Feedback- Toss a bone~

[Carthrat]

Blowing a fear check is always depressing, so less chance of that is nice.

(will bell ironically fail a fear check in the future?)

Do kinda wonder what we got rewarded for?...

[Dracos]

Overall, I liked the last session in general.  It was a cute side trip that introduced a bit of Arborean culture while simultaneously addressing in game that hardsoil was doing well.  It set the tone on how even in mortals, we can both be awesome and have a long way to go, with a single eladrin able to compete reasonably with the entire team.  It gave Kam an opportunity to pull in some background narrative on his own tribal history, so yay for opportunities to use our backstory to fuel the narrative in game.

Cheers to Nikki for being unrepentant in his constant flirting with anything female.  Yes, In character Kam was being 'boo that', but hey, you don't have an argument if everyone acts agreeably.  Adail got to do neat "I take on overwhelming challenge in a meaningful contest of skill" too.

I admit, I've never seen Chameleon used in game as a PrC.  But then I suppose there's so many PrCs, that there's plenty I've only read and never seen used.

I really like the choice of thematic benefits.  Freedom as a minor bonus to saving throws is something that may hardly ever come up mechanically, but it certainly is something I cheer from going well with Kam's theme of a free journeyman sage.

And most importantly...I was awake the whole time!  :D

[Dracos]

Random additional observation on last session:

The Save DCs for cleric spells in this party are always going to be garbage.  Both clerical types are heavy non-caster multiclassed and not much we can do about it.  We're not going to ever beat anything that can even throw a saving throw out.

[Anastasia]

Well, save DCs aren't affected by multiclassing directly. The DC for a spell is spell level + ability mod + 10. Indirectly it affects them since they're multiclassed so they have lower level spells available than average, but.

[Dracos]

Prolly true.

Not necessarily saying anything is wrong.  Just observing that anything coming with us with comparable saving throws to what we have is only targetable by nikkolai with spells.

[Anastasia]

Magic in general struggles in a planar setting. Spell resistance is more common, most things have really good saving throws and can resist damage or certain save or suck/die strategies.

[Carthrat]

Our saving throws are kinda a bit inflated. The way multiclassing stacks them is pretty henious.

Wizards/sorcs/etc can cheat around enemy magical defense via pretty much the entire Conjuration school. It honestly seems like a shame, but what can you do?

[Dracos]

Randomness: with all the discussion of money, greed, death, and large figures being tossed around lately, I did a brief count that actually was convenient for staying grounded.

Practically speaking and ignoring Knight's expensively purchased new class feature, the whole group sits between 55k and 65k of wealth, so just around the level 10-level 11 suggested wealth bracket.  Yeah, we have our desire to gather general wealth to be better protected/deadly for our clearly fearsome foes, but kind of nice seeing how relatively evenly wealth is managing about, even on characters who I thought would be way behind.

heh, I post it and I neglect my intended 'Good going, Ko'.

Bah, feedback :)

[Anastasia]

I usually just give out what feels right and overwealth, so.

[Anastasia]

A few questions.

1. How do you feel your characters have grown in play? Do you like these changes? Why or why not?

2. How do you feel the other characters have changed? Do they live up to themselves? Why or why not?

3. We have a celestial and an exalted good PC in party. How do you feel they interact with others and represent the concept of Good?  Does this fit for you? Edit: This isn't meant to call them out, but to provoke discussion on the matter.

4. How do you feel the plot is going relative to these three questions?

[Carthrat]

Changes are a bit hard to talk about, a lot of what I think has changed in my own char might not be evident to others, and vice versa. But anyway...

1. Eh, I feel Knight's okay. Maybe kinda overbearing on a frequent basis. She doesn't grow that much, it's sort of by design. Recently, with the Balance thing coming up, it was put to her as a kind of dichotomy, who would she choose, her family or friends? I guess I didn't see it as big a deal then, because it feels like she can actually have both at the moment. It's still something worth struggling over, though, and the focal point of her decision-making at this time. Since she strives for people she has attachments to and not ideals, the choice will always be 'can I help everyone? will they be alright with my actions?' It's something that can be best displayed when people she cares about are put at odds.

She resolved it with Balance and came out ahead, but I dunno if that will always be the same. As always, she's willing to fulfill her objective by force if her family doesn't listen to reason, so...

Basically I think she has a strong desire to keep her comrades intact and alive, help them fulfill their desires, and she's willing to do whatever is necessary to get it done, and at this point it's not just out of mutual need, but genuine companionship. Indeed, she is prepared to do things they may not like, if she thinks it is ultimately for the best; you can see that in being willing to beat up and absorb her family, if necessary.

2. Changes, huh.

I think Mari might have got a little more responsible since the consequences of the Yugoloth thing. It's hard to tell, because there may not have been many opportunities for her to be irresponsible since. While I do think it's clear she was changed by the revelation of her sister, earlier, there hasn't been much room to show it yet. I think she's had very strong characterization for most of the game, though, and she's totally the one I'm most comfortable RPing with, IC and OOC.

Nikkolai, man, he feels like he's all over the place. I don't know if he's trying to reform or growing braver or what. I never really felt the 'now Nikkolai will become a good man!' arc has held too much weight, he just doesn't seem to act like one as far as I can see. He has the trappings, he has the Solar girlfriend, he has the courre familiar, but he still seems like the same guy he always was. I mean, I never even thought he was a particularly bad guy in the first place, just someone a bit self-absorbed, reasonable enough. So not only do I not see the change there, but it doesn't seem like that big a jump, either. Is he meant to be a coward, or a brave guy? I don't know that, either. It's hard for me to know what Nikkolai's trying to live up to, so I can't really judge him on that.

Adail I think is getting more assertive as the game progresses, but he also seems to remain fundamentally the same, in terms of character. Similar to Kamvakua in the latter part, I can't recall what events made a particularly big impact on these guys, and it feels like they've remained pretty much the same, temperament wise. Now...

3. ...they are both allegedly celestial/exalted/Capital-G-Good characters, so Goodly that they get special powers and are holy dudes because of it. To me, that has always seemed kinda more like an informed thing than a concrete thing. I don't think I'm acting out of strictly goodly intentions. I don't think Mari or Nikki are, either, we all have personal motivations that do involve opposing evil as a byproduct, though. And Adail and Kamvakua seem to be happy enough to hang out with us and whatnot, but... it's really hard to see them as ardent pursuers of truth, justice, goodness, etc when they don't seem to really push that as an agenda. Ok, so Adail occasionally makes mention of whether an act will serve the cause of Good or cannot be done because it helps Evil creatures, but I feel invoking the explicit nature of things there is kinda missing the point, somehow.

I also know that Drac doesn't see Exalted the same way I do. I kinda put him on the same level as a paladin; he has all the paladin-style abilities and has a Good aura and all that. He may not have a strict code of morals or anything, but he certainly should always be looking for the right thing to do, right?

I remember fighting the Ice Queen. When we killed her the first time and she stole someone else's body, that was kinda horrible, right? Then.. we killed her again. At that point, I think we had a good picture of the situation, and killing her again surely resulted in the death of another of her (presumably innocent) maids. I don't think any of the exalted characters angsted over this or anything much. It's understandable that you might not catch the implications in the middle of a fight, but later... I think it even got brought up OOC, at least? A scene like that is really made for exalted characters to take a moral stand and shine, I think, or to ponder later, have regrets over, etc.

The key for exalted characters is that in order to live up to their potential, they need to be placed in situations where their morals are put to the test. This actually doesn't happen very often, and in the case I remember where it did, well, I don't feel there was a reaction. It is not enough to simply hound us with enemies or present Always Chaotic Evil things for us to fight. For them to shine, there must be situations where doing the right thing is really hard, and they don't even need to do it if they don't want to, or choices between a right thing and a wrong thing and always picking the right thing. Because this kind of thing doesn't come up often, it may well be hard for the players to get a chance to really RP their nature as holy emissaries.

I do struggle personally with figuring how to RP around such beings, including NPCs of similar nature.

To kind of sum up this, I really hope to see some thorny situations in which what is right is not so obvious (e.g. the one we're in!.) If a character's morality is meant to be a big part of their personality, then I feel the game should test it by presenting difficult dilemmas. I'm not sure that's to the style of the people playing such characters, though. It doesn't need to happen all the time or anything, there's certainly room for crushing waves of obvious evil. The key is making a dilemma out of it, somehow.

4. Well, getting trapped and suffering a total defeat is certainly a new experience.

As for what celestial/exalted good have to do with this, well... I talked with you about this, but I don't have much reason to personally hate the lich. You've spoken to me about perceiving the undead as being truly unholy abominations before, but I don't really hold to that, it's just a state of being in and of itself. She certainly may have done evil things in the past, but the present is what's important and I don't personally feel compelled to bring her to justice, especially if she's willing to play nice and help us out. As long as she doesn't obstruct us, I'm not bothered by her. She's certainly treated us well enough so far, so...

The fact that she has Nikkolai as a minion under her total control would count as an obstruction. The fact that Nikkolai personally wants her dead also shoulders me with the responsibility to see that happen. It could be a problem, especially if she could help us achieve our other goals and feels compelled to deal.

In any case this is not the time to fight her, but the time to gather information and prepare to negotiate.

[Zephyrus]

1. Nikkolai...well, it's hard to accurately describe his changes. He began as a self-centered, smart-assed, snide little boy who thought nothing of putting the rest of the party in harm's way to achieve his goals or keep himself safe. In truth, many of his personality traits are the same. There are times when we see a glimpse of kindness since his "reformation" at the hands of the Solar. But mostly, he's still struggling with the concept of being Good. After a lifetime of caring for himself, it's come as quite the shock to find that he now considers the party his friends (and has for some time). How is he supposed to act? He grew up with the mantra "Kindness is weakness" constantly being re-enforced in his lessons. I agree with Knight's assessment. Nikkolai's newfound insights and morals are all over the place, mainly because they haven't been tested firmly as of yet.

I rather like that I have such a complex character, even if he is a snarky bastard most of the time.

2. I feel that Knight is very resistant to change. She is slowly becoming more human, if you will, but her thinking is still fundamentally the same, despite having her views challenged by members of her family and outsiders interested in acquiring that power. Her mindset has always been, and continues to be, to help fulfill the goals of the other members of the party which overlaps with her goal of reuniting with her family. I truly feel that if it were required of Knight to separate from us for a time in order to regain a card, she would. Not that it would be out of spite or disregard for the party, but because it is her driving force in the game. It's what she exists for.

Mari has perhaps grown a little more wise in matters concerning strange drinks and food. Perhaps now she'll be more responsible and thinking before she acts. Other than that, I don't feel that she's changed a great deal over the course of the game. She very much lives up to the carefree wanderer persona and I'm not sure that anything, short of something ridiculously traumatic, that could change this mindset of hers.

Adail and Kam...I'm afraid I have to agree with Knight on this score. Except for a handful of instances where I noticed both of them particularly adamant about certain situations, their views and morals haven't really been strenuously challenged. For example, I can't see them meekly accepting to work for the Lich in exchange for comfort/goods/whatever, despite how sensible it would be to do so, especially in our current situation. It would be a betrayal of their alignments, in my opinion, if they ended up dickering around with the Lich without so much as a fight.

3. See above. I feel that perhaps they haven't been placed in situations that would provoke overly obvious reactions.

4. I certainly did not expect to be in this particular situation. I expected something more...grand. An ultimate showdown or something. Me as a slave and the others as prisoners is just a bit of a downer. =p

I'm not sure how the others would react to this situation, but my goal is to see her dead and then piss on her ashes, though I won't do so if it puts my friends in mortal danger. I fully expect the Good aligned characters to be in accordance with this view, though they might be more inclined to wheel and deal with her to be in a better position to kill her.

[VySaika]

1: Adail's fairly static as a character, and this is largely by design. Part of that is based on mindsets that carry over from my GMing preferances in how Mortals are all individuals by default while Unique Immortals(such as Adail, a musteval with class levels) are rare. And even then, they still all fit in a general mold for each type. It's what makes them different from Mortals, and actually lesser then them in some ways. Mortals all have the ability, and the inherent right, to choose thier own ultimate fates, while very few Immortals develop the strength of Self needed to stray from the path they were born on. And frankly even those few that have such ability, rarely do stray. This is getting kinda rambly, but it all comes back around to the fact that Outsiders in general are less individual and less prone to change and growth then any intelligent mortal. I'm not really sure if Dune and I are on the same page in this regard, since this is how I treat Immortals in my games, but I'll bet it's close enough. So while Adail is unique and he does grow somewhat...he shouldn't grow much.

As far as RPing wise goes, he is getting a bit more assertive(as Rat noted), but that's more me getting more comfortable with how to interact with the others then anything else. Also he's decided that despite my earlier intentions, he is a bit of a punster and a bit of a freindly snarker(he was always intended to be an unfreindly snarker to enemies in combat, but I didn't expect him to carry that over into thinks like poking Mari's ego every time she starts getting too much the upper hand on Nik in the banter war).

2: Ah, peer review. I hate this part, and thus it will be kept fairly short. Also, screw you for using the phrase "do they live up to themselves". Seriously? Vague yet loaded phrasing like that is one of my biggest pet peeves. This is a game, not one of those retarded psych exam questionaires everyone has to take when filling out applications these days. [/chibi-rant]

Knight: Has really seemed to fully get past that stage where she was insanely focused on finding her family and nothing but. The thing with Balance cemented that she now sees her freinds on roughly the same level and isn't any more willing to sacrifice us then she is her siblings.

Mari: Yeah, she does seem like she's a bit more responsible(or perhaps just a bit more willing to listen to others in thier area of expertise) after the yugaloth thing. And she's getting more girly lately. She started the game really coming off kind of tomboyish, but now she's dressing up in noble gowns and calling herself a queen on a lark.

Nikki: Dude's honestly a little bipolar. One minute he's trying to be a good guy and acting somewhat humble, the next he's as arrogant and self absorbed as ever, and at any mention of miss Lich he turns into a scared five year old. It's actually quite amusing, so don't take this as a heavy criticism. I do see the trying in that first part, and it's possibly something Adail and Nik needs to talk about but...bleh. Don't like taking up group time for a 1 on 1 chat, and I'm never around for extra stuff. So I'm not sure what to do there.

To talk about myself again, that's another part of why Adail seems to have little real depth. He doesn't really get personal or deep in groups, but is more a one on one kinda guy for anything heavy...while I'm never around for one on one stuff as a player. Kinda failing my own character here. Anyway, back to peer review.

Kam: Kam's roughly the same guy he's always been too. A little more cautious after the Ogremoch fuckery and the abyss, but still basically willing to trust first and smite later as nessesary if trust is broken.

3: Ah, yes, this. Okay, for Adail's part...I've honestly been playing him as about the most lenient and relaxed Good I can justify a celestial being. Partly this is due to his personallity, he thinks Mortals have the right to choose for themselves and such. Also, not Cha heavy and no real social skills, so he's not exactly good at preaching(which is quite on purpose, because I hate preaching). He tries to inspire by actions, and if he doesn't always get those right...well, he can make mistakes. As he's fond of saying, "Not even the Great Lion is perfect". And when he does make them...frankly, he tends to keep alot of stuff internal. Dune sees a fair amount of it in PM, as I'm often checking with him about making sure my assumptions for how a Celestial should(or could) act mesh with How Reality Works in his world. But Adail's not the type to really show it outwardly. Do I think he's managing to live up to his role as a celestial? Yes, but not nessesarily every other Celestial might agree with that. Coming back to the first bit, he is a Unique one afterall. But there is a reason he doesn't have any Exalted feats or abilities.

4: For immediate plot stuff, I sincerely doubt the lich will ask us to do anything we'd highly consider fighting her rather then doing. She outclasses us, sure. But not by so much we aren't still a very real danger to her. Also I doubt having us "fall to evil" or anything along those lines even ranks on her priority list anywhere. She doesn't seem to be Evil for Evil's sake, so much as it's just where she ended up while pursuing her real goals. Simply put, she's a mortal villian(despite being undead), not a Fiend. And if she's willing to deal and offer us some concessions(like, say, freeing Nikkolai), Adail would be willing to deal as well.

For non-immediate stuff...well, I don't like making predictions that far ahead. So the above will have to do.