Odds and ends

[Ebiris]

Okay if you're just going to write off anything I say as semantics there's no point talking. But I'd rather be fighting monsters who fight back and make me feel invested in what's happening than ones that spent several rounds flailing ineffectually in Aaeru's iron grip while waiting for the inevitable. That's what my point of view on the subject boils down to.

And as you always talk about grapple being 'your cool thing'? It's not, it's your bread and butter. It may be something cool when used to spice up an encounter now and then, but when it's the be all and end all of every encounter it loses its appeal.

[Corwin]

It hasn't lost its appeal to me, if that still matters.

Of course, there is the alternative. That being that Aaeru flails ineffectively while everyone performs better around her. I don't want that. I'm trying to correct that, of course, but it takes time.

I don't even get why it's such a big issue for you given that whenever there's more than one enemy that changes the situation entirely, me being unable to grapple several people and all.

Edit: On second look, it does seem as if I'm writing off what you are saying. This was not actually the intent, and I will explain what I meant by 'semantics'.

3.5 might call them basic attacks and special attacks and smites and what not. At the end of the day, we have on our sheets several attack routines. BAB and its derivatives. Most people have a melee routine with a favored weapon and a ranged routine with a backup one. Sometimes it's with two weapons. Sometimes it's with a blast or a trip or any other special options like trip. That does not change the fact that all of them are billed as attacks by 3.5 and it's up to us to choose which we use. Having an Eldritch Blast does not preclude you from using a sling or a crossbow or a dagger or even a greataxe. You are using the Eldritch Blast because it is a) the most mechanically sound option for your build, b) it fits thematically, c) you think it's cool. The situation is the same for me, with grapple. I hope to develop other alternatives, as I've said, and then I could use, say, Rainbow Pattern or Arcane Strike-boosted kicks instead of grapple, just as you sometimes use a swarm summoning/grapple/other incantations instead of the blast. I don't see, however, why it would make grapple any less of a legitimate option on these merits. Right now, grapple is more cumbersome in execution, but that is not a function of its 'specialness'. I've demonstrated that it can be streamlined very easily without reducing its effectiveness. So when I offer that and you still want it nerfed, then from what I see the argument over how special an attack grapple is disappears and what remains is that you just dislike it as a combat option for mechanical and RP reasons.

I do understand you don't like it and find it lame. I even see how you would find it crippling to you (though to be fair, as much as shooting into melee gives you a certain penalty). However I happen to disagree, and I don't really want something I like and have built my character around to a degree around to be nerfed merely for that reason. I hope we can agree to disagree. Please don't think that I dismissed your arguments out of hand, and please don't dismiss mine.

[Ebiris]

My point revolves around how a basic attack does damage and a special attack does other stuff. There's no mechanical difference between me shooting someone with a blast, Andrea stabbing them with a sword, or Wayland karate kicking them. It can be done indefinitely and on a success it subtracts some hp, but if the target isn't killed it remains completely unhindered.

In Aaeru's case when she grapples, she gets all the benefit of a basic attack, except the attack is more favourable to hit, and upon hitting the enemy loses mobility, defence, and actions. It's a special attack because it does so much more than just reducing hit points.

For everyone else a special attack either consumes a limited resource (spells or stunning fist uses or bardsong) or does less direct damage (swarms hurt less than blasts but were guaranteed to hit and carried small nerfs).

We're clearly not going to convince each other, though, and I'm not going to cry foul and say that your grapple build is overpowered to force a more balanced rebuild, because it's not, it's just something I find boring. So in the end agreeing to disagree is all that can be done.

[Anastasia]

Relying to various bits in no particular order.

Changing the fuckhuge size modifiers from 3.5 into the more modest ones from Pathfinder seems really awesome on the surface to me, because fuck that shit with not even being able to compete on the same plane of existence with monsters. Being able to cast spells and such in grapple as Pathfinder allows also seems nice.

Quoting this for general agreement. Frankly I'm surprised you want to keep the size modifiers as it is, since you gain more by nerfing then than by keeping them. Sure it hurts Aaeru short term, but long term it makes grapple much more viable against bigger monsters.

Okay if you're just going to write off anything I say as semantics there's no point talking. But I'd rather be fighting monsters who fight back and make me feel invested in what's happening than ones that spent several rounds flailing ineffectually in Aaeru's iron grip while waiting for the inevitable. That's what my point of view on the subject boils down to.

I do agree that grapple can often be a slog rather than a dynamic action. This is a good part of why I'd like to streamline it. I admit my experiences here have been mixed - for example grappling in the valkyrie fight was meant to be a big part of it, but you found it boring. That said, is it always bad? Nah. I think it's bad when the bad guy ends up doing exactly what Eb said - flailing away to little gain, rather than being a serious threat. Yet paradoxically this is good strategy. On the other hand, if the bad guy is good enough to throw off the grapples and get past Aaeru, I suspect you feel ineffective.

Take from all that what you will.

Of course, there is the alternative. That being that Aaeru flails ineffectively while everyone performs better around her. I don't want that. I'm trying to correct that, of course, but it takes time.

I don't feel it's that binary and I sometimes worry you're too hung up on grappling versus the fear of being ineffective.  I feel this entire One Cool Thing mantra of yours leads to you pigeonholing your thoughts and style a bit too much. I think there's a good pile of reasons why this has happened. Aaeru's VoP so no items to help her out or add variety. You don't feel your unarmed strikes are as effective, and considering grapple I don't blame you. Further considering the resource investment you've made in it, I think you feel obligated to focus on grappling.

On the other hand, more options will open up in time.

I do understand you don't like it and find it lame. I even see how you would find it crippling to you (though to be fair, as much as shooting into melee gives you a certain penalty). However I happen to disagree, and I don't really want something I like and have built my character around to a degree around to be nerfed merely for that reason.

Do you need to be nerfed? Nah. To be honest grappling will do less and less for you as monsters get nastier, since grapple never really keeps up unless you're huge or bigger. You simply don't keep up with the size modifiers.

[Corwin]

On modifiers: I've made an investment, as you've said, and part of that is Enlarge Person. Take it away and my grapple check is pretty similar to a normal person's, except with say STR 18. I don't really plan on grappling fuckhuge dragons and I also don't expect to have a chance of subduing them via grapple since you could always make them more overwhelming if they weren't already while abiding by the new proposed size rules.

On the Valkyrie fight: it was a boring slog because I knew I couldn't get past her DR and ER (and neither could the rest of the party, so I couldn't even feel useful for lowering her AC for them), not because she was better at grappling than me or because she won.

On doing well in grapple or underperforming vis a vis the rest of the party outside of it: I really am, and you could probably check that pretty easily. However, when I say that I'm fully aware that it's a statement about a moment in time (ie, right now) and not some pessimistic projection about the rest of the game. I've been waiting on AS for a huge boost for ages, and it's finally here so I'll see how it works out. And if it doesn't, by that time I'll have useful spells.

On not keeping up: I guess, if we think of monsters. I'd be cool with still being able to grapple dudes in full plate. (EDIT: I suppose if THIS is the main issue for you I can just take the hit and go for the Pathfinder size bonuses. I never really expected to ever succeed grappling something Large and larger given how huge their bab and str must be to begin with, so I've always planned on only grappling Medium and smaller humanoids.)

[Anastasia]

On not keeping up: I guess, if we think of monsters. I'd be cool with still being able to grapple dudes in full plate. (EDIT: I suppose if THIS is the main issue for you I can just take the hit and go for the Pathfinder size bonuses. I never really expected to ever succeed grappling something Large and larger given how huge their bab and str must be to begin with, so I've always planned on only grappling Medium and smaller humanoids.)

I don't care either way on this issue.

[Anastasia]

Issues on the table:

1. Increase added SP from +2/level to +4. Everyone seems okay with this, pending Yuth chiming in. Assuming no snags there this'll go through. Wait for me to confirm it before adding any points. Yuth, this is seperate from the SP issue noted earlier with Wayland, I'll talk to you about that later.

2. CMB/CMD. I'm likely going to do something here, still working shit out on my end. Again, waiting for more/any comments and Yuth.

[Anastasia]

In other news, I'm working on a PrC for Simmer. All the elemental ones turn you into an elemental, which is redundant for her. I'm adapting the Elemental something or other dragon PrC from Draconomicon. It should be posted by Monday, conversion is taking some time to balance it out.

---Digression alert---

Dragon PrCs? Nice idea, not so great results. Dragon HD are loaded enough as it is, you have to make them pretty fucking good to lure a dragon away. I don't think they're really needed because of that. I'd rather just template a dragon to taste than do a draconic PrC. This gets doubly worse since most of them aren't going to see much play out of high/epic levels. Honestly they'd be better as epic PrCs tailored to dragons instead of virtual age categories. Instead of blanket advancement past great wyrm, they choose a PrC and advance aspects of themselves. This can lead to further metamorphosis; for example, a couple of draconic PrCs are meant to emulate certain templates. (Half fiend, elemental, DvR0 all appear from a quick reading) In fact, I may do something like this if/when I run another epic level game for dragon advancement. Mental note, remember that for later.

As another digression, later dragon age categories should have been integrated with epic to begin with. That's a whole other rant about how poorly epic is worked into 3.5, though.

[Yuthirin]

THIS JUST IN:

<Merc> Also, I just did Yuth's skill points. His add up to 34 skill points out of 54 he'd get for monk 6
> I think some might be cross class.
> He mentioned that.
<Merc> just 1 point
<Merc> I counted that one as 2
> PM me your math real quick?
<Merc> I just popped it in my calculator which I have handy cause I'm doing some statistics review
* Kotono nods, doing the same real quick. What's his int modifier?
> +2?
<Merc> +0
<Merc> He's got int 11
> Lemme do it myself real quick, but I bet you're right.
> Oh well, at worst he gets more SP. Yay.
<Merc> heh
<Merc> I only did it for him because I suspected due to the fact that he misses the Monk BAB one repeatedly.
<Merc> Cor/Eb almost surely did it right.
* Kotono nods.
> I'm about 99% sure the did.

I checked and the math checks out, so it looks like you've shorted yourself 20 SP, Yuth. Feel free to fill these points in. Correct us if we're missing something, it looks like you forgot to apply the +2 SP bonus to all classes.

This is not really surprising. I'm scatterbrained as it is, and sometimes my brain tells me that I did things when I really haven't.

[Anastasia]

It's okay, that's why I do sheet audits. I'm glad I caught 'em so you get the SP you're entitled to.

[Anastasia]

Okay, I'm looking to use the base CMB/CMD system from Pathfinder. I'm looking at a full on transfer after studying things. Let me know what you think! This isn't final yet.

This is what a changeover would effect. Feel free to read here as well: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers

- Everyone has a CMB and a CMD in place of grapple on their sheets. For example, my monster statblocks would look different.

Old: Base Attack Bonus/Grapple: +x/+x
New: Base Attack Bonus:/Combat Maneuver Bonus/Combat Maneuver Defense: +x/+x/+x

- We keep the 3.5 size modifiers so this part doesn't change. See here for more about size modifiers: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat Note: I'm concerned this is going to lead to some wonky balance issues. If it turns out it does, I'm going to make the change over to the Pathfinder size modifiers over objections. Having done my homework, my personal judgment is that we should. I'm refraining for Cor's sake.

- We're not going to convert to the Pathfinder feats for these but keep using the 3.5 feats. The various improved x feats regarding these maneuvers will be rewritten to accommodate the changes.

- We'll use the pathfinder rules for Bull Rush. There are minimal changes and no one ever bullrushes anyway so this isn't important.

- Dirty Trick is now available if you want to try that sort of thing. It's a fine rule.

- We'll use the pathfinder version of disarm. It's slightly smoother all around.

- We'll go ahead and include Drag as well, since why not?

- Grapple works as noted in Pathfinder, except that we keep grapples per round as 3.5. Escape Artist to escape a grapple would be against the target's CMD.

- Overrun will work as in Pathfinder. This is another thing that's so rarely used that I don't care.

- We'll go ahead and toss reposition in as well, could be interesting.

- Any interest in steal at all, guys? I'm on the fence about this one.

- Sunder can work as Pathfinder. This is another of the rarely used skills, since destroying loot is rarely productive.

-  Trip's Pathfinder version is cleaner, I prefer it I think.

------

Secondary suggested house rules if we end up using all this, let me know what you think:

Tumbling to avoid AoOs becomes an opposed check against an opponent's CMD. This makes tumble more than +14 mod and forget. While this does increase the skill burden on all of you somewhat, I'm okay with this since I'm being really generous with houserules for extra SP.

[Ebiris]

Tumbling vs CMD is fine with me, I'm happy enough to use the system overall.

Are we getting +4 extra skill points per level instead of +2 now?

(also Bull Rush is awesome when there are cliffs or lava or acid about)

[Anastasia]

Assuming that goes through, yes. I'm waiting for Yuth to have a chance to comment and me to talk to him first. I'm assuming it will, but nothing's final.

[Merc]

[15:03] * Kotono tries to gnaw a post out of Merc.
[15:03] <Merc> I have no comment on CMB/D stuff
[15:04] <Kotono> No opinion at all?
[15:04] <Merc> Nope. I don't use it, so if it's easier for you, go for it.

[Yuthirin]

Either way is fine with me. I understand both systems...mostly. Whatever you prefer will work.