The Gossip Board

[Carthrat]

I'm totally a humanoid!

If I was an outsider, I wouldn't need to sleep and that'd be cool.

[Anastasia]

Mari: Maybe. Dune, is it practical to get either mount through the portal and down the pit we made to Hardsoil?

You could but it would take a bit of work. Once he got down to the passage to Hardsoil it would be very doable. Note that much of Earth can be narrow, the sections you've been in have been relatively wide and accommodating. You haven't had to dig your own paths ahead, either.

Knight's type is Outsider(Native, Pokemon, SEIBA), if you're curious.

[Carthrat]

Hey, since we all wander around the planes, wouldn't that make us all vulnerable to banishment/dismissal stuff?

[Anastasia]

In theory yes. Whenever you're on a plane that isn't your native one, you have the extraplanar subtype. Banishment and Dismissal can return you back to whence you came.

[Carthrat]

Hmm. Well, Knight is probably from Limbo, or some random prime material plane. (ravenloft!!1)

As for horsing around, well, the gravity thing makes it pretty harsh as well, but... let's make an inquiry with the caravan as to our route? If they think a horse won't pose a significant problem, I'd be up for it- after all, I guess they have wagons and stuff so moving bulky things around would be a necessary consideration.

And if it in a downwards direction, that's important too.

[Carthrat]

(psst GI/K:P people, help me with this!)

[Sierra]

I was gonna say that any caravan routes likely follow (relatively) safe, manageable passages. As long as we can get an animal to Hardsoil, we're probably good.

[Anastasia]

Not ot derail the conversation going on right now, but how do you guys feel each of you is doing in battle?

[Sierra]

Adequately! Though I look forward to next level when I can potentially start dealing 24d6+8 (+4 fire!) damage a round. Mari's pretty straightforward, so there's not a ton to say. I should do something about my AC. It's pretty unspecial when not buffed.

I boggle sometimes at the shenanigans Kam pulls out, but stretching the system to do crazy shit just seems to be Drac's thing.

[Carthrat]

I thought I was doing pretty good, but then I had to see what happens when I'm next to Kamvakua and I'm not mounted. It sort of bummed me out how completely and utterly he dominated me (and everyone else's) performance in combat.

For all I know Knight was doing the same thing to other people beforehand, but I've always keenly felt my deficiencies, so.

Also: Cid, probably true, but it's an effort-free task to confirm (and the direction is important to me, too!)

[VySaika]

I'm doing fine. Adail is honestly a project character, so his specialty for now(ahahaha hit me or make me roll a save I dare you) is perfect. And other folks bring the damage I lack, so it's all good.

EDIT: Hey Dune, can we arrange for Adail to learn some kind of Shoryuken attack somehow? ^_^

[Dracos]

I went from non-combatant glass Miss Slaughtered (A good 6+ attribute points behind party average) to WELCOME TO THE SLAUGHTERHOUSE, TAKE A RIDE ON THE KAMTRAIN (leading the party notably and twinked with assistance for maximized asskicking)?  It's pretty awesome as much as there's a lot less for me to do outside of combat than before and I don't generally take the angle that I should get to be super awesome at skills, combat, and diplomacy.

Frankly, yes, I torture the system when given a chance.  I really hope that's not a problem.  :)  I have fun with the game from a tactical standpoint.  Builds like kamvakua are, unlike wizards, not flexible generally to changing to nerf their area, but inside their area are brutally effective.  Ayane was a similar style of build, based around improved disarm rather than improved trip, but in either case, I've always taken the stance that to really be effective, you need to be mostly focused towards your combat 'trick' being effectively always usable wherever it'd make sense to use.  

Knight's trick, weirdly, is not used very often, and with a significant portion of rat's resources and character build sunk into it, it's really not surprising at all that you feel uncompetitive there. :(  

As others have mentioned, I feel super effective in combat.  It's neat. :)  AC and saving throws scares me though.  Despite having hundreds of hp, practically nothing ever misses me and it's really a battle of time taking out the enemies before they can dish enough damage out.  Despite my brutal effectiveness, I've taken the lion's share of damage back from enemies and pretty much anything that can get through my circle of death is up for happy times as far as stabbing me (Raging AC -3 takes a middling ac right into poor.  charging lowers it below to hit for many enemies).  I really could use Knight being up front using her 10 points higher AC to deflect some of that damage away to nothing.  I could also use more meaningful healing around.  Either way, probably going to sink actually gained resources into defense.  It's impossible to have a good defense with Kamvakua, but hopefully something moderate.

Character wise, I've been leading the charge with Kamvakua more than I would've liked and using rage more than I would've liked.  I wanted to play him more conservatively (Yeah, I'm not that conservative), which was somewhat of the focus of his combat build and what was done with the salamanders (Do less damage in exchange for less risk, but still be able to extinguish and weaken combat potential).  I probably shouldn't have immediately used it on the salamanders but was still going with Dune's passed along 'these guys are dangerous' mantra.  I wanted to, and still want to, play more supportive/cooperative with Kamvakua.  He has a fair bit of his build based around it with knocking folks down for others to dish out free hits on, or joining in on flanks with Mari (Yay for first flank since he joined the party~) or playing giant and small guy with Adail.  I may try and reduce using rage in general even though it is a core build component until we actually take real damage (Which I suppose Kamvakua had or we were in genuine danger both times...).

Anyhow, thoughts on others...

Knight I commented on a bit above, but I think rat's had trouble shining a little for a lot of reasons.  The plane alignment hinders his heavy armor based build more than the rest of us, even if we haven't paid much attention to it.  Us having to chase enemies rather than enemies coming to us really advantages the speed based fighters over knight (Who barely got to enter the last couple of battles).  Her combat trick has largely been neutralized in almost every fight (and that's really more than 15 percent of the build there).  Her high ac is irrelevant in light of how few attacks actually come her way (When she should be able to wade safely into things the rest of us fear by having such a ridiculously high AC).  Even her preparedness having ranged arsenal doesn't end up mattering as we face enemies who require magic weapons to do much of anything (and she doesn't have a magic crossbow).  In other words, we've been doing a lot of fights where her advantages are nerfed and her disadvantages (Slow speed, lesser damage dealing, no special techniques on foot) are accented.  I don't think this is a build problem so much as an environment one and a resources one, worsened by the fact Knight has sunk all resources so far into things she hasn't gotten to use.

Mari I think has been doing pretty adequately.  I think you really have average AC rather than low, but I can understand wanting it higher.  Her challenge is not being able to flank quite enough, but she still does do it and lays out tremendous damage when she does.  She's a very solid rogue build really.

Nikkolai has gotten a couple of changes to abuse his diplotanking.  That's pretty cool, and he should keep doing that.  His haste really is helping make combat a lot more rapid pace than it'd other wise be.  I think if he keeps going with area Buffs and damage spells he can't really go very wrong.

Adail has been largely on clean up duty the last few fights.  It's hard for him to really do much else as his average total damage of 6.5 puts him well below both knight and Kamvakua's strength mod alone.  He can't flank or threaten, which significantly limits his ability to have much tactical influence.  He's a defensive beast, but as he's so tiny and can barely attract threat, it doesn't really come into play too often.  He has lots of minor utility, but really, without some levels and offensive boosts, he's really just best to abuse his magic missile (which at least averages 10.5 damage and never misses).  I think he's having fun with it regardless though as he's the type that is a good support guy :)

there, the draconian over-analysis.  and gate posts and proves my thoughts :)

[Carthrat]

Yeah, Drac summed it up pretty nicely. The plane has been inimical to me BUT I MUST GO THERE and so will struggle on. The only real way I feel comfortable here is by micromanaging myself in order to tweak every tiny little advantage out I can get out of the situation, and I naturally love to plan things out and plot strategy against my enemies in most games anyway.

I was thinking, and when Drac talks about Kam's build being defensive and more about denial than aggression, it's all relative. He looks very offensive to me on foot. I'm sure it will be the opposite when I'm not (a pegasus equipped with horseshoes of speed has a fly speed of 150ft, and I don't need to say how nuts that is.) I do think he's far more, I dunno, 'pick up and go' than Knight, able to function very well in most situations. Whereas his optimum is a closed space that bogs enemies down, Knight's is an open one with room to move. But I think he does better in her area than she does in his by an insane margin (and isn't limited by needing a mount there.) HOWEVER she has as-of-yet unknown exciting magical powers to acquire BUT he has spellcasting and uh I think it's all going to work out eventually, honestly, but we're so not going to another enclosed plane after we're done in the Earth.

By the way, Knight is becoming claustrophobic.

[Anastasia]

Regarding Knight/Kam: Yeah, some of it is situational and bad luck, though I think Kam's a touch too optimized here as well. We'll see how it works out.

[Dracos]

Notably, we left a plane where I technically have lots of disadvantages quickly (Everyone has decent move and perfect fly eliminates trip as an ability which eliminates my main combat trick) and set up to spend lots of time in a plane where I'm not getting disadvantaged by it and knight is getting totally nerfed.

I do get magic as things go on, but frankly the magic options are almost borderline pointless (Excepting the level 2 buff spells, but really, purchased potions or Nikkolai could do the same, and probably better).  They mostly don't even include heal spells, which suck as I could really use the ability to patch myself up after a fight.  The nasty upcoming thing will be greater rage and intimidating rage, which will generally leave all enemies constantly under the shaken debuff and let me dig myself into even a greater hole.  That said, the debuff something that benefits the party as a whole really and is a major feature of the PrC.

I think rat's slightly wrong in as much as we haven't had to mostly deal with truly claustrophobic setups much.  The xorn and the succubi both were some, and one went terribly and the other could've as well.  He's right, lots of obstacles help Kam.  I tend to think that Kamvakua's best setup is generally a 50-150 start range, with having reach advantage over his foes and preferrably a high, but present, ceiling so he doesn't have to deal with a lack of 3d attacks or space concerns if he rages.  He's been getting that on the last 2 sessions, and some of that just always since he's been made, only two fights starting in 30 foot start range.

Knight, off horseback, needs folks starting no further than 40 feet out.  If they are further, she can't even reach them to attack the first round.  A 100-200 foot distance and she's huffing and puffing to even arrive before Kamvakua, Mari, and Adail have ended the fight.  Truthfully, Knight off horseback is a suboptimal human fighter with very good stats and some magical special abilities that will continue to take her further above a normal human fighter.  But she's no more than that.  It's barely competitive with Mari (Who's outdamaged her in the last few fights I believe, has double her foot speed, and gets rogue level skills) much less Kamvakua.

Knight on horseback wants wide open spaces to a degree that completely evaporates the notion of obstacles.  She wants 500+ foot ceilings, 200-500 foot start distances, and the ability to separate and anhillate enemies from an obnoxiously unhittable standpoint (You can't even dispel magic as her flight isn't magical and she'll laugh at physical attacks coming her way.).  It's basically magic or a set pike (Good luck, knight has extra high to hit AND ac.  She has a good reason to take this bet repeatedly) or go home when she's on her new horse in her preferred environment.   She has 150 foot fly + full attack or 300 foot flying charge or ranged arsenal from above.  Her horse gets to join in as well as she attacks adding a moderate bit of extra damage.  On her flying horse, she's potentially on an entirely different stage of combat than the rest of the party.

Rat is totally right that odds are pretty much better to favor me given random unfavorable terrain (The planes in general).  Both of us are likely to have things nerfed, but I fall back to a barbarian with very high stats and reach and rat falls back to a fighter with high stats and several irrelevant feats.  The advantage is generally barbarians when fighters have their feats nerfed.  Of course, as rat gets more supernatural spell effects, that will become less and less true.

The elemental planes, while neat, are generally more hostile to knight's build than the rest of us, just by the general rules of how penalties are applied and the fact that 'large open sky' is apparently rare on 3/4th of the elemental planes.  The celestial planes, while probably inappropriate for game direction, are very favorable to knight's build generally.

Anyhow, maybe I shouldn't yammer off a midnight flight :P  But the general flow does make me sad and annoyed, but maybe I'm overreacting(Yes, analytical, but I do totally do that :P).  My instant thought over it is I'm going to be encouraged to ignore Knight trying to RP sensibly about the constrained environment and suggest we always bring the horse and thus self-select routes that allow the horse, because without it these questions show right up.  I already did so jokingly, but now I have extra incentive to say it's a bad idea to go somewhere she can't bring her horse.  anyhow, yammer yammer.