[Haruhi] Outcast

[Brian]

This story is written to try and appeal to readers who felt that Haruhi's treatment in At a Glance was unreasonable--  It is, thematically, attempting to achieve the same goal, but uses different tools to accomplish that.  That is to say, instead of the story centering around a physical disability and the reactions to it, a different route was taken.

What should have been a simple oneshot took a life of its own, so I've cut it into three pieces.  Feedback is, naturally, appreciated.

Edit: Typo fixes and minor changes.

[Arakawa]

Hmm, pondering the contrast with AAG somewhat. Spoilered for safety.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm not sure what the precise crux of the problem with AAG was. (From where I stood, maaybe there was some stretching of disbelief needed for Haruhi to be so oblivious / Kyon to be so laid back about his situation and so convincing to Haruhi that nothing's wrong, and if stretched a certain way it might create unpleasant implications. I don't know.) Here there are good reasons for everyone acting the way they do.

As for the ending, it was interesting. Neat to see Koizumi's role in things; as for there being this other school which is more nice, it seemed a bit implausible given the tone of what came earlier, at least the way things were presented. (Though, why question a happy ending?) I'm not sure if there's something that could be done to develop how it can be so without going through heavy exposition about Japanese society.

I think it's a solid fic. The bleakness is offset nicely by the tone of the ending. In terms of how Haruhi develops and whether it's realistic for her to back off from her unreasonable behaviour so soon, I was a bit too caught up in Kyon's problems to keep track. It does seem that she does it more gradually than in AAG (where her selfishness was driven home all in one huge screwup on her part), which is probably an improvement.

Figured out the overall game very quickly, by the way. I think knowing that there might be a game, though, and knowing Future Boy Conan to pinpoint the time period, gave me a huge headstart.

That aside, "observing the Suzumiya Haruhi in her native environment" didn't work stylistically. If not a straight-up typo, needs some kind of adjective e.g. "the mysterious Suzumiya Haruhi" or "the elusive Suzumiya Haruhi".

[Brian]

Hmm, pondering the contrast with AAG somewhat. Spoilered for safety.

Hmmm....  No good mashup involving 'spoiler' and 'safety dance'.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm not sure what the precise crux of the problem with AAG was. (From where I stood, maaybe there was some stretching of disbelief needed for Haruhi to be so oblivious / Kyon to be so laid back about his situation and so convincing to Haruhi that nothing's wrong, and if stretched a certain way it might create unpleasant implications. I don't know.) Here there are good reasons for everyone acting the way they do.

As presented to me, the reasons were basically that Haruhi was forced and emotionally manipulated with the tool of public humiliation.  Kyon's overt threat to try and stand up for Mikuru evidently made him a wholly unsympathetic character and caused everything following that confrontation to fall flat, culminating in an observation that Haruhi would probably have just rewritten reality rather than face the humiliation.  I can ... understand that PoV, but feel it actually sells Haruhi's resiliance and ability to grow too short; it's not my take on her character, even if I can see how it could be someone else's.

Maybe there's a fic idea where every time Haruhi screws up she rewrites reality and dismisses it as a bad dream; she's not the Ace we all thought she was.  It's just that no one remembers, and Endless Eight wasn't anything special at all....  But that seems a bit too grim.  I prefer more positive stories, generally.  >_>

But I digress.

This fic is meant to sidestep the issue by leaving Haruhi free from coersion and public humiliation, while accomplishing the same thematic goal; Haruhi's PoV shifts thanks to seeing the trials that someone else endures, and she grows as a person as a result.  The hope is that by avoiding putting pressure on her, it feels more neutral, and that she _is_ growing as a character by making her own choices without being forced to conform.

As for the ending, it was interesting. Neat to see Koizumi's role in things; as for there being this other school which is more nice, it seemed a bit implausible given the tone of what came earlier, at least the way things were presented. (Though, why question a happy ending?) I'm not sure if there's something that could be done to develop how it can be so without going through heavy exposition about Japanese society.

Hmm, yeah.  It's heavily edutainment as it is; I could write a bit about how the school is in a dowa district, imply that many of the students there were buraku as well.  If the plausibility seems strained, I'll look into what I can do on that count.

I think it's a solid fic. The bleakness is offset nicely by the tone of the ending. In terms of how Haruhi develops and whether it's realistic for her to back off from her unreasonable behaviour so soon, I was a bit too caught up in Kyon's problems to keep track. It does seem that she does it more gradually than in AAG (where her selfishness was driven home all in one huge screwup on her part), which is probably an improvement.

I ... think that's good?  If Kyon's issues preclude you from saying, "This feels off," then I may have been doing something right.  If Haruhi's behavior changes too quickly, there's still room to adjust, though.

Figured out the overall game very quickly, by the way. I think knowing that there might be a game, though, and knowing Future Boy Conan to pinpoint the time period, gave me a huge headstart.

Googling any of the dated reference would hammer it home, I think.

That aside, "observing the Suzumiya Haruhi in her native environment" didn't work stylistically. If not a straight-up typo, needs some kind of adjective e.g. "the mysterious Suzumiya Haruhi" or "the elusive Suzumiya Haruhi".

Hmmm, neither of those quite work.  I wanted it to come across as an anthropologist studying her, but if the 'the' makes it jarring....  What about 'enigmatic'?

[JonBob]

Just some C&C and quick thoughts:

Spoiler: ShowHide

"And you don't have a gakuran style high school uniform anyway, do you?" she concluded with a sigh, eyes hooded.
Completely missed that the first time through. I actually stopped and thought about it then went on my way slightly confused.

"I think I should say thanks for falling on that sword for the rest of us, Kyon!"
Ahaha, oh Taniguchi...

"Suzumiya-san," I said flatly, releasing the older girl and standing straight once once Suzumiya was thwarted, the upperclassman curled into a ball at my feet.
once once

At any rate, once it was done and Suzumiya settled the check, we walked outside, where she she pulled some lengths of red yarn from her shoulder-bag, tucking them into a fist with just half of the ends protruding.
she she. Also, kind of a long sentence

"R...really," she said slowly, finally ducking her head and staring at her feet, "that's true. Almost ... more than anything I'd like to be friends with Suzumiya-san because of who I was not ... being a time-traveler."
Kind of odd flow, especially with the last ellipsis

I'll see you two at school tomorrow -- for Kyon's penalty, he's carrying his bag for me
his bag?

Taniguchi perked up slightly, distracted from me by the upperclassman's presence.
class rep's presence?

That added the question of my nickname spread faster than wildfire to the list, but that was a minor concern.
Awkward, do you mean "... my nickname spreading faster than... "?


Mostly what strikes me is that Kyon seems to (rightfully) have self-esteem issues. You also sprinkle in the money issues, which really comes into play with the first SoS outing. Also, the conspicuous lack of Koizumi is intriguing, wondering where and when he'll show up.

Lots of build up with hints of negativity through the first two parts, then a lot of bad to start the third part. You nail it pretty well, but it seems like it's not that bad simply b/c it happens so fast (to us and Kyon) before you start to pull the nose up. I like Koizumi in the absence of Haruhi, actually. He does seem like one of the "popular kids" but you're showing a lot more outside that in her absence.

As for the comparison to AaG, I feel that fic has Kyon as more of an equal to Haruhi sooner, standing up to her, being friendly but initially aloof a bit. In that way, she's forced to grow a bit faster since she's being "challenged". This fic, it seems like it's more that she's forced to see the world in a different light faster, particularly with Kyon's situation. So, the growth is slower but still steady.

[Brian]

Just some C&C and quick thoughts:

Thanks for taking the time to comment. :)

Spoiler: ShowHide

"And you don't have a gakuran style high school uniform anyway, do you?" she concluded with a sigh, eyes hooded.
Completely missed that the first time through. I actually stopped and thought about it then went on my way slightly confused.

So, you caught that reference/foreshadowing? :p

"Suzumiya-san," I said flatly, releasing the older girl and standing straight once once Suzumiya was thwarted, the upperclassman curled into a ball at my feet.
once once

Oops.  Got this and the other duplicate words.

At any rate, once it was done and Suzumiya settled the check, we walked outside, where she she pulled some lengths of red yarn from her shoulder-bag, tucking them into a fist with just half of the ends protruding.
she she. Also, kind of a long sentence

Revised:

At any rate, once it was done and Suzumiya settled the check, we walked outside, where she pulled some lengths of red yarn from her shoulder-bag.  With great flair, she tucked them into a fist with just half of the ends protruding.

"R...really," she said slowly, finally ducking her head and staring at her feet, "that's true. Almost ... more than anything I'd like to be friends with Suzumiya-san because of who I was not ... being a time-traveler."
Kind of odd flow, especially with the last ellipsis

I liked the key point there, though, so ... revised:

"R...really," she said slowly, finally ducking her head and staring at her feet, "that's true.  Almost more than anything I'd like to be friends with Suzumiya-san!  If it was because of who I was and not ... being a time-traveler, then that would be even better!"

I'll see you two at school tomorrow -- for Kyon's penalty, he's carrying his bag for me
his bag?

Taniguchi perked up slightly, distracted from me by the upperclassman's presence.
class rep's presence?

Oops to both of those....

That added the question of my nickname spread faster than wildfire to the list, but that was a minor concern.
Awkward, do you mean "... my nickname spreading faster than... "?

Yep!  Fixing....

Mostly what strikes me is that Kyon seems to (rightfully) have self-esteem issues. You also sprinkle in the money issues, which really comes into play with the first SoS outing. Also, the conspicuous lack of Koizumi is intriguing, wondering where and when he'll show up.

Lots of build up with hints of negativity through the first two parts, then a lot of bad to start the third part. You nail it pretty well, but it seems like it's not that bad simply b/c it happens so fast (to us and Kyon) before you start to pull the nose up. I like Koizumi in the absence of Haruhi, actually. He does seem like one of the "popular kids" but you're showing a lot more outside that in her absence.

I'm okay with most of that.  I don't want to wallow in angst, but if things seems too rushed from Kyon withdrawing from Kitago, I can probably work on them a bit.

As for the comparison to AaG, I feel that fic has Kyon as more of an equal to Haruhi sooner, standing up to her, being friendly but initially aloof a bit. In that way, she's forced to grow a bit faster since she's being "challenged". This fic, it seems like it's more that she's forced to see the world in a different light faster, particularly with Kyon's situation. So, the growth is slower but still steady.

That's pretty much the goal, so that's great. :D

Thanks again for taking the time to leave feedback!

[Grahf]

Didn't manage to get any particular spelling foibles that haven't already been pointed out, so I'll just give some of my thoughts.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I knew that something was off, although I didn't catch the time displacement fully until the mention of Space Invaders, which finally clued me in. I feel sort of silly given that I probably should have realized after Haruhi mentioned the decade and a half after the "I Have a Dream" speech, but I suppose that catching on a little later is still better than not at all.

I think that perhaps the initial change in Haruhi's attitude might have been the most jarring. That is to say it was a little strange (to me at least) that she backed down regarding her treatment of Mikuru after Kyon confronted her about it. I chalked it up partly to the different period, and that even though Haruhi is still Haruhi that she wouldn't be as extreme as her modern day counterpart in some regards. Every change after that one though I feel works well and comes off as organic. She'd be the first to realize/care about his social status, just not in the way that he expected her to.

More dubiously your story gets the honour of having one of the only incarnations of Ryoko that I utterly despise. I don't really get how I'm okay with her trying to gut him like a fish, but for some reason the whole character assassination thing and then being so smug about it just grossed me out. Needless to say I was pleased when you had Haruhi deck her in the face. Part of me envisions a somewhat mean-spirited potential follow up where Ryoko has to transfer to Hikami Gakuen because that's where Haruhi went. Still, that seems a little excessive, even if it's completely deserved.

In regards to the overall goal of this work I'd say that you've made it work. It struck me that in this case there's actually a strong juxtaposition with AaG because this time while Kyon has a stigma attached to him it's one that doesn't get him sympathy from most people -- except Haruhi and the rest of the SOS-Brigade of course -- his own humiliation is as hard to stomach, but in this case it's unfortunately "justified" by the bias of the period.

As a somewhat idol thought, I would have liked to have seen a brief cut back to Haruhi's point of view when she learns about what happened. I don't see a way to get that in without interrupting the flow though, and also sort of ruining the surprise of her and the others showing up at the new school. I still think that even without it there's obvious and measurable character development by her here, and by Kyon as well. By the end it looks like he might finally be able to move past the stigma associated with where he came from, or at least not have to live in fear of it anymore.

Good work as always. Not really much more I can say in any regard.

[Brian]

Didn't manage to get any particular spelling foibles that haven't already been pointed out, so I'll just give some of my thoughts.

There are unfortunately a few more.  I've found some of them, but I'll let it cool a few days so I can come back to it with fresher eyes, outside of what others spot. :p

Spoiler: ShowHide

I knew that something was off, although I didn't catch the time displacement fully until the mention of Space Invaders, which finally clued me in. I feel sort of silly given that I probably should have realized after Haruhi mentioned the decade and a half after the "I Have a Dream" speech, but I suppose that catching on a little later is still better than not at all.

I put in a lot of references, but didn't want it to be too overstated....

I think that perhaps the initial change in Haruhi's attitude might have been the most jarring. That is to say it was a little strange (to me at least) that she backed down regarding her treatment of Mikuru after Kyon confronted her about it. I chalked it up partly to the different period, and that even though Haruhi is still Haruhi that she wouldn't be as extreme as her modern day counterpart in some regards. Every change after that one though I feel works well and comes off as organic. She'd be the first to realize/care about his social status, just not in the way that he expected her to.

Hmmm.  That one might benefit from a bit more work.  The idea is that Haruhi's not used to being approached reasonably from someone trying to be objective and fair; Kyon getting her to see things from another PoV instead of just telling her it's wrong should have more influence on her.  But if it's clumsily done, I can see what else I can do.  I think Haruhi taking Kyon's thoughts and running with them (basically, saying she'll protect Mikuru in the future) is good, but probably the actual confrontation can use something to show she's actually engaged because it's a discussion, not just someone criticizing or denouncing her.

Part of the key to that is that Kyon has to use generalizations and vagueries, because he doesn't know what happened (and as he says, that makes it difficult for him to judge).

The time period does have a lot of influence -- sexism is particularly strong in Japan at that point as well, though not as bad as it had been in the past.  (It's still actually not great, but....)  Among other things, I couldn't see Haruhi trying to pull the bunny costume thing in the setting, or really any analog of it. :x

More dubiously your story gets the honour of having one of the only incarnations of Ryoko that I utterly despise. I don't really get how I'm okay with her trying to gut him like a fish, but for some reason the whole character assassination thing and then being so smug about it just grossed me out. Needless to say I was pleased when you had Haruhi deck her in the face. Part of me envisions a somewhat mean-spirited potential follow up where Ryoko has to transfer to Hikami Gakuen because that's where Haruhi went. Still, that seems a little excessive, even if it's completely deserved.

Ryouko's punishment, as such, is that her observation target is well out of her range, and there's no real way for her to follow.  Her moving to Hikami Gakuen would probably just be unpleasant for everyone.

My guess for why this Ryouko is even less likable is that firstly, trying to kill Kyon demonstrated a lack of understanding for what she was actually doing (and she even said as much during that scene).  Secondly, when she tried to stab Kyon, she was stopped before she could do damage.  Here, she shows that she does understand what she's doing (at least to a degree, to manipulate the social scene), and Nagato couldn't stop her because it wasn't violent enough to warrant intervention.

In total, this (plus the smugness) make her come across as condescending instead of confused.  One could be misguided, and orange/blue morality.  The other is just a terrible person.  Unfortunately, this type of fic demands that someone be villainized.  The only alternative to that would be Tsuruya, and it's a stretch to justify her even investigating on her own....

In regards to the overall goal of this work I'd say that you've made it work. It struck me that in this case there's actually a strong juxtaposition with AaG because this time while Kyon has a stigma attached to him it's one that doesn't get him sympathy from most people -- except Haruhi and the rest of the SOS-Brigade of course -- his own humiliation is as hard to stomach, but in this case it's unfortunately "justified" by the bias of the period.

Well, I wanted to put Haruhi/the others on the same side instead of making it an internal schism.  I think it worked, and I'm also glad it's different, so that hopefully even if it has the same thematic goal, it's a different story, not just a straight inversion or the like.

As a somewhat idol thought, I would have liked to have seen a brief cut back to Haruhi's point of view when she learns about what happened. I don't see a way to get that in without interrupting the flow though, and also sort of ruining the surprise of her and the others showing up at the new school. I still think that even without it there's obvious and measurable character development by her here, and by Kyon as well. By the end it looks like he might finally be able to move past the stigma associated with where he came from, or at least not have to live in fear of it anymore.

Hmmmm.  I do have a sequel lined up for this (kind of a WAFFy follow-up -- should be much shorter) that addresses Haruhi's comment to Kyon about seeing him before (in a gakuran, along with a girl who kept her hair back with a ribbon), and basically handles the plot of bamboo leaf rhapsody.  It's basically the equivelant to Distant Glimpses, but for the Outcast universe.  I suppose this story's follow-up could be from Haruhi's PoV, instead.  There is a bit to explore with her having that argument with her parents, and showing more of Yuki/Mikuru's thoughts on Kyon's ostracization.

Food for thought, but it'll probably be a bit before I get around to yet another WAFFy oneshot. ;)

Good work as always. Not really much more I can say in any regard.

And thanks again for taking the time to comment~! :)

[Specular]

Thanks for a very interesting reading, it must have taken quite a bit of research. I was about say the story needs an epilogue but the planned sequel from Haruhi's PoV sounds like a much better idea.

Technical stuff:

Spoiler: ShowHide

First chapter:

"I'd rather just avoid making the mistake in the first place.

Missing quotation mark.

Depite everything, her spirit wasn't bent in the slightest. A little bit, I had to admire her resolve!

Depite → Despite

"Yes," she said dryly. "And if you've never seen or one before, I don't have the time to show you how to use it properly anyway." Shaking her head, she muttered, "I swear, what small village did you come from before moving to Nishinomiya?"

never seen or one before → never seen one before



Second chapter:

It was a feeling I was very comfortable with, actually. Ignored is better than overly scrutinized, to me. I could could only guess she felt very different.

could could → could



Third chapter:

The new costume was a gakuran-style uniform, more militaristic than the the relaxed suits worn at Kitago, but somehow comfortably familiar. It wasn't that different from my middle school uniform, really.

the the → the

Now I wonder if there is fanart of Yuki wearing old-styled glasses...

[Brian]

Thanks for a very interesting reading, it must have taken quite a bit of research. I was about say the story needs an epilogue but the planned sequel from Haruhi's PoV sounds like a much better idea.

The research was actually really fun, for the time period.  The cultural factors were more intensely sobering.  I tend to probably overresearch things in general, though.

Spoiler: ShowHide

First chapter:

"Yes," she said dryly. "And if you've never seen or one before, I don't have the time to show you how to use it properly anyway." Shaking her head, she muttered, "I swear, what small village did you come from before moving to Nishinomiya?"

never seen or one before → never seen one before

Ah, missing word 'used'.

Thanks for the catches; weirdly, a lot of double words.  Not sure how I did that....

Now I wonder if there is fanart of Yuki wearing old-styled glasses...

There's a thought!

Thanks again for taking the time to comment. :)