DM Nagging: It's pretty much my job

[Anastasia]

Yes, the slow build is a thing. I'll admit I'm sort of floundering on how to prioritize things, though. I'd like to get some more detailed info on the Regents; overview type stuff like their specialties and general opinions on things, so I can have an idea of how to approach things with them.

That's fine, I may prep up a post about that for Monday. I've mostly been filling in the numbers so far as we go, setting up since you have the most setup to do. You're starting from scratch, so this sort of thing is expected due to your concept. You wanted a guild, so I'm focusing on establishing personalities, political allegiances and personal opinions. Little things like Yorel's jab at Elaire and the rich says a lot about both of them, for example, without outright saying it.

I'm not sure what to do with Jarem and his people, really. It's kinda weird since they're just like... There... and I don't really have anyone to interact with other than just Jarem, and it's just been talking so far. I like the development that's happening, but I haven't really accomplished anything. I wanna start work on improving the Order, but that's kind of resource dependent, and I'm honestly not sure where the Order stands in that regard. Like, how many research groups do I have? What are they working on? What's my budget? I don't have a line on any of that.

Now a lot of the sausage making of your guild is likely to stay off screen. Really, you can assume they have the income to take care of anything basic that you need, while anything that's an improvement will need to be started and funded by you. Generally, for the sake of research and getting things done, you have enough people.

I need to figure out buffs I can get get from them, also. What spell ranges are we looking at and how many spells can I concievably get from them? What are the actual break downs of their numbers?

If you don't involve regents, 5th-6th level by members paying dues by directly helping out. Regents can go higher, a few even to 9th level, but none into epic magic.

Locking down an effective selection of spells for Alyssa is proving to be weird, now that I've had to revise her spells a couple times. I have to have things that buff defenses and also weapons, but her weapon selection isn't fantastic yet.

Yeah, growing pains are rough, no doubt about it. That's the sort of thing that firms up as you get experience with her, and you're gonna on the treasure ship. This is gonna be your tutorial dungeon, so to speak, so don't worry about it so much.

Lifedrinker is her best weapon, but it's easily negated since it's only a +1, and if anything is immune to negative levels, it's basically moot.

The other weapons haven't seen action yet (soon to be fixed), but Desiccating, while seeming good on the surface is only +1d4. 

Magebane will be a solid hit I think, though I'm quesitoning Shattermantle. The fact that it expires at the beginning of my next turn means that I won't be able to take advantage of it, though anyone who goes after me will. It's a toss up.

Corrosive will be solid, I think, at +1d6 damage. I think I might need to change up some of my enchantments, though I'm not sure what would be a good combo. I'm thinking I'm probably going to have to take the Improved Critical Feat somehow, but then I sorta get locked into a single weapon type. I recall seeing stuff about applying any weapon feat to all weapons, but I don't recall how to do it. I think it was Aptitude Enchantment? Kaorti resin is a thing, but that also requires specific Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

The spells that impact weapons are something I'm having to dig through. Sonic Weapon is a solid use of a low level slot for 1d6. Frost Weapon is something I've considered, another +1d6, but I'm unsure on relying on Cold damage. Brilliant Blade is a thing, but that's just for hitting purposes and not damage. Dolorous Blow is a solid choice, which I'm thinking will likely make a regular showing. Enlarge Weapon is a thing, too. I'm not really sure past that, though. Mostr of the other enchantments rely on a Fort save, which suuuuuuuccccks.

The only built-in fixes for this I see are going to Factotum and using Cunning Breach and Cunning Strike. Both are hard choices to rely on because of the low number of Inspiration I have, which means I need to get an Inspiring/Inspirational Surge Weapon. Both of those aren't great fixes as they are only +2 points or function off of a crit. They help, but they're not a reliable staple.

I think I need to get some Wands/Rods/Staffs to expand a bit, but that's money dependent.

Yes. Your weapon situation will naturally clarify itself with use, plus you'll likely find new weapons to use. I'll be interested to see how it hashes out there.

[Anastasia]

On a different note, how do Epic Spells listed on the SRD work? Like, if I wanted to take Greater Spell Resistance? Since we're starting at level 30, do I just get it in my spellbook? Are there any restricted Epic Spells from the SRD?

All of them are banned, as we use a different epic magic system. It's entirely possible to convert one though, feel free to point out any you want to take and we'll work it out. The power level on those spells varies wildly, so touch base with me and we'll see where it fits.

[Anastasia]

Bringing the SeirAvatar was a conscious choice. It obviously doubles my ability, letting me punch above my weight. Also, I wasn't certain whether I'd be able to flank properly in this situation, so that ensured I could bring my best powers to bear. Finally, I wanted to go all out at gamestart and see how I match against everything. Still undecided on that one, since Seira is pulling off neat stuff but not really on the level of the others, even with that effectively doubled power.

* Anastasia nods.

I'd say what you're pulling off is less a function of your power and more because you have the stealth part of the mission. Alicia's up there making lots of noise, so naturally gets some big guns pointed at her. It's one of those little paradoxes in life - if you were having to do the things Alicia was doing right now, it would mean your stealth mission went tits up. The fact that you've made it this far into Noir Jardin is impressive, even if it's not as obviously attention-getting as Alicia's work outside.

I'd be sad to see Mirror's Mimicry go. You can talk all you want about how we're intentionally outmatched, but if I can't even drown these superpowered assholes with numbers I'm left with very unsatisfying prospects. Space to grow, sure. Growing enough to casually bridge a +50 numerical gap that apparently exists between DvR1 and DvR5? And without even being able to choose items to fill in the gap? I really can't get past that. Also I kinda like how I can use a bunch of actions to chat on divine twitter mid-battle and other stuff with them, but that's just flavor.

I'm sure you can survive just fine without spamming half a dozen extra turns a round.

Okay, that being said, I think it's best to understand that you're attacking Hell - aka Plans and Preparations Unlimited. The boss's kids, no less, the boss who has a rep of being one of the best planners and preparers in Creation. Deities who prepare are fearsome as you've seen, and combine that with how Asmodeus and Hell tends to work? Things will work out, I got this, we got this. It's setting a tone for attacking Hell, it isn't meant to set a tone for everything going forward.

(It's worth noting that both Glasya and Lixer are over hit diced a bit at 45 hit dice. Glasya's mostly grown into divine rank to match, but Lixer has not for obvious reasons. That's contributing to them being powerful here, too. Again, nothing insurmountable with time and some growth on your end, but it's another reason why this is a hefty first challenge.)

A weak area I've discovered for Seira is the counterspelling business. I didn't consider how much of Jaela and Surru's competence came from a booster item, there. And of course even elite mooks facing me have higher CL than me  :(

A team of epic, Lixer empowered mages? Sure, they can reasonably compete. Same way your elite minions friends can compete, too. If someone attacked the Cauldron, I imagine Amaryl, Donald, Elle and everyone would be fighting with you. Same principle here, you're attacking Lixer's private holding when he's consolidating, so naturally he's going to have top of the line aides. 

The combat demo seems to have oversold me on the effectiveness of my spells against enemies. I've expended far more on the gate guards than against a nessian, and only whittled them down some. Not sure what it means for my magical lineup yet, but I do have melee to fall back on. Having the indoors fighting areas be too small for my dragon form was also a miscalculation I really should've seen ahead of time. Luckily, the Miracle SLA is tiding me over until alter reality goes from limited wish to wish, supplying some extra versatility like with delayed blast fireballs.

For clarity, what do you mean by the gate guards? The ones you fought in the first inner gate?

Anyway yeah, dragon form thing was one of those things that goes '...oh, that makes sense' as much as it sucks. Just an unfortunate conceit of where you're fighting.

Honestly, your sheer versatility helps patch a lot of situations and that's a good thing.

I wonder whether I could use Gate in a similar way to B3 where we could summon Aurora dudes with it. Like, anyone at my Node? Anyone currently at the Cauldron? It would be an interesting way to summon help as needed.

Funny story - I believe that usage of it was discussed in B1. I'd be fine with it.

[Ebiris]

A team of epic, Lixer empowered mages? Sure, they can reasonably compete. Same way your elite minions friends can compete, too. If someone attacked the Cauldron, I imagine Amaryl, Donald, Elle and everyone would be fighting with you. Same principle here, you're attacking Lixer's private holding when he's consolidating, so naturally he's going to have top of the line aides.

Just jumping in on this, it'd be a lot easier to take the epic elite liches seriously if they had some personality or threat beyond just being mobile spell turrets for Lixer. Where's his Abigor? Or... remember when we went into Hell to kill Agares in B1, and there was that epic charging devil we fought? Anyone that's able to fight on the level of Gods should have something theatrical about them to get us invested. So far Lixer's shown us 16 liches all of which seem to be more powerful than the Dark Six, but I couldn't tell you thing one about any of them.

I know you hated 4th edition with its lich minions at the epic tier, but that's exactly what we're seeing here.

[Corwin]

Yes, it's unfortunate that I don't get to shine in combat because that's a failure condition. Still, maybe I'll get another chance assaulting some other place which is not Hell.

That said, even if we assume Hell is overprepared and all that, if I were to attack any other place I'd still hit the same issues. Don't tell me Shar's minions would be a walk in the park compared to this. Yes, I know I can beat up some Prime Material pre-epic dudes. >_>

Incidentally, Lixer being Asmodad's kid didn't really help him when a few PCs from Aurora kicked his shit in repeatedly.

I think it's unfair in the extreme to compare named NPCs on the same level as Seira or Alicia and who are their friends as nameless mooks who share the same init and act in tandem. That makes them by definition mooks, even if elite ones. And since an elite team of them died to Alicia and another is destined to die to me and I bet there are more, they're either not using a similar Node mechanic with a much higher max capacity or are disposable, unlike my NPCs. In comparison, they'd be equal to my squad commanders, who are no doubt elite but aren't even in the minor allies thread and don't have the same firepower as my NPCs.

The gate guards were the ones at the inner gate, yes. Melee worked fine on them; the spells I was sure were overwhelming against regular dudes, not so much. Will revise accordingly.

I am fairly versatile, yes. Seira is very much a jack of all trades.

[Anastasia]

Latha is very much a downside right now, her passivity and requirement to be told what to do/double check with Alicia every round is becoming aggravating. Feels like I've brought Rei Ayanami along for the ride. Hopefully she'll get her head together with some downtime character stuff, yeah. Donald is hitting his marks perfectly, for good and ill. Sulia feels kinda quiet, and this is her first actual combat outing so I feel she could be doing more to make a solid impression.

Agreed about Latha. I feel like she connected best to you not in combat, but in discussions in your down time. I think that's what she needed over combat. She's a supporter, an advisor, a moral compass. She can fight but it was always rooted in that, and without it I feel like something's missing. I'm confident it will resolve itself, going to push that next week and when you hit downtime, though.

Sulia's just been overshadowed by Glasya and Donald, as well as mostly being off screen. That's another todo over the next week. I think she got lost more due to being so busy, she needs those moments quite a lot. She had some banter with Glasya which was a step in the right direction.

The big set piece battle was pretty great, wading through hordes of devils, catching Lixer's avatar in a trap and taking him out before he could do anything, felt satisfying. I remember in B3 when Muirfinn went to the Abyss with Antenora and they were just slaughtering demons by the bucketload and I was totally jealous, so it's nice to be getting into that vibe.

One of the reasons I treat group rules the way I do is exactly for that. I've always wanted Balmuria combat to be about champions and heroes, powerful entities more akin to comic books or myths than army battles. Not that armies don't have a place, but the way I execute running larger groups intentionally encourages this.

Things stalled out pretty hard when I engaged Glasya unfortunately - before it felt like I was making a difference keeping Lixer occupied, steadily pushing in with the aim of attacking the fortress directly and ensuring Seira could do her business without much attention on her. Now Glasya's got us completely tangled up and Lixer hasn't been involving himself in our side of it so feels like the objective failed there.

Glasya's meant to be a huge roadblock, yeah. Not an impossible one, but definitely a challenge to find a way to deal with her.

The trash talk is good but you can see it sputter out a bit during the Glasya fight as well. Started out riding high on life and throwing down the gauntlet to Lixer as a real 'welcome to the big leagues' sort of thing, but that's been completely turned around now I'm up against someone who's been in the top tier a lot longer than Alicia. It feels like Glasya's just having fun fooling around while we're struggling to keep our heads above water, so the banter's having to walk a line of not sacrificing my pride and keeping Glasya engaged without either infuriating her so she goes wild on us or boring her so she just kills us without dragging it out.

Pretty much, it's been interesting to me on account of it.

About the only way I can see of killing Glasya now is coordinating a time-stop with my avatar then opening a gate next to Glasya so Avatarlicia can five foot step through and unload a fully buffed smite/moment of prescience/vivacious flux grasp full attack on her. Even[q then the avatar's got about minus five to hit on Alicia, and that's probably enough for her to end up missing short of twenties. Either way I don't really want to use that tactic because it'd open the door for it to be used against us, and Glasya has a lot more avatars.

To touch on the avatar talk in Seira's post, that's another reason I want to discourage bringing avatars along. It starts becoming more and more a thing, which means it happens against you and becomes a huge hassle. I don't think that's gameplay any of us want. I'd really rather not make a rule about it as I said, but if I need to I will.

So yeah, basically stalling now and hoping Seira does her part, but every turn I'm weaker than the last so can only hold out so long.

A heroic stand in Hell against vast odds? Welcome to being a Paladin in Hell. It's a nice call back to the Hall of the Vanquished, one that Alicia should write a better ending to this time.

As far as mechanics go, we talked about it in chat and PM. I don't feel Alicia's terribly well optimised since I took a fairly straightforward build with the only dipping being those two fighter levels so I would have enough feats for the TWF chain, and Alicia's numbers are lagging behind Seira's in basically all aspects, but being able to kill anything she full attacks is what she was built for and so losing that would leave me with no interesting gimmicks to have fun with. And as we're already seeing, once she burns through her high level spell slots she can't really sustain that performance.

I agree. I just think there's a place where you're dealing worthy damage with an FA, one where you aren't dropping 4-5k damage a turn.

I mean I could drop the double-bladed sword again and then I'd have half the attacks and thus half the damage, and that'd still probably kill stuff pretty well - the potential damage number is impressive but also overkill and thus wasted anyway. But considering how many kung fu bears/dragons we've seen pumping out over a dozen attacks a round in previous games, it feels a bit harsh to be penalised when the TWF regime is already so costly in terms of feats and penalties to attack.

The number of attacks isn't the problem anyway. It's the channeling, and if I do take action against it, it'll be from that angle. Frankly I don't think you'd be broken with 12 or even 14 attacks if you weren't channeling like you are now. Your damage is good and reasonably in line otherwise, arcane channeling is just -that- good the way you've built.

Regardless I'm going to see how the adventure goes before making( any decisions. I'm more inclined to gently correct as needed in game than ban if I can, as I expect a high power level here. (Mirror's Mimicry is an exception. I meant to mention this in Seira's post and forgot, but I had misgivings about that spell before this game and wasn't using in on account of that.)

[Anastasia]

A team of epic, Lixer empowered mages? Sure, they can reasonably compete. Same way your elite minions friends can compete, too. If someone attacked the Cauldron, I imagine Amaryl, Donald, Elle and everyone would be fighting with you. Same principle here, you're attacking Lixer's private holding when he's consolidating, so naturally he's going to have top of the line aides.

Just jumping in on this, it'd be a lot easier to take the epic elite liches seriously if they had some personality or threat beyond just being mobile spell turrets for Lixer. Where's his Abigor? Or... remember when we went into Hell to kill Agares in B1, and there was that epic charging devil we fought? Anyone that's able to fight on the level of Gods should have something theatrical about them to get us invested. So far Lixer's shown us 16 liches all of which seem to be more powerful than the Dark Six, but I couldn't tell you thing one about any of them.

I know you hated 4th edition with its lich minions at the epic tier, but that's exactly what we're seeing here.

That's a fair point. To be fair I was hoping Seira would drop a Knowledge check on that and go into them that way, but I think it's mostly on me.

I'll note combat situation and hectic, blah blah blah, but you're not wrong.

Part of is shoestringing this adventure a bit, I didn't focus much on Lixer in pre game prep since I wasn't expecting this day one. But you're right and it's something I can shore up in the fights ahead.

I think that explains something from my end too, so thanks. Hadn't put it together.

[Ebiris]

The numbers is what really sells them on being generic and this irrelevant. You're having them act on the same init for coordinated spells anyway, so replacing them with a solitary lich lieutenant that you could invest more character into would be great. Like even if any of them try talking now or whatever, they're just part of a crowd. But if it was one dude and he got some cool description about how gross and gnarly he looks and he lays out some sick burns and then Seira actually thinks 'Who the fuck is this guy?' and rolls a knowledge check and gets told 'He's a real piece of shit that's who he is!' it becomes that much more exciting and now she's got a serious threat to contend with and some motivation to kill him beyond the fact that he's standing in her way.

[Anastasia]

Yes, it's unfortunate that I don't get to shine in combat because that's a failure condition. Still, maybe I'll get another chance assaulting some other place which is not Hell.

That said, even if we assume Hell is overprepared and all that, if I were to attack any other place I'd still hit the same issues. Don't tell me Shar's minions would be a walk in the park compared to this. Yes, I know I can beat up some Prime Material pre-epic dudes. >_>

Shar's also noted to be powerful in general and annoying so. I concede the point in that case but point to previously established things so I can just go >_> instead.

Incidentally, Lixer being Asmodad's kid didn't really help him when a few PCs from Aurora kicked his shit in repeatedly.

Less reason to invest. As big as a thing as Aurora was, Lixer wasn't Lord of the First yet. Asmodeus has more reasons to support him now. It's one thing for Lixer to get set back in a private quarrel with an enemy of Hell.  It's another for the Lord of the First to get bitched around. It becomes a political issue for him.

I think it's unfair in the extreme to compare named NPCs on the same level as Seira or Alicia and who are their friends as nameless mooks who share the same init and act in tandem. That makes them by definition mooks, even if elite ones. And since an elite team of them died to Alicia and another is destined to die to me and I bet there are more, they're either not using a similar Node mechanic with a much higher max capacity or are disposable, unlike my NPCs. In comparison, they'd be equal to my squad commanders, who are no doubt elite but aren't even in the minor allies thread and don't have the same firepower as my NPCs.

With my comment to Eb first as a note, you aren't wrong. It's just I honestly haven't done a good job at presenting them as what they are. That's a to do over the week, flush them out more (assuming they don't die super fast) and bear it in mind for the future.

In retrospect I should have probably delayed this adventure a little longer, I think it needed a little more ramp up since I was prepping this on the fly. That's not on either of you, really.

The gate guards were the ones at the inner gate, yes. Melee worked fine on them; the spells I was sure were overwhelming against regular dudes, not so much. Will revise accordingly.

I recall you opened with spells that softened them so that melee cleaned up. Could've been vice-versa easily enough.

I am fairly versatile, yes. Seira is very much a jack of all trades.

It shows and works fairly well.

[Anastasia]

The numbers is what really sells them on being generic and this irrelevant. You're having them act on the same init for coordinated spells anyway, so replacing them with a solitary lich lieutenant that you could invest more character into would be great. Like even if any of them try talking now or whatever, they're just part of a crowd. But if it was one dude and he got some cool description about how gross and gnarly he looks and he lays out some sick burns and then Seira actually thinks 'Who the fuck is this guy?' and rolls a knowledge check and gets told 'He's a real piece of shit that's who he is!' it becomes that much more exciting and now she's got a serious threat to contend with and some motivation to kill him beyond the fact that he's standing in her way.

Yeah, that's good and on base. In retrospect that would've been better. Dunno why I didn't do that in prep. I'll remember that down the road, I'll chalk it up to the comments about this adventure needing more time in the oven in retrospect. Some of the side things show that I got a little surprised by this one.

I'm not happy about this, but it's also okay. First adventures are learning for everyone, even the DM. Even if the lesson is 'slow them down when they decide to go off script first thing so you can get your shit together', but hindsight and all that.

[Iron Dragoon]

Iddy, buy Cauldron Steel! We have the best weapons! Made by a genuine gnome! For an extra +2, we'll throw in the best enchantment, too! It revolutionizes the energy damage field!

Cor! Send a caravan to me! I don't know you exist!

[Anastasia]

Iddy, buy Cauldron Steel! We have the best weapons! Made by a genuine gnome! For an extra +2, we'll throw in the best enchantment, too! It revolutionizes the energy damage field!

Cor! Send a caravan to me! I don't know you exist!

This is a good thing and can be a way for you two to interact a bit. I'll see about bringing it up or having a reference to nudge you, it's a good plot point.

[Iron Dragoon]

This is a good thing and can be a way for you two to interact a bit. I'll see about bringing it up or having a reference to nudge you, it's a good plot point.

I've been thinking about this, too. Dana's from my prime, so there's an easy drop for Yuth, and I remember seeing someone's NPC with a weapon that has Shaundakul's name in it, so there's another one.

[Anastasia]

Yes. You're all independent nodes any which way, but reasons to occasionally touch base and interact are good.

[Iron Dragoon]

All of them are banned, as we use a different epic magic system. It's entirely possible to convert one though, feel free to point out any you want to take and we'll work it out. The power level on those spells varies wildly, so touch base with me and we'll see where it fits.

I was looking at a handful, and I'm guessing most are banned.

Ruin/Greater Ruin (maybe banned?), Kinetic Control, Raise Island (Which you mentioned), Epic Spell Reflection (probably banned), Greater Spell Resistance.