Odds and ends

[Merc]

As an added note, it's also worth pointing out that it's very likely my fault this whole mess occured as the last time someone grabbed loot was the Balyss/undead thing where I did the same loot system Eb did (I don't count Jumanji as nobody kept anything except Janson and he traded in an item of equal value): http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php?topic=101156.msg1019188#msg1019188

So, yeah. Sorry?

[Yuthirin]

Finally, again keep in mind that you didn't really chime in anything earlier when we were mentioning loot or Eb did the calculation, you just gave the accusation, and you vanished right after. I really don't think it's fair to judge us based on that if you didn't really pay attention to anything besides

To be honest, I was watching what was going on in the chat, but I honestly thought it was a joke.

[Corwin]

Mmm, SR ate my post just now. I'll recap.

-The attitude wasn't cool, and neither was stating things via fiat and walking away rather than discussing things. It sets a bad precedent and creates a bad atmosphere. Not cool at all.

-Loot scheme-wise, Merc is right in that Josa took a hit over the shield that time. I would also consider gifts to be defined as any item we cannot sell or otherwise liquidate without offending the giver, which Frozen Oath would fall under, being a unique weapon given to Wayland by his enamored benefactor.

-But we are starting with a clean slate from now on, and so, because Dune wants us to have an agreed-upon loot scheme, I'm proposing one here:

A) We renegotiate our contract with Josa. Considering our earnings, we either sue for a larger percentage or a larger monthly fee. 40gp on retainer is rather ridiculous with 12k in earnings over two weeks.
B) It still bothers me how abusable a system is in which people can claim things without compensation. Normally, we do a risk/profit assessment on whether we want something, and that drives our claiming. Do we want something more than someone else in the party does? Will we be tempted to sell it next level for a cooler item, and would that cause bad blood from people who also wanted it but lost to us in the claiming process? It's just too bothersome. If we find a belt of con +4, who will want it? Who will get it? So let's keep to the normal distribution.
C) Exceptions can be made. First, anything is usable until we actually return home and can sell it. Second, there's the mutual party fund. If we need to ID something, we just take that out of the overall amount. If we want a Wand of CLW (and we really want one, guys), we can do it the same way rather than make the paladin who can use it fork over the cash herself. Similarly, if we land something too expensive to be claimed and repaid by any party member that we believe will help us (or we just want to be nice), we can agree to make it that person's share of the loot on a case by case basis.

It's worked for us throughout many games, and it's a better system than anything else I have seen in use. If I can have people approve it, we can move this all past us. Unless someone really doesn't want to?

[Ebiris]

Okay, posting for real now. We need to decide on a loot system? I'm in favour of the one where you have to pay for what you get. Quite simply, it's fair. If someone doesn't get much benefit from the loot that we scavenge, they shouldn't be penalised for that. Paying for magic items isn't a penalty, it's a matter of course. If someone gets a cool item in loot, uses it for a few adventures, then when it becomes obsolete they sell it and buy something better, they're advantaged over the rest of the party.

In terms of items that are hard to put a price on but are undeniably awesome and better than anything else on the table, it's easy enough just for the recipient to waive their share for the adventure involved and take the item.

Gifts shouldn't count at all for any loot calculations, so the onus will remain on Dune to balance those as they appear, but I'm certain doing so would be vastly easier than having to balance the contents of every treasure chest and the inventory of every NPC we might murder.

So this doesn't devolve into an endlessly circling debate, why don't we all just vote on the system we prefer and then go with the majority and let the subject drop?

edit: Also I see Cor has posted much the same while I was typing, but I'm not redoing this. We seem to agree.

[Merc]

I personally don't care, I think both systems are good as long as the DM is aware of how things are likely to play out in the distribution of loot. The normal distribution itself is not without flaws, so it's not inherently better:
a) Cor mentioned the 'exceptions'-case, where we get something incredibly expensive compared to rest of loot. When do we decide if an exception is made? How in debt does someone have to go to make it an exception?
b) What if a reward is just a single item that someone wants, there's no gold involved? "Oh, well I want this, so I'm going to pay you guys for the right to use this item as part of my share"? That just seems kind of awkward.
c) I don't really see why an exception is made for gifts though, if it's loot, it's loot? If nobody's claiming it and it goes onto the cabinet and/or window display, sure, it doesn't count, but if one of us is using it, why wouldn't it count?

Really, I'm fine with whatever gets picked, and I am more used to this method since we tend to use it in other games, but this talk about the other system being inherently more abusable is also silly.

[Anastasia]

Really, I'm fine with whatever gets picked, and I am more used to this method since we tend to use it in other games, but this talk about the other system being inherently more abusable is also silly.

This part I  agree with, insofar as my role in loot is concerned. I'm the one who balances out how much money you might get, the items that appear and any possible gifts.  If I really want someone to get something or think they're due, they're gonna get something. I also can compensate for whatever system is chosen to make it flow better and try and keep people balanced. At the end of the day I make sure things balance out, I don't think the loot system is -that- big a deal as long as all of you can deal with it.

[Yuthirin]

b) What if a reward is just a single item that someone wants, there's no gold involved? "Oh, well I want this, so I'm going to pay you guys for the right to use this item as part of my share"? That just seems kind of awkward.

This is really my point exactly, without being nearly as inflammatory as I usually am.

c) I don't really see why an exception is made for gifts though, if it's loot, it's loot? If nobody's claiming it and it goes onto the cabinet and/or window display, sure, it doesn't count, but if one of us is using it, why wouldn't it count?

Really, I'm fine with whatever gets picked, and I am more used to this method since we tend to use it in other games, but this talk about the other system being inherently more abusable is also silly.

I'd like to propose a new system, with the following example. Say we just found a +4 Con belt. It's valued at 20k. Eating my share of the loot, that puts me at 15k in debt. Then the next piece of gear comes along, and I could use it. But I'm still in debt, because we don't make money that fast. So I pass on it. Nobody else wants it, so it gets sold. Now I'm pissed at everyone else because I really could have used that gear, and it would have helped a lot, but it got sold instead.

Now say the same belt drops, and again everyone wants it. Instead of going into debt, we all roll for it. I don't win it, but Janson does. I'm jealous, sure, but not really upset, because I had as equal a chance to get that belt as everyone else.

In cases where the item is useful for only one person, such as stealth gear or something that augments bardic music/knowledge, that person chooses whether they will take the item, or not. If so, great, we all benefit. If not, great, we sell it, divvy up the gold, and we all benefit. Small stuff like potions, scrolls, etc. would g in the group loot in Josa's closet, available to everyone. Like if we found a cache of potions of Heal, say six of them. They're valuable, but we're not gonna carry around all of them at once. We carry maybe one or two, use them as needed when someone needs one, and carry on.

Of course, this method depends on honesty, but none of us are dicks like that, and nobody's playing an evil character. I think this would work out very well for us.

[Ebiris]

Now I'm pissed at everyone else because I really could have used that gear, and it would have helped a lot, but it got sold instead.

Yeah, this is the part that bothers me; getting pissed off. There hasn't been a single piece of loot in the game thus far that's been useful for Janson, but it hasn't bothered me because hey, I can just buy something if I need it. If the big ticket items get taken for free, there's a smaller amount of treasure left over, and thus Janson can afford less cool stuff of his own - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

You've got your +4 con belt, why are you getting pissed off that other people want enough money to maybe buy their own +4 stat items some day?

Anyway, it's clear we're veering into the endlessly circling debate territory since Merc has no opinion, but as I said at the outset, I don't care. I really genuinely don't give a single shit about how we calculate loot. I just want to play the game. Honestly? Last night I was perfectly willing to just accept Yuth's system and move on, but waking up to being called greedy put me in a combative mood. Since most of us are apathetic on the issue, lets just go with Yuth's method and drop it. It's not my preference, but the issue is just not going to get resolved unless we pick and I don't want to waste days and effort on this debate, I just want to play the game.

Now can we go kill some monsters or do something that's actually fun?

[Yuthirin]

Well, I apologize for calling you greedy. It wasn't my intent to offend you, it was really just how I felt. I felt like I was personally under attack, because this type of thing hadn't really, to my knowledge, happened yet. I honestly felt like you had all targeted me.

So yeah, I apologize for the venom in my first post.

[Anastasia]

Note to self: Josa needs spending, money adjustment and a level six feat. He's done otherwise. Tweak candymancer's DCs a little bit.

[Anastasia]

Sheet audit time! These are to try and catch any mistakes and help make sure you guys have your shit straight. I'm working under the assumption all your leveling up is done. If not and I harp on something that's wrong because of that, say so.

Andrea's first because her sheet posted first.

- On calculating your to hit with your falchion, I'm coming up with +12 instead of +13 at you list. 6 points of BAB, 4 points of strength, 1 point from weapon focus and 1 point from a +1 weapon equals 12.

- What order did you take your class levels in? I wanna quickly review your saves but that impacts how they calculate out.

- In your summary you note you use detect evil as a spell. This isn't quite accurate, you use it as a spell-like ability. The impact of this is admittedly minuscule.

- Your charisma based skills aren't adjusted for your new charisma modifier, being one under what they should be.

- You have one rank of intimidate but that's your selected skill with adaptive learning. Planning on raising it later?

- With your new charisma you have a second 1st level paladin spell. Remember paladins work entirely off charisma for spellcasting by houserule.

[Anastasia]

Janson next!

- In your spell-like abilities section, note how many times per day you can use those SLAs.

Everything else looks good. I always feel awkward with Janson's since he tends not to make mistakes so I get this really short post, then huge ones for others. Oh well.

[Anastasia]

Now Wayland! Bear in mind I'm still a little shaky with psionic stuff, so correct me if I'm wrong.

- The math is below, but your fort save is one below what it should be. It should be +9, not +8. The trip-up comes at level 4. This is when you go over to psychic warrior, which gives +2 fort at level 1. However monk rises by +1 to all three saves at that level, so what I'm guessing happened is that you used that and forgot to factor in the +2 from psychic warrior.

Math:

Spoiler: ShowHide

> Level 1: 2/2/2
> Level 2: 3/3/3
> Level 3: 3/3/3
> Level 4: 5/4/4
> Level 5: 6/4/4
> Level 6: 7/5/5
> Level 6 with ability modifiers added in: 9/8/8

-Your speed should be 50ft, not 40ft. The speed bonus for monk rises to 20ft at level 6. EDIT: Also note for that every 10ft you are over 30ft speed, you gain a +4 bonus to jump. So right now you have a +8 bonus to jump checks, add that in.

- You need to invest a skill point into autohypnosis to use it, it's trained only. Feel free to retrain a point into it if you want(Assuming you've done skills for the level up already, if not feel free to just add one in with your normal level.)

- You can use stunning fist 6 times a day, equal to your monk level, not 2 times a day as noted on your sheet.

[Anastasia]

Aaeru time!

- Could you walk me through how you determine your diplo total? There's enough mods in play that I want to make sure I have them all.

Honestly I don't see much wrong with your sheet. There's just so much going on with VoP and gestalt that it takes a bit of time to work through it. No big though, I didn't notice anything afoul.

[Merc]

- On calculating your to hit with your falchion, I'm coming up with +12 instead of +13 at you list. 6 points of BAB, 4 points of strength, 1 point from weapon focus and 1 point from a +1 weapon equals 12.

Hrm...I can't think of where the extra +1 comes from either. I had just added +1 for the level's BAB, so I must have made the mistake last level-up since I'd been using +12 last level (whoops!). I'll edit.

- What order did you take your class levels in? I wanna quickly review your saves but that impacts how they calculate out.

1)Pldn/Bard: [FRW:+200/+022]>[FRW:+222]
2)Pldn/Bard: [FRW:+100/+011]>[FRW:+111]
3)Pldn/Bard: [FRW:+011/+100]>[FRW:+111]
4)Pldn/Prgn: [FRW:+000/+002]>[FRW:+002]
5)Pldn/Prgn: [FRW:+111/+001]>[FRW:+111]
6)Hllrv/Prgn: [FRW:+002/+110]>[FRW:+112]

Totals: [FRW:+669] + Abilities [+302] + Dvn Grace [+555] = [F+14,R+11,W+16]

My attack bonus may go down by one, but my reflex goes up by one~! (I'll edit)

- In your summary you note you use detect evil as a spell. This isn't quite accurate, you use it as a spell-like ability. The impact of this is admittedly minuscule.

I'll edit it.

- Your charisma based skills aren't adjusted for your new charisma modifier, being one under what they should be.

I always miss something when modifying a score that changes lots of little things. Fixing. =/

- You have one rank of intimidate but that's your selected skill with adaptive learning. Planning on raising it later?

Team Bimbo lacks the intellect/skill points to boost it as much as I'd like! But yeah, unless I decide on something I want to suffer to boost it, it's going to be going up very slowly.

- With your new charisma you have a second 1st level paladin spell. Remember paladins work entirely off charisma for spellcasting by houserule.

Ah right. One more spell coming up~