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ECB v Angel from Hell

Started by Dracos, August 23, 2003, 12:12:17 PM

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Dracos

Attachments not working but I'm flinging the formatted version of this up here.  I'll be putting it on the FFML as well in a few hours but just a quick first go to see if the dozens of eyes here catch an error my eyes missed.

http://pishoque.net/soulriders/ECB%20Files/ECBvsTenshif.txt : Evil Commentary Bureau versus Angel from Hell

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Edward

You have some formatting problems.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECB: A solid start, save for one thing: "Why?" ECBTenshi: Mwahahaha,
I am going to enter a small and likely poor restaurant and contemplate
ways I can sabotage it just because!  Look at me, I'm a rat!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'ECBTenshi:' should start another line.

The same problem occurs multiple times in the following section.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ECB: In a district in Tokyo?  And of course, there is no one like
Kasumi around who makes their own food.  And why would a con-man set up
for a long term job with the local Yakuza after him? ECBTenshi:
"It's just for the excitement!  After all, I can make more money if I
have to deal with hiding from crimelords and evading bullets when
trying to make a pitch at a fast food joint." ECBRealLife: And a part
time resturant owner wouldn't laugh at the concept of being the only
food supplier for about a half million people? ECBMangafan: "Wait,
Wait, brilliant.  Let's have Ukyo put her friends out of business
as well.  She'd naturally love the concept!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also should be 'restaurant' not 'resturant'

And fear the dreaded blank line.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I gotta admit, this isn't the kind of work I usually do. Taking out
somebody's business competitors is one thing. But helping you catch

a husband...." Sure, he was used to trying to win his way with the
ladies, but he'd never had to succeed with any particular one. He'd
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from it because it's so obvious she's going to live through it.  On the
opposing side, that it might be done for comic effect, that's thrown

right out because it's clearly not written to be funny here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And some suggestions for possible added lines.

ECBUkyouFan:  Ukyou is supermodel level gorgeous?  Since when?
ECB:  The Evil Commentary Bureau does not insist fanfic authors portray Ranma characters in the same way Rumiko Takashi portrayed them, merely that the author be consistent in their portrayals.
ECBChecker:  Which this author fails to do.  No character in the fic treats Ukyou as a superbabe, including Tenshi, the character who made the assessment.
ECBCommonSense:  But it is a rather obvious attempt to hide the fact this fic is an anti-Ukyou rant.

>sure enough, Little Miss Restaurant Owner got one look at him and lit
>up like a game machine that somebody had just put a coin in.

ECB: So you do know how to capitalize proper nouns.  How come you missed it all the other times?

>"All right, then," she said, obvious unease coloring her voice. *Little
>miss high-and-mighty,* he thought with a chuckle

ECB:  Again the proper nouns cry because you have ignored them.

>"Now then, Mister Saotome, I expect your dialog in this play to be
>fully and completely memorized by tomorrow's rehearsal time at
>oh-sixteen hundred.

ECB: Can I just copy-paste my response to your previous misuse of military time?

>"One of our dramatic personnel is currently AWOL, sir. Miss Kuonji
>was due here at oh-nineteen-fifty hours

ECB: Can I just copy-paste my response to your previous misuse of military time?

>"Ran-chan, you'd better listen to what he has to say!" said Ukyo, who
>had come in with Konatsu while the film was running.

ECBContinuity:  And who let them in if everyone is watching the film?

>The character Tenshi was inspired by Stuart Margolin's "Angel" on "The
>Rockford Files," hence his name -- though as I started plotting the
>story, Tenshi developed in a somewhat different direction.

ECBRockfordFan:  Stuart Margolin portrayed a cowardly conman who was funny and vaguely sympathetic.  Bringing him up wasn't your brightest move, since Tenshi is an abject failure in both areas.
If you see Vampire Hikaru Shidou, it is Fox.  No one else does that.  You need no other evidence." - Dracos

"Huh? Which rant?" - Gary

"Do not taunt Happy Fun Servitor of the Outer Gods with your ineffective Thompson Submachine Gun." - grimjack

Dracos

Yeah, I noticed.  A reformatted version will be going up soon enough.

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Edward

I do have one complaint about this ECB.  It lacks the vigor and venom of most of the other ECBs; it feels too polite.  Perhaps that was necessary for posting of the fanfiction mailing list, but I feel some of the funny was lost because of it.
If you see Vampire Hikaru Shidou, it is Fox.  No one else does that.  You need no other evidence." - Dracos

"Huh? Which rant?" - Gary

"Do not taunt Happy Fun Servitor of the Outer Gods with your ineffective Thompson Submachine Gun." - grimjack

Dracos

That is without a doubt.  It's looking like that was a one time affair though as I have little desire to really tone it down for that environment with any regularity.

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

thepanda

I cannot load it. >_<

/me has to wait for the official release.

Dracos

Link Fixed.  File editted.  Putting up responses now.

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Dracos

From: Denise Cameron <denisecameron@eastlink.ca>

> ECB: Ranma... needs to box his food and carry it out?  Since when?  He
> eats like a speed demon on steroids.  And he's been in there, what,
> two-three minutes?
> ECBRanma: Come on, I'm late for a fight and superspeed food isn't quite
fast
> enough!
>
- That's true enough, but it's obvious that he's there to get food for more
then just him. Since the spat between him and Akane apparently ruined their
dinner, he's probably getting okonomiyaki for Akane to eat as well (though
what the rest of the Tendo residence is doing for food, I don't know. Maybe
Kasumi is making food for them, but Ranma and Akane have been banned from
the kitchen and dining room for the night.)

-It's not completely out of character, he has bought things for her before.
Ranma and Akane get food for each other on several occasions (and Ranma
actually eats it, if it's obvious that Akane didn't cook it), though I think
you might have a point with the part where he asks Ukyo if he should get
Akane chocolates or flowers.

> ECB: 19:50 hours, in military time that's 8 pm.  Just setting the clock
> here.  And what's with the extraneous "oh-" in reciting the time?
> That's normally there for the zero, not when it's after ten O'clock.
>

- Picky note. That's actually 7:50pm ^-^ Here's a hint for anyone who
doesn't have to deal with military time in their daily lives: if the time is
13:00 to 24:59, simply subtract 12:00 from the number. For example, 22:45 -
12:00 = 10:45pm.


> "--over sixty hours late. Bloody--" For a moment, honorable suicide
> seemed like a favorable option to Tsumaranai. "Can't we get someone
> else to take the part?"
>
> ECB: Sixty Hours?  No one noticed a lead actor being gone for sixty
> hours?  3 days?  Where was she anyway?  The cops kept her... overnight?
> For three nights?  And no one noticed a thing.  No one called.  No one
> paid any attention.
> ECBTypopolice: I think he might have meant 'six' hours, sir!
> ECB: Ah, but in that case the play would be running right now at 2 am.
> No school play ever runs at 2 am.  It would naturally remove 95 percent
> of their customer base and designated audience to do so.  So, even if it
> is a typo for six, it's still retarded.
> ECB: Get your coffee!  Late Night School Play!  See it at dawn!

- Okay, I know that when you are doing a mockery of a fic (also known as
MiSTing, to those who watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000), it is very
tempting to make the author look like an idiot at any given interval. But
did it not occur to you that the author maybe meant to write sixty minutes,
here? Picking at an error like this and ignoring all but the obvious
solution (that the writer probably meant to write minutes, not hours) just
makes it look like you're having a hard time coming up with things to pick
at.

*ECB Response*
> > ECB: Ranma... needs to box his food and carry it out?  Since when?  He
> > eats like a speed demon on steroids.  And he's been in there, what,
> > two-three minutes?
> > ECBRanma: Come on, I'm late for a fight and superspeed food isn't quite
>fast
> > enough!
> >
>- That's true enough, but it's obvious that he's there to get food for more
>then just him. Since the spat between him and Akane apparently ruined their
>dinner, he's probably getting okonomiyaki for Akane to eat as well (though
>what the rest of the Tendo residence is doing for food, I don't know. Maybe
>Kasumi is making food for them, but Ranma and Akane have been banned from
>the kitchen and dining room for the night.)
>
>-It's not completely out of character, he has bought things for her before.
>Ranma and Akane get food for each other on several occasions (and Ranma
>actually eats it, if it's obvious that Akane didn't cook it), though I
>think
>you might have a point with the part where he asks Ukyo if he should get
>Akane chocolates or flowers.

2 Okonomiyaki's do not serve the entire tendo family.  Nor do I really see
him bringing her food to make up with her.  If he had a spat over food, and
brought her a rival fiancee's food...she'd get more angry (rightfully so).  
It's more of an indication that he's hungry.  Especially as we see him in
the series chow down on those like they are barely there.

>
> > ECB: 19:50 hours, in military time that's 8 pm.  Just setting the clock
> > here.  And what's with the extraneous "oh-" in reciting the time?
> > That's normally there for the zero, not when it's after ten O'clock.
> >
>
>- Picky note. That's actually 7:50pm ^-^ Here's a hint for anyone who
>doesn't have to deal with military time in their daily lives: if the time
>is
>13:00 to 24:59, simply subtract 12:00 from the number. For example, 22:45 -
>12:00 = 10:45pm.

Yes, I rounded for simplicity.  Which should be obvious by the context of
the comment ^^;

>
>
> > "--over sixty hours late. Bloody--" For a moment, honorable suicide
> > seemed like a favorable option to Tsumaranai. "Can't we get someone
> > else to take the part?"
> >
> > ECB: Sixty Hours?  No one noticed a lead actor being gone for sixty
> > hours?  3 days?  Where was she anyway?  The cops kept her... overnight?
> > For three nights?  And no one noticed a thing.  No one called.  No one
> > paid any attention.
> > ECBTypopolice: I think he might have meant 'six' hours, sir!
> > ECB: Ah, but in that case the play would be running right now at 2 am.
> > No school play ever runs at 2 am.  It would naturally remove 95 percent
> > of their customer base and designated audience to do so.  So, even if it
> > is a typo for six, it's still retarded.
> > ECB: Get your coffee!  Late Night School Play!  See it at dawn!
>
>- Okay, I know that when you are doing a mockery of a fic (also known as
>MiSTing, to those who watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000), it is very
>tempting to make the author look like an idiot at any given interval. But
>did it not occur to you that the author maybe meant to write sixty minutes,
>here? Picking at an error like this and ignoring all but the obvious
>solution (that the writer probably meant to write minutes, not hours) just
>makes it look like you're having a hard time coming up with things to pick
>at.

Actually, this fic suffered from the reverse, with every single prereader
for this finding something else I missed in the initial pass through.  
Anyhow, you pointed out an option I didn't even think of.  Technically,
typo'ing the number is understandable, it's a single extra key and it
happens.  It's not good, but it happens.  Typo'ing the written word on the
other hand is odd.  One doesn't expect to just see someone use the
completely wrong time word there.  Especially as 60 minutes is an odd usage
in writing.  It's far more commonly 'an hour' (or in this case 'more than an
hour late').  Given that he's indicating that it's more than that time
bracket, using minutes just seems entirely awkward there.
*end ECB response*

<< Goofed there slightly.  Forgot that both were written.  Even so, the sixty is the more likely error... Gary though corrects us both...in a humourous bit of idiocy.

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Dracos

Gary Response to time debate:
>- Okay, I know that when you are doing a mockery of a fic (also known as
>MiSTing, to those who watch Mystery Science Theatre 3000), it is very
>tempting to make the author look like an idiot at any given interval. But
>did it not occur to you that the author maybe meant to write sixty minutes,
>here? Picking at an error like this and ignoring all but the obvious
>solution (that the writer probably meant to write minutes, not hours) just
>makes it look like you're having a hard time coming up with things to pick
>at.

Actually, it's not a mistake. The veep was simply joking. He's annoyed
by the coach's inappropriate use of military time and is being a
smartass by twisting the concept of so many "hundred hours" as if it
meant what it literally says.


*End*

I have to admit.  This caught me offguard.  One rarely expect someone to say the guy who is stressing and considering suicide is joking about.  Never ended up responding to this comment but it stands on it's own stupidity.

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Dracos

From Gary Kleppe <gary@garykleppe.org> :
>  Greetings and welcome to another session of the Evil Commentary
>Bureau.

Have there been previous ones? I must've missed them.

>  The author shall be allowed a single response sent to the email:
>dracos12@hotmail.com.  We apologize for not being able to provide

The author will decide for himself (subject to the mailing list rules,
of course) what he is and isn't allowed, thank you.

>ECB: A solid start, save for one thing: "Why?" ECBTenshi: Mwahahaha,
>I am going to enter a small and likely poor restaurant and contemplate
>ways I can sabotage it just because!  Look at me, I'm a rat!

It's called professional curiosity. As a web programmer, when I visit a
site I often take note of what sort of technology it uses, even though I
don't work for the site in question.

>ECB: Because people dressed in an eccentric fashion that advertises
>their store are obviously just the hired help.

Ever been to a MacDonald's? Ronald doesn't own the place. Neither do the
people in the fancy uniforms. Granted this attitude is more appropriate
for American restaurants; the unintentional Americanization in this is a
problem which other people have pointed out and I intend to try to
address whenever I get around to revising this fic.

>  You build up a small
>amount of confusion here in Tenshi that doesn't add anything and just
>seems silly.  Anyone so 'knowledgable' to feel confident in shutting
>down a place at a glance would certainly be perceptive enough to spot
>the owner acting in the classic fashion for owners of those types of
>resturaunts.

For one thing, there's a difference between feeling knowledgable and
actually *being* knowledgeable. For another, the latter doesn't
guarantee that one won't make mistakes. The primary purpose of this bit
is to show that Tenshi *does* make mistakes and at least in that sense
is not the classic Annoying New Character.

>Especially when the waitress had the face and body that a guy doesn't
>forget.
>
>ECB: Yet he needed a second look to describe her?

Huh?

>"Gimme the deluxe," he said. "And a beer. And tell the owner that I'd
>like to have a word with her." He nodded toward the woman in the
>kimono, obviously the owner, who stood on the other side pouring tea
>for another customer.
>
>ECBTenshi: "Look at me.  I come into a fast-food resturaunt where the
>only visible workers in the place are high schoolers and order beer."
>ECB: But if it isn't served there, why would it be on the menu or
>wherever he pulled 'deluxe' out of to be ordered?
>ECBTenshi: "Bah, who needs such things as menus.  I'm building my
>character!"

In my experience, people rarely look at drink menus unless they're
ordering a cocktail or something like that. It's not uncommon for people
to order Coke and be told that the restaurant serves Pepsi instead.

>ECB: And the teenage 'girl' in the threadbare kimono is obviously the owner
>over the
>the more confidant and assertive person taking your orders?

Now you're just pulling things out of nowhere. Who says that Konsatsu's
kimono is threadbare, or that he's any less "confidant" and assertive
with the customers?

>ECB: Why in the world would anyone go after a hole in the wall
>fast-food joint with that type of offer?  That's almost as bad as
>walking up to the guy selling food out of his cart and asking him if
>he'd be willing to pay to have the nearby resturants taken out of
>commission.  It's a silly offer, especially to what is clearly a
>teenager.

Well, why would a traveling salesman sell magical paper dolls to
Gosunkugi, when there'd be lots of people who could and would pay more
for them. Why would Ryoga manage to find a love-fishing rod in a
department store, when all the other characters who would obviously like
to get their hands on one can't? I don't see why the premise here is any
less believable than a lot of what happens in the original series.

>She flashed a patronizing smile. "I don't think I could handle that
>much business, sugar."
>
>ECB: Reasonably patronizing, though the lead up for it doesn't make
>sense.  Nor does his quick entrance and immediate throwing of his pitch
>without even taking time to assess the resturant beyond a brief glance.
>I mean, sheesh, you paint this guy as both incompetent beyond belief
>and capable of examining and analyzing targets in the restaurant
>with a glance.  You just rush right in without taking any time to build
>the atmosphere.

Though I think you're overstating the case and you know it, it's true
that he is both incompetent and capable. Welcome to the Ranmaverse. It's
the same place where someone can be smart enough to learn complex
martial arts moves but can't follow even the simplest of directions. Or
strong enough to survive being slammed into a rock wall but not enough
to avoid being knocked out by a falling coconut.

>"How'd you like to be the only game in town? To be able to raise your
>prices as high as you like, and leave people with no choice but to eat
>here?"
>
>ECB: In a district in Tokyo?

In one particular neighborhood of that district.

>  And of course, there is no one like
>Kasumi around who makes their own food.

There are, but restaurant owners generally don't consider them to be
competition. Unless they're self-insert characters, strangers don't
often decide to drop in at the Tendos' becase the prices at Ucchan's are
too high.

>  And why would a con-man set up
>for a long term job with the local Yakuza after him?

One particular group of thugs, who may or may not be Yakuza (Tenshi says
they are, but he isn't exactly a reliable source) is after him. He
doesn't expect to run into them in this neighborhood.

> ECBTenshi:
>"It's just for the excitement!  After all, I can make more money if I
>have to deal with hiding from crimelords and evading bullets when
>trying to make a pitch at a fast food joint." ECBRealLife: And a part
>time resturant owner wouldn't laugh at the concept of being the only
>food supplier for about a half million people?

She might if that were the actual offer, yes.

BTW, in the event you do more of these commentaries, for readability's
sake you might want to consider skipping a line between each virtual
speaker's comments.

>ECB: Ranma has big muscles?  Anyhow, nice analogy, though this is
>probably the most observation skills you've given this putz so far.
>ECBLogictrain: *Beep Beep* There's a tree in the road.
>ECB: It's observant actually to the point of disbelief.  He manages to see
>Ranma's ass when he's lumbering in and towards them?  How?  Did he have
>a mirror set up behind Ranma?

Who said Ranma was making a direct bee line to Ukyo? That tends to be
hard to do in a restaurant.

>Glancing back at Tenshi, the waitress flipped an okonomiyaki in his
>direction. It slid across the counter, stopping precisely in front of
>him. "Enjoy, sugar. Then leave. I don't think we can do business."
>
>ECB: Who would eat an okonomiyaki that was flipped off the grill, onto
>the counter, and then slid across it to stay in front of them... with
>no plate?
>
>ECBUkyo: But I serve all my okonomiyaki fresh off the counter
>without plates.  The sink is just decoration.

Again, I think you're trying to apply a higher standard of realism here
than in the original series. The image of sliding an okonomiyaki across
the bar like a glass of beer in an old Western was, in my opinion,
amusing enough to include, and not any more unbelievable than much of
what goes on in the manga.

>"Hey, Ucchan!" pretty boy called. "Is my food ready yet? I gotta get
>goin'!"
>
>ECB: The usage of proper nouns escapes you, doesn't it?

Evidently it escapes one of us. See Peter Ahlstrom's response in this
thread.

>"Um... yeah, Ran-chan." The giant spatula swung into action. "I'll just
>box it up for you."
>
>ECB: Ranma... needs to box his food and carry it out?  Since when?  He
>eats like a speed demon on steroids.

Got a cite from the manga for this? I can't remember him speed-eating
without a specific reason for it, and I can think of plenty of scenes
that show him eating normally.

>ECB: You know, there's something off about this whole scene.  It rubs
>one wrong not so much from a Make Sense angle but more the: "Who is
>this guy and what did he do with Ranma?"  Ranma shows countless
>times in the series that he doesn't make up unless prodded to.

Who says he wasn't prodded?

>Especially with minor spats.  And Ukyo doesn't try to capitalize
>on it at all?  GO SPINELESS FIANCEE!

What exactly do you expect her to do?

>ECB: You know, I can't follow this logic leap.  It makes no sense.
>She knows he's an obvious con-man, but how she gets from: "I offer to
>wreck your business competition" to "Hey, I'm a master of romantic
>intrigue and can get rid of your rivals" without any prodding from the
>departing con-man is beyond me.  I mean sheesh, it's like assuming
>because Ranma could physically protect someone, that he's the guy to
>hire to do your math homework.  The leap makes no sense.

Actually, it's your analogy which makes no sense. The same basic skills,
or at least a good portion of them, apply to convincing customers to
switch restaurants as to convincing a person to switch his love
interest. There are no skills in common between hitting people and
hitting the math books.

As to your point, yes, I could have spent more time developing Ukyo's
reasons for putting her faith in this guy. I chose not to, because I
wanted to get on with the story and showing the *consequences* of her
decision, and because generally people didn't have a problem with it.
It's been nearly a year and a half since this fic was released, before
which it was previewed in various one-hour challenges, and nobody but
you (and/or your anonymous collaborators) have expressed a problem with
this leap. So I'm really going to have to hear some fresh opinions
before changing it.

>  Even worse,
>it makes him trying it again as your ending seem like you forgot he was
>leery of it in the first place!

Um... come again? Even allowing for the grammatical errors, I can't tell
what you were trying to say here.

>ECB: And again we ask, why is he taking the job?  There is obviously
>not money in it.  It even goes against his whole mentality above.  Why

What are you talking about? Of course there's money in it. He's a
mercenary, and as such is going to work for whoever is willing to hire
him.

>ECB: Why is she fixated on this random con-man?  He's neither shown
>any demonstrated skill at his art, any reason to latch on to him, nor
>even proposed the concept in the first place.  I mean, assuming in
>context of your fic she's reached the point she doesn't believe she can
>win him herself (Which is one of your premises), she just out of the
>blue is latching on to a random person without even trying anything
>nutsy herself first?

She's tried plenty of "nutzy" on her own and it all backfired or came to
naught. At this point, she has very little to lose.

>Okay, so maybe changing the subject would be a good idea. "This Ranma
>of yours... he got other women after him, or just you?"
>
>ECB: He's already figured it out as you showed on camera before, moreso
>how exactly did he understand what she was asking at all without her
>explaining the situation first?  Logic-flaw.  He either knows it's a
>soap opera before this point and is merely asking specific details
>or he does not.  Only one works.
>ECBLogictrain: *TOOT TOOT*
>ECB: Oh, one more hole... she's not called him Ranma yet.  Nor has anyone
>else.
>And as you show right below, she seems to be referring to him as
>Ran-chan in the entire discussion.  So how does he know that his name
>isn't just Ran or Ran-chan?  Where does he magically gain the second
>syllable?

From, one can assume, conversations that took place during the scene
break indicated by the "***".

You know, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But when
you harp at length on trivial points that are easily explained away with
a little thought, and that have no real importance anyway, it makes me
feel that I'm probably wasting my time responding to you.

>ECB: A weak attempt at comedy.  There's only so far you can pull the
>misrecognition joke.  He'd have to be a total idiot to assume that
>someone he ranks as '5 star babe' is having trouble competing against
>an old woman.  It's just too farfetched to be funny.

Again, I'm going to have to hear from more readers on this, considering
that nobody else has had (or at least expressed) a problem with it.

>"Uh huh. And she doesn't have a lot of shame when it comes to showing
>it, either. She's been known to sneak naked into the shower with him,
>or into his bed while he's sleeping."
>
>ECB: Ukyo knows this?  From where?  Minor point really, but I think
>you are attributing her knowledge she has no reason to have.

Ranma or any of the Tendos might have mentioned it to her.

>ECB: Where does Ukyo get the cash?  Why does this guy start at all
>without any payment arrangement?  He doesn't even have the semi-decent
>concept you provided before of: "if he's increasing her business
>share, he can blackmail her later and skim large amounts off the top of
>her increased earnings."  Here he's working towards a situation
>where she'd be able to pay him less as she's spending more time fawning
>over her boyfriend.  Moreso, he spends an apparently ungodly amount
>of money on it while already being in debt.  Where's all the cash
>coming from?  Ukyo's secret stock exchange?

I don't know. Where did she get the cash to open her restaurant in the
first place? For that matter, what's Soun Tendo's source of income?
Again, you're asking for a higher standard than is maintained in the
original series.

>"All right, then," she said, obvious unease coloring her voice. *Little
>miss high-and-mighty,* he thought with a chuckle, *embarrassed
>to have to deal with a scumbag like me.* She was no different than he
>was. Not really. Some joker comes into her restaurant and plunks down
>five hundred yen for an okonomiyaki, and she delivers the goods. The
>guy could be an axe murderer for all she knows , and all she cares is
>how big a tip he leaves when he's done. That's all it's about. *You
>pay, and I play.* It's what business is all about.
>
>ECB: Why did you just switch writing styles here?  This has all been
>in his third-person limited perspective.  You were clearly showing
>his thoughts just a few paragraphs above without markers.  Why the
>sudden switch to them now?
>ECBMeow: I would recommend that you take them out entirely.  While
>I could expound on the reasons why, I think this parody fic should
>make the reasons clear.
>ECBLinker: http://www.garykleppe.org/fanfic/thekey.txt

Evidently you missed the point of that parody, which was to satirize
people who waste space explaining what their symbols mean. I;ve never
argued against the use of symbols themselves. As for the supposed switch
in styles, there's a difference between a character thinking in words
and coming up with an exact phrase in his mind expressing what he's
thought, versus a character just thinking. The first person marked tex
indicates the former, the third-person unmarked text the latter. If I
were writing for print text I'd use italics for the first, but that
isn't possible in plain text.

>Tenshi dropped his feet to the floor and straightened out his back.
>"As far as this little... ad campaign... is concerned, there's two ways
>you can play it. Positive, or negative. Positive means you tell 'em how
>wonderful your own product is and how much it'll enrich their lives.
>Negative means you attack the competitor's product, you tell them how
>bad off they are 'cause they didn't buy yours instead."
>
>ECB: Minor grammar point, abusing ellipsis==Bad.

And abusing C syntax is even worse. Hint: you want something like
abusingEllipses.isBad() == true. (Or TRUE or True depending on exactly
which language or variant you're using.)

Now perhaps you can tell me why you think I'm abusing ellipses here?
True, technically I should either space after each dot or not space
after the last one, but either of those approaches creates word wrapping
problems in plain text. If you mean I shouldn't use ellipses at all
there, well... I'm not sure how else I'd indicate his pause there.
Having the narrator explicitly say "he paused" seems like it'd be a
little clumsy.

>"Hm." Ukyo put a hand to her chin. "Which do you think we should do?"
>
>"Well, your boy's got other women chasing him. So going negative
>against the lead contender isn't gonna help if someone else comes in to
>pick up
>
>ECB: Which, as I'll note, he doesn't know which is the lead contender
>as he hasn't asked.  More on this later.

Of course he does. It was obvious from the opening scene.

>ECB: This really isn't the standard context of an ECB.  It's not
>something I teach the other reviewers to note or pay attention to or
>something that really belongs in one.  But in this case, I not only
>couldn't help but notice it, but ran it by several others to check as
>well.  And frankly, no one missed the pathetic swipe at Zen's Long and
>Winding Road here.  Whether you think it's good natured or not, your
>attempt to swipe here wrecked a large part of your fic.  You suffered
>from tunnel vision and thus didn't make the scene anywhere near as
>funny as it could be.  A pity, but such is the fate of most people
>who are trapped in rantficcing.

It's satire. I don't know whether Zen's read this particular fic, but in
general Zen's never had a problem with my parodying his work and has
always taken it good-naturedly. I don't know why you can't, too, or why
you think it's wrecked this fic. How do you think I should've done it
differently? (And just telling me to take out the L&WR references isn't
an answer. I asked what you think I *should* have done, not what I
*shouldn't.*)

>Vice Principal Tsumaranai of Furinkan paged through the expense reports
>on his desk, resisting the urge to tear out what was left of his hair.
>
>ECB: Vice Principal... Boring?  Uninteresting?  Useless?  Was that
>supposed to be some in joke that you forgot to clear up in your
>author's notes?  Or did you simply pull a stupid name out of nowhere?

I needed a name. Stuff like this is an in-joke for people who bother to
look it up.

>Five hundred thousand yen to build a simulated jungle in the basement?
>How was he going to explain this to the school authorities? Yet if he
>didn't find some way of reconciling the budget, there wouldn't be
>anything left to pay the faculty. Not to mention the administrators,
>a certain one of whom had a wife and two daughters at home, counting
>on him to bring back a paycheck that they could use to put food on the
>table.
>
>ECB: Seriousness of this type hurts the funny.  You are attempting
>to bring the reality of the whole Ranmaverse in here and provide a
>'need' in which the crap con-man shows up with his imaginary money

What are you talking about? This comment makes no sense.

>(That would go better to well, paying off the yakuza).

As I noted in a subsequent scene, it isn't his money. He's getting it
from advertisers.

>ECB: Mr. Practice now?  Boy, I guess having a little hint for your
>non-japanese readers is too much!

Since you were (erroneously) trying to rip on my use of proper nouns
before, I'll point out that Japanese should be capitalized.

>ECB: Where's he getting the money immediately from this?  Ukyo?  I do
>hope you cover this later.
>ECBRealism: You know, people don't ask questions like this when you don't
>strive to add measures of Realism like cops and health agencies to your
>story.

Realism isn't a proper noun, chuckles.

>ECB: And here we wonder why the screwup isn't that Ukyo gets casted
>as something other than the lead.  Or why he didn't put Ukyo clearly
>in the lead role?  Why leave it to chance?

Because he knows she's going to volunteer for it.

>ECB: Amusing character that is underused in this fic.  Very underused.
>Of course, given you do almost the entire play off camera, that's no
>surprise.  It's amazing how you run with things that suck, and give
>barely any time to stuff that has the potential to work.  I mean, even
>if this is stupid, it's at least Takahashi stupid and thus fits in
>well.

If you (or whoever ghosted this particular bit for you) think Takahashi
(work) is stupid, why are you even reading a Ranma fic, let alone one
that's as close to original flavor as this one?

Sorry, but that's the limit of my patience. So far, about all you've
done is to harp on some rather nitpicky points and throw out insults
like "suck" and "crap" without any sort of argument or explanation that
might persuade me to see things your way and what you think I should've
done differently. While you certainly have every right to your opinions,
this kind of feedback isn't of any use to me, and I'm not going to waste
my time reading any further.

Have a nice day,

Gary Kleppe
http://www.garykleppe.org/comics.html
Well, Goodbye.

Dracos

*ECB Response*
>
>"Philip Bloom" <dracos12@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >  Greetings and welcome to another session of the Evil Commentary
> >Bureau.
>
>Have there been previous ones? I must've missed them.

They are generally sent only to the author in question and archived on the
site.  Only included this one to the list at large by multiple request.

>
> >  The author shall be allowed a single response sent to the email:
> >dracos12@hotmail.com.  We apologize for not being able to provide
>
>The author will decide for himself (subject to the mailing list rules,
>of course) what he is and isn't allowed, thank you.
>
> >ECB: A solid start, save for one thing: "Why?" ECBTenshi: Mwahahaha,
> >I am going to enter a small and likely poor restaurant and contemplate
> >ways I can sabotage it just because!  Look at me, I'm a rat!
>
>It's called professional curiosity. As a web programmer, when I visit a
>site I often take note of what sort of technology it uses, even though I
>don't work for the site in question.

Ah...but you aren't a conman.  Your priorities naturally differ.  As you
specifically note him to be coming in looking for a way to make money,
having him not observing the place from that standpoint makes no sense.

>
> >ECB: Because people dressed in an eccentric fashion that advertises
> >their store are obviously just the hired help.
>
>Ever been to a MacDonald's? Ronald doesn't own the place. Neither do the
>people in the fancy uniforms. Granted this attitude is more appropriate
>for American restaurants; the unintentional Americanization in this is a
>problem which other people have pointed out and I intend to try to
>address whenever I get around to revising this fic.

It's not even appropriate for American restaurants either.  You are looking
at a franchise and comparing how it is run to a small two person restaurant.
 It's not comparable by any means.  Especially as, at the least, there'd be
several in that uniform around if it was a standard workers fare.

>
> >  You build up a small
> >amount of confusion here in Tenshi that doesn't add anything and just
> >seems silly.  Anyone so 'knowledgable' to feel confident in shutting
> >down a place at a glance would certainly be perceptive enough to spot
> >the owner acting in the classic fashion for owners of those types of
> >resturaunts.
>
>For one thing, there's a difference between feeling knowledgable and
>actually *being* knowledgeable. For another, the latter doesn't
>guarantee that one won't make mistakes. The primary purpose of this bit
>is to show that Tenshi *does* make mistakes and at least in that sense
>is not the classic Annoying New Character.

It doesn't achieve that effect though.  He still comes across as a classic
Annoying New Character.  Adding a pointless 'flaw' that doesn't hurt him any
or come into any real effect doesn't change that.

>
> >"Gimme the deluxe," he said. "And a beer. And tell the owner that I'd
> >like to have a word with her." He nodded toward the woman in the
> >kimono, obviously the owner, who stood on the other side pouring tea
> >for another customer.
> >
> >ECBTenshi: "Look at me.  I come into a fast-food resturaunt where the
> >only visible workers in the place are high schoolers and order beer."
> >ECB: But if it isn't served there, why would it be on the menu or
> >wherever he pulled 'deluxe' out of to be ordered?
> >ECBTenshi: "Bah, who needs such things as menus.  I'm building my
> >character!"
>
>In my experience, people rarely look at drink menus unless they're
>ordering a cocktail or something like that. It's not uncommon for people
>to order Coke and be told that the restaurant serves Pepsi instead.

Sure, I guess you see people heading into fast food joints and asking for a
beer all the time because without looking at the menu they naturally assume
a fast food joint would be serving beer.

> >ECB: Why in the world would anyone go after a hole in the wall
> >fast-food joint with that type of offer?  That's almost as bad as
> >walking up to the guy selling food out of his cart and asking him if
> >he'd be willing to pay to have the nearby resturants taken out of
> >commission.  It's a silly offer, especially to what is clearly a
> >teenager.
>
>Well, why would a traveling salesman sell magical paper dolls to
>Gosunkugi, when there'd be lots of people who could and would pay more
>for them. Why would Ryoga manage to find a love-fishing rod in a
>department store, when all the other characters who would obviously like
>to get their hands on one can't? I don't see why the premise here is any
>less believable than a lot of what happens in the original series.

Nope, nope, nope.  You can't compare a one instance 'deus ex machina' item,
naturally devoid of reason or motive, with a character, who should contain
both.  The items lack any sentience or choice in it.  Whether they are
picked up at random magic store X, found on the ground somewhere, or any
other contrivance, they fall into a wholly separate category than a what a
supposedly intelligent and thinking character would.  Tenshi is not running
some random store and selling to whoever randomly passes by.  He's
intentionally and directly entering a business with the belief that it can
be a potential money maker for him.  Given this, it brings the question
obviously to bare: "What's his motive?"  This question is inherently not
asked of finding something on the floor that happens to be valuable.  You
don't attribute the same rules to the lucky hundred dollar bill you found on
the ground as you do to guy coming up to you and trying to get you to do
something.

>
> >She flashed a patronizing smile. "I don't think I could handle that
> >much business, sugar."
> >
> >ECB: Reasonably patronizing, though the lead up for it doesn't make
> >sense.  Nor does his quick entrance and immediate throwing of his pitch
> >without even taking time to assess the resturant beyond a brief glance.
> >I mean, sheesh, you paint this guy as both incompetent beyond belief
> >and capable of examining and analyzing targets in the restaurant
> >with a glance.  You just rush right in without taking any time to build
> >the atmosphere.
>
>Though I think you're overstating the case and you know it, it's true
>that he is both incompetent and capable. Welcome to the Ranmaverse. It's
>the same place where someone can be smart enough to learn complex
>martial arts moves but can't follow even the simplest of directions. Or
>strong enough to survive being slammed into a rock wall but not enough
>to avoid being knocked out by a falling coconut.

Totally unrelated.  I'd raise the same red flag if Ryoga suddenly was unable
to figure out how to throw a punch.  It's neither an unrelated skill set or
slapstick.  You've painted him as very perceptive and yet at the same time
you paint him as not demonstrating the skills that go along with being very
perceptive or even being a conman.

>
> >  And of course, there is no one like
> >Kasumi around who makes their own food.
>
>There are, but restaurant owners generally don't consider them to be
>competition. Unless they're self-insert characters, strangers don't
>often decide to drop in at the Tendos' becase the prices at Ucchan's are
>too high.

You missed the point.  I wasn't saying they'd all go to the Tendos'.   I was
saying that offering to let her raise her prices as high as she wants is a
stupid offer.  Any businessman worth his salt knows that if you charge too
much for something, people go elsewhere.  Even if she was the only gig in
town, people could, and would, cook at home.

>
> >  And why would a con-man set up
> >for a long term job with the local Yakuza after him?
>
>One particular group of thugs, who may or may not be Yakuza (Tenshi says
>they are, but he isn't exactly a reliable source) is after him. He
>doesn't expect to run into them in this neighborhood.

It really doesn't matter whether they are or not.  He calls them it and so
we have no reason to disbelieve him on that... but really, even if it wasn't
the 'official Yakuza family', there still renders the fact that he's setting
up for a long term job with a likely equally large amount of publicity when
there are thugs in the same town after him to the point they are willing to
shoot on sight in broad daylight.  Why doesn't he expect to run into them in
this neighborhood?  He's obviously within common driving range of them.  If
he's that afraid of them (which he shows he is), he should be way out of the
way for them to be there.

>
> > ECBTenshi:
> >"It's just for the excitement!  After all, I can make more money if I
> >have to deal with hiding from crimelords and evading bullets when
> >trying to make a pitch at a fast food joint." ECBRealLife: And a part
> >time resturant owner wouldn't laugh at the concept of being the only
> >food supplier for about a half million people?
>
>She might if that were the actual offer, yes.
>
>BTW, in the event you do more of these commentaries, for readability's
>sake you might want to consider skipping a line between each virtual
>speaker's comments.

If you'd looked further, you'd notice most are.  It was a formatting goof
from utilizing winhelper to format it to a seventy-five character width.  
Truthfully, I do have to stop using that and go code one of my own as that
tends to be a rather annoying common problem and having one that scans for
those to produce linebreaks would be useful.  Anyhow, thanks for the
suggestion ^_^.

>
> >ECB: Ranma has big muscles?  Anyhow, nice analogy, though this is
> >probably the most observation skills you've given this putz so far.
> >ECBLogictrain: *Beep Beep* There's a tree in the road.
> >ECB: It's observant actually to the point of disbelief.  He manages to
>see
> >Ranma's ass when he's lumbering in and towards them?  How?  Did he have
> >a mirror set up behind Ranma?
>
>Who said Ranma was making a direct bee line to Ukyo? That tends to be
>hard to do in a restaurant.

Yeah, except you know how large Ukyo's restaurant is.  Heading to the
counter in it is not an onerous task that involves slipping this way and
that.  Looking at the manga right now, volume 9 of the scans(I'm told this
is part 5, no 3 of the Viz releases, but I don't have those sitting next to
me to check), it's clear there is no visible reason to have to turn between
the door and the counter.  No tables even remotely nearby, and it's only a
few steps.  As I believe you've informed us before in previous criticisms...
Ukyo's restaurant is quite tiny.

>
> >Glancing back at Tenshi, the waitress flipped an okonomiyaki in his
> >direction. It slid across the counter, stopping precisely in front of
> >him. "Enjoy, sugar. Then leave. I don't think we can do business."
> >
> >ECB: Who would eat an okonomiyaki that was flipped off the grill, onto
> >the counter, and then slid across it to stay in front of them... with
> >no plate?
> >
> >ECBUkyo: But I serve all my okonomiyaki fresh off the counter
> >without plates.  The sink is just decoration.
>
>Again, I think you're trying to apply a higher standard of realism here
>than in the original series. The image of sliding an okonomiyaki across
>the bar like a glass of beer in an old Western was, in my opinion,
>amusing enough to include, and not any more unbelievable than much of
>what goes on in the manga.

Translation: I forgot to include the dish in my description and instead of
being a man and just owning up to it, I'm bullshitting.

Of course it was obvious you were making the parallels to an Old Western
there.  It was quite obvious from the description style.  But just like an
old western wouldn't forget to have the mug for the beer to be poured into,
your description shouldn't lack a plate for the Okonomiyaki to fall onto.

>
> >"Um... yeah, Ran-chan." The giant spatula swung into action. "I'll just
> >box it up for you."
> >
> >ECB: Ranma... needs to box his food and carry it out?  Since when?  He
> >eats like a speed demon on steroids.
>
>Got a cite from the manga for this? I can't remember him speed-eating
>without a specific reason for it, and I can think of plenty of scenes
>that show him eating normally.

The fact that he can is enough.  There's no reason for him to be in a rush
here and several on camera reasons for him to be in anything but a rush to
head back to the Tendos'.

>
> >ECB: You know, there's something off about this whole scene.  It rubs
> >one wrong not so much from a Make Sense angle but more the: "Who is
> >this guy and what did he do with Ranma?"  Ranma shows countless
> >times in the series that he doesn't make up unless prodded to.
>
>Who says he wasn't prodded?

Who said he didn't decide to wipe out half of Japan in annoyance between
walking from the Tendos' and coming into to the Ucchan's?  You can't slip in
major deviations in character attributable to off camera stuff without even
telling us about the off camera stuff.  Without it existing anywhere in the
prose, being hinted at, or even being a logical precursor within the line of
events, it does not exist.

If he was prodded, then we should see him trying to make up with Akane or
mentioning something along those lines, not just going straight off into it.

>
> >ECB: You know, I can't follow this logic leap.  It makes no sense.
> >She knows he's an obvious con-man, but how she gets from: "I offer to
> >wreck your business competition" to "Hey, I'm a master of romantic
> >intrigue and can get rid of your rivals" without any prodding from the
> >departing con-man is beyond me.  I mean sheesh, it's like assuming
> >because Ranma could physically protect someone, that he's the guy to
> >hire to do your math homework.  The leap makes no sense.
>
>Actually, it's your analogy which makes no sense. The same basic skills,
>or at least a good portion of them, apply to convincing customers to
>switch restaurants as to convincing a person to switch his love
>interest. There are no skills in common between hitting people and
>hitting the math books.

I trust that you hire untrustworthy conmen off the street to handle your
romantic affairs as well.  The analogy holds.  You don't hire a conman to do
romance counciling.  Neither do you hire a marketer to do it either(Which is
the skill set you are referring to).  It doesn't work like that.  Of course,
feel free to find a bunch of people who think: "Hmm, I'm having trouble
getting my boyfriend.  He looks at other girls.  I should hire a marketing
expert out of the blue!"

>
>As to your point, yes, I could have spent more time developing Ukyo's
>reasons for putting her faith in this guy. I chose not to, because I
>wanted to get on with the story and showing the *consequences* of her
>decision, and because generally people didn't have a problem with it.
>It's been nearly a year and a half since this fic was released, before
>which it was previewed in various one-hour challenges, and nobody but
>you (and/or your anonymous collaborators) have expressed a problem with
>this leap. So I'm really going to have to hear some fresh opinions
>before changing it.

You didn't need to.  You could've simply had him offer the proposition and
bill himself as a guy who could do that kind of stuff.  Of course, it has
the inherent problem of why is he switching from a visibly profitable scheme
to one that (even if profitable) won't be in the same range for far more
work.  Even so, removing the setup to get into the plot doesn't help a fic.  
You got complaints about this when it was first written too, so don't pull
the 'nobody has complained'.  The archive logs speak differently.

>
> >  Even worse,
> >it makes him trying it again as your ending seem like you forgot he was
> >leery of it in the first place!
>
>Um... come again? Even allowing for the grammatical errors, I can't tell
>what you were trying to say here.

Remember, the end of your fic?  Where he goes ahead and decides: "This is a
great way to make money!" and decides to start doing the same stunt with
Kuno?  If he is leery of it at the beginning of the fic and then has it turn
out an overall disaster... why is he trying it again of his own initiative?

>
> >ECB: And again we ask, why is he taking the job?  There is obviously
> >not money in it.  It even goes against his whole mentality above.  Why
>
>What are you talking about? Of course there's money in it. He's a
>mercenary, and as such is going to work for whoever is willing to hire
>him.

No, no there isn't.  Not compared to the amounts he was looking at for the
previous scheme.  It's the equivelent of trying to get a high paying
position at a corporation and then putting up with selling lemonade by the
curve.  The amount he's able to wring out of a single small business is
peanuts compared to turning it into a large business and wringing it out for
cash through 'gratitude' and 'blackmail'.  He doesn't even ensure a fee for
himself, just leaving it to discuss later saying he'll want money for it.

>
> >ECB: Why is she fixated on this random con-man?  He's neither shown
> >any demonstrated skill at his art, any reason to latch on to him, nor
> >even proposed the concept in the first place.  I mean, assuming in
> >context of your fic she's reached the point she doesn't believe she can
> >win him herself (Which is one of your premises), she just out of the
> >blue is latching on to a random person without even trying anything
> >nutsy herself first?
>
>She's tried plenty of "nutzy" on her own and it all backfired or came to
>naught. At this point, she has very little to lose.

Yes, but those nutsy schemes generally had precursors.  Something that
helped inspire the thought.  An indication that "Hey, this might work for
this!"  You don't actually place where the whole fic is taking place but it
doesn't really matter, accepting she is desperate and having her latch onto
a conman who shows no interest in the matter nor any belief that he could do
it (even going as far as to indicate that he didn't think he could do it),
just stretches the suspension of disbelief too far.  As with MANY of your
logic errors in the fic, it could've been fixed just by providing the
necessary setup.  Having him not be leary of it and instead be confident
about it.  Having him slip the idea and like any other godforsaken stupid
idea that could be ran by her at that point, her latching right onto it in
desperation.  Ignoring having that makes the scene just become weird.

>
> >Okay, so maybe changing the subject would be a good idea. "This Ranma
> >of yours... he got other women after him, or just you?"
> >
> >ECB: He's already figured it out as you showed on camera before, moreso
> >how exactly did he understand what she was asking at all without her
> >explaining the situation first?  Logic-flaw.  He either knows it's a
> >soap opera before this point and is merely asking specific details
> >or he does not.  Only one works.
> >ECBLogictrain: *TOOT TOOT*
> >ECB: Oh, one more hole... she's not called him Ranma yet.  Nor has anyone
> >else.
> >And as you show right below, she seems to be referring to him as
> >Ran-chan in the entire discussion.  So how does he know that his name
> >isn't just Ran or Ran-chan?  Where does he magically gain the second
> >syllable?
>
>From, one can assume, conversations that took place during the scene
>break indicated by the "***".

As I said...  either one or the other works.  Either he's been getting told
about it during the break, or he hasn't.  If he's been getting told about it
during the break, he should already know the basics of the situation (or at
least that there are other girls there).  If he hasn't, than his knowledge
and analyzing what she is really asking comes from nowhere.  So, yes, one
can assume that, and if you read, you'll notice that I 'did'.  But noted
that such provides a logic hole.

Anyhow, nice dodge.

>
>You know, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But when
>you harp at length on trivial points that are easily explained away with
>a little thought, and that have no real importance anyway, it makes me
>feel that I'm probably wasting my time responding to you.
>
> >ECB: A weak attempt at comedy.  There's only so far you can pull the
> >misrecognition joke.  He'd have to be a total idiot to assume that
> >someone he ranks as '5 star babe' is having trouble competing against
> >an old woman.  It's just too farfetched to be funny.
>
>Again, I'm going to have to hear from more readers on this, considering
>that nobody else has had (or at least expressed) a problem with it.

I'm not going to bother answering the silliness of your response.  You've
shown in the past that even if many people tell you a joke isn't funny, you
don't believe them.  Having more people stand up and say: "Man, this isn't
funny", isn't going to change your opinion if just the analyzing of why the
joke mechanics don't work doesn't.

>
> >"Uh huh. And she doesn't have a lot of shame when it comes to showing
> >it, either. She's been known to sneak naked into the shower with him,
> >or into his bed while he's sleeping."
> >
> >ECB: Ukyo knows this?  From where?  Minor point really, but I think
> >you are attributing her knowledge she has no reason to have.
>
>Ranma or any of the Tendos might have mentioned it to her.

She also knows Akane wears barney panties on thursday.  I can't believe you
answer minor points and don't even get why they would be a point at all.  
It's an unnecessary addition of knowledge that adds nothing to your fic and
just gets the observant to wonder: "Why does she know that?"  It's one of
those extra chunks of fat a good prereader tells you to not waste your time
keeping in.  You commented earlier about rushing to get into the plot of
things...  so you skimped on doing the setup and intead padded it with stuff
you didn't need to have in there at all?

>
> >ECB: Where does Ukyo get the cash?  Why does this guy start at all
> >without any payment arrangement?  He doesn't even have the semi-decent
> >concept you provided before of: "if he's increasing her business
> >share, he can blackmail her later and skim large amounts off the top of
> >her increased earnings."  Here he's working towards a situation
> >where she'd be able to pay him less as she's spending more time fawning
> >over her boyfriend.  Moreso, he spends an apparently ungodly amount
> >of money on it while already being in debt.  Where's all the cash
> >coming from?  Ukyo's secret stock exchange?
>
>I don't know. Where did she get the cash to open her restaurant in the
>first place? For that matter, what's Soun Tendo's source of income?
>Again, you're asking for a higher standard than is maintained in the
>original series.

Ah, but so are you.  This fic is written at a higher standard than the
original series.  You include money as a serious and non-comedic concept in
it.  You include law and medicine as the same.  When you raise the bar of
realism in your fics well beyond the original series, you shouldn't be
surprised at all that a higher standard of consistency is demanded of the
fic as a whole.

>
> >"All right, then," she said, obvious unease coloring her voice. *Little
> >miss high-and-mighty,* he thought with a chuckle, *embarrassed
> >to have to deal with a scumbag like me.* She was no different than he
> >was. Not really. Some joker comes into her restaurant and plunks down
> >five hundred yen for an okonomiyaki, and she delivers the goods. The
> >guy could be an axe murderer for all she knows , and all she cares is
> >how big a tip he leaves when he's done. That's all it's about. *You
> >pay, and I play.* It's what business is all about.
> >
> >ECB: Why did you just switch writing styles here?  This has all been
> >in his third-person limited perspective.  You were clearly showing
> >his thoughts just a few paragraphs above without markers.  Why the
> >sudden switch to them now?
> >ECBMeow: I would recommend that you take them out entirely.  While
> >I could expound on the reasons why, I think this parody fic should
> >make the reasons clear.
> >ECBLinker: http://www.garykleppe.org/fanfic/thekey.txt
>
>Evidently you missed the point of that parody, which was to satirize
>people who waste space explaining what their symbols mean. I;ve never
>argued against the use of symbols themselves. As for the supposed switch
>in styles, there's a difference between a character thinking in words
>and coming up with an exact phrase in his mind expressing what he's
>thought, versus a character just thinking. The first person marked tex
>indicates the former, the third-person unmarked text the latter. If I
>were writing for print text I'd use italics for the first, but that
>isn't possible in plain text.

Unnecessary.  The same thing could've been written without it.  We're shown
complex thought without this 'tool' just a scene before right from his mind.
 In other words:

"Thanks for the bullshit, would you care to pass another serving down?"

>
> >Tenshi dropped his feet to the floor and straightened out his back.
> >"As far as this little... ad campaign... is concerned, there's two ways
> >you can play it. Positive, or negative. Positive means you tell 'em how
> >wonderful your own product is and how much it'll enrich their lives.
> >Negative means you attack the competitor's product, you tell them how
> >bad off they are 'cause they didn't buy yours instead."
> >
> >ECB: Minor grammar point, abusing ellipsis==Bad.
>
>And abusing C syntax is even worse. Hint: you want something like
>abusingEllipses.isBad() == true. (Or TRUE or True depending on exactly
>which language or variant you're using.)

Keep going, if you want to complain about it being C syntax, you should've
noted that it doesn;t end in a ";" to indicate the end of the definition
line.  Anyhow, it wasn't C syntax so much as just a bad habit of using the
double equal sign.

>
>Now perhaps you can tell me why you think I'm abusing ellipses here?
>True, technically I should either space after each dot or not space
>after the last one, but either of those approaches creates word wrapping
>problems in plain text. If you mean I shouldn't use ellipses at all
>there, well... I'm not sure how else I'd indicate his pause there.
>Having the narrator explicitly say "he paused" seems like it'd be a
>little clumsy.

A single ellipses is proper there.  A double one is not.  He doesn't pause
both before and after saying it for a long time.  If there was a short pause
after it, then it should've been indicated using a comma.

>
> >"Hm." Ukyo put a hand to her chin. "Which do you think we should do?"
> >
> >"Well, your boy's got other women chasing him. So going negative
> >against the lead contender isn't gonna help if someone else comes in to
> >pick up
> >
> >ECB: Which, as I'll note, he doesn't know which is the lead contender
> >as he hasn't asked.  More on this later.
>
>Of course he does. It was obvious from the opening scene.

No, it merely indicates at least one contender named Akane is ahead of her.  
Of course, she's indicating everyone but Akane and telling him about
everyone but Akane as I think you ingrained into yourself that she already
covered Akane.  What makes it more amusing is outside of these couple of
paragraphs and a single line at the end, these other two fiancees which you
spend time detailing on camera (instead of Akane) don't even show up in the
fic.

>
> >ECB: This really isn't the standard context of an ECB.  It's not
> >something I teach the other reviewers to note or pay attention to or
> >something that really belongs in one.  But in this case, I not only
> >couldn't help but notice it, but ran it by several others to check as
> >well.  And frankly, no one missed the pathetic swipe at Zen's Long and
> >Winding Road here.  Whether you think it's good natured or not, your
> >attempt to swipe here wrecked a large part of your fic.  You suffered
> >from tunnel vision and thus didn't make the scene anywhere near as
> >funny as it could be.  A pity, but such is the fate of most people
> >who are trapped in rantficcing.
>
>It's satire. I don't know whether Zen's read this particular fic, but in
>general Zen's never had a problem with my parodying his work and has
>always taken it good-naturedly. I don't know why you can't, too, or why
>you think it's wrecked this fic. How do you think I should've done it
>differently? (And just telling me to take out the L&WR references isn't
>an answer. I asked what you think I *should* have done, not what I
>*shouldn't.*)

You see, this is where basic pattern recognition comes into play.  Having a
swipe at Zen in there is fine under the grounds of parody.  But...it
shouldn't be the only thing in the fic.  You have two major conflict points
in the fic.  One is the play section that just started (all revolving around
L&WR) and the other is the medical condition (All an obvious jab at Bitter
End).  You can claim it's meant in parody but you don't put anything else
into it.  The only meat you have in this story is entirely jabbing at Zen.  
So what SHOULD you have done?  You should've had more there.  Had those
other fiancees show up.  Covered more in depth into the play and worked the
humor of it.  Provide some alternate areas of meat perhaps covering his
investigations of the other fiancees and the like.  The options to go
somewhere with this fic should be obvious to anyone who reads it cleanly
through.  You hint at the potential all over the place but never go anywhere
with it as you are too busy keeping the entire fic revolving around two of
Zen's fics.  Thus, as I said, it's a pity.  The fic has some stuff that
could be pretty funny if you weren't tunnel visioning the whole way through
writing it.

>
> >Vice Principal Tsumaranai of Furinkan paged through the expense reports
> >on his desk, resisting the urge to tear out what was left of his hair.
> >
> >ECB: Vice Principal... Boring?  Uninteresting?  Useless?  Was that
> >supposed to be some in joke that you forgot to clear up in your
> >author's notes?  Or did you simply pull a stupid name out of nowhere?
>
>I needed a name. Stuff like this is an in-joke for people who bother to
>look it up.

A joke that needs to be explained is not funny.  Simple as that.  
Personally, I'd have gone with a footnote on the whole affair.

>
> >Five hundred thousand yen to build a simulated jungle in the basement?
> >How was he going to explain this to the school authorities? Yet if he
> >didn't find some way of reconciling the budget, there wouldn't be
> >anything left to pay the faculty. Not to mention the administrators,
> >a certain one of whom had a wife and two daughters at home, counting
> >on him to bring back a paycheck that they could use to put food on the
> >table.
> >
> >ECB: Seriousness of this type hurts the funny.  You are attempting
> >to bring the reality of the whole Ranmaverse in here and provide a
> >'need' in which the crap con-man shows up with his imaginary money
>
>What are you talking about? This comment makes no sense.

It doesn't?  What doesn't make sense about not mixing seriousness with
trying to make people laugh?  This isn't a joke given straight faced.  This
IS a visible indication that "Hey, these people aren't just comic figures,
but real suffering human beings with their own pasts!"  People don't need to
know that and it sure as hell doesn't help them laugh at a scene when they
can easily sympathize with the guy having trouble making ends meet.  
Basically, you went overboard providing the opportunity for Tenshi and hurt
the comic atmosphere by doing so.

>
> >(That would go better to well, paying off the yakuza).
>
>As I noted in a subsequent scene, it isn't his money. He's getting it
>from advertisers.

Your point?  He clearly pockets some of it already (As he notes).  What's to
stop him from vanishing after he already got the cash?  I mean, he's
demonstrated the ability to con some large sum of money (by the VPs
reaction) with nothing from the school and no backup.  That's impressive.  
Way to go him.  And it makes him wasting his time with small money crap seem
all the more odd in comparison.  Especially when the same cash he could've
gotten whether or not Ukyo was there could've handled his debts or been used
to other ends.

>
> >ECB: Mr. Practice now?  Boy, I guess having a little hint for your
> >non-japanese readers is too much!
>
>Since you were (erroneously) trying to rip on my use of proper nouns
>before, I'll point out that Japanese should be capitalized.

Cheerio ^_^

>
> >ECB: Where's he getting the money immediately from this?  Ukyo?  I do
> >hope you cover this later.
> >ECBRealism: You know, people don't ask questions like this when you don't
> >strive to add measures of Realism like cops and health agencies to your
> >story.
>
>Realism isn't a proper noun, chuckles.

Should I have used glowing letters instead?  I was using it to refer to the
larger concept of "Realism", thus the usage of a capital letter there.  To
ACCENT that.

>
> >ECB: And here we wonder why the screwup isn't that Ukyo gets casted
> >as something other than the lead.  Or why he didn't put Ukyo clearly
> >in the lead role?  Why leave it to chance?
>
>Because he knows she's going to volunteer for it.

So?  Volunteering for a role in a play doesn't ensure you get it.  You
clearly show devoted actors later, so why wouldn't others be trying out for
the lead female part?  Sure, she might win it...but it doesn't change the
'why leave it to chance' contention.

>
> >ECB: Amusing character that is underused in this fic.  Very underused.
> >Of course, given you do almost the entire play off camera, that's no
> >surprise.  It's amazing how you run with things that suck, and give
> >barely any time to stuff that has the potential to work.  I mean, even
> >if this is stupid, it's at least Takahashi stupid and thus fits in
> >well.
>
>If you (or whoever ghosted this particular bit for you) think Takahashi
>(work) is stupid, why are you even reading a Ranma fic, let alone one
>that's as close to original flavor as this one?

Stupid != Not Funny.  The three stooges often did stupid things, but it was
in a theme and style that was funny overall.  Takahashi has a lot of stupid
things happen, but in a vein that was generally funny overall.  If you are
claiming it's in the original vein, then you should want it to be Takahashi
style and us to think "Well yeah, that guy is an idiot, but damn if he
doesn't fit into the mix well."

And is this original flavor or Parody?  Can you make up your mind?  
Personally, I'd love for you to point out to me where Ranma ever gets so
serious that we are seeing guns shooting about, police officers threatening
and arresting people, or anything near that level of reprecussions showing
up.  It sure doesn't seem familiar with the series I read, but maybe I
missed all those shots of the police officers along to the side right next
to the mental asylum.

By the way, thanks for the ghost writer suggestions.  I'm sorry, but at this
time, I don't think they are necessary.  If at a later point they become so,
I'm sure you can suggest some of your personal troope.

>
>Sorry, but that's the limit of my patience. So far, about all you've
>done is to harp on some rather nitpicky points and throw out insults
>like "suck" and "crap" without any sort of argument or explanation that
>might persuade me to see things your way and what you think I should've
>done differently. While you certainly have every right to your opinions,
>this kind of feedback isn't of any use to me, and I'm not going to waste
>my time reading any further.

That's fine.  These are technically written for my own amusement and those
of my readers, sent to authors more along the lines of a gesture of respect
(odd, but true and no I don't feel like spending a paragraph explaining it),
then for any actual caring whether it's useful to them or not.  That is what
actual C&C is for after all.

>
>Have a nice day,

You too!  ^_^

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

DB

Allow me to add an 'Oh yeah' to this. Hit it right on the head, Drac. Nice to see how Gary manages to elude answering anything, or claims it's just 'nitpicking'. Did get him later to at last admit some of the things might needed changing (not that I believe for one second he actually will) just that he couldn't defend himself.

DB

Dracos

Thanks.  Truthfully, I'm still slightly surprised he didn't really play publicly the "I wrote it over a year ago, it's not my best work" or some similar acceptance.  But hey, It's his fic.  If he wants it to be shit, I'll derive my amusement from it ^_^

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.

Edward

Dracos: Glad you liked a couple of my comments enough to add them.  Unfortunately, one isn't formatted correctly and scrolls off the screen to the right.

I think you should have called Gary about ending his reply halfway through the ECB.  It's obvious he wanted to bail because he got tired of creating weak justifications for the flaws on his fic.

DB:  Ginrai PM'd me a log of you pinning Gary to the wall over on #fanfic.  Congrats on a job well done.
If you see Vampire Hikaru Shidou, it is Fox.  No one else does that.  You need no other evidence." - Dracos

"Huh? Which rant?" - Gary

"Do not taunt Happy Fun Servitor of the Outer Gods with your ineffective Thompson Submachine Gun." - grimjack

Dracos

Gah, Formatting, my eternal nemesis o_o

Dracos
Well, Goodbye.