Ippo - worst fight ever

[Dracos]

Just decided to drop mine and merc's yammering here.  Hajime used to be a pretty fantastic manga and show, but it basically is falling apart in a pretty terrible fashion at the moment.

-----------
<Merc> There's been a few good fights since Ippo became japanese champion, but mostly they've been Takamura's. Ippo's own fights in general since Sanada (and god, that was so long ago, I think I was still in college back when that fight occured) have varied from terrible to 'well, that was okay, I guess'. They basically nailed the problem with Ippo not having a goal to chase after way back since
<Merc> Miyata cancelled their match, but then never ever really expanded on giving him an actual motivation.
<Merc> And the closest they've gone to giving him a motivation with the improved dempsey roll/showing appreciation for coach has just been completely turned into a joke in this last fight.
<Merc> Biggest problem is the nature of the manga and time it takes to go through any fight that's longer than a single chapter tends to give reader fatigue, and I've about hit mine. Technically had hit it ages back, but I kept hoping for something better since it was such a great manga/show for me up to the Sanada fight. I hadn't thought the fight with Alfredo was too bad, and after Woli I had
<Merc> thought it was starting to get better, maybe he'd get motivated to go for world champion.
<Merc> But then this fight's turned into what it's turned into, so yeah, I think series is about dead to me.
<Dracos> Merc, yeah.
<Dracos> I was really hoping this would be a simple thing, getting into the flow for going to world champion.
<Dracos> the entire brain damaged thing was something that they built up over way too long a time that basically ruins the manga.
<Dracos> I dunno if they were going for an ashita no joe bit but it is just a plague to the notion.
<Dracos> and entirely blows away any sense of Ippo being a potential serious contender to anyone interesting they've introduced.
<Dracos> Miyata kind of puts it well: Nobody came there to see that shit.
* Dracos figured you'd say that, but wanted to kinda rant with someone else who understood.
<Dracos> It's like it's trying to lead up to an irrelevant retirement for the main character.
<Dracos> Whatever ambition the other characters had interwoven with Ippo is basically a mess.
<Merc> I always felt that the series had potential to go further given the note they ended the Date world fight on with the mom telling the son "Focus on his words. He's not ready -YET-" and we'd see some ups/downs on his road there...then Miyata cancelled their fight and the series went to shit as Ippo just lost all motivation of doing anything. Series really became more about Takamura getting
<Merc> the cool fights, with Ippo just...moving along.
<Dracos> Yeah.  I was looking forward to that too.
<Merc> And we hear about other characters having cool fights supposedly like Miyata, Volg and Sendo...but we don't see -their- fights either.
<Dracos> Figured the whole point was the setup for Ippo to followup and chase the mountain Date left behind.
<Dracos> They also have no problems and are just 'complete winbeasts' after their fight with Ippo.
<Dracos> Well, Miyata had trouble earlier on, but they kind of imply he rose past that.
<Merc> Honestly, Ippo's basically been turned into another Aoki/Kimura in that they had their one amazing fight to end their careers on...and then just kinda keep going.
<Dracos> yeah, except nobody was ever putting hopes in them going far.  ALso not the protagonist too. 
<Dracos> meeeeh.
<Dracos> hum
<Merc> Yeah, though I admit I always rooted for them getting better as well. Always felt like author just really likes Takamura most and after he started doing his fights he pretty much...well, he just gave all the good fights there. It's worth noting that we never had Takamura's fights in detail until AFTER Ippo's downward spiral.
<Dracos> you know the weirdest thing is the whole injury and collapse isn't really shonen type flavor at all.  I guess they just decided the audience must be old enough not to care.
<Dracos> Hmm, I thought the Hawk and Eagle fights were before that?
* Dracos may forget.
<Merc> Hawk was after Champion Road for sure.
<Merc> It was the last fight I saw of the 2nd season anime
<Merc> before I dropped anime.
<Dracos> I did root for them too.  But I kind of took for granted that the author liked to use them for comic relief.
<Dracos> so they'd always have the floor torn out from them.
<Merc> I tended to lean towards 'character development, yay!' hope. Alas.
<Dracos> Yeah, that would be awesome.
<Dracos> and would've been a much better way to break free of the shonen core it liked to keep.  "By the way, EVERYONE is a badass at this gym."
* Roku_ has quit (Quit: Quit)
<Dracos> "Yeah, sure they're kind of completely overshadowed by the front, but they're still quite conquering.'
* Roku (~Roku@99-132-73-158.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net) has joined
<Merc> I looked at a timeline of Ippo series, and Takamura's fights prior to Hawk were all against no names or 1-2 chapters tops.
<Dracos> hmm, I liked Takamura's later fights...  but yeah kinda not really an exchange for ippo.
<Merc> Before that, all of the good fights shown were Ippo outside of single fights for Date, Kimura/Mashiba, and Sendo.
<Merc> Aoki's championship fight was after Hawk, but for all that it was a good fight, it was also still sort of a joke fight.
<Merc> After Hawk, Ippo's fights consisted of...Shimabukuro (fisherman guy), Sawamura (sealed Dempsey Roll), Karasawa (don't even recall who), Take (super old guy), Jimmy Sisfa (Miyata's castoffs), Gedoh (magician guy), Woli, and Alfredo.
<Dracos> Woli of the super plot armor.
<Dracos> ape man can have even more plot armor
<Merc> And of those fights, the only ones I can say are close to memorable are Sawamura who was a worse asshole than Mashiba and Alfredo because it was where I thought he might start back on world champion route.
<Dracos> Yeah, really Alfredo was the first boxer for him to fight in a while.
<Dracos> and yeah, I really thought they were gonna take that angle with it.
<Dracos> not this shitty one.
<Dracos> Frustrating.
<Dracos> the serious problem with making the whole punch drunk thing real is it paints his whole gym as semi-incompetent and even Takamura as a giant asshole.
<Dracos> Karasawa I think was the guy who pissed ippo off to try and get a counter victory.
<Dracos> and succeeded, but 'ippo is too tough, didn't matter'
<Merc> ah
<Merc> yeah, I remember him now.
<Dracos> I think, at some point, the author just decided that all the aces he had Ippo beat early on really 'should' be better than Ippo.
<Dracos> and that wouldn't be shown by them fighting him but just totally leaving him behind.

[Dracos]

More blathering:
The fact that they're having Ippo sort of have a "I'm broken attack" during the fight with a national champion even paints his opponent as bad.  The rambling coach and the others make about his boxing being hugely off...should be just 'oh your defense is crap, BAM'

[Merc]

Well its finally over. It was every bit the disappointment everyone knew was coming.

RIP I don't see manga rising from the ashes of the depths its sunk itself down to.

[Merc]

I'm clearly a masochist. Saw more chapters release, and read through them.

I suppose I'm glad Ippo didn't...

Spoiler: ShowHide

...have brain damage and got medical proof he isn't actually punch drunk.

He still retired though, without ever actually fighting Miyata or meeting Date's son's hopes of avenging Date/becoming world champion.

Which, even knowing it was coming, still felt like a gut punch.

[Dracos]

Yeah, looked at a bit of it too.  Bleh them!