[Haruhi][Spoilers] The Insight of Haruhi Suzumiya

[Muphrid]

I think that phenomenon is precisely why text on the internet tends to be set off with blank lines.  On a screen, it gets very wall-of-texty.  As a book in hand, well, every book I've ever read is like that excerpt (and, honestly, the Brown translations use fairly large font, which ought to make it more readable on a screen as well).

I've never used sed specifically, but I think the foundation of sed is the use of regular expressions, which is basically what I use to convert between formats.  The basic idea of a regular expression is pretty simple:  you want to find something in the text and replace it with something else.  I think the majority of its complicated syntax is do so really sophisticated substitutions.  For instance, I have a line in my perl script that looks like this:

Code Select Expand

$str =~ s|^([^<\\].+)\n$|<p>$1</p>\n|g;

So $str would be a line in the file, =~ means to modify it based on the regex.  I use | as the delimiter because otherwise all the slashes tend to run together.  s for substitute.  The first ^ means find the beginning of the line.  The () set off what I want stored as the variable $1.  The [] mean a specific character, the ^ inside them means any character that's not what follows, so not a < or a \ (which is escaped with \\).  The dot means any character, and the + means 1 or more times.  So what this does is find any line that doesn't already begin with a \ or a < (as you would have in, say, a <br/> tag) and wrap it in <p> tags.  It's something I use after I've already taken care to strip out any other LaTeX commands and replace them with proper HTML entities, particularly <hr/> or <br/> for a simple break.

But that's a self-made solution.  Brian seems to have pretty good results with Markdown.  Perhaps he could speak to how that works?

[Brian]

A perfect description of the markdown customization that Jon made for Brian.

You ... very likely could create such a thing.  I don't know that you'd need to, though, since it's already been done. :p

I have only a few minutes here before I run to work, so to make this somewhat brief:

http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/

This is markdown, which is the basic utility.  It converts raw text into .html; that whole page is written in markdown (though, it also uses .css, so it takes a little bit of doing to have it output stuff that complex).

Here's a rundown of the syntax:

http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax

And here's a little java tool you can paste something you type out into to try it out for yourself without the hassle of installing:

http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/dingus

Jon's customizations allow me to use an additional entity within markdown, which is {styletag}, followed by {/styletag}.  Those get replaced with <div class="styletag"> and </div> respectively.  They also preserve whitespace by replacing indentation (spaces) with ... er ... indentation.  >_>;;  At any rate -- the body of the story uses the main stylesheet, and then I can use custom classes for inset texts in different styles -- those actually live here: http://pishoque.net/brian/stories.css (you can see the 'epigraph' style tag, for example, which separates text out by slightly different rules, demonstrated at the top of every page of K:BDH, or the 'haiku' style tag in any chapter of Later)).

I don't know that this is the best solution, but it's one that's worked quite well for me. :)

[sarsaparilla]

http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/

This is markdown, which is the basic utility.  It converts raw text into .html; that whole page is written in markdown (though, it also uses .css, so it takes a little bit of doing to have it output stuff that complex).

Mm-hmm. It still looks mostly like something that converts from one standard typography into another, custom defined typography. I was thinking about something that doesn't by default use any typography, with element ordering the only important thing, and then tags that tell what kind of elements they are, not as in layout but as in meaning. So, it would look something like:

(default=kyon)
(tell; actor=haruhi)Haruhi waved the document describing the new syntax like a tribune ready to decree the new law of the land.
(talk:haruhi)This is the best thing since the invention of water, because it's made by me!
(talk:koizumi)One couldn't expect less from our illustrious leader.
(think)Oh no, don't encourage her!
(talk)Besides, water was discovered, not invented. Wait, never mind, that doesn't help the issue in any way.

Might be hard to define a syntax that is flexible enough for all possible uses, though. Oh well, must make a mental note and see whether something eventually pops up.

[Muphrid]

Sounds like something that could be done in xml?  But I do wonder how much one can abstract out the elements of the story and separate them from, say, quotation marks and formatting without getting something that doesn't look like written language at all or relies on automation where the human element is needed.  The system would have to accommodate the detail that you want.

For instance, I said before I use LaTeX.  LaTeX documents have an existing syntax and commands and stuff, and generally you would use it with them with the LaTeX program to typeset the document according to commands.  LaTeX is flexible, though, and you can define your own commands.  You can use the same content and typeset it in different ways.  For instance, I have The Coin separated into individual files per chapter, with a master document that includes those documents and typesets them as a pdf looking like that earlier Brown excerpt or, instead, as a double-spaced manuscript that I can print and proofread (which I do with each chapter as well).  So, LaTeX tries, I think, to achieve independence between presentation and content.  What makes it unsuitable for text and html is that it's not designed to do that.  It probably can be done because TeX in general is Turing complete and can in principle do anything any program can do.  The solution I've used, with perl scripts and the like, is just much easier to implement.

But, to get at your example, you could do something in LaTeX like define a command to do, like:

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\tell{Kyon}{Haruhi}{Haruhi waved the document describing the new syntax like a tribute ready to decree the new law of the land.}

And when you define the \tell command, you have it do with that information whatever you want.  Maybe, in the simplest form, it would wrap the line in quotes.  I think that's the basic idea of what you're saying.  Alas, LaTeX probably isn't what you're looking for since it the only formats it achieves real independence between input and output is with dvis and pdfs.

[Brian]

Mm-hmm. It still looks mostly like something that converts from one standard typography into another, custom defined typography. I was thinking about something that doesn't by default use any typography, with element ordering the only important thing, and then tags that tell what kind of elements they are, not as in layout but as in meaning. So, it would look something like:

(default=kyon)
(tell; actor=haruhi)Haruhi waved the document describing the new syntax like a tribune ready to decree the new law of the land.
(talk:haruhi)This is the best thing since the invention of water, because it's made by me!
(talk:koizumi)One couldn't expect less from our illustrious leader.
(think)Oh no, don't encourage her!
(talk)Besides, water was discovered, not invented. Wait, never mind, that doesn't help the issue in any way.

Might be hard to define a syntax that is flexible enough for all possible uses, though. Oh well, must make a mental note and see whether something eventually pops up.

Er, huh.  That's ... not what I had thought it was.  I think my solutions would take a substantial degree of cludging to do what you're looking at.  Actually ... I can't say I really like how mechanically such tags render the text.  Part of what I like about Markdown is that it's unobtrusive enough to be read in plaintext as well as the .htm output.

Edit: Really, actually, hearkens back to simple script format.  More on this at the footer, since this edit is likely to be overlooked.

It's even more pronounced when I load the full novel and skim back and forth through it - dialogue is tightly packed onto the screen, so the absence of frequent observations by the narrator isn't particularly noticeable, and a blank line becomes a pretty drastic way of indicating a major break in the action. In comparison, the translation I have sometimes starts to feel like it's sleepwalking a little.

Backing up what Muphrid touched on with this one a bit:

Part of this is the conversion from pages to digital documents.  Pages cost money because they're physical objects, so the text is more dense because it's cheaper (and the original scans don't bother to change this because a scan is simpler than a scan + an edit).  Translators didn't have the same limitations, since they were paying in electrical charges on silicon instead of processed wood pulp, and they were going to be going through the entire text one line at a time anyway.

Other than the odd moments Jon feels compelled to run out and publish an anthology of my writing, I (personally) aim to publish only online -- so physical page space just isn't an issue.  At 80% column width, I can waste 20% of the page, and it doesn't cost a penny more than using 100%.

This somewhat models the shift in proper journalistic style as one moves from newsprint to online blogging--  A parallel examination of the issue by ... Scott McCloud regarding the shift in comics from 'filling the paper' to 'using webspace as desired' -- is out there, but I wasn't able to find it online.

Hmm... mandatory physics.. pretty advanced policy. 40% for wrong dimensions is about right if somehow the quantity of the answer is still correct, but unless it's obviously just a typo at the end , it generally indicates a failure to understand exactly what you're measuring, and would probably result in even more marks taken off.

I've never taken a class on physics outside of high-school.  Wiki don't fail me now. >_>;;

I interpet Kuyou (the character I play on IRC) as per K:BDH; a benign presence that's just incredibly alien, not generically unfathomable evil out to kill Haruhi.

Just noticed this one.

Actually, it is -- at least in principle -- possible to argue that canon!Kuyou has a case of extreme blue and orange morality. Specifically, she doesn't seem to get (among other things) the concept of individuality. Add to that the fact that data beings don't seem to share the view on death with humans either, so from her point of view what Fujiwara asked her to do might not differ from a situation where a human is asked to pour a quart of water to the pot while cooking. It's hard to say which way Kuyou will go in the canon but I'd be rather disappointed to see her turned into a simple 'evil' character. Asakura is similarly ... disruptive, and ax-crazy on top of that, and there's still a lot of mileage to get from that character.

Likewise; I would like to see more of her develop as a character.  I suppose at this point, that (and almost anything to do with Sasaki) are the most interesting angles left for the novels to pursue....

I must say that the discussion is already at this point delving deeper into the finer points of writing than I had hoped to ever reach. It's a very good thing, and as I'm perhaps more interested in staying consistent through the story than in hitting some particular target of 'correctness' (well, I do try to use correct language as well, but the issue looks a bit fuzzy to me), I'm willing to revise these first chapters as many times as needed until they are within acceptable bounds for everybody, and then try to carry that particular style to the future chapters.

I'm pretty sure I've always maintained that consistency trumps accuracy (it really does), so I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.  ^_^;

Basically, the fundamental issue seems to be: is it possible to separate the original author's personal style, overall Japanese (light novel) style, and any artifacts introduced in the translation process from each other, in order to achieve as accurate an imitation as possible, or if the answer is negative, which style would manage to capture the original intent? I have been aware of the question but I never thought that I'd get to a level where it becomes a major obstacle.

I believe the bottom line on this one is that a translation is always going to be a translation -- not the original.  It will undoubtedly be possible to come close (very much a 'milage varies'issue, on this one), but there's always going to be a question of when things are 'close enough' while still being readable, and then (another one!) what becomes acceptible in the process.

The two extremes are: something that's perfectly readable in a new language, and shifts things to map very well to local culture, which risks losing some of the unique original cultural twists (to a degree, A Baroque Tale was an attempt to do that same thing with Ranma 1/2, and then deconstruct it immediately after).  The alternative is something that ends up reading like a technical document, completely full of foreign words and interactions, each of which is accompanied by a map of footnotes and explanatory links (Sky and Shore is the closest I've ever gotten to that).

One brings the reader into the new setting, one brings the new setting to the reader; there's probably seldom a perfect balance.  Instead, we reach for compromises, like using the foreign word and bringing the explanation into the narrative as subtly as possible.

On the baseball field, instead of the match, Kyon uses some time to watch other students around the field, then suddenly decides that he isn't interested in the game any more, and goes back to the class. His first comment to Haruhi when he gets there? "Didn't see you around."

I thought that was cute; that's why it bothered me initially that it didn't look like Haruhi reciprocated.

The base units of the SI system are various appendages. Meter is an arm, second is a leg and kilogram is a head (not mentioned in the passage but ampere would be a wing and kelvin a tentacle :p). Derived units are creatures made out of these basic building blocks, put above if multiplied and below if divided. There was some computer game where you could make arbitrary creatures out of such body parts, I think.

Because Haruhi likes energy, she equates it with the human shape. The unit of energy is kg m² / s² which in Haruhi-speak turns to "one head and two arms above, two legs below -- that's a human". The problem that Haruhi is using as the example gives mass and height (and implies gravitational acceleration) and asks for potential energy to be solved. Since the units must match on both sides of the equation, the problem turns into a task of making a 'human' shape out of the given parts that are arm-above-two-legs-below (acceleration), arm-above (height) and head-above (mass). The correct answer is just to put them together as they are, and thus the formula for potential energy is E = m g h You don't have to remember the formula because there's only one possible combination of mass, acceleration and height that has the same unit as energy, so it must the correct one.

To be quite honest, that is more or less the way I avoided learning anything in high school physics classes, though back then I wasn't aware that others didn't see things the way I did. I was just mystified why the teacher would want to waste hours on end trying to get us remember some arbitrary formulas through rote memorization and goofy mnemonics. >_>

...wow.  I had to wiki that, as those aren't things I've heard of/learned about before.  Hmm.  I feel I've gotten rather a lot of insight into how Kyon must feel when Haruhi explains things to him, now. @_@


Edit: I was reminded of script format, when I took a second glance at that proposed syntax:

Kyon: "Old tricks are the best tricks."
Haruhi: *eyeing Kyon doubtfully*  "So, why is it that script format is specifically banned on ff.net, then?  And doesn't the community look down on it for some reason?"
Nagato: "That is because script fanfiction was popular in the early days of fanfiction, when beginning authors often held onto the belief that their works might some day be adapted by their franchises, especially in some of the first communities and groups to write fanfiction:  Star Trek fans, circulating their stories through their fanzines and in real-print format at conventions.
Mikuru: "A...are you a Trekkie, Nagato-san?"
Koizumi: "I note that Nagato isn't performing her action as 'deadpan', and Mikuru wasn't as 'charmingly bewildered'.
Kyon: "Yours isn't 'condescending', either; those are inferred by default."
Nagato: *continuing at though uninterrupted* "Many earlier fanfiction for anime also used script format to try and capture the feel of the show.  The author of this specific bit has something of an aversion to script format because on the FFML specifically, 'script format' was considered something only done in the early days of the list, before the membership grasped at the base of the literary monolith that was--
Haruhi: *nodding; blasts 'Also sprach Zarathustra' on a nearby sound system, prompting Mikuru to jump and hide behind Kyon*
Nagato: *unperturbed* "proper grammar and punctuation.  From there, the list populace (and fandom in general), shifted away from script format, labeling it as too limited and generally 'not as good' as prose."
Haruhi: "Speaking of author bias, though...." *pauses to turn off sound system*  "What's with _even more_ picking on Koizumi?"
Kyon: *evasive* "I ... have no idea what you're--  Look!  It's a convenient change of subject!"
Munemoto Hiromasu: *falls through the ceiling, crashes to the floor; pained* "...ow."

Of course, doing it properly, all character names would be in all-caps, and stage directions should be more concise, etc.

[Muphrid]

I just realized that I missed the part where amps are wings and kelvins are tentacles.  So an electric field would be a kg m/s^3/A = a head, an arm, three legs and a wing underneath.  Oh man.  This is blowing my mind.

[sarsaparilla]

Prologue II, this version deprecated and removed.

After a lot of dithering I've finally gotten the second half of the prologue done. This part completes the prologue, which is now a self-contained short story that can be read without worrying about the main story -- I even gave it a separate name.

This (half-)chapter is a thematically complex piece of work; there are more layers of meaning, interdependencies and moving parts than in all of my largest work to date (Shadow). The details of the arrangement are starting to slip even from my own grasp.

As I have set some very specific goals for this part, I would be very grateful to hear about any thoughts that it evokes past purely technical aspects.

[Jon]

On the subject of text formatting (I am a bit of an otaku* on that):

My philosophy is simple: you should pick a format in which to write which makes sense to you, provided either (a) people don't mind reading that format or (b) you can provide simple, unambiguous rules for transforming it into other formats which people don't mind reading.

Markdown meets both (a) and (b). Bricode (the extension Brian was talking about) doesn't do quite as well at (a), because the {haiku}{/haiku} is a bit weird, but it's still pretty good. But even so, all you need is (b), assuming you're willing to run a conversion script.

Based on the sample you've offered so far, I'm not sure your proposed formatting meets (b), but it intrigues me nonetheless. If you want to pursue this, let me know. (Feel free to start a new thread or PM me; it doesn't really belong on this thread, and as I'm not reading this fic**, I'm not sure what I'm doing on this thread either.)


* Using otaku in the more widespread Japanese usage, in which Kensuke Aida is a military-otaku, for instance. A text-formatting otaku's obsessions extend to things like font selection, kerning, and footnotes.***
** No aspersion on your fic intended; I don't read Haruhi fics in this community as a general rule, because I haven't done the prerequisite reading.
*** Did I mention the footnotes?

[Muphrid]

Arriving at the class room, I noticed that Haruhi had again been faster than me. She was looking out of the window as usual, but unlike yesterday there was a large sports bag under her desk. There wouldn't be PE today, so it had to be something else.

"classroom", I think.

Thus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me but I was pretty certain that I recognized her. I hadn't seen her since last April, so what was she doing here now? I looked around but couldn't see the other brigade members nearby; after a moment of hesitation I decided to pursue the unexpected person, as her presence bothered me more than anything else that I had seen today. There were certain questions I wanted to ask from her.

I think just "ask her".

Thus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me but I was pretty certain that I recognized her. I hadn't seen her since last April, so what was she doing here now? I looked around but couldn't see the other brigade members nearby; after a moment of hesitation I decided to pursue the unexpected person, as her presence bothered me more than anything else that I had seen today. There were certain questions I wanted to ask from her.

"last" April suggests April first year?  Or is redundant if it's April second year?

"You're supposed to support your brigade commander when she needs help!"

This seems somewhat inconsistent with the use of "brigade chief" earlier.

We took a local train back to Kouyouen and retrieved our school bags from the storage locker. That reminded me &mdash; had I carried this heavy bag the whole evening for no reason whatsoever?

It seems slightly more typical to say "the train" instead of "a train" for some reason.


I had quite a bit more typed out, but I had it in an unwritten file that I lost on the way home.  In general, I like the levels of subtext in your writing.  It makes the piece very engaging.  That, to me, is the important part--give the piece depth and unanswered questions, and it'll hold on an intellectual level.  All along, we see Haruhi trying to get Kyon's attention in various ways.  The festival passage is very good, as the level of detail makes it feel like you're there in the summer, on Tanabata night.  Kyon dodges looking in Haruhi's eyes too much, lest he be entranced with the brilliance he sees within them.  All very good stuff.

The prologue as a whole feels very Tanigawa-esque--it doesn't feel the need to come to a clear, unambiguous conclusion because it's not complete by itself (which, I think, is something I'm not so good at doing).  I did feel that the abundance of Japanese might've been a bit high around the part with the fortunes, but not glaringly so.  I liked all of Haruhi and Kyon's conversations, and Kyon's panic when Haruhi started talking about John Smith was well done.  Nevertheless, I must wonder--is Haruhi's real wish to thank John Smith or to, say, involve Kyon with that and make him part of a secret, part of something she holds close to her heart?  Maybe it's both.


On the mechanical side of things, something I notice is that where you use "everybody" exclusively, I use "everyone" exclusively.  I have no idea why, in either direction.  In addition, you have a tendency to neglect the comma needed for compound sentences.  Example:

I stopped on the bridge to appreciate the unexpected sight and stood there in momentary contemplation when I heard somebody approaching from the direction of the shrines, running. The person soon came in clear view and I realized that I had subconsciously recognized her just by the sound of her steps. Come to think about it, who else would run around at a place like this?

Pedantically, it should be "clear view, and..." and so on.  Now, there's leeway to ignore that comma for pacing, and I certainly would understand that, but it does seem like this comma is neglected quite a lot.

[sarsaparilla]

I did feel that the abundance of Japanese might've been a bit high around the part with the fortunes, but not glaringly so.

I noticed that myself, but had a hard time trying to find any English equivalents that were close enough. I may have to sacrifice some accuracy for readability in the final version.

Nevertheless, I must wonder--is Haruhi's real wish to thank John Smith or to, say, involve Kyon with that and make him part of a secret, part of something she holds close to her heart?  Maybe it's both.

I'm really happy to hear you say that.

Spoiler: ShowHide

You managed to home in on the main point of the whole episode. While Haruhi's intent to thank John Smith is genuine, it is just an excuse for her real plan that we never get to see because of what happens. There are four hints to the effect: the sports bag, Haruhi saying that thanking John Smith is her 25-year wish (fridge logic then suggests that the other, 16-year wish is even more important to her), Kyon remarking that something else is going on, and finally Haruhi's empty tanzaku under Kyon's pillow.

Portraying this the right way was a somewhat narrow tightrope to walk; on one hand I couldn't make it too obvious, and on the other I absolutely wanted to avoid the interpretation "Haruhi is only interested in John Smith and sees Kyon as nothing more than a means to find him."

As always, thanks for the feedback; I'll work the grammar issues into the next version.

Edit: Concerning the master format / formatting issues, I looked at XML, and if I got it right it could indeed be used in the manner I was thinking of, essentially adding a layer of meta-information on top of the material. However, as Jon pointed out, the conversion between that and a human-readable version of the text is not necessarily well defined, as there are issues that ultimately depend on the judgement of the author. This makes value of the whole exercise questionable.

I think that I'll keep writing in quasi-HTML for now, as it seems to be the path of least resistance. The manual replacements needed to convert from that to the final format are '...' to hellip, '--' to mdash and two successive line breaks to an end-paragraph/begin-paragraph pair, a rather simple task.

[Brian]

As I have set some very specific goals for this part, I would be very grateful to hear about any thoughts that it evokes past purely technical aspects.

Well--  I'll give it my best shot; I hope my comments are helpful, and I don't repeat Muphrid's comments, or Arakawa's (which I expect he will complete before I finish mine):

Spoiler: ShowHide

When looking at the events of this summer with hindsight and trying to pick a definite moment when things started to go awry I might be inclined to choose this day; of course, I couldn't see that by the time. Perhaps more than anything else my shortsightedness was caused by the fact that the threat to the recently achieved and much cherished balance came from a direction I could never have foreseen — but then again, based on the way in which everything eventually unraveled I must assume that neither could anybody else.

On a personal note, I don't at all like the 'and now I foreshadow how things are going to turn out from this point' comment--  Not a complaint about your writing, it's just something I don't care for in stories in general.  It's also something Tanigawa actually does in Disappearance.  The only reason I even bother bringing it up here is because it somewhat strains the idea of this piece standing alone, since it's obviously intended to serve as a hook for the rest of the work.

Just my opinion, which is worth very little; as always, disregard every comment that is not useful to you.

Indeed, it's quite probable that I wouldn't have believed it even if I had received a written statement from my future self, personally delivered by a certain adorable time traveler, so in the end it didn't really matter either way. All things considering, I should be able to say with sincerity that I did my best.

If it ... doesn't matter, why did he bring it up? O_o?

Well--  My personal gripes aside; I would suggest using a Kyoniism here and have him liken it to something vague or obscure.

My little sister rushed into the room in her pajamas and caught Shamisen from the bed before it had an opportunity to slip away. I rubbed my eyes and picked up the alarm clock, noticing that because of this unsolicited intrusion I had just missed ten minutes of perfectly fine sleeping time.

it -- he -- the cat

(Shamisen is male ... unless we get into the technicalities of him being neutered; I'd expect Kyon to use 'he' in any case.)

The lively middle schooler ignored my reproach and hugged the struggling cat. "Shami, Shami, a big, droopy cat-pillow! Why can't I have him with me while I sleep?"

I'm actually pretty sure she's a year off from middle school--  Maybe two.  She was ten in melancholy, so should be eleven here -- and that should be only an elementary schooler, still (unless I'm missing something; entirely possible).  Middle school wouldn't start until she's at least twelve (depending on where in the calendar year her birthday falls).

More about that here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_education_in_Japan

As always, you can totally ignore this in favor of your own internal consistancy to the story.  And, naturally, you can likewise just ignore everything I say that you don't consider helpful.

I get the unfortunate impression that I'm too pushy with my comments, so remember -- they're only comments, and my generally misguided opinions. :x

"You toss and turn so much in your sleep that it would scare the cat away. Besides, he's not a pillow and you better not try to use him as one or you'll get scratches."

Okay, now Shami's a 'he'; that 'it' must have been a typo.

She took a couple of dance steps around the room until the fretfully protesting cat finally managed to escape from the smothering embrace and disappeared downstairs in a blur like a furry cruise missile. That didn't reduce my sister's overflowing vigor a bit.

the smothering -- her smothering

Alternately, expand on it and leave it at the as something hyperbolic like: 'The smothering embrace of childish doom', etc.

"Good for you. If you're feeling so brisk then why don't you go feed the cat and let me wake up at my own pace?"

You know, I've never seen the word 'brisk' applied to a person?  Only behaviors and objects.  I can't find anything wrong with it, I've just never seen it before.  Peculiar.

It was really hard to believe that my sister and Miyoko were at the same class. Miyoko had always been polite and mindful, behaving like somebody much older than her actual age, and especially during this last year it had become rather evident that her body was also catching up in maturity. My sister, then, was in all respects the polar opposite. If I hadn't known better I might have thought that she was still in elementary school, especially when it came to her behavior. Despite their differences the two got along very well, and I could only hope that eventually some of Miyoko's admirable qualities would rub off on my sister as well.

at the same class -- in the same class -- in the same year (?)

My comments about middle/elementary school also apply here.

Arriving at the class room, I noticed that Haruhi had again been faster than me. She was looking out of the window as usual, but unlike yesterday there was a large sports bag under her desk. There wouldn't be PE today, so it had to be something else.

class room -- classroom

What is fun for Haruhi is all too often an experience somewhere between consternation and outright panic for everybody else, but I couldn't make an argument to the effect because at that moment Okabe-sensei arrived to start the homeroom session. As we stood up I could hear Haruhi muttering something behind my back; one of the words might have been 'killjoy', but I didn't pay much attention to it.

the effect -- that effect

Haruhi's being awfully sterotypically tsundere here; she's annoying to me.  *checks Muphrid's comments*

Guess it's just me--  Nevermind.  Probably fine.

"Say, Kyon, do you ever wonder why you do the things you do?"

Kyon: "I believe you told me not to question your orders before, so ... no?"

"And even then, if we just do whatever we've always done, then doesn't it mean that we're not really free, and are held prisoners by our own habits instead? Shouldn't we face each challenge as if we were seeing everything the very first time, without any prejudices? Isn't that the only way to be truly independent?"

If I understand this, Haruhi's argument is complaining that she doesn't like growing up, and wants to cling to her impulses without them ever changing.

Asahina-san, who had been setting up her tea brewing equipment, looked genuinely puzzled. "Um ... it was here when I arrived today, but not yesterday when we left, and I was the last one to leave because I had to change clothes...."

Which begs the question of how Kyon got in, come to think of it.  The clubroom is locked when they go home.

Easy solution is that Mikuru had the responsibility, since she was there last, and just forgot.  Or, if you prefer, was ordered to 'forget'.

Quite frankly, the situation had momentarily been too close for comfort, which almost made me regret my earlier decision. Maybe I hadn't thought it all the way through, but it still seemed to be my lucky day. Despite her keen sense of intuition and fearsome tenacity when it came to things she considered important, it was sometimes surprisingly easy to lead Haruhi's attention astray.

Wait, what?  Kyon's not immune to pride--  He'd take credit where it was due.  Now that the surprise is sprung (and barring the fact that Haruhi is evidently indifferent to 'someone' getting into her locked clubroom after hours (recall they had to go get the keys in melancholy, in the 'dream)) Kyon just....

Oh well.  I guess the implication is that Haruhi knows, and is playing dumb.  I don't like that I'm reading one story, and have to puzzle out another one underneath it; sometimes I like to read a story just to read a story.

That's just me, though.

"I am glad to say that my family has indeed been enjoying a period of peace and prosperity lately. On the other hand world peace doesn't seem to be any closer than a year ago."

Oh, I see where this is going.

So much for my lucky day. Oh boy!

"Oh boy" must be your translation of yare, yare--  It makes me think of Sam Becket and Quantum Leap.

...there's an idea for later.

My private reverie was interrupted as abruptly as it started when I noticed that Haruhi had stopped eating her cake and was staring me from under her eyebrows like a particularly unimpressed crocodile that had just raised its head above the water level in the otherwise serene lagoon of my tropical paradise. Can that girl read my mind?

I ... have to admit, I don't like this character.  So far, I've seen Kyon go out of his way to do nice things, then go further to not take credit, like he enjoys being a buttmonkey, or something.

And Haruhi leading Kyon on to think of Mikuru -- and then criticizing him for it seems to go directly against winter, when she wasn't upset at him considering her invitation to hug Mikuru with her.

You have a solid grasp of what you're doing, but I have a headache; I think I have to stop here.  That's fine; I'm not able to offer much good commentary anyway, and I'm confident you'll be able to write the story you're trying to without my help. :)

Just blame it on my Kyon-fanboyism and assorted other distractions.  Good luck; I know you're going to write an amazing story.

[sarsaparilla]

I ... have to admit, I don't like this character.

I think I have to stop here.  That's fine; I'm not able to offer much good commentary anyway, and I'm confident you'll be able to write the story you're trying to without my help.

Ouch.

Well, thanks for the above, in any case.

[Brian]

Sorry -- but be assured, the issues are all with me; I believe you're writing a fine story regardless.

[Muphrid]

Regarding tsundere-ishness, I did notice that Haruhi was rather covert about what she was doing for most of the chapter--really until she asks him to help rearrange the lanterns with her.  I felt that scene was a good payoff, but she does hide her intentions (as well as she can "hide" them) until then.  Without speaking for Brian, I can see an argument for more neutral or unambiguously positive interactions, the argument being that tsundere-ish tendencies shouldn't be overdone, for though I consider them part of Haruhi's characteristic behavior, they can't dominate her behavior at this point in time.  Now, on the other hand, given her anxiety over what she was planning, I can see an argument that she's trying to be coy and that's just how it comes out.  Perhaps the best canon example to compare against (and check her behavior in that respect) would be the Valentine's Day chocolates.

On the other hand, I read into the conversation about things Haruhi looked forward to that she feels differently about as fairly neutral-positive, as Haruhi was willing to look to Kyon for advice and consider the possibility, even if only to herself, that her own priorities had changed.

As far as Kyon goes, it didn't strike me as unusual that, say, he wouldn't take credit for the bamboo.  Kyon has pride, but he doesn't pander.  That said, I can see how not even taking credit for bringing the bamboo there might be seen as a bit too coy.  Dumping all the real credit on Tsuruya would seem to do the job, though it would require tweaking the Koizumi conversation later on.

[Brian]

That might be it, Muphrid.  I guess my inner-Kyon just didn't like the one-sided-ness where it felt like Haruhi was constantly coming down on him, and then the bamboo plant was a chance for him to stand up for himself--  And he was so beaten down by that point he didn't bother.  Telling him he wasn't penalized but was still ordered to pay for Haruhi later really hammered things down on that idea, followed by what felt like Haruhi fishing for something else to yell at Kyon about, as his spineless giving Haruhi her every demand and then some just wasn't good enough....

However--  This is probably just a sign that I lack the intelligence to enjoy the story properly, as I've commented before.  Obviously, more discerning readers evidently see a rich and enjoyable subtext, and not ... what I did.  I wouldn't take any of my complaints as even worth considering.

I'm realizing based on your presentation of Haruhi in The Coin, various other fics like The Dream of... and now Sarsaparilla's here--  It's gotta be me who's way off base.  I just have a very different idea of Haruhi, and I really don't want to force/project my interpretations onto other people.