[Haruhi] The Coin

[Arakawa]

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Regarding the choice of keeping vs. rejecting omnipotence, I personally think Haruhi has an obligation to keep her powers (not just putting them on some kind of irreversible auto mode), provided that she can trust herself not to do things she'll later regret and can't reverse without violating even more ethical taboos. (Doing something like erasing the Entity would in fact prove that she can't trust herself, and she'd instead have an obligation to relinquish her powers.)

It's a fairly simple ethical calculation: assuming that you can trust yourself to decide correctly in the future, why would you arbitrarily deprive yourself of options? (If you can't trust yourself, that's a different story, of course.)

Ultimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into even more boxes).

Right, but if I read the story correctly they're trying to make the word aware of the existence of aliens, time-travelers, and espers, without cheating? Publishing a fictionalized version of their experiences is... I still don't get how that accomplishes that. EDIT: I mean, I'm just still generally confused at how the reader was intended to understand it.

Anyhow, it's been a very interesting ride. Thank you for your work... I'm sorry again that for the last couple of chapters some unrelated RL nonsense broke me out of my C&Cing mood. (Hopefully I'll get back into it in time...) Having the ending clear, however, has put the story on a much more solid footing.

[Anastasia]

Edit: Oh, man, fridged again:

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Unfortunate Implications, this time: What does Mikuru's 'Haven't seen you in so long!'/hug for Kyon mean if she's still friends with Haruhi in the future?

[spoiler]

I assumed it was referring to current time Kyon, who is probably fairly different than any future Kyon. Going back to visit him is different to her than visiting a future Kyon? Just my take.

[Brian]

Man, today is fridgey.  An answer to my own fridge logic on Taniguchi.  You may already have far better plans than this, but:

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Going back to the themes you want to explore (I think), something that connects 'Haruhi needs her powers to protect her friends' angle to both the 'but she has to use her powers responsibly' subject and Taniguchi's weird motivations for picking a fight with Haruhi.  As a bonus, it can even make Haruhi more sympathetic and still tie to Mori's speech.

What if instead of picking a fight with Haruhi, he just wants to grouse/vent at her, but it's Kyon who escalates things?  Taniguchi getting zapped for (almost) throwing a punch at Kyon would then fit, and also help justify Kyon's silence in the following scenes, since he's now also partially responsible.  Plus, it puts an early, clear indication that yes, she really does care/desire to protect her friends.

WRT Taniguchi's frustrations, there's also an easy window for him to actually call back to his last dunking snd complain about Kyon not istening last time, or maybe just that 'Haruhi didn't have to listen to it this time, and she sure as hell should this time!' or the like?

Just something that occured to me on the drive home; hope that at least sparks off an idea for you.

Edit:  Bah, softkeys.

[Muphrid]

I think I'm just going to go with one big spoiler box now.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'any use of powers is inflicting a negative change.'  But in regards to that last bit, I can't personally see how that last clause is any worse (or, honestly even different) from: 'She has her powers because she gave herself her powers.'  Maybe it's just me. >_>;;

I have to admit -- as big as this seemed in scope from the begining that reveal is kinda....  I dunno how else to say it?  Makes Haruhi's powers feel somehow kind of bratty themselves, if that makes any sense?  'Powers exist because they want to,' and 'Haruhi has to keep her powers to undo the things she's done'.  Even 'to protect herself' is kind of sketchy as an excuse, since she could just permanently turn them into some auto state and give up her conscious control -- just have her powers work to protect her and the brigade in the background.  (I think this is exactly the thing that you don't like, though it seems on the same level as the other ideas above, IMO.)

The main reason I even point this is out ... well, veering towards the K:BDH interpetation -- Haruhi wanting to keep her powers and have fun with them absolutely rings true.  Wouldn't have used that interpetation if I didn't think it wasn't on some level entirely plausible.  Wanting to keep them even after everything that's happened in your fic?  That can work, too.

But from a character growth angle, instead of using the time travel elements at all, why can't you ignore the question of where her power came from &cetera -- and just have her have an earnest heart-to-heart with Kyon about what she should do with them?

And he can honestly tell her that he thinks if she listens to her friends, and is careful, things will work out.  It lets you get that same 'future spoiler' effect, since Kyon has explicit memories that suggest that's exactly right (future Haruhi in college) -- and gives you a nice callback to the book.  How much of it he tells her, or if it's only made clear to the reader....  Just a thought.

So I'll be honest here:  when I conceived of this story, really before I had any other ideas about what it was or what it was about, I had the idea for what's now the concluding scene of 9:  Haruhi in the past, with Kyon at her side as the voice of reason, facing her younger self and realizing, to her surprise, that in growing up from that middle school girl, she forgot something.  She got wound up in finding interesting things and people so much that she forgot it was about the journey, so to speak.  I clung to that scene even after the massive outline restructuring as a result of (principally) your criticism of chapter four.  If I had to say the story is about one thing, it's that scene.  The dressing is a bit different--there's a strong angle about fixing the brigade's regrets through powers and rejecting that notion, too--but the core is the same.

I expect this is strange sort of "system".  To borrow from my physics background, you could call it "boundary condition" writing, where the story "solution" is constructed to match the scenes that are already known.  If I had to assess the way that thought process works, it lets me work toward well-defined, known powerful moments, but sometimes the logic and reasoning that bridges the gaps can be...lacking.  That's my guess, anyway.

The time travel elements are difficult to extricate aside from that, though.  In 9 and 10, Asahina (bigger) reveals herself, and she explains that since realizing the intrinsic horror of meddling in past people's lives (which happened in 7 with Asahina (big) ), she's dedicated her life to trying to undo that damage and give Haruhi in particular the ability to make a meaningful choice again.  While I like this element because it suggests a stronger bond between Haruhi and Asahina in the future (which is hinted at, even if Haruhi existing in the future isn't per se), I do see how the time travel stuff adds a bit of complexity.  I was thinking just that when writing this--that eight chapters of the story aren't really concerned with any of that, but nine is and could feel weird because of that.

I don't mean to dismiss the notion of a simpler resolution (Haruhi and Kyon talking and working things out) out of hand, but there would be some systematic changes involved.

Makes me think maybe writing the whole thing at once would be better, so such changes wouldn't have to fight the inertia of what's come before.

It doesn't feel consistent to me that Haruhi misses such basic lessons in the chapters I read -- and suddenly manages to get this much bigger one later on.  I get that you're trying to avoid it, but it doesn't also feel true to Haruhi's character.  To quote a renowned film director of the Nishinomiya area:

"I hate those movies where the hero dies at the end!  So nothing like that in ours."  (Somewhat paraphrased -- but how does she handle the Story of Rooter in this context?)

And the issues can be sidestepped with all kinds of temporal cheating; I believe Haruhi would be able to make this exception to herself, at the very least.  And she could also find a way to make it work with Kyon's (evident) insistence that time not be tampered with unduly, re: the Chrono Trigger plan.  It may feel like it undermines other points, but if played right, and in the 'taking responsibility' angle, also might tie into the 'and will also release the IDSE at some point' ending.

Part of it, on reflection, may be that you needed Haruhi to witness the death of a character in order to motivate her to positive change -- even after the Mori conversation.  Somehow, this feels like it's an awful lot to have her reach that turning point; maybe I'm just searching for a way to mitigate that effect.

Honestly, yeah, an exception for stuff Haruhi's already involved in with powers was something I initially wanted to do.  At least, before trying to side-step the issue entirely.

Right, but if I read the story correctly they're trying to make the word aware of the existence of aliens, time-travelers, and espers, without cheating? Publishing a fictionalized version of their experiences is... I still don't get how that accomplishes that. EDIT: I mean, I'm just still generally confused at how the reader was intended to understand it.

I saw it as a slow, deliberate way to get the general populace comfortable with the idea of aliens, time-travelers, and espers among them.  Admittedly, that can't possibly get across in what's written.  Is that something that could work if there were more text there to explain the reasoning (like what I just said)?  Because on thinking about that, I can't imagine any other action that would do that, and ending with no action (just a resolution of what goal to shoot for) might seem anticlimactic.  I think.

Regarding Taniguchi:

Going back to the themes you want to explore (I think), something that connects 'Haruhi needs her powers to protect her friends' angle to both the 'but she has to use her powers responsibly' subject and Taniguchi's weird motivations for picking a fight with Haruhi.  As a bonus, it can even make Haruhi more sympathetic and still tie to Mori's speech.

What if instead of picking a fight with Haruhi, he just wants to grouse/vent at her, but it's Kyon who escalates things?  Taniguchi getting zapped for (almost) throwing a punch at Kyon would then fit, and also help justify Kyon's silence in the following scenes, since he's now also partially responsible.  Plus, it puts an early, clear indication that yes, she really does care/desire to protect her friends.

WRT Taniguchi's frustrations, there's also an easy window for him to actually call back to his last dunking snd complain about Kyon not istening last time, or maybe just that 'Haruhi didn't have to listen to it this time, and she sure as hell should this time!' or the like?

I like this quite a bit, and Kyon coming to Haruhi's defense strongly makes a lot of sense.

Finally,

Well, sure--  I wouldn't mind that.  I just hope my feedback hasn't soured you on writing Haruhi stuff. :\

I have a couple ideas still, but I always planned to go back to Ranma after finishing Before and After and writing this piece.  After Identity, my ideas pile is only about four or five stories deep, and two of those are Haruhi.  It's just that Identity could take three or four years of working on it non-stop to finish...

But anyway, I am very thankful for all the help and ideas and discussion sparked here.  Were it not for that, this story would be very different and much worse for it.  Thank you all again.

[Muphrid]

Okay, I've cut down on the epilogue somewhat, making changes about the CTC problem and the lack of impact the Kyon as Tanigawa thing had.  Nine is only minimally changed, so if the alterations to the epilogue work, these should be pretty close to the final versions.  Thanks again, all.

[Arakawa]

Using a callback to the end of Melancholy resonates a lot better in my opinion. In general, with a bit less revelation and a few more questions kept open the epilogue feels to me a lot more like an epilogue.

We were in no hurry to reveal those truths, for the world would be just as spectacular all the same, and though we'd planned to see a movie later that day, we kept chatting at the café until well after dark.

Hmm... maybe "we just kept chatting"?

[Muphrid]

Done and done.

Complete pdf and an archive of html versions are in the main post now.