo Is God grates on me. I don't like things that don't change, I don't like series with no continuity. Episodic content where each episode is self contained is fine, but don't have character growth happen....then revert it by the end of the episode, or just ignore it next week, because you don't want to change anything. So much hate.

8 - Do you do any writing or creating of your own? Even if it's stuff you don't let people really see is fine. (I'd consider something like GMing for roleplaying games to count)

Of course. I do a ton of GMing and a fair amount of attempts at writing.

9 - What genres do you enjoy the most, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer of media? These can end up as very different things!

As a creator, I stick largely to DnD style fantasy, or science-fantasy. I do better with arcanobabble then I do with technobabble. I have been told I could give Nasu a run for his money when it comes to making weird arcane shit up.

As a consumer, I enjoy fantasy of most stripes, softer sci-fi and martial-arts stuff of all kinds. Also giant robots. Part of why I love G Gundam so much, it's kung fu giant robots with shouted attack names and generally crazy amounts of over the top-ness.

10 - Any genres you actively avoid? Again, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer?

If it can be described by "gritty" or "grimdark" I will usually shy away. I am secretly a 12 year old girl who likes happy ending and does not care for bad things happening to characters that I like. Bad things that get better or get resolved, that's cool. Lol another character dead because character death is so edgy and realistic guyz is poison to me(not arguing that it's not realistic. I'm saying I don't give a flying fuck about realism and keep it out of my fantasy plz).

Otherwise, I can enjoy hard sci-fi but if I need to actually understand the science or military stuff to "get" the fiction, I'm out.

And horror of most sorts is not my cup of tea.

[KLSymph]

1 - What are your general thoughts on tropes and cliches in writing? Always bad? Can be used for good? Don't worry about them and write whatever you want to write anyway? Something else entirely?

I consider tropes to be useful for communicating concepts and for thinking about story elements when writing, in a bottom-up fashion.  When reading or otherwise being the audience instead of the creator, I try to think about stories in a top-down fashion instead of analyzing elements at the trope level.

... Face Heel Turn? ... Heel Face Turn? (etc.)

Nothing comes to mind.  From a top-down perspective, it's all just character development to me.

...Five Man Band.

I can't remember the last time I saw an archetypal five-man band, except Power Rangers.

On the subject of favorite tropes, do you have any you tend to like seeing?

Spectacle tropes.  I love spectacle.  Not the most high-brow thing in the world, but hey, explosions.

Any that just irritate you on principle?

Demonization, bashing, Die For Our Ship, and all their ilk.  I despise the idea of disliking a character to the point of twisting that character into caricature.  This has actually become a problem because my antipathy for that practice means I can't easily create characters that readers are supposed to dislike even if it's necessary for a story.

Do you do any writing or creating of your own?

I write fanfiction very slowly.  Then I revise what I wrote because it's not very good, making my writing even more slow.

What genres do you enjoy the most, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer of media?

Fantasy and sci-fi, because there's spectacle.  I also enjoy the harem genre, mostly for the humor and escapism.  I used to like the darker, more angsty stuff but it's been hard to get into those works these days.

Any genres you actively avoid? Again, both as a creator(if you are one) and consumer?

Romance, or at least the stuff that bills itself as straight romance (I can't describe the harem genre as romance with a straight face).  Something about the romance genre tends to not click with me.  I suspect it's the formulaic combination of angst and sappiness in works I've seen, and because most romance fanfiction I've read is... guh.