Random DM nagging.

[Anastasia]

I'm going to reserve the exact right to choose your arch enemies, but suggestions are welcome.

[Anastasia]

For the sake of character design, I'll mention that I'm leaning strongly towards devils. I know them and I agree with Cor that they fit best into the game concept. So some anti-evil outsiders abilities would help, and if you're going to rely on fire damage you may want to invest in ways to work around immunity. Silvered weapons wouldn't hurt, either.

[Yuthirin]

There's a whole lot of Devil love going on here! What about Demons?

I like the shattered world theme, though. Some sort of cataclysm occurs, kicking us and multitudes of others all over the multiverse! We could round them up, and add extras!

[Merc]

Shattered world sounds cool. Don't really know what else to add in though.

[Anastasia]

There's a whole lot of Devil love going on here! What about Demons?

Well, I have a superb 3rd party supplement for devils for one thing. For another, they do the conquering tyrants better than demons and are more likely to hold their gains. Besides, I'm sure you'll have plenty of chances to bash demon heads in and wish that succubus would give you her number.

[Yuthirin]

Dude, she was my MOM.

[Anastasia]

So? She'd think that's kinda hot.

[Yuthirin]

Dude. Demons are creepy.

[Anastasia]

No shit.

[Corwin]

I have several comments about our origin story and I wanted to get them out there for everyone to comment if they so wish. I'll try to keep them to concise bullet points.

-The doomed world scenario is as I expected. It's grimmer than I figured, but I did ask for something like it and it fit my expectations.

-That it was a world where Good has won bothers me. I think it kinda ties into http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101114.msg1023314.html#msg1023314 for me. Is anything we do meaningless? Say we save the world. Does it just mean a few hundred years down the line it'll happen again? Even though it was a virtual paradise, Bel (almost) personally invaded it, and only the natives fought to defend it. Does the Side of Good invade Evil-controlled worlds to turn them into paradises? Does it defend worlds directly challenged by Hell? The implied answers to these questions are very troubling for me.

-The starting position is right after the disaster. I imagined it to be more in the sense of Titan A.E. or any number of similar settings (where a timeskip took place after the disaster, and the survivors tried to rebuild their lives in exile). Our chars are shaped by those experiences and driven by the need to do something, but it is not an all-consuming, ever-pressing need. I can chill out in a bar on Astral and have a drink without thinking that OH GOD THE LESS FORTUNATE ARE STILL BEING SLAUGHTERED AS I WAIT. The war is still going on and I ran away and every moment that passes innocents die. So does it mean innocents won't be dying 10 years down the line? 20 years? Hardly. But it would mean that the war is over and that we lost, and the sense of urgency diminishes and allows us to be less singularly focused on one thing and one thing only.

-That thing is impossible. To have it literally claimed by Bel means we need to take out Bel, unless we delude ourselves into thinking Bel will take the shiner of freeing our world with a smile and be a good sport about it. But that's so impossible for us even at level 30 it's not even funny. Did it really need to be Bel, personally, in whose name the world was claimed? I guess at least it's not Asmodeus....

-Minor gripe, but wouldn't it be cooler to meet up IC instead of having us already be a group? It would feel more natural to me to get to know my pals for real instead of having to be told OOC that here, these are your pals. It ties a lot into the timeskip issue, too.

[Ebiris]

I find myself agreeing with Cor's concerns, more or less.

Rather than our world being one that fought the good fight and righteously kicked evil butt only to suddenly get it's own ass kicked ten times harder a few centuries later, having it be 'innocent' might work better. If you've ever played Dungeon Keeper you hopefully visualise it clearly, but basically make it a world that hasn't had to fight evil before. Or for another analogue, compare any 'Aliens invade modern day Earth' movie with any 'Interstellar Space Federation War Space Opera' movie. In the first Earth has no experience fighting these things, and thus it's no surprise it got taken down so quickly and easily, since it also has no space-borne allies. Maybe it's a world like Balmuria's used to be before those seals started getting broken, or like a 'nice' mirror to Dark Sun - basically cut off from the planes. There are legends and such, and characters such as ourselves indicate some level of contact, but it's basically not a part of life there.

So yeah, that might be a better starting point, and as for the attack I think a Lord of the Nine is a bit much unless we level up like motherfuckers. I was thinking a made up Archfiend might be better - perhaps one analogous to Pazuzzu (Demon Lord of the Skies), which fits with our planet being shattered into floating islands. Having a made up one gives a lot more leeway as far as his traits, history, and style goes, and it gives us a more reasonable foe to take on - he can still be powerful as all get out, but it's better for this sort of game to have a singular 'evil emperor' rather than our BBEG just being a cog on the massive infernal machine.

I strongly agree that we need a 'the war's over, Jonny' vibe rather than a press for an immediate rally and counterattack. A timeskip works well for that, and it gives nice opportunities to roleplay either unwavering hope no matter how long it takes, or being dispirited and thinking it's all over before finding something to believe in again. I don't think it should be a huge timeskip of the sort that we could fully build new lives within, but a couple of months to a year could be enough.

Maybe when it starts we're all on plane X for whatever reason - passing through, looking for something, have already settled there, and we all hear rumours of other survivors from our world, prompting us to meet up. Then upon seeing fellow badass dudes it's easy to start thinking "Know what? We can do something!" Maybe one of us already has a lead on something that can kick us off on our first adventure and lead towards finding our mobile fortress?

[Anastasia]

-That it was a world where Good has won bothers me. I think it kinda ties into http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101114.msg1023314.html#msg1023314 for me. Is anything we do meaningless? Say we save the world. Does it just mean a few hundred years down the line it'll happen again? Even though it was a virtual paradise, Bel (almost) personally invaded it, and only the natives fought to defend it. Does the Side of Good invade Evil-controlled worlds to turn them into paradises? Does it defend worlds directly challenged by Hell? The implied answers to these questions are very troubling for me.

Of course what you do isn't meaningless. There's a mystery afoot as well. If Hell could just make portals into worlds and take them like that, why don't they do it more often? Something is way off course here and that's something you should be exploring in game.

-That thing is impossible. To have it literally claimed by Bel means we need to take out Bel, unless we delude ourselves into thinking Bel will take the shiner of freeing our world with a smile and be a good sport about it. But that's so impossible for us even at level 30 it's not even funny. Did it really need to be Bel, personally, in whose name the world was claimed? I guess at least it's not Asmodeus....

1. If you're already thinking it's impossible, quit and go home. No really. I thought I was explicit there, but I want PCs who are willing to fight. When your first OOC reply is that, you might not be cut out for this game. The odds ARE long, no doubt about it. That just means I'll be working to give you guys a scenario where you can build up and have a fair chance to win. Considering what the entire genesis of this game is based around, what do you expect?

2. Let's say you eventually beat Abigor - a Duke of Hell and a lot less potent than Bel - and save the world. Let's further assume you guys do something to stop this from happening again immediately. What do you have there? Why, you have a hated enemy and a hook to continue on later in the game.

-Minor gripe, but wouldn't it be cooler to meet up IC instead of having us already be a group? It would feel more natural to me to get to know my pals for real instead of having to be told OOC that here, these are your pals. It ties a lot into the timeskip issue, too.

Up to you guys, really. I made the last bit less detailed and vague since I wasn't sure if you guys were gonna wanna know each other or not.

[Anastasia]

I strongly agree that we need a 'the war's over, Jonny' vibe rather than a press for an immediate rally and counterattack. A timeskip works well for that, and it gives nice opportunities to roleplay either unwavering hope no matter how long it takes, or being dispirited and thinking it's all over before finding something to believe in again. I don't think it should be a huge timeskip of the sort that we could fully build new lives within, but a couple of months to a year could be enough.

If you guys want a timeskip I have no problem there.

Maybe when it starts we're all on plane X for whatever reason - passing through, looking for something, have already settled there, and we all hear rumours of other survivors from our world, prompting us to meet up. Then upon seeing fellow badass dudes it's easy to start thinking "Know what? We can do something!" Maybe one of us already has a lead on something that can kick us off on our first adventure and lead towards finding our mobile fortress?

Whatever works. I'd rather avoid the whole awkward meeting phase of things if possible.

[Corwin]

Being able to take out Bel stretches my disbelief past the limits, yeah. So does Bel not caring about us kicking his forces out after he claimed it for himself so openly. If Abigor claimed the world for himself I could believe again.

On the meeting being awkward, maybe! But that's also fun, and we don't get informed friendship and camaraderie. I never know how I'm supposed to act around people I supposedly have as my best friends and family when I meet them the first time IC.

[Anastasia]

Being able to take out Bel stretches my disbelief past the limits, yeah. So does Bel not caring about us kicking his forces out after he claimed it for himself so openly. If Abigor claimed the world for himself I could believe again.

Of course he'd care about it. Again, assuming you stop whatever allowed countless Hell portals to open, he can't do a repeat of things. Bel being your enemy doesn't mean you win by marching into Avernus and killing him - though if you can do it more power to you - but you win by saving your world and stopping him from doing it again. If after you win you decide to take a run at Bel himself, that gives you a plot to continue the game on.

Really I shouldn't be saying this, but since you don't want to take the premise of the game on face value?