[Ranma/SM] Hell is a Martial Artist (Spoilers)

[Anastasia]

I'm okay with the premise Ozzallos puts out. Exploring the girl side in more detail is an interesting and motivating factor; can you imagine what magically changing gender could do to a person? Takahashi never gets into in any sort of serious way, partially because it's not in Ranma's immediate nature and partially because it's a comedy. That's all well and good, I have a personal interest in Ranma-chan fics for the same reason. Ranma accepting her girl side more or various permutations of it, or studying the changes and alterations? This is fine ground for fiction.

What bothers me about these fics? One is the Genma's Daughters of the fiction world, fics that turn Ranma into something he isn't. I loathe them for that, no matter how well they're written. Hell, Genma's Daughter is best explained as well written original fiction named after the Ranma 1/2 cast. When these things go too far, it tends to read as self gratification and projection. I suppose its a hazard of the field, anyone who really does want to be a girl would find Ranma's situation immensely appealing and project into it. Even if Ranma DID decide to accept her girl side or even life full time as a girl, what exactly does that change? She might wear a few dresses if she feels like it and...? She's still a martial artist in a crazy world. Just 'cause she has tits doesn't mean that she's suddenly in a shoujo series or a total, retiring wallflower. Every single fic that seems to conflate Ranma becoming a girl with Ranma ceasing to be Ranma fails.

That is without a doubt the biggest failing of the sub-genre. Fuck, you know what I want to see Ranma do after being locked or choosing to be a girl? I want to see her take her training up to 11, to compensate for her new form and learn how to master it. I want to see her be Ranma, kick some ass and not turn into a cesspit of gender identity angst. Ranma has survived an amazing amount of things in his life. He's a resilient son of a bitch and twice as stubborn.

[Jason_Miao]

Truthfully, I don't know if I'd consider the 'smart' option to be "I went and called a bunch of people after someone said they're the devil and are going to take my soul".  Not because yeah, that's an absurd threat, but because this is Ranma-verse that has already in it that folks do totally pull that kind of shit with promises (Nabiki being one of them).  Smart really would've been the 'hey, I'm missing something here and I really should figure it out.'  Nabiki in context didn't choose the smart option (Make some money, minimize additional risk), she chose the greedy option (Make a some money, then...make some more money)

There's two steps to the idea, and you're conflating them.  Could be my fault, since I didn't really focus on one step.

The first step is that the person under contract is wrong in some sense.  Nabiki is a lying jerk, who takes money and breaks deals easily, because she is selfish.  That's wrong.  The second step is to make exploit this wrong property until the person either learn her lesson, or is past redemption.  This is the actual story, because this is the exploration of the conflict - the conflict of Nabiki against her own nature.  And in these cases, you provide the smart vs. the morally correct option.

Stepping back here, Hild isn't taking the role of a Justice giver here, she's taking the role of "Man I've wanted to hurt these people, what do I got?  Oh, her soul."  I think what you suggest would be far too much time on Nabiki.  It isn't about her comeuppence at all.  That's just seasoning.

Justice dispenser, no.  But it fits in far better with Ozzallos's past chapters and description than just arbitrary "Oh, hey, you just scammed two hundred fifty bucks from me.  Automatic eternal suffering for you!"  Since the writer bothered to take half of the Dojo visit chapter to meticulously explain that, no, Hild isn't just ripping out people's souls for personal need, yes, there is a higher purpose to it, I'd expect future chapters to build upon this carefully laid out justification, not to refute it.

Also, if a writer is going to write up plot devices and tools, unless it's a pure MacGuffin or unless it's a slapstick fic, he'd better use them to their appropriate extent.  If Superman never uses his laser-eyes to save people, but only to fry eggs, that's poor writing.  If the President of the United States goes on TV to tell Bully Bob to stop beating up on Joey, solely because Bob is being mean, that's poor writing.  It's legit to do it the other way around; while kids gang up to beat up a schoolyard bully and kings lead armies to defeat the Legions of Evil, kids who defeat the Legions of Evil is the plot of most JRPGS.  But kings leading armies to beat up a schoolyard bully is typically just people writing up their personal fantasies, and makes for a poor story.

Finally, if an angle would take too much time to properly develop, don't use it at all.  Heck, I don't seem to recall demonic deals for souls being integral in any episode of Ah Megamisama that I've watched (although I admittedly haven't seen them all) - did the series take some dramatically different turn later on?  If the second half isn't about Mara's adventures at soul-snatching, why even set up this soul contract bit in the first place? 

  Because it's not, having a long period of time on it would be strange.  We'd wonder, why are we tempting Nabiki instead of Akane or someone else?  What makes her stand out for special attention? 

Who said Akane wouldn't suffer?  In fact, the most elegant way to do it would be to have Nabiki's scenarios cause suffering to the rest of the Tendos.  You know, as part of the reason why Hild had to bother with a contract in the first place, rather than use her omnipotent powers to just sneeze them into nonexistence. -edit- I don't think that's actually from the fic itself.  I totally made up this reason, since I'm in the position of discussing how to better handle a scene which I don't think should have been included with the last chapter in the first place.

We know why Ranma stands out for it.  He smacked Urd around in chapter 1 which totally pushed him up into the 'Interesting' frame for the gods.  What has Nabiki done to be interesting instead of like a Gnat that just gets swatted?

IMO nothing.  Which is why I disagree with ending the last chapter with soul-taking in the first place.  I think, compared to the transcendence scene, it just seems petty.  Why not end the chapter on a high note, not a mediocre one?

My point is, if a writer is going to do this, do it right, or don't do it at all.  Set it up and execute it, or don't set it up.  Hild either thinks the Tendos are important enough (if for the severity of their transgressions, if not for their actual importance), or she doesn't.  But if it's the former, then write scene as if the Ruler of Hell has something personal against the Tendos.  If it's not, then write it as if it's of trifling importance. 

There is something drastically imbalanced about "We altered the entire fabric of the entire universe!  And then I picked on the helpless Tendos."

Fuck, you know what I want to see Ranma do after being locked or choosing to be a girl? I want to see her take her training up to 11, to compensate for her new form and learn how to master it. I want to see her be Ranma, kick some ass and not turn into a cesspit of gender identify angst.

So much yes.

Hmm...one could turn it around, and put everyone else in angst.

Soun/Genma: Lesbian marriages are not valid in Japan (unless they are, and this angle fails).  The schools won't be joined by marriage!  Woe is me!
Nodoka: My son is no longer manly!  Woe is me!
Akane: I can't marry a girl without being a pervert.  Woe is me!


Ranma: This sucks.  Although, I have four fiancees, chances are at least one's bi, so that makes the fiancee question a lot easier.  Whatever, time to beat up Ryouga again.

-Edit-
Clarified a few ambiguous parts.

[Jason_Miao]

Finally had time to scratch out a few scenes of the HiMA inspired fic idea.

Overall framework isn't complete.  I have two questions that are yet to be answered, one major (part 0: motive behind initial attack), and one minor (part 1: summon #2 and its resolution).  Technically, the minor point isn't necessary, but I like the symbolism of the fourth summon.  And in a sense, since part 1 is really the rebuttal and part 0 is the setup that is needed to drive part 1, what I have already serves as a slightly better fleshed out description of where the last chapter of HiMA could have ended, and where HiMA could have gone.

Also, the portion labeled "End" probably isn't the best way to end this, but I don't have the mindset to end on a tragedy.  Realistically, the scene stub at the end of summon #4 should be the proper end.

[Anastasia]

A few comments.

Re: Using the demon's powers. You'd really need a good stream of nasty monsters he can't beat otherwise. Angels or other demons would do it, but even then I expect he'd try another variant of an old power to beat them first. Maybe I'm giving Ranma too much credit, but I don't see him easily and willingly using a demon's power.

Re: Actual draw. Using Akane doesn't really ring for me. You're right, that's fanon Akane. I dislike the idea that Ranma is going to ascend, that feels vaguely cliched and uninteresting to me. If this is going to be a tragedy, why not have it happen out of a routine, mundane event that someone of the normal cast does? Something that's really just bad luck stoking the fires of a tragedy. Gives it an extra, meaningless sting to it all.

Re: Kasumi suck-suck. What's the point? You're right, it feels completely disconnected with the rest of it, unless Kasumi's going to play some greater role in this story.

Re: The last scene. After seeing all of that, you could have it be shown that Nabiki's gambit to restore Ranma failed completely. It adds a certain nobility to Nabiki's actions, but certainly reinforces the tragedy and depression of the entire piece.

[Jason_Miao]

Thanks for the comments.

Re: Using the demon's powers. You'd really need a good stream of nasty monsters he can't beat otherwise. Angels or other demons would do it, but even then I expect he'd try another variant of an old power to beat them first. Maybe I'm giving Ranma too much credit, but I don't see him easily and willingly using a demon's power.

I agree with you.  The outline is little more than a framework, so I didn't write out the details. 

Pretty much, the way it'd go is that Nabiki would write out an ironclad contract which the demon doesn't want to accept at first-for him, it's really less about getting a soul or freedom, and more about the cessation of evangelical radio and getting hit by wards.  Once the demon knows that angels are about, he'll relent, because he knows the angels are really there to kill him.  Since Saffron is a god, and Ranma's now fighting against demons and such, I've made reference to the demon fighting around that level, although not as individually powerful as Saffron.  The angels will be the same.  Because they are angels, wards don't work against them - If Ranma is going to fight them, he needs an edge.

Angels are these big horrifying wheels that are covered in eyes, not cute gals with harps.  So, all the humans think they are monsters.

This also means I need to figure out how to write decent fighting scenes, but hey, why write if not to learn?

If this is going to be a tragedy, why not have it happen out of a routine, mundane event that someone of the normal cast does? Something that's really just bad luck stoking the fires of a tragedy. Gives it an extra, meaningless sting to it all.

I kind of do that with part 1 summons #4 (which is why I like it being the 4th one, rather than the 3rd), so I'm sort of reluctant to do that at the outset.  The theme I've used when writing up the part 0 framework is the choice of forbearance.  Had heaven not sent assassins, a soul would not have been lost.  Had Ranma not fought off the angels, they'd have taken care of the demon problem for him.  Had the demon not attacked for (whatever reason), he'd have not lost his freedom.  One concrete action that kicks off the whole chain of events would neatly tie it all together.  The ascension idea would have been based on some Jusendo-premise...but yeah, it's been done pretty often, so it's hard to do in an interesting fashion.  I'm just not sure what's really a better choice.

Part 1 is about how Nabiki's past actions come back to haunt her.  Nabiki figures this out after the third summons.  Then, something completely out of her control happens, triggering the fourth summons.  It's not fair, but then, it's not meant to be.

Re: Kasumi suck-suck. What's the point? You're right, it feels completely disconnected with the rest of it, unless Kasumi's going to play some greater role in this story.

I thought about that after running across the fic http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3288316/1/The_Devil_in_Miss_Tendo and thinking "Well, of course they'd need to come up with a scenario that weird, because Kasumi would never be able to pull that off in canon...unless...hey, wait a minute..."

I was tempted to throw it in as the reason for the demon attack, but realized that (1) she is, technically playing by the rules, and that doesn't comport with an objectively-styled soul-taking story; (2) I don't really see Kasumi overcome by lust to break those rules, esp canon does cast her as the Wa of the house; (3) even if she was, plenty of people cheat on their spouses (and neither Ranma nor Kasumi is even married) without demon lords dragging them off to hell, making that as the demon attack trigger no better than sending Nabiki to hell for scamming two weeks of grocery money.

Re: The last scene. After seeing all of that, you could have it be shown that Nabiki's gambit to restore Ranma failed completely. It adds a certain nobility to Nabiki's actions, but certainly reinforces the tragedy and depression of the entire piece.

That does sound much better.  It's not a Nabiki-comeuppance scene that's really responsive to HiMA, but ... "'No one else even tried.  Thank you for caring,' as Nabiki was led into eternal torment." Or somesuch.

[Anastasia]

Angels are these big horrifying wheels that are covered in eyes, not cute gals with harps.  So, all the humans think they are monsters.

That's what I figured, the Old Testament style of angel versus feathery, beautiful humanoids. None of the Ranma cast would have a clue, 'cept arguably Cologne or Happosai, and even that's at the whim of the author.

That does sound much better.  It's not a Nabiki-comeuppance scene that's really responsive to HiMA, but ... "'No one else even tried.  Thank you for caring,' as Nabiki was led into eternal torment." Or somesuch.

I like that idea a lot. I can imagine Ranma saying that and smiling, even as he makes no move to save her from eternal misery. It's really a cherry on top of the entire tragedy.

[Edward]

Angels are these big horrifying wheels that are covered in eyes, not cute gals with harps.  So, all the humans think they are monsters.

Some angels were pretty bizarre.  Others were indistinguishable from humans.  None were cute gals with harps.  Sort of like the devil did not have red skin, cloven hooves, a tail, horns, or a goatee.

[Brian]

I'm trying to remember all the choirs now.  Most of them I picked up from In Nomine, not the bible or a probably more accurate source, but anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Nomine_(role-playing_game)

Might be interesting if you're looking for a pre-'gamified' system to draw from.

[Jason_Miao]

Some angels were pretty bizarre.  Others were indistinguishable from humans.  None were cute gals with harps.

Exactly.  And if I don't point out exactly what they are, just talk about a horrific circular creature of 80 eyes, terrible and tangibly emanating cold destructive power, are people going to naturally think angel?  No, because everyone knows that angels are cute girls with harps.  Which is perfect, because I don't even have to crib my description to mislead the reader.

Might be interesting if you're looking for a pre-'gamified' system to draw from.

Thanks!  I'll check it out, especially since the Wikipedia article about Biblical heavenly hierarchy that MS linked to me (we were tossing ideas for monsters back and forth, and collaboratively came up with this) doesn't really give a good handle on combat powers and such.  Cribbing from someone who has actually thought this through may be worthwhile.

[Jon]

I'm trying to remember all the choirs now.  Most of them I picked up from In Nomine, not the bible or a probably more accurate source, but anyway:

I've hooked Jason up on IRC, but I thought I'd note there's no such thing as angelic choirs in the Bible; that was a later invention. So In Nomine is about as good a source as any.