D and D 3.5: Feats Question.

[Anastasia]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#featDescriptions - For general reference here.

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Feats are a funny thing. They're an integral part of every character, providing the fighter his mastery with a weapon, a wizard with the howto for crafting magical items small and large, the raw extra oomph that adventurers need. But I'd like to look at a far less used type of feat, the 'skill booster'.  These plucky feats give a +2 bonus to a couple of skills. For example:

Acrobatic [General]
Benefit

You get a +2 bonus on all Jump checks and Tumble checks.

Okay. That's a total of +4 potential bonus points on two skills. That's nice, I suppose, but it's hard pressed to compare to, say, Improved Initiative, Extra Turning, Improved Toughness or whatever have you. Despite there being about a dozen of these skill boostings feats, I've yet to see one in action. So that begs the question - are they worthless? If so, can they be improved?

I'd like to encourage them in a game I have coming up, and I agree that they're not very useful. So if you wanted to have PCs be more interested in these boosters, how would you change them? I'm thinking of boosting the +2 bonus in each skill to a +4, for example. That's a total of 8 points, and while large, I think that at least has a prayer of catching PC attention.

[Ranmilia]

For what it's worth, those feats used to be +2 to *one* skill.  Or Skill Focus for +1 in any skill.  Then, they were useless.  Now, they're....   well.

The skill system itself is pretty messed up.  Most skills are either opposed checks or fixed DCs in the 15-20 range, so it really tends not to matter how much of a skill you have except in terms of whether you have "a lot" (can hit DCs, match opposed checks with others who maxed the skill and whomp everyone else) or "a little/none" of them.  You pick the skills you want to max and max em.  

So, feats that boost skills are usually worthless in the general sense - they shouldn't bring a total trash skill up to worthwhile, and any skill you want to make worthwhile is probably maxed out already and an extra +2 or +4 won't do much.  It'll help you hit DCs at a lower level than planned - which can be gamebreaking - and give you an even firmer edge on everyone in opposed checks, as opponents now have to have maxed skill + feat to match.  You could theoretically build two skills to medium ranks and get a feat to help them both become good, but that's really unlikely to happen for anyone.  Even a +4 isn't gonna really save a nonclass skill past low levels, so you'd be looking at a character with more class skills that they want to keep high than they have points to do so, and the vast majority of classes either have so few worthwhile class skills or so many skill points/level that they can afford everything (and probably have better uses for a feat than getting one more skill maxed).

D&D skill system sucks.

[Laggy]

D&D skill system sucks.

That said it best. Otherwise...

Salvaging those feats. Um. Well Skill Focus is +3 in one skill (almost no one ever takes it now and it used to be +2) and these are +4 total but... what Alex said is basically right. They're somewhat worthwhile in certain combinations at low levels, but higher up a few points one way or another isn't going to mean shit, as far as the DC goes. And feat slots are very, very precious. You would be hard-pressed to convince any player to take those without some other motivation (prerequisite for a prestige class, etc.)

You want to fix these feats? Consider giving them an additional perk and changing them outright. For example, keep the bonuses as is and give an additional "once per day, you can take 10 on either of these skills, regardless of circumstances". Or take out the bonuses entirely and make 'em three times per day. Just inflating the bonus isn't going to solve the issue (in fact it makes the potential abuse combo worse), but this might be used in some crucial situations, like taking 10 on an important Concentration or Tumble check.

Allowing rerolls on the related skill checks is a thought as well.

There are some skills that are subject to armor check penalty. Lessening or outright removing the penalty on those skills may make some normally weird skills viable, though I have no idea about the far-reaching balanace effects of that.

You could also make both of the skills involved considered class skills. etc.

[Anastasia]

Mmm. I suppose that's a point. I hadn't thought about the low level combos too much, but I'm of two minds there. If you want to waste a feat a level 1 or 3 on a +2 bonus, it doesn't strike me as that bad. On the other hand, it is 3.5 and I'll concede there's likely something I haven't seen here yet for broken.

Anyway...mmm. Alex is probably right and I don't have much to say to him. As for Laggy, those suggestions are good. Making crossclass skills class skills, rerolls, taking 10s, ect are all clearly valuable. I'm not sure about balance, but this gets me thinking. Have you ever tried gaming with any of these changes?

[Laggy]

You are thinking long-term Dune, a lot of games aren't long-haul. >_> To take a very basic example, elf with Alertness and ranger/rogue levels basically doesn't fail any Spot or Listen check ever at that level. Pretty mild case really, but it is one of those "MAX THIS OUT" things with skills that can make them really irritating for a DM to deal with, because you essentially have an omniscient scout in your party now.

I haven't tried them, no, because to tell you the truth even with those perks those feats are still going to be mighty situational. Spellcasters would probably like the ability to reattempt or safely make a handful of Concentration checks a day, almost every class would love Tumble as a class skill.. but there's still too much useless/niche shit as far as skill selection goes, and it would grossly inflate some of them and leave others still looking like non-viable options.

Skills are plain flat not a equal and just world. Some are basically never used (DECIPHER SCRIPT!! wait a 1st level spell can do that??) and some are too damn good (Spot, Listen, Tumble, etc.) while some are good but only applicable in certain areas, which I feel were the best designed skills (Diplomacy, etc.) and some are useless everywhere except for special class combos and abilities (Jump, aka that skill that is overriden by flight in a handful of levels but does massive damage with Jump spell combo and a dragoon jump ability lolololol). If you don't mind that some are going to clearly rise to be the cream of the crop, go ahead and give some of those bonuses. Other feats are still VERY tantalizing, and these offer no visible tree progress, so I say a player taking them should get the perks.

My suggestions on how they should be actually scaled, power-wise? For the +2/+2 skills, give 'em a free reroll once per day on either skill. A separate feat that allows you to take any two skills as class skills (I believe that one actually exists already somewhere). Those would be somewhat viable. Give Skill Focus the additional perk of taking 10 on that skill check 1/day.

[Anastasia]

You are thinking long-term Dune, a lot of games aren't long-haul. >_> To take a very basic example, elf with Alertness and ranger/rogue levels basically doesn't fail any Spot or Listen check ever at that level. Pretty mild case really, but it is one of those "MAX THIS OUT" things with skills that can make them really irritating for a DM to deal with, because you essentially have an omniscient scout in your party now.

Well, this game could be long term. With the chance that it will be I do have to think that way. <_< But yes, point and well taken.

I haven't tried them, no, because to tell you the truth even with those perks those feats are still going to be mighty situational. Spellcasters would probably like the ability to reattempt or safely make a handful of Concentration checks a day, almost every class would love Tumble as a class skill.. but there's still too much useless/niche shit as far as skill selection goes, and it would grossly inflate some of them and leave others still looking like non-viable options.

Skills are plain flat not a equal and just world. Some are basically never used (DECIPHER SCRIPT!! wait a 1st level spell can do that??) and some are too damn good (Spot, Listen, Tumble, etc.) while some are good but only applicable in certain areas, which I feel were the best designed skills (Diplomacy, etc.) and some are useless everywhere except for special class combos and abilities (Jump, aka that skill that is overriden by flight in a handful of levels but does massive damage with Jump spell combo and a dragoon jump ability lolololol). If you don't mind that some are going to clearly rise to be the cream of the crop, go ahead and give some of those bonuses. Other feats are still VERY tantalizing, and these offer no visible tree progress, so I say a player taking them should get the perks.

My suggestions on how they should be actually scaled, power-wise? For the +2/+2 skills, give 'em a free reroll once per day on either skill. A separate feat that allows you to take any two skills as class skills (I believe that one actually exists already somewhere). Those would be somewhat viable. Give Skill Focus the additional perk of taking 10 on that skill check 1/day.

Mmm. I don't mind some being better than others - as Alex said the skill system has issues. I'm not interested in trying to revamp the entire scenario of 'em. Your suggestions seem generally sound - I know Merc is doing something similiar with class skills in his game and has some of the same sentiment. But yes, all of those look workable and manageable.

[Dracos]

Laggy is right.  At the core the problem is that the skill system is pretty crappy.  While it covers more than 2nd eds used to, it's still craptastic in many ways and skills effectively are On or Off save for weird dice rolls.  Because of this, it's difficult writing those feats and they're rarely seen used except when something else is broken (aka: scaling success rates, inits that are absurd, etc).

Truthfully, the lack of detail on a lot of skill sections is what makes these very not valuable combined with the fact that it's rare you're weak in a critical skill except by stupidity (looking at you bluff/intimidate, I mean parry) in the skill design.  Combine this with the fact that nonfighters get very few feats and they've no build and it's not very tasty.

I like the revisions you've made.  They're good starters.  A good follow up with be if they were mini-trees.  1-3 other feats that went on them that really fleshed out an area.  Say you got stealthy and rogue levels, maybe a follow up that lets you get another +2 sneak attack dice.  Balancing a slightly too weak feat with a slightly too strong one and whatnot, making both seem more  likely to be taken.

Edit:
In truth, a redoing of the skills system is really need.  A better architecture for it from the ground up pretty much, either less complicated or better defined through length for each skill with a serious focus on how they'd work in the core game.  To minimize shift, merely removing a few of the weakest skills and detailing out several uses and depth for all of the remaining with a 50-60 range DC of things that can be done with it and things that can be done with it without being an expert (The whole on/off thing is why people primarily go to just a few skills tightly.  They're not rewarded for doing otherwise most often).  ...and you posted while I was long editting =p

Dracos

[Ebiris]

I haven't read it yet, but apparently Complete Scoundrel introduces 'tricks' which are special things you can do once per encounter (or once per minute out of combat) if you have sufficient ranks in certain skills.

Apparently some are pretty useful and comparable to what feats offer, but alas I have no examples to hand.

edit: Examples ho!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=5

[Anastasia]

I haven't read it yet, but apparently Complete Scoundrel introduces 'tricks' which are special things you can do once per encounter (or once per minute out of combat) if you have sufficient ranks in certain skills.

Apparently some are pretty useful and comparable to what feats offer, but alas I have no examples to hand.

That's another interesting take on the problem. When does Complete Scoundrel come out?

Of course, power bloat can result there if too strong. Bleh.

[Dracos]

Seeing that link, Complete Scoundrel reminds of what they've generally been doing with skills: Putting patches over a poorly working system rather than fixing the system.

Dracos

[Carthrat]

I like the idea, though. I think it'd be neat, especially with those chronically underused skills, ala anything physical that isn't tumble...