Odds and ends

[Anastasia]

Okay, read and digested everything. I see two options.

1. Game over. The exact results of the Senaril battle can be handwaved or played out as you desire. No matter what they are, we move onto something else after this.

2. We continue on. You attempt to defeat Senaril, and assuming all goes well, you continue on. From here hopefully the game gets out of this Senaril induced dark phase.  This may turn into 1 if a TPK ensues.

Vote for which you prefer.

Supplementary answers to various points below, then my own thoughts after that.

<Aaeru> I wouldn't mind it if the solar that came down for a handy reincarnation and to give Archie some spare gold would return and smite her

It's certainly possible you may get some aid, but I'm not going to handwave a victory if we're continuing on with the game. If things are so munged that you need a naked DM Deus Ex Machina to autokill  Senaril then I'd rather just move on.

<Janson> Basically, Balmuria is nihilistic to the core. We try to ignore it and have fun and get along, and then you slam us with this stuff.

Barring Senaril, this has been a decently lighthearted and bright game. Senaril shows all the darker for what she's done; it doesn't mean the entire game world is a nihilistic mess. It means people need to stand up and make a better future, like Whimsical Sweets. Senaril said as much, and said that's why she's attacked you guys. The point is to look that misery, despair and bitter hatred in the eye and say, "Fuck you." By what Senaril said, she as much confessed that you could do a lot of good and change things for the better if you keep going. That doesn't mean the world is nihilistic, it means that there's much to fight for and to make the world a brighter, better place.

<Arachiel> As for a new game, having Senaril hanging over or heads would not ve fun.

I'd like to resolve Senaril one way or another, yes. That's one loose thread that should be trimmed.

Arcane Strike discussion.

I've been toying with nerfing it since the end of Balmuria 1, but I've held off since Aaeru took it. I may nerf it after all this - it's irrelevant right now at least.

<Ebiris> I took it easy with Janson, a simple build (with not exactly fantastic classes) and below average stats, hardly any use of magic items. But it a nice break from the optimisation that characterised Balmuria 1, and he was pretty good at surviving all the stuff we'd faced up till now. I think his replacement will need to be more carefully built, though.

Janson's been fine power-wise. I didn't expect him to die but he got himself into this situation. Honestly I feel horrible about it, since he tried to use his brains and wit to turn the tables on Senaril. I don't really like rewarding PC creativity with a short, brutal demise. Anyway, I'd say if Janson comes back a tad more optimization wouldn't hurt, but the basic chassis is okay. I've been optimizing NPCs a little more since I rebuilt Sylvie, so this wouldn't go amiss. (A lot more in Sylvie's case.)

---

My own thoughts? At first I wanted to just say the hell with it. I was frustrated with the entire thing. Once I let that pass, I realized that the game isn't unsalvageable. This has been a brutal arc, but it is just an arc. The survivors can go on and Senaril's hopefully gone. Once I squared that away with myself, I realized that a lot of the appeal of canning this is to go back to the Balmuria 1 PCs, have the other two make new PCs to join in. It could be a Shar stomp like I mentioned on IRC a week ago or whatever. I admit I'm still attached to those characters. On the other hand I'm attached to these characters too. So after some thought I'm fairly neutral. If I get a clear majority I'll go with that; if it's a tie I'll decide.

If we do end up going back, I don't think I'll continue using gestalt. It's been fun and interesting, but mid epic level gameplay doesn't need the complication. Food for thought if you're thinking about going that way.

Edit: I concede I talked more about Balmuria 1 there than Balmuria 2. I don't meant to imply favoritism by it. Continuing Balmuria 2 is self evident with what will happen and doesn't need that sort of elaboration.

[Corwin]

-I don't want a Shar stomp or, really, anything to do with her. She can go troll other potentials for all I care.

-I'm not really interested in playing something else while my current character is hanging in limbo and facing a fate literally worse than death along with pretty much everyone she cares about. If this means fighting it out with what little we have, then that's what I want to do.

-Whimsical Sweets really aren't about making a brighter future, we just do a bunch of random stuff that often tends to be fun. Rather than an affirmation of life, what facing Shar's overpowered agents does is manage to give us massive PTSD. Is there much to fight for? Sure. Does it feel hopeless with Shar being how she is and no one on her level apparently evening out the scales? Yep. (And they don't. No one does. Nothing outside chargen-related situations.)

-Don't have a strong opinion on Arcane Strike. From experience, it needs a nerf if other players are feeling overshadowed by it, and I don't think that really happens so far. I'm with Eb on nova abilities or whatever you call them. It's pretty unreasonable to give them to people who don't have anything holding them back from going all out each time.

-Another thing on the Shar/nihilism/whichever angle. I've been bugging you about having a chance to do something with a more... spiritual? divine? direction. Not change the tone of the game, but really just a chance to have some quest that actually lets me follow Ilmater's wishes or even just travel somewhere on his behalf to see the world more. Shar is apparently opposed by so many, but we haven't had so much as a divine pat on our back for our parts in repeatedly foiling her (even in cases where it would seem we would be watched, like the Marianne and Lyris affair). And even in death, it doesn't seem like our patrons actually care enough to protect our souls or so much as reassure us. Are their games of divinity that entertaining they can't be bothered to take a brief break from them? The only divine influence unrelated to chargen issues in the game is from Shar.  :/

[Yuthirin]

Shar is apparently opposed by so many, but we haven't had so much as a divine pat on our back for our parts in repeatedly foiling her (even in cases where it would seem we would be watched, like the Marianne and Lyris affair). And even in death, it doesn't seem like our patrons actually care enough to protect our souls or so much as reassure us. Are their games of divinity that entertaining they can't be bothered to take a brief break from them? The only divine influence unrelated to chargen issues in the game is from Shar.  :/

Corwin makes a great point here. If Shar's the Dastardly Dan of the gods, why isn't there a more concerted and obvious front set up against her? The gods should know that we've tangled with Senaril before, and frankly, I would think they should be doing more than just converting a lantern archon into a mortal. The remort of my character was cool and all, and gave the feel of official backing, but that's really it. Our group has a walking seal of approval. No holy avengers, no special abilities, no geas, no prophecy, nothing really helping us out here. Really just a "Go Ye Forth And Conquer. Have A Good Time. We'll Watch."

Maybe I'm wrong and I've missed something, but I'm just not feeling it.

That said, I refuse to rest until Senaril's soul is cast into the furthest unknowable reaches of the Far Plane. If we're going to die to Senaril, I want to die to Senaril, not just handwave it.

As for Gestalt or not, I could really care less. It's been a fun way of gaming, but any gaming is usually fun for me.

As for the Solar, I don't want an autokill on Senaril, but a reset to fully rested, shadows destroyed, and a rez or two tossed around wouldn't be terrible. If we still die to Senaril then, well, yeah, we earned it. I'd really like the chance to put some arrows in her.

All in all, I'm in favor of continuing. Option 2.

[Merc]

Vote for which you prefer.

#2, personally. I dislike seeing something end unfinished, and given I just got out of one game that had that sort of ending... even if I won't take part in this fight, #2 is just my preference.

<Janson> Basically, Balmuria is nihilistic to the core. We try to ignore it and have fun and get along, and then you slam us with this stuff.

Barring Senaril, this has been a decently lighthearted and bright game. Senaril shows all the darker for what she's done; it doesn't mean the entire game world is a nihilistic mess. It means people need to stand up and make a better future, like Whimsical Sweets. Senaril said as much, and said that's why she's attacked you guys. The point is to look that misery, despair and bitter hatred in the eye and say, "Fuck you." By what Senaril said, she as much confessed that you could do a lot of good and change things for the better if you keep going. That doesn't mean the world is nihilistic, it means that there's much to fight for and to make the world a brighter, better place.

I wouldn't quite say it's nihilistic either... but at the same time, there's that feeling that something is off that keeps it from quite being lighthearted/bright even through it's better arcs.

Specifically, it doesn't quite feel like there are other forces of good really pulling their weight to make the world such a better place. There are forces that should be -dedicated- to doing this.

We're the mercenaries. We get -paid- to do good things. Sure, we pick and choose our jobs so we're helping out, but at the end of the day, we're still getting paid.

We're seeds of goodness? Heck, we'd never probably get involved with Shar's stuff if some job didn't lead us to that or Shar's followers themselves didn't come for us. See those Lunatics? Alicia's flock? The Crimson Guard? Hello? Shar, Senaril, I gotta tell you...you have an overgrown FOREST out there to deal with before you start worrying about seeds.

But okay, forget that. That Senaril would want to get revenge on Whimsical Sweets is still understandable, we -did- foil her plans before and killed her. Dying hurts!

But as Cor put it:
[15:36] <Aaeru> Apparently I'm strong enough they heard of me in two other countries!
[15:36] <Aaeru> But... they're just as strong? And nobodies?

How is it Senaril can gather all these people under the noses of all the organizations that are dedicated to combating Shar, that none of them are known and just nobodies, but still they're a credible enough threat to possibly kill us, and if not that at least whittle heavily at our resources? Shouldn't some of her forces be out there keeping the rest of the good guys occupied so she can indulge in her petty revenge? And if she is able to gather such a force, shouldn't the good guys have heard at least -something- brewing in the background, and be thinking 'Hmm...there must be something important about these dudes, we should do more to help them stay alive...Shar obviously is investing a LOT in seeing them wiped off the face of every map'?

That said, I don't want to get sidelined by these other groups, obviously. I do like that we're the stars, because hey, we really are! But this arc's also just been depressing in how much Senaril can get away with, and meanwhile the forces of good are just kinda sorta ineffective at their jobs, leaving us to pick up their slack. We keep getting into these fights that whittle away at our hope, and yet we're apparently the world's only hope because the rest of the good guys are just plain useless outside of a person here and there, and Shar's forces are able to target 'em freely? Man, the world's just fucked, isn't it?

My own thoughts? At first I wanted to just say the hell with it. I was frustrated with the entire thing. Once I let that pass, I realized that the game isn't unsalvageable. This has been a brutal arc, but it is just an arc. The survivors can go on and Senaril's hopefully gone. Once I squared that away with myself, I realized that a lot of the appeal of canning this is to go back to the Balmuria 1 PCs, have the other two make new PCs to join in. It could be a Shar stomp like I mentioned on IRC a week ago or whatever. I admit I'm still attached to those characters. On the other hand I'm attached to these characters too. So after some thought I'm fairly neutral. If I get a clear majority I'll go with that; if it's a tie I'll decide.

Even with the complaints above, even with the grindy fights here and there (and I like combat, just like a bit more breathing room between tough fights!)... I've been having a lot of fun in Balmuria, and I've grown attached, but only to my piece of history. I obviously have no attachment to Balmuria 1, I've just never really read up on it outside of a bit here and there, and it's just a bit overwhelming to boot.

That piece of history is just huge, it's why I never even really considered joining during previous recruitment drives for balmuria 1, and I'd feel like a third wheel since instead of getting it in manageable chunks like in Balmuria 2, it'd probably get more crammed in. Going to that epic level gameplay and that vast history really makes me hesitate and I can't muster much interest in that, although at least Yuth would be in the same boat with me, so I'd have someone to commiserate with.

[Ebiris]

Quick post before work.

Voting for 2. By hook or by crook, lets resolve this.

As for my comment about nihilism, Yuth and Merc expanded helpfully on this probably better than I could, but I'll just add that the revelations from the end of Balmuria 1, that the whole setting is the cast-off of a cthulhu-esque elder god that every other god is terrified of, who plans to destroy the setting with Shar as his agent, has always loomed in the background. I honestly do my best to pretend it never happened and go on pretending things are meaningful, but every time Shar comes up it gets driven home again.

If we do go with a new game? I'd rather not drag out old characters - it's totally unfair to Yuth and Merc, and I really don't feel like getting back into epic play. I just want to play in something where it feels like people matter more than the (everythingdies) agendas of ineffable elder gods.

[Merc]

I'll just add that the revelations from the end of Balmuria 1, that the whole setting is the cast-off of a cthulhu-esque elder god that every other god is terrified of, who plans to destroy the setting with Shar as his agent, has always loomed in the background.

...that is pretty depressing, yes. Wow, that's some revelation. >_>;;

[Anastasia]

I'll just add that the revelations from the end of Balmuria 1, that the whole setting is the cast-off of a cthulhu-esque elder god that every other god is terrified of, who plans to destroy the setting with Shar as his agent, has always loomed in the background.

I don't want to get deeply into this, but the point of introducing that wasn't to depress you. It was to set up the potential for you to do something about it. I figure Shar and maybe even Ao would be awesome end bosses if you ever make it that far. Alicia, Seira and the other newly risen powers are a direct attempt to reduce and counter the power of Entropy; it's not like everyone's going quietly into the good night. I've had going back to the power level of Balmuria 1 as an earmarked possibility, and that leaves a plot to run with if we do. I figure, what's a better plot after putting up with Shar than doing something about her on a level that matters to her? I don't want the PC reply to be one of despair, but instead for it to be another challenge to be overcome.  In other words, ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWAH.

All that doesn't directly map to Balmuria 2, but I do feel obligated to explain where I'm coming from with that revelation. It doesn't really justify Senaril and the horrible kill count she's racked up in Balmuria 2 except in a meta sense, and that's not really relevant to the problems here.

Anyway, in regards to today, I'm just gonna post this:

<Yuthirin> I know you just got back, and you have Looming, but you were obviously conflicted about soemthing today with Balmuria. If you want to talk about it, I'm all ears.
> Lemme eat dinner first.
<Yuthirin> Sure.
> I woke up in a bad mood and I knew it wasn't the sort of mood I needed to be in for this. I wasn't going to risk losing my cool because I'm stressed out about my job situation in real life, so.
<Yuthirin> Oh
<Yuthirin> I kind of thought you were mad at us, and I think the others did too
> A little bit, but not seriously, no.
> I'm under a lot of stress but it's not online related.
<Yuthirin> Well yes, I recall not so fondly the time that my players all turned around and told me, quite unceremoniously, that I needed to stop doing what I was doing, because I was really the only one having fun.
<Yuthirin> I was pretty pissed off for a few weeks.
<Yuthirin> But!
<Yuthirin> That's me
> Nah, it's not that. I wouldn't ask for feedback if I didn't want to hear it.
<Yuthirin> Fair enough
> Mind if I post this? I was going to type up something along these lines and post in odds and ends anyway.
<Yuthirin> Yep. Go nuts.
<Yuthirin> I only messaged you in here because the nature is semi private, and you have a game going on.

[Yuthirin]

I still think it would be a really cool thing to redeem Shar, turn her around, and sic her on her former master.

[Ebiris]

Yeah, the fighting of entropy/Shar/Ao can work for high level deific play, and I was willing to take it on those terms "Oh, this is our big plot, same as the gnome God-King was our big plot in regular play", but once it becomes part of canon for low level play (since obviously Alicia and Seira haven't done anything about it in the time between games) it casts an unpleasant pall over the world we perform our comically heroic hijinks in.

It's also a difference in tone. The Crimson Guard in Balmuria were the destined heroes of prophecy - they were badass, they handled the big stuff, and threw themselves into deep shit over and over with the full backing of their city and their Gods. Whimsical Sweets are a merry band of mercenaries who cause trouble as much as fix it, are generally regular people, and are named after a sweet shop. That last part just makes it feel like senseless bullying for evil dark world ending goddesses to spare us their personal attention, because they should be wholly above dealing with such pissants as us. By this level in Balmuria 1 we were fighting for the fate of the world, retrieving artifacts of legend, all that stuff. Whimsical Sweets go on quests to get rare herbs to make beer with.

[Anastasia]

Yeah, the fighting of entropy/Shar/Ao can work for high level deific play, and I was willing to take it on those terms "Oh, this is our big plot, same as the gnome God-King was our big plot in regular play", but once it becomes part of canon for low level play (since obviously Alicia and Seira haven't done anything about it in the time between games) it casts an unpleasant pall over the world we perform our comically heroic hijinks in.

It's also a difference in tone. The Crimson Guard in Balmuria were the destined heroes of prophecy - they were badass, they handled the big stuff, and threw themselves into deep shit over and over with the full backing of their city and their Gods. Whimsical Sweets are a merry band of mercenaries who cause trouble as much as fix it, are generally regular people, and are named after a sweet shop. That last part just makes it feel like senseless bullying for evil dark world ending goddesses to spare us their personal attention, because they should be wholly above dealing with such pissants as us. By this level in Balmuria 1 we were fighting for the fate of the world, retrieving artifacts of legend, all that stuff. Whimsical Sweets go on quests to get rare herbs to make beer with.

To the former, it's certain Alicia and Seira and all the others are fighting her. It just hasn't shown on screen, and just 'cause you guys are fighting Hell doesn't mean a few devils can't sneak in and raise some trouble up. It's just not really something you see much - had Andrea survived the first Senaril mess this would have come up. Plus, taking down a Greater Power and possibly an Overgod isn't the task of 20, 200 or even maybe 2,000 years.  Defeating Shar is a grand quest on the scale of history itself, not something you do in a single quest. Are they opposing her and working against her? Naturally. If Shar was easy to wax, Selune would've managed it a long time ago. If I ever get a chance to DM that type story, it would be on that scale. It's a battle of immortals and powers, of long maneuvering and epic clashes.

No argument with the latter half of that post. It's part of why I'm not happy with how this has turned out. If you guys kicked her ass and dealt with her, it was cool and inched you into some more heroic options. It hasn't worked out that way at all. So hey, I have Senaril say some stuff to make everything make more sense and make it more personal. Give you some possible hooks out of it, you know? Shar is a bitch, this is established again and you could even devote yourselves to smacking her shit in if you wanted. Anyway yeah, the entire thing has had some problems and you guys have managed to drop like flies so it's not working.

I still think it would be a really cool thing to redeem Shar, turn her around, and sic her on her former master.

Hey, if you ever get that far, go for it. I like your attitude there, even if it's one hell of a tall order.

[Corwin]

I want to support Eb 100%. Here are the key points, again:

-The Crimson Guard were heroes with all the backing and power both real and political. Us, we are seen as a cool bunch of dudes. A nonevil Blackwater, say. When I so much as wonder if I might know if the Crimson Guard is planning to get involved in a war and might need/want our help with things (say keeping things quiet on the local front), I get smacked down for being an outsider. It feels like you want to have it both ways. To the city and its people, we are (powerful) nobodies, but the villains of the universe zero in on us just the same as if we were world leaders.

-Alicia and Seira really haven't done anything. Oh, I'm sure they're fighting and all, but let's be frank. If Shar has time to piss off the beer plant-gathering sweets shop, I'm sure either of the benign powers could've had time for plots and counter-plots of their own. You're saying the Good Guys are fighting on the macro level. Okay... but it obviously doesn't preclude Shar from delving into the micro level in parallel to that, and the absence of anything of the sort on the other side is most glaring.

-Why did Andrea have to survive for something to come up? If Seira and Alicia were watching Marianne and Lyris, I'm sure they could've just as well talked to her remaining friends. Well, sent someone over to talk. Left a note. Whatever. Could've been any of the other deities, either.

-To dip into B1-specficic stuff for a sec, no one really tackled the God-King despite specific intentions to empower our strongest mortal allies and entrusting them with that explicit task. Considering that B2 wasn't going to focus on that and that the added benefit of success there literally means limiting Shar's influence on this world, why the delay? It only makes sense if you consider them incompetent off screen and too occupied with the games of divinity (ie fighting Shar on the macro level). Could've shown us that they were actually doing something, and it's the most 'micro' they can make it.

-The beer-making plant quest sounded so awesome. Do you really think we can go on it now? Could we go on it and have fun even had we survived Senaril intact (after the losses of Yuria and Orval)? It just clashes so horribly. Aaeru would want to curl away somewhere and cry for a few months, not go look for beer in the desert. That's what Shar does to the game.

-I won't even comment on redeeming Shar.

[Corwin]

I like chatting with people, learning about them, having them get to know me better in turn. It came as a surprise, actually, when I learned that I'm probably in the minority with regard to that. Sure, it hasn't always been a hit (the home visit was very much a miss, I think, for some reason) but overall it's been very fun. Whether it's while helping a woman kick her cheating husband out or when chatting with the captain or more personal interactions with others in our group.

I enjoy doing the lighter stuff. With us being just random adventurers, there are strange opportunities that the true defenders of the city never really get. Putting on shows, hunting for strange ingredients... I still have to shake my head at the beer quest. I've always expected that as soon as it is feasible (ie we get plane shift or something along those lines) that another quest to go recruit Simmer all over again would open.

I liked doing stuff that appealed to my code from time to time. Going after the werewolf and bringing him back alive to be cured, going on a rescue mission to Hell, standing up to a high-ranked cleric of Helm and actually having him listen to me. I really liked doing good things for others, and not out of the necessity of self defense.

Also, since we're pretty much ordinary people it was a nice chance to have a family, whether it's Aaeru and Neve or Janson with Sylvie and her son and mother and their house of maids and tutors. It's a really nice touch, I think, when you can get that. You're not 100% about work and serving your country, and you're not a retired innkeep/magic shop owner. It's somewhere in between. Again, that's pretty nice, and I don't see it happen much in games beyond a brief, momentary focus.

[Corwin]

Replacing Mirror Image with Alter Self at lvl8.

[Anastasia]

Level up notes.

Josa - Not much. He got a major aura and went with motivate care. He also got a few more 4th level spells and that's it. Not a huge level for him. He added his +1 stat bonus to charisma.

Sylvie - Nothing huge here. She got the chameleon floating feat, I put it in Ability Focus(Stunning Fist) for the moment.

Neveril: > roll 1d6 Neveril
* Hatbot --> "Kokokokokoko rolls 1d6 Neveril and gets 6." [1d6=6]
> Corwin cheers in his sleep.

+2 charisma from Sirene Paragon is nice and she gets evasion and an open feat with martial rogue 2. I'm thinking about moving Weapon Finesse there - or ditching it altogether - and filling that 3rd level feat with a more useful ability. Any suggestions? I was looking at obtain familiar, though it would strictly be a Seirat style familiar for her. Other suggestions welcome.

I'll do Balyss later.

[Anastasia]

New sheet audit for Eb's new girl. You said it's about done besides for gear, so.

Alignment should be Neutral Exalted, not Exalted Neutral.

How do you have AC 20? I see +2 dex and +2 armor. Oh I see, glamered chain mail+3. Make sure to adjust your armor value off of +2.

Everything else looks good.