New, original, and interesting level/dungeon designs?

[Dexie Oblivion]

So, I'm sitting here playing Devil May Cry 3. Fun game. I get to chapter eight, which just so happens to be inside a giant fish's stomach. It gets me to thinking.

Haven't I done this before? In Kingdom Hearts? In Mario Land 2 on the Game Boy? In two Zeldas? In Loco Roco? Hey, someone just informed me that StarTropics has one, too.

All of those had a level that takes place inside a giant fish/whale, which gets me to thinking more.

The first part of Devil May Cry 3 (Chapters 3 through 7, to be exact), take place in a tower that rises up in the middle of the city. How many other games involve giant, mysterious towers that appear out of nowhere?

Which brings me to my point...are game developers so starved for location ideas they have to constantly throw players into a giant fish? Into an ancient tower?

Really, looking back at the last few games I've played, not many of them have any really interesting, original location ideas. Twilight Princess had the Twilight Realm's Castle, which was pretty neat and cool, but even that seems to be based highly on the movie Tron. XP

Looking at the other areas in TP....a mysterious forest, a couple ancient temples, a floating city a fire dungeon that doubles as the mine dungeon....how many times have these areas been done?

I could name a dozen areas from a dozen games I've played recently, but it would just be redundant. Thing is...are developers so out of ideas for locations in games they have to constantly reuse areas like so? Or am I just somehow missing all the games that have original areas?

[Fallacies]

A stage inside an impressionist painting done by MC Escher!

I don't know if having stereotypical stages are that bad. Sometimes doing a stereotype well is better than attempting something totally random out of the blue. Sometimes stereotypes are unavoidable; it's not necessarily easy coming up with a totally original concept that hasn't been used before.

Of course, you could combine random themes as in the example above (which appeared in Chrono Cross). Some difficulty is involved in doing it right and having it come off as elegant.

[Dexie Oblivion]

A stage inside an impressionist painting done by MC Escher!

Psychonauts, The Milkman's Stage. XP

But seriously...stereotypes aren't that bad, as long as they're designed well, and not overused.

But how many games have you played in your lifetime that have a fire dungeon? A water one? A mine or a cave? And how many of those were actually memorable to you?

[thepanda]

Stages tend to reflect the world they're in, though. I don't think it's unreasonable to have temples in Zelda games as that is very much a staple of the series. I think it would be a bit jarring to be playing an RPG that's mostly modern-urban in setting and then suddenly find myself on the sun fighting dragons or something. You'd be hardpressed to even explain why that would be part of the story (Virtual Reality? Magic? ect).

I think rather than making a stage that's so different from the rest that it makes you wonder how it got into the game, the focus should be on making the cliche stages memorable. Take FF6. Cyan's castle in the post-calamity world was pretty memorable. It's a castle- cliche of the cliches- but done in such a way that you can't possibly mistake it for any other. Also, I hated that boss fight. :D

It doesn't help when the designers opt to go for an overall world feel to the design instead of making the various dungeons shine. The Xenosaga franchise is guilty of making the whole world feel generic.

[Dracos]

A stage inside an impressionist painting done by MC Escher!

Psychonauts, The Milkman's Stage. XP

But seriously...stereotypes aren't that bad, as long as they're designed well, and not overused.

But how many games have you played in your lifetime that have a fire dungeon? A water one? A mine or a cave? And how many of those were actually memorable to you?

As he pointed out, it had been done before.

Really truly original locations are troublesome.  Real life ones?  I've played games that have had dungeons in every city from bangkok to new  york. To most people a forest is a forest is a forest.  A mountain, a mountain.  Caves all alike.  Some more interesting, some less, but not truly straying from the base concept.  Space?  Been there.  Mars?  Yup.  Random planet surfaces?  Thousands.  Battlefields?  Yeah, I know it, and as much as I'd like to give psychonauts props there, seen it before.

Panda's right on the dot.  Making a stage memorable is about the execution much more than where it is.  I've walked through forest dungeons which were fantastic and others which where a series of forks.  I fucking hate series of forks design.  Stupid mazes.  None of them were fantastic because they were a forest.  A few of them were memorable in good ways because of what I did in them and why I was there.

Dracos

[twentytwo]

Yeah, I admit making unique levels is extremely difficult. There really isn't much that hasn't been done before in one form or another.

I'd have to say Panda is right on this one. When you're trying to make a game, you first decide on the setting for the story, like Medieval Fantasy. Then, you try to interpret your levels based on that setting. Most often, the simple ones like Cave, Mine, Tower, Office Building, Wigwam Camp, etc. are all based on what the player would EXPECT to see. Honestly, I don't think there's any OTHER way to do it... at least if you want the game to make sense (Earthworm Jim didn't have to make sense...).

Oh yeah, and once I played Dual Hearts, I realized Psychonauts was actually rather derivative. The milkman's stage was unique for its constant sense of Paranoia and Vertigo: unique in Execution, not necessarily in Location. Of course, when you break it down, the whole "entering people's minds" bit was nothing more than a gimmick to make outrageously bizarre stages based on rather random ideas. Overall, it had colorful characters and backdrops, but as far as play-mechanics go, been there done that. However, the stages wouldn't have shined as they did if they didn't have Execution to back up their Location.

As for Escher stages, I wouldn't say the milkman's stage was Escher. Personally, I think Dual Hearts came a lot closer; in that game, you enter people's dreams and one was an impressionistic painter, complete with melting clocks and an abstracted stage laid out on the inside of a giant ring... My point is, yes, it has been done.

In other words: unless you start entering people's minds, most stages are limited by the practicality of their settings.

meat circus...
-22

[Anastasia]

As another note to all this? It's not just about making the generic areas interesting via events and execution. Atmosphere is also an important part of things. A forest of forks, as Drac said, is boring. On the other hand?

Tales of the Abyss took this theory to a higher level. For example, one of the early dungeons is a staple of RPGs - bridge is out, so you have to do an irritating work around. Instead, it give you an interesting dungeon - you actually get wet and ford the damn river.

[Dracos]

Quite right, Dune.  And equally important to note is that atmosphere can be long before the dungeon.  Much as an enemy fight that is basic and rote can be made interesting by correct lead in, so can a level or area.

Dracos