[Haruhi][Spoilers] The Insight of Haruhi Suzumiya

[sarsaparilla]

Kyon ruminates on how this is the day things started going awry but that, even if he'd been told what would happen, he probably wouldn't have believed it.  "Awry" is somewhat neutral, so it's hard to tell whether he thinks this was a bad or good thing or merely different.

Brian mentioned that Kyon's ominously foreboding remarks might have an unfavorable effect, especially since I have a tendency to wander off to darker recesses in some of my works. I'll do a 'tone check' on all such remarks, trying to convey the impression that the obstacles ahead are closer to the 'yare yare' variety than horrendous nightmares.

There's some discussion here about Kyon's sister and comparing her to Miyoko.  It's not apparent to me if this serves a greater purpose or is merely pacing, but it seems like a natural digression.

It's mostly fluff without any particular strings attached, to provide contrast to Kyon's earlier remarks. Also, I just tried to get as many canon characters as possible mentioned in the prologue.

Kyon arrives at school, noticing the bag Haruhi's carrying around with her, but he doesn't remark on it, only greeting her instead.  Somehow (and it's not clear to me how), he becomes aware that Haruhi is observing him.

It's a discreet suggestion that Kyon is rather observant, especially when it comes to Haruhi. There is another similar mention during the Ebessan scene, where Kyon tells that he could recognize Haruhi's footsteps before seeing her.

So there are several things to consider in this interaction:  why does Haruhi look at him so intently, and why does Kyon persist in ignoring it until Haruhi speaks?  For the former, Haruhi says that it's not about the bag but what day it is.  Taking her at face value or not seems to make little difference to the net effect; what's important is that she wants Kyon to remark on something.  Why Kyon ignores her, anticipating that she'll start the conversation instead, is somewhat more mysterious to me.  It's almost like he's testing her, trying to see if he has her pegged correctly.

This is the proper interpretation, Kyon is secretly happy to find out that Haruhi isn't quite as unpredictable as he himself always claims, because it means that Kyon has learned to understand Haruhi better.

On one level, this could be harmless, as it's not like Kyon has sinister intent here.  On another, it could feel manipulative for Kyon to ignore her and prompt her question when he knows very well that she expected something further from him.

And then on another hand (have we run out of those yet?), Haruhi acting like, "You should've noticed this," could be construed as a bit demanding.  That said, she asks him about it rather neutrally, and it's clear from her expression that though she may be anticipating something, she's not angry with him.  So I don't think there's anything wrong there.

Haruhi and Kyon have an exchange while Kyon seems to deliberately ignore what day it is, and Haruhi picks up that he's playing dumb.  Kyon notes that though Haruhi might try to look annoyed, it's clear she has a lot more on her mind.  This interaction gets to the very nature of whether tsundere is attractive or not.  Haruhi chides Kyon for "lack of effort," but since there's no real bite to this remark, Kyon seems to take it well, and I think it makes the interaction more cute than negative.  To me, it's like Haruhi is going through the motions of being annoyed with him, when by this point it's like they're playing a game, on both sides--after all, this doesn't happen if Kyon acknowledges what day it is, so I see it like they're both acting the roles they're used to playing, when really the dynamic has changed.

Yes, I tried to show Kyon being a bit more playful than usual, as a logical progression to his earlier decision to act on the Tanabata issue. I also tried to show that Haruhi doesn't really mind being teased this way, that they both realize what you said -- while on the surface they are acting their old roles there is something more going on behind the scenes.

Haruhi goes on espousing the benefits of leadership and enthusiasm and so forth.  Kyon becomes increasingly worried that what she has planned will be demanding on him.  I think Haruhi must be trying to pump Kyon up for what she has planned and is just...failing, miserably.  To me, this says that she doesn't have a good read on what does motivate him.  Nevertheless, it also seems odd that Kyon would be so quick to dread what Haruhi has in store when just the day before he noted that without Haruhi, thinks are boring.  There doesn't seem to be enough dissonance on his part, in my mind, to have both exist without at least some attempt from him to quiet his own doubts.

I tried to make a distinction between exciting and laborius, with Kyon liking the former but not the latter; however, when it comes to Haruhi's plans, the two often come hand in hand.

Haruhi wonders how one's priorities and what one looks forward to can change with time--in my mind, if realizing something has become less important to you means that you were wrong to consider it so important in the first place or if that just means what you've learned to pay attention to in the present might be objectively more important.  There's a feeling that Haruhi thought there should be an objective pecking order to things, that some things are absolutely more important than others and that it's the person who's wrong in assessing them if they think differently.  Or, there's a more personal question in play:  if Haruhi thinks new things are more important now, does that make her wrong before?

That is a very good take on it. I tried to show how Haruhi's thoughts are becoming more nuanced through interaction with other people.

Kyon thinks to himself that this is "exquisite."  I'd like to think this means he thinks it healthy for Haruhi to examine herself this way, rather than taking pleasure in her doubts.  The former seems much more likely.

Yes, Kyon sees it as a very positive development. I might have to rephrase the sentence to make it unambiguous.

Now, I think I remember that some of this scene had a more specific subtext:  that of seeking John Smith versus being happy with Kyon.  I think someone might guess that to be the case, but without it being made more explicit later on (e.g. in later chapters) no one would reasonably know this, I think.

Actually, Haruhi is not seeing those two things as mutually exclusive. She'd be happy to seek John Smith with Kyon's aid -- as she tries during the shrine scene -- but she's not even considering the option of dropping Kyon in favor of John Smith. This is not one of those fics. ^_^

The next paragraph, about being prisoner to habits and not seeing things without prejudices, I think I remember was Haruhi's veiled way of imploring Kyon to give her a fresh look.  As it is, the paragraph is still fairly abstract.  It does, on closer inspection, seem very different from what came before, but I don't know if I could reasonably guess that this is what Haruhi was trying to say.  Again, if this is made clear later in the story, then I don't think there's an issue.  As it is, Kyon takes this as true proof that Haruhi has grown and changed and goes on to justify that reasoning.

Again, I think that I can make it less abstract and more indicative of Haruhi's true intention without making it too obvious.

On this whole passage, there's the greater issue of Haruhi using a veiled philosophical conversation to try to examine her feelings and convince Kyon to enter a relationship with her.  On the one hand, it seems like the sort of thing any hesitant teenager might try to do, refusing to be direct due to anxiety and fear.  On the other hand, knowing that Kyon will be judged for his response on a question that he doesn't even know he's being asked is...awkward.  That he takes the question as seriously as he does and fails to come up with an answer actually seems like the best course all around.  It seems to put Haruhi at ease, and Kyon is no worse for wear for it.

The idea was that Haruhi was satisfied to see that Kyon gave her thoughts serious consideration instead of dismissing them with some cheap quip -- she didn't even expect any particular answer at that point, and Kyon did just fine as it was. Haruhi hoped that this conversation would have an effect on what she had planned for the evening.

At the end of school (I notice you gloss over classes rather smoothly), Haruhi and Kyon study English while Kyon worries over how to accompany Haruhi to the classroom.  Kyon doesn't elaborate on why Haruhi going to club first would spoil anything.  It seems he must want to see Haruhi's reaction, or at least to be present when she sees what he's done in some way.

Kyon's fear was that if Haruhi went on her way before he could stop her, Haruhi would go and steal another bamboo for the meeting, as she had done the previous year, and that would spoil the intended surprise.

Luckily, Haruhi needs him to carry the sports bag, so they go together, and at club, they discover the object, revealed to be a bamboo plant.  Haruhi goes through all the other brigade members first and doesn't even bother asking Kyon, who has a nonsense remark to offer.  He mentions that his "long and arduous training" wouldn't be in vain if it devolved into a staring contest.  Knowing that there's a lot of "I know you know I know" supposedly going on here, I think I see that this line was meant to indicate that, but it's a bit buried and seems easily missed.

In turn, Haruhi looks Kyon directly in the eyes while saying it must mean they're receiving recognition.  Again, I see the hint, but I can also see how it could be easily missed.

This is something that I'm actually rather content with. The scene will be reinforced in chapter 3 where Haruhi mentions having met Tsuruya and asks why Kyon didn't tell her about him meeting her as well. For a while Kyon thinks that Haruhi is talking about the bamboo, and the discussion is kept intentionally vague until it becomes obvious that Haruhi's talking about the summer trip instead. However, the discussion will still hint at Haruhi knowing about the bamboo as well, and wanting Kyon to know that she knows, without actually saying it.

They go through the wishes.  Haruhi accosts Kyon for his wishes from before.  Implicitly, I don't take any possible negative overtones from that exchange too seriously.

Actually, I tried to convey that Haruhi indirectly admits that she has fared just as poorly as Kyon when it comes to last year's wishes; while it annoys her to realize it and she cannot say it explicitly, she doesn't try to shift the blame on Kyon either.

So we head to the festival, and I think this is the real crux of the matter.  Fairly quickly, Haruhi asks Kyon to buy kaiten-yaki for her.  When Kyon says he doesn't remember having any penalties leveled against him, she says,

"Does it always have to be a penalty? I was just giving you an opportunity to earn some sorely needed points through supporting your brigade leader, so that she isn't too hungry to fulfill her responsibilities. But if you insist, then maybe I can think of something you've neglected."

I think the underlined is the key part, revealing Haruhi's intentions.  The rest of it depends on how one reads Haruhi's feelings, I think.  If one reads her facetiously, as I think I originally did, then it feels like she's playing the role of overbearing brigade leader instead of actually being it.  If one reads her seriously, then I think the rest of the paragraph costs some of the audience's favor for her.  With Kyon as the narrator, no one wants to see him get pushed around by someone he ostensibly is interested in and cares for.

As was discussed before, this is one of Haruhi's tests where she tries to find out exactly where the balance between her and Kyon is at the moment. Essentially, she's saying: "Wouldn't you buy me a treat if you like me?" Kyon recognizes this, and considers his options for a while before choosing the one that allows him to evade a direct answer.

Kyon: "Sure, I like you...."
Haruhi: "Yay!"
Kyon: "...all. Never mind Koizumi, though."
Haruhi: "Rats!"

I don't want Haruhi to sound too pushy, and if it comes through as such I can certainly rephrase it.

Haruhi mentions that they should go to Hawaii and dress up Asahina, stimulating some thoughts of a particular nature in Kyon.  Haruhi picks up on his grin, but notably, she doesn't accost him for it.  Perhaps Haruhi is encouraged that Kyon can have such thoughts, but regardless of the reason, I think it's positive that she doesn't get on his case about it.

In the last chapter I tried to establish that Kyon has grown past his adolescent crush with Asahina; here I try to establish that Haruhi also understands the situation and has grown past her jealousy. She knows that Kyon finds Asahina attractive but doesn't consider it a threat to their relationship any more.

Kyon will have one last temptation with the Mikuru folder in chapter 4 when he has to time travel to the club room in last March, but he doesn't fall for it, and has an unrelated discussion with Asahina instead.

"As you can see, I'll keep it just in case I should suddenly find a need for a half-eaten cake -- and if I won't, it may eventually become a coveted piece of memorabilia bearing the bite marks of the famous leader of the SOS Brigade! What do you know, it looks like a win-win situation for me."

To me, it's not surprising that Haruhi calls him stupid after that.  Just what is Kyon trying to accomplish with such a remark?  Is he overcompensating, trying to downplay the significance of the act too much?  It's hard for me to imagine saying that line in a way that's not mocking, even if only in the gentlest way.

Noting that the cake has bite marks, the significance if Kyon had eaten it is clear enough.

During the lunch Haruhi pinched a prune from Kyon's bento, and here she's wondering whether Kyon's willing to reciprocate. This is Haruhi's last attempt at testing Kyon, and he acts in a way that makes it clear that he sees through Haruhi's intention and refuses to take either option that she's offering. Haruhi realizes that she's been bested when it comes to this particular game, and won't try again.

Is Kyon's answer too condescending? It is meant to have a mild reproach in it, as Kyon is not too happy to be Haruhi's test subject in this particular issue.

Eventually, Kyon is led away by the unknown person.  Knowing this to be Yasumi, we can see that this is Haruhi's intention as well, but it's puzzling for Kyon to say that he has questions for this person.  Knowing she's an aspect of Haruhi's mind, what questions can he really ask her?  That said, I'm sure it would make sense once those questions are revealed.

Kyon will have many opportunities to talk with Yasumi during the story.

Does he want an unusual life or doesn't he?  Or can he at least recognize the apparent contradiction and claim that his wants are complicated?

That is a good point, and yes, it's a bit complicated. He wants excitement and stability at the same time, and those aren't always compatible with each other.

I would've even helped her with the lanterns now, but I knew already that nothing good would come out of that -- it was completely pointless!

What does he mean by that?  It may be pointless to help her with the lanterns, but what else is he going to do?  She's asking his help, and he's going to say no?  That's actually not a bad response given how overwhelmed he is, and he does say that he thinks something else is going on.  I guess it's just surprising to me that Kyon would be so literal here, even willfully so, when to anyone else, there would be clear meaning in helping her even if the message she intends to send has already been sent.

Kyon fears that by helping Haruhi with the lanterns he will only get her hopes up and make the inevitable disappointment worse, as he knows that Haruhi can't get the answer she's looking for. He is worried about Haruhi (and him) getting into trouble over the rearrangement -- over nothing as he sees it, since he also knows that the lanterns won't help with the issue. He is also emotionally shaken by the situation.

He is in an impossible situation, and -- as he thinks -- cannot do anything without making the situation worse, so he doesn't do anything.

What he doesn't know is that Haruhi's plan extends past the rearrangement. What she doesn't know is why Kyon is this stubborn when she had expected only a modicum of resistance from him.

Overall, I think the big thing that's missing for me is that Kyon is ostensibly happy about having a life slightly more interesting than typical, but when push comes to shove, he chooses ordinary and status quo every time.  Granted, I don't think that's out of character, but I find it strange that at this time, thinking more positively of Haruhi, he doesn't recognize any conflict there.

Do you think that the reasons I gave above are insufficient for Kyon's inactivity? The problem is, had Kyon chosen otherwise there woudn't have been a story to tell.

When the time comes, Haruhi is sincere about wanting Kyon's help, but she doesn't say why---really why him and not anyone else---and so she's still protecting herself from disappointment.

Yes, that's Haruhi's mistake in the situation.

In addition, despite the problems it gives him here, Kyon doesn't reconsider whether to tell Haruhi about John Smith.  It's probably too early to do so, but that means I expect the matter to weigh on his mind.  That's something for the next chapter, I suppose.

Indeed.

When I undertook this rereading, I hoped help find some collective understanding---to at once assuage some misgivings that have been expressed about the piece as it is extant and the future of it and also to better understand them and improve myself as a critic and a writer.  As it is, I think I've still failed to bridge the gap I was hoping to traverse.  It may be I'm fundamentally incapable of doing so.

At any rate, I do wish you luck in continuing this story.  Ultimately, I think Haruhi's renewed determination and Kyon's continued thoughts on what it means to keep Haruhi in the dark must form the starting point for the next chapter--if that much is any inspiration to help drive the creative engine.

You've done a much more thorough job than I could hope to see, and it has indeed helped me a lot. Several pieces that were hanging or poorly defined have found their place and I have a much better vision on how to proceed with certain aspects of the story. Thank you very much for the effort!

[Muphrid]

Actually, Haruhi is not seeing those two things as mutually exclusive. She'd be happy to seek John Smith with Kyon's aid -- as she tries during the shrine scene -- but she's not even considering the option of dropping Kyon in favor of John Smith. This is not one of those fics. ^_^

It was silly of me to suggest they were mutually exclusive.

Kyon's fear was that if Haruhi went on her way before he could stop her, Haruhi would go and steal another bamboo for the meeting, as she had done the previous year, and that would spoil the intended surprise.

Ah, I see now.  And to keep the surprise under wraps, Kyon's fear here can't really be described.  Since we can guess Kyon is fearful his surprise will be ruined, the exact reason (which can't be divined unless the reader knows it's a bamboo, which they could guess) isn't too material.  The conclusion is the same regardless, so I think this is all right.

As was discussed before, this is one of Haruhi's tests where she tries to find out exactly where the balance between her and Kyon is at the moment. Essentially, she's saying: "Wouldn't you buy me a treat if you like me?" Kyon recognizes this, and considers his options for a while before choosing the one that allows him to evade a direct answer.

Kyon: "Sure, I like you...."
Haruhi: "Yay!"
Kyon: "...all. Never mind Koizumi, though."
Haruhi: "Rats!"

I don't want Haruhi to sound too pushy, and if it comes through as such I can certainly rephrase it.

I think what happened is I misunderstood all along what game was being played.  That Haruhi is deliberately testing Kyon is something I did pick up on, and that Kyon knows she's testing him isn't too surprising, either.  Now that I know that this is what we're talking about, I see what you must mean.  Because Kyon catches and defuses each of these ploys, he maintains control of the situation, at least to an extent, and for my part, I think that's a good thing.  It is good that Kyon won't show real affection in response to an action meant to test him.  A couple already in a relationship can play the game Haruhi is playing, and that's one thing, but they're not in a relationship (yet), so here, I like that Kyon doesn't bite at the fishing hook, so to speak.  And Haruhi wising up and confessing something genuine, even if she doesn't fully expose herself, in my mind shows that she's learned something, that such ploys won't work on him.

It's not the same as learning not to make such ploys in the first place, but I'm not going to say the games an infatuated teenager plays amount to any heinous, immoral action either.

During the lunch Haruhi pinched a prune from Kyon's bento, and here she's wondering whether Kyon's willing to reciprocate. This is Haruhi's last attempt at testing Kyon, and he acts in a way that makes it clear that he sees through Haruhi's intention and refuses to take either option that she's offering. Haruhi realizes that she's been bested when it comes to this particular game, and won't try again.

Is Kyon's answer too condescending? It is meant to have a mild reproach in it, as Kyon is not too happy to be Haruhi's test subject in this particular issue.

Interesting.  I didn't realize how Haruhi intended the incidents to mirror each other.

I think how Kyon comes across in that scene can be tweaked with something subtle.  Without some clarification on his feelings or body language while he's saying this, it could be open to whatever tone and inclination the reader wants to put into Kyon's mouth.  When I read it this last time, I read it like he was mocking her, yet on closer inspection, I see that this isn't necessarily the case, and in my eagerness to puzzle out what was in Kyon's mind, I put something in that wasn't explicitly there.

I think body language or some internal statement of his feelings at this point (masked as it may be to keep the back and forth game from being made explicit) would be the best way to keep the words intact but fine tune the meaning delivered.

Kyon fears that by helping Haruhi with the lanterns he will only get her hopes up and make the inevitable disappointment worse, as he knows that Haruhi can't get the answer she's looking for. He is worried about Haruhi (and him) getting into trouble over the rearrangement -- over nothing as he sees it, since he also knows that the lanterns won't help with the issue. He is also emotionally shaken by the situation.

He is in an impossible situation, and -- as he thinks -- cannot do anything without making the situation worse, so he doesn't do anything.

What he doesn't know is that Haruhi's plan extends past the rearrangement. What she doesn't know is why Kyon is this stubborn when she had expected only a modicum of resistance from him.

I see now.  I think I made a big point of this because, while I immediately agreed understood how Kyon could see it pointless, this is also all the explanation he gives for not helping her anyway.  I think if how you explained it here could be integrated into the text (without breaking too much Kyon's need to filter his own feelings from the reader), it would make his motives for dismissing the idea of helping her anyway a lot clearer and more sympathetic.  As it is written, to me I get the idea he's saying it's pointless from a literal and logical point of view (i.e., it's pointless only because he knows John Smith has already heard her) rather than for the harm that would be done to Haruhi by getting her hopes up for nothing.

I tried to make a distinction between exciting and laborius, with Kyon liking the former but not the latter; however, when it comes to Haruhi's plans, the two often come hand in hand.

[...]

Do you think that the reasons I gave above are insufficient for Kyon's inactivity? The problem is, had Kyon chosen otherwise there woudn't have been a story to tell.

No, I think they're sufficient, but are the ways he avoids that cognitive dissonance adequately explored in the text?  Do they need to be for the reader not to wonder how he can enjoy Haruhi's attitude on level and fear what it can entail on another?  I think those are the questions I meant to ask.

And I think there's a good bit of leeway for needing stuff to happen for the story to even occur when the story's in the early stages, but maybe that's just me.

You've done a much more thorough job than I could hope to see, and it has indeed helped me a lot. Several pieces that were hanging or poorly defined have found their place and I have a much better vision on how to proceed with certain aspects of the story. Thank you very much for the effort!

I'm glad to hear it.  All the best.

[Brian]

Brian mentioned that Kyon's ominously foreboding remarks might have an unfavorable effect, especially since I have a tendency to wander off to darker recesses in some of my works. I'll do a 'tone check' on all such remarks, trying to convey the impression that the obstacles ahead are closer to the 'yare yare' variety than horrendous nightmares.

Actually ... I think I'm not being a constructive influence.  After thinking about it a bit--  You should just ignore everything I said, probably.  You have a solid image of what you want to write, and I think I'm only distracting you from that.

Sorry about all the trouble. -_-