Coping mechanisms

[Brian]

They got their pages before they went downhill; we can make the same argument for K:BDH, probably.

Getting a page only takes a small handful of tropers (technically, just one) caring enough to do so -- this is more likely to happen if a series is ongoing and multiple chapter.  There's very few works that have pages if they weren't being actively written while tvtropes is around.

And of course, yeah, if the author makes his own page, that's not a huge plus.  There was a thread on forums.spacebattles about this nonsense; havocface or whatever had decided to list me among the authors who create/edit their own pages.  I replied to be my normal Jerkass self and called him an idiot and asked for proof -- then explained that I feel authors who do this lack humility, and I find it difficult to respect them.  (Then told him to check both the history of those pages, and my own edit history, which would offer proof more easily than him just whining.)

But this hearkens back to forums.spacebattles and their, "We're like a fanfiction-oriented Something Awful, only less productive and mature!" stance WRT hating on tvtropes for reasons I don't understand (or care to).

Erg.

[Arakawa]

Don't worry; I was more thinking of the sort of "lulzfic" Brian had complained about a few weeks back and, looking for a simple description, remembered the worst of the TNG plots involving Q, the sort of thing where they all have to play Robin Hood just because. (It being my (possibly mistaken) understanding that a lot of those lulzfics like to have Haruhi causing the madness.) Nothing to do with your writing at all.

Ah. I have apparently been spared the worst of the Q stories, since the stuff I remember Q actually has some form of motivation. I guess I was just feeling a bit jumpy since I'm in the predicament where I have to figure out how to write divergent characters without turning people off the fic.

Lulzfics are indeed unlikely to help me in narrowing down what to avoid in this particular case.

It would actually be kind of odd , since I haven't even posted enough of a conclusion. (EDIT: Hooray for gibberish!)

(EDIT: This is why I should re-read before posting. Meant to say:

Now that I think of it, it would actually be kind of odd for that to have been referring to my fic, since I haven't even posted enough of it to make "Haruhi is acting like Q" -- in any sense of the word -- a certain conclusion.)

It seems to me that having a trope page means "some tropers liked this" more than "I am likely to like this". For example, Nobody Dies and Shinji and Warhammer 40K, two NGE fics which (IMO, obviously) had strong potential but squandered it by flanderization. Also, two NGE fics that are loved by sufficiently-large amounts of tropers.

I guess that's the important difference between the trope paragraph you would occasionally see under the old system, versus a trope page. Getting it down to a paragraph gives you a very good idea of what exactly is saliently unique about the fic, so it might be a good sign if people are actually able to do that for the fic.

They got their pages before they went downhill; we can make the same argument for K:BDH, probably.

Getting a page only takes a small handful of tropers (technically, just one) caring enough to do so -- this is more likely to happen if a series is ongoing and multiple chapter.  There's very few works that have pages if they weren't being actively written while tvtropes is around.

Meh. Like I said, the other explanation for why something makes it onto tvtropes is just sheer popularity. But if something is popular that's a sure sign of either:

(1) It's actually pretty good, or

(2) Extraordinary Dumbness of Crowds!

So maybe having a tropes page is not a reliable indicator, but it's still worth watching for. From my point of view even (2) itself can happen for somewhat curious reasons.

But this hearkens back to forums.spacebattles and their, "We're like a fanfiction-oriented Something Awful, only less productive and mature!" stance WRT hating on tvtropes for reasons I don't understand (or care to).

Erg.

Right... I've figured out that I can't take spacebattles seriously enough to bother not taking them seriously. Maybe someday they'll get their search engine re-enabled...

*mind reels from having to wade through reams of Dalek lolcats just to follow fic*

[Arakawa]

Meh. Like I said, the other explanation for why something makes it onto tvtropes is just sheer popularity.

And I heard the 'it only takes one enthusiastic troper to start a page' bit. It's still a nontrivial feat of chance for an unrelated troper to be enthusiastic enough to do so, and the chance increases with popularity.

This doesn't apply, however, if it's just someone doing it on behalf of the author. So I guess the third explanation would be just along the lines of self- or peer- promotion.

[thepanda]

1. Descriptions.

If the author can't be asses to write a real summary I can't be asses to read it. And by summary I mean of the fic, not just the latest chapter.

The length of the fic, gratuitous Japanese, poor spelling or grammar, ect; if I can spot problems before I even open the fic proper I won't on the fic at all.

Also, there are certain series that I like that I won't read certain genres in. (AWKWARD SENTENCE!) Magical Girls and angst/dark for example.

2. I don't look to see if something is going down the drain. Even some of my favorite fics tend to be uneven. It's like when Dracos complains that Time Braid got really dark in places; I agree, but the ending was worth going through that. However...

3. ...that isn't to say that I feel I need to finish every story I start. There are plenty of stories I've dropped. Many were from boredom. Others I realized would never reach the potential of their premises. Some were written so poorly that it hurt to read even when I remained curious about where the story was headed.

And then there is the rape. I cannot recall a single fanfic that handled rape well.

At all.

Hell, I dropped a book by a published writer I liked at the time because the Rape as Motivation that he dropped into the middle of the story pissed me off so much.

If it becomes obvious the author is heavily invested in bashing characters they don't like. I dropped that Yu Yu Hakusho/Negima fic for this reason.

If events in the story don't make sense. Say you're reading a story where Louise summons Dark Schneider instead of Saito, there should be no way your story is ten chapters in and still progressing like canon!

I'll just omit the rest of my crossover-specific pet peeves. >_>

And finally, I hate when authors talk to you, the reader, in the body of their work. I don't just mean the sorts of things best left for author's notes; I'm referring to those times when authors suddenly jump from passive to active voice.

So. Damn. Jarring.

[Muphrid]

And finally, I hate when authors talk to you, the reader, in the body of their work. I don't just mean the sorts of things best left for author's notes; I'm referring to those times when authors suddenly jump from passive to active voice.

These kind of sound like two different things?  Regardless, directly addressing the reader as the author is painful.

...though I've been known to have a third-person narrator be heard by a character when said character was weak and hallucinating.  Maybe that's too much of a fourth-wall bend.

And then there is the rape. I cannot recall a single fanfic that handled rape well.

At all.

Hell, I dropped a book by a published writer I liked at the time because the Rape as Motivation that he dropped into the middle of the story pissed me off so much.

*files that away for future reference*

[Anastasia]

1. How do you filter out the first wave of crap? Story descriptions (particularly on ff.net) can be a heavy hint, but what other methods do you use to sort out the definite crud from the possibly-decent stuff?

Summaries, then profiles and finally reviews. The first is obvious enough, the second can help you figure out of this is a serious author or a 12 year old pasting in whatevever crap they want. The third lets you get opinions, and more importantly, see who is reviewing a story. The right names with good reviews do more to sell me on a potential story than anything else.

2. Once you're reading something that's possibly good, what kinds of things do you look for to indicate that the story has potential to be good or is descending into drek? What are you willing to ignore and what turns up as an immediate red flag?

This is a matter of playing it by ear. There's no set sign, it's the sort of thing you have to figure out as you're reading.

3. If you're reading a marginally good story that starts to go sour, is there a point at which you stop reading it? Is there anything in particular that can tip the scales on that, or is it just a buildup of distaste until you abandon the fic?

Depends. If something I find entirely unpleasing happens, I'll bail. For example, a Ranma/other girl fic abruptly returning to Ranma/Akane will do this to me, guaranteed. Otherwise I'll just fade away from following it after a few chapters of growing disinterest.

[Brian]

Hell, I dropped a book by a published writer I liked at the time because the Rape as Motivation that he dropped into the middle of the story pissed me off so much.

The Gap Cycle?  No, wait--  Same author, wrong title--  Lord Foul's Bane?

And finally, I hate when authors talk to you, the reader, in the body of their work. I don't just mean the sorts of things best left for author's notes; I'm referring to those times when authors suddenly jump from passive to active voice.

So. Damn. Jarring.

Er.  You mean fourth-wall-breaks in general?  Authors should always be writing in the active voice anyway, usually.

[thepanda]

I was thinking Richard A. Knaak but I seem to be mistaken? I think it was one of those Dragonlance authors, though not in a Dragonlance book.

And, yeah, that's what I meant. Don't know why I called it passive/active.

[Brian]

Well, it's jarring and moves you from a passive enjoyment (reader) into active participation (except it's illusory; you can't actually engage in a dialog, so why bother)?

[Jason_Miao]

1. How do you filter out the first wave of crap? Story descriptions (particularly on ff.net) can be a heavy hint, but what other methods do you use to sort out the definite crud from the possibly-decent stuff?

a) Seeing if it's in the "reading now" thread in this forum, I'll give it a shot.  Or otherwise, if someone I know who writes well recommends it, I'll give it a shot.
b) If the description has poor grammar, I avoid the story like the plague.
c) Particularly pointing out that the writer is intentionally bashing characters.  Because if ranting at a non-existent person using other non-existent characters as one's mouthpiece is a highlight of a story, the rest of the story is unlikely to be very good.
d) Advertising certain couples, not because I dislike the matchup per se, but because so many people have written the same matchup with the the relationship developing in the same way that most of those stories have become boring.  e.g, I usually avoid stories that advertise a Ranma-Akane matchup as their focus.  I actually rather like the Akane from the manga, but most people use Akane from the anime and there's only so many ways you can write up a story of a boy and a 2-dimensional psychotic.  Or if not that, then it's usually a generic romance story with the labels "Ranma" and "Akane" slapped onto generic characters.

2. Once you're reading something that's possibly good, what kinds of things do you look for to indicate that the story has potential to be good or is descending into drek? What are you willing to ignore and what turns up as an immediate red flag?

Those are two separate statements, but I think the second one is what really applies, so I'll answer that: My "red flag" is whatever annoys me sufficiently to make me stop reading.

There's the occasional crap story that I know is crap but I am interested in reading anyway, even if I hate 99% of stories that are crap.  Sometimes, the writer just has a turn of phrase here or there that piques my interest, or is particularly good at a writing skill I'm interested in, even if the rest of their technique is lacking.

To me, reading stories( and especially fanfic) is a leisure activity, so once I've begun reading a story, I'll continue until I no longer feel like reading the story or I've reached the end.

3. If you're reading a marginally good story that starts to go sour, is there a point at which you stop reading it? Is there anything in particular that can tip the scales on that, or is it just a buildup of distaste until you abandon the fic?

The answer to #2.  If I want to continue to read, I'll read.  If I don't, I'll stop.

@Bri:
The rape in both of those stories are fairly close to the beginning of the first book of the series.  If I'm understanding thePanda correctly, it's probably one of those stories where the rape gets dropped in as a shocking revelation about 60-70% of the way in.  And maybe used as a "FEEL SORRY FOR CHARACTER X!  DO IT!  DO EEEEEIT!" bludgeon if the writer is particularly bad.

[Dracos]

How do I filter?

Well, my general navigation strategy usually starts with people's favorites or a Recc list when entering a fandom.  It's rare I'll enter reading a fanfic fandom without something like that to get started.  Next, I tend to look for 100k or more word fics.  This isn't to say there isn't amazing short stories, but usually you hear about those more since there's less effort to devour and share them.  100k implies that an author has spent a considerable amount of time invested into writing the fic and is likely to continue doing so in the future.  It doesn't make it not garbage, but the majority of cruddy fics simply don't have that kinda staying power.   The summary is next.  Does it have some interesting hook or play to some whimsical like of mine? 

At this point, in a given fandom I've filtered down to less than 5 percent of the fics, for any given fandom (possibly not harry potter due to scale).  For many fandoms, that's a mere handful of fics total.  At this point my next is the first chapter.  Do I see an all powerful OC, a ridiculous bashing, openly poor writing, or super-char right away?  If so, fic likely closed.  If not, congrats, I'll likely keep reading.

I don't generally look for reasons to stop.  I might take a break for a bit though.  Time Braid's mind-rape/betrayal scenes had me waiting for the fic to progress until that segment was done with.

Mmm, what does it?  Sudden extreme writing quality drops will.  Open trolling will.  Killing/disabling/crippling/raping a character I like will ("I was cheering this person and now they're a smear on the wall.  Done here.").  Losing track of what is going on or the characters will, with Multi-verse fics getting a special note as one of the few effective ways to do that to me.  ("Welcome to dimension AC51512, it seems Everybody Dies Here")  Other than that, if you've gotten me reading for an hour or two, I'm honestly looking toward seeing you succeed and quite tolerant of even minor waves of badness.

I think Gate's take is also worth noting.  If a fic has gotten mediocre/boring enough, it's less I drop it and more I just don't have a hook pulling me back.  It's only real journeys into badness that have me intentionally drop a fic.

[Yuthirin]

Step 1: Let Anastasia read it first. If he doesn't have a complete meltdown, it might be worth reading.