Feedback time!

[Anastasia]

The answer I got was that there were different levels of understanding what is good. And I can't speak against it, because Good gods just know better. Faced with this situation, I'd rather try to help the dude and ignore the celestials until they need my help against a common enemy.

I didn't say you couldn't speak against it. As I recall, the point being made is that it's reasonable to assume that beings with near infinite experience and mental scores compared to you are probably going to have a purer view of things, and a more cosmically oriented one to boot.  You're worried about the mortal problems of good, they're worried about more eternal problems. *shrugs*

I asl recall you were trying to make it that one side or the other was wrong, but I don't recall and I don't have logs handy.

Amusingly, the one angel who is helping us got promoted. Even though I was there for it, I like to imagine it went this way: "Congratulations, Latha! For all the good that you've done on Prime we're rewarding you by, err, sending you away. Yes, it's totally a promotion!"

Hahaha, that made me laugh out loud in a good way.

Working with valued mortals who have done much to fight the good fight? It's like you find a way to nitpick even when the Heavens do something to help you. <_<

[Corwin]

The 'spellcasting is a class feature' bit is, well, it's sophistry. If you go into that, then I feel we might as well add 'bab is a class feature, don't allow +to hit items'. Yours is also easily the strongest character, and one who has the highest CL and spell level, so I'm not sure how having a couple SLAs carefully selected for approval by Dune and not bought at the corner store would possibly show you up. In fact, nothing prevents you from getting them too, and as charisma is your primary casting stat you could actually make the combat spellgems such as fireball viable. Again, this argument is sophistry for as long as items granting the effects of spells exist in the game world, as this part of your argument would apply to them just as much as it does to spellgems.

You're going into why spellgems are better than items. Yes, they are, but I had a specific case outlined and your post doesn't address it in seriousness, staying to general points instead. Spellgems have higher DCs and CLs. This is true! But can you show me where it actually practically matters with DD? Going by our past encounters, each such exception where the difference comes up would be esoteric and warrant a price hike, but not place the spellgem of DD in a class of its own over a slotless item of DD. And DD is but one example.

On another topic, I'm not even sure if you're doing it intentionally, but is needling me at certain times necessary? Whenever I present my ideas or goals, you don't just disagree, you present your counter argument with puzzlement at how I could even come up with the things I did. Endless problems that have plagued the world for all of history? That it's a a world without Wish and tangible Good and Evil aside, which makes a certain difference, this can be a drain on enthusiasm. You can pass the torch when it's time, sure enough, and I'd hardly try to rope you into world-building, but why must you describe the alternative that I'm interested in with sarcasm and borderline derision? If it's on purpose, can we do something to get along on these topics better? I'm certainly very interested in giving it a good effort and trying. If it's not, can you, I dunno, try not to give the appearance like my goals don't matter? I'll reciprocate in whatever ways I can to get rid of annoyances you could identify with me that I can do something about.

[Anastasia]

So to summarize, I don't get the sense that you even see that my view was possible. You call me defensive, which is entirely true, but I get defensive because I feel you don't accept my interpretation of the situation and events leading up to it. I accept that I was wrong, since it's kind of hard not to. It's the reasons leading up to me being wrong that I dispute, and I get offended when I'm called blind in that situation. My reasoning clashed with yours, trying to buy a clue didn't succeed. Other than changing, what else can I do?

And it would be impossible for me to take if this view was expressed IC in the game. Congrats to those who caught on, but I don't want to be needled about it.

There's two forks of discussion here, both which are valid and should be addressed in time.

The first is the question of how far and how much the DM should tell you things and interdict in your favor. This is always a difficult balance to strike.  You're right, maybe I should have offered you a knowledge check about the fey. On the other hand, it's reasonable enough to assume that you'd consider that bringing an evil incarnation of winter to good aligned fey and fey/nature aligned creatures(like unicorns) isn't such a hot idea. So where do I draw the line there? If a PC makes a mistake, should I correct it? I can't even broach the subject of it without tipping my hand and giving you a clue. I'm supposed to be the impartial storyteller. I shouldn't really be handing out advice on how to make judgment calls and avoid mistakes. So what should give?

I don't know. It's also easy to debate about it after the fact, as hindsight has this irritating trick of being 20/20.  Should the DM be the PCs common sense, to borrow something you showed me today?

The second is the dismissive-ness of your take on what happened. The fact that what happened did so happen does say you made mistakes, yeah. We don't disagree there. I told you had to decide for yourself because it wasn't my place to tell you how to deal with another character, especially one so deeply invested as Neve. It was simply your choice to make, on how to interpret events and react to them.  I'm not trying to be dismissive of your view. It just...mmmm.  I guess this routes somewhat back to the first fork, too.

[Ebiris]

Well, I don't think the dimension door one is a great example for comparing spellgems with items because it doesn't take advantage of the big assets that SLAs have over items. However, since it's a perfect 'escape' spell, it's also vastly superior to an item in a 'captured and looted and gagged' scenario, and I don't think that should be underestimated. Or even in the simple 'it's in my bag/I left it at the house' scenario. There are plenty of circumstances where you can be bereft of an item, but aside from straight-up antimagic (where you have way more problems than missing out on one SLA), you're never going to be seperated from your spellgem.

As for needling you, I apologise if it comes across that way, it's just how I debate - if I'm going to be expressing support for A then it's appropriate to point out why I don't support B. However, I'll try and watch my language in future to not come across so unpleasantly.

[Corwin]

Well. You have NPCs. They can have conflicting opinions, and not even represent you. If you use them as advisors who go into both sides, I would have all the facts, without any sense of being pulled into a direction you're 'directing' me into. If you're iffy on checks, a healthy IC discussion could work. Even OOC clues from them, MST3K style, if you'd like, much like you did in the hooks thread for NPCs and respective plot hooks they like/dislike.

Also, I honestly didn't consider evil fey to hate good fey more than boring people who deserve death. Plus you know I'm weak at alignment issues, I've told you this before. I would've expected Neve to hate on those she wouldn't consider worthy, like weak goblins, more than some decent CR beings. But even if I knew, then giving me a check wouldn't have changed anything. Either I don't know as a player but my character should/might, or I already know and the check confirms what I know. Where's the harm? You're not telling me not to do it, after all, just what doing it might cause or what risks it may carry. Also, in this specific case, I actually asked you (twice, I think, over the course of the entire thing) for said common sense. That's somewhat different than providing it unprompted and getting carried away.

Also, when you say "I'm not dismissive of your thought process, I'm just..." and don't finish, it doesn't sound convincing.  >_>

I went based on several assumptions. That she'd made progress already, that she was there of her own will, that she would find the unicorns unique since Rose was like the first we ever met on Prime, that she had plenty of other choices that didn't involve a fight to the death deep in enemy territory, so outgunned and with no way back, that she just plain might've liked me enough for me to try. There's more, and some of these have been proven to be wrong, but didn't I arrive to them through monofocus and blindness.

[Corwin]

A good point on the escape spell aspect synergizing really well with one of the scenarios I listed as fringe. I still think that it's nothing cash can't fix, a lot of cash here since it matters, but that aside... it was really just a mistake on my side to use it as example. What if I use the Shield Other spell as example for Deme and Polly, since Deme's used the spell on her before? The Rings of Friend Shielding or however that pair of items is called is actually better than the spell, even with scaling CL. If you use my case but sub in DD with Shield Other, wouldn't it work?

Again, a key component of my argument is that Dune arbitrates what works. I doubt there'd be any hurt feelings from not being able to buy a 'cool' gem if it's too powerful or too useful for its projected price.

[Ebiris]

I think Shield Other is a horrible spell, so I guess I wouldn't object. Honestly, we're not that far off from each other here - we both think inherent stuff is cooler than stuff you wear, and that receiving such stuff as GM-mandated boons is cool. My biggest objection is having them made to order. You're right that having our buddies give us some predetermined swag we can ingest is on the same principle as getting something from our deity or whatever. But when you get into the realm of having a free choice it's kinda like saying 'hey, I can be a sorcerer except I don't need to build up from crappy low level spells and don't need to take levels in a class with no other features'.

[Corwin]

Right. Since I feel much closer to Prime than to the Heavens, I'd prefer to get 'rewarded' from them, myself. The core of what I liked was the concept of the spellgems, not the actual ability to tailor and custom-make them, so as long as somehow useful things are sometimes given to us without us ordering them, I'll be quite happy. Just as long as they don't make gems of Locate Object.

[Ebiris]

On the topic of things we dislike? I don't like how Spot gets used to see terrain features. I've complained about this before but it never seems to stick... Anyway, the skill itself is supposed to be used for noticing hidden characters or creatures. If there's a tree at the other end of a field half a mile away, a spot check is appropriate for noticing a monster hiding in the branches. The tree itself should be plain to see. It just feels immensely retarded for there to be a big treasure strewn stone platform floating freely in the void, with nothing in the way to obscure our view, and having only the person able to hit a DC 40 spot check notice it, vainly pointing it out as the rest of the party drool and squint and wonder if he's perhaps gone insane and started seeing things.