Motivation - Impression up to chapter 7

[Jason_Miao]

But this is on a motivation front.  I think Jason misses entirely that in context, this fic delivers a discussion of motivation transforming a group of informed skill jerkoff rookies into The Beginning of Legends, a crew you can look at and believe that In The Future, They Will Accomplish Greatness.

And I think that a buildungsroman of multiple people, if that is the core concept Bri is trying to pull off, is both really cool and ambitious as hell.  But...

Folcon: It's not just a title issue.   It's...well, if you whited out the title of the fic, gave chapter 1 to someone who'd never read the fic before (whether or not they are Familiar with Naruto), and asked them what they think the rest of the chapters are about, what answer would you get?  Is it going to be "This is a multi-builduingsroman"?  Is it going to be "motivation"?

Arakawa:
"So unfair!"   But Bri did briefly ask me in chat (a few hours ago) if that's what I meant, so it's a fair comment to raise.

I'm not saying this should be written as a wuxia story, or judged as a wuxia story (And in a bit of metacriticism, the fact that my comment could be interpreted that way shows how much I'm lacking clarity of purpose in my own writing)

I talked about wuxia because stories in that genre use training scenes - much like in Brian's story.  There, they work, because there is some fundamental direction behind it all (love!  honor!  revenge!  protection!) and the reader is well aware of it.  This isn't about wuxia or not wuxia - e.g the concept of the first line encapsulating the gist of the story is pretty established in western writing philosophy.  It just so happens that the examples I used are wuxia - if you like, you can replace my examples with stories that involve people in boot camp, or the sword training scenes in the L.E Modesett's Recluse series, or others, and make the same point.

[Dracos]

Haven't read it

Go read it.  It's a fun ride. :P  My bias is superclear.

[Arakawa]

It's...well, if you whited out the title of the fic, gave chapter 1 to someone who'd never read the fic before (whether or not they are Familiar with Naruto), and asked them what they think the rest of the chapters are about, what answer would you get?  Is it going to be "This is a multi-builduingsroman"?  Is it going to be "motivation"?

Fair enough. I'm of the opinion, though, that the story has every reason to be titled 'Motivation' (more so now that I've read the first chapter). I should add a question: were you motivated to study during your education? Are you motivated to do a good job at work? How well-defined is your motivation? Was it as clear-cut as "ninjas killed my brother, so therefore I must do my best in school"? Or was it a bit more vague? Does that mean the word 'motivation' fails to apply? In chapter one we already see a basic, conflict, one might say, of the fic: some of these kids clearly hate each other's guts; how do we motivate them to try to work together? Naruto in the original is an obnoxious slacker - what if he was actually motivated? -- in the sense that a person in Naruto's position might be motivated -- he's at ninja school, so he should be motivated to study to become a ninja.

If the title of a story is odd, consider that it must have made sense to the author. From this we can try to decode some key theme the author had in mind writing the story, that we might not otherwise have noticed.

I did have to take care to keep in mind that this was an exploration far more slowly paced, and focused on the sorts of realistic issues actual people spend most of their time worrying about (workplace conflicts, as opposed to ninja invasion), than is usually the case in fanfiction. Once I did that, I could read and enjoy. I do wonder how many people didn't realize / attempt to read the fic on these merits. The problem is that the reader's contract for Motivation (how they're supposed to approach the story) is apparently so different from that of other fanfiction that the question I'm looking to answer is, was there anything Brian could have done to clue the reader in and invite them to adopt the mindset necessary to enjoy the fic?

Besides titling it 'Motivation'.

Oh, and I should pay attention to what Dracos recommends, in future. Sure knows what makes a good read for a winter evening.

[Folcon]

Jason: I get that although it does make sense in context, you could argue Naruto is a builduingsroman, Brian just seems to be being a lot more ambitious about it. My point was more that it was perhaps as best a minor point, you can change a title right? Although after Dracos's cannon characters vs Brian's characters post I'm not sure that anyone would want to :)...

Arakawa Seijio: I'd agree with Dracos's character assessment of the series to be honest and I think your right about the difference in the reader's contract. It's one of the reasons I focused on ninja abilities when I first posted.
As an aside, one of the things that bugs me in cannon is I'm astounded how often they do Kawarimi (body replacement/substitution) with a log, even kakashi does this a couple of times and he's an elite! (ok sometimes they use logs with bombs on :) ). Why not a bushin (fake clone of yourself)? The genin can clearly make one when they leave the academy, so why not learn how to do it? Those extra seconds could save your life! But the story seems to focus on the children's development and force them to assess their abilities and be creative about using "simple" abilities. Though to be honest I still don't understand why most of the ninja world isn't under henge (transformation technique, which disguises you) a lot of the time, another of the many things that doesn't make sense to me ;)...

Dracos: Your breakdown of the characters here has got me thinking. I can't help but feel that as a exercise in world building, Naruto excels. However, few characters live up to that promise.

[Jason_Miao]

Fair enough. I'm of the opinion, though, that the story has every reason to be titled 'Motivation' (more so now that I've read the first chapter). I should add a question: were you motivated to study during your education? Are you motivated to do a good job at work? How well-defined is your motivation? Was it as clear-cut as "ninjas killed my brother, so therefore I must do my best in school"? Or was it a bit more vague? Does that mean the word 'motivation' fails to apply?

There's a difference between having a feature, and being about that feature. 

Most people eat food every day, but aren't defined by eating (And we don't need to look past the Naruto characters themselves to see this). 

Most Japanese people have black hair, but I rather doubt that most Japanese people define themselves as having black hair.  Sexiest?  Smartest?  Most dilligent?  A bit more likely. 

Most people over the age of 25 and under retirement age spend a good deal of their waking hours doing something related to work, but would be reluctant to define themselves by what they do at work ("My waking moments.  My dreams at night.  My every breath, every motion, every thought.  I -am- the Walmart Greeter.")

Sure, in school, I had some motivation.  But I would define my freshman year as being about Quake 2.

If the title of a story is odd, consider that it must have made sense to the author. From this we can try to decode some key theme the author had in mind writing the story, that we might not otherwise have noticed.

I could not disagree with you more on this particular point.  If one needs to use the metastory to understand the story, then I submit that indicates that the story itself is unclear.  If I tell a story at work about something that happened, I'm not even giving it a title (What would I call it?  "Gather 'round, colleagues, for I shall entertain you with 'The Tale of the Code of Federal Regulation 1.111(a)(2)'?"), but it's still a story, and had better hang together on its own.

And who said it's the author that decides a title?  The more formally you are using term author, the less that is likely to be true.   If you're an author in the strict sense (sold story to publishing house for printing), then you probably don't have rights to call your story what you want, because it's no longer "your" story.  As an example, I've read Isaac Asimov's autobiography, and his common complaint about selling stories to certain editors that they'd always change the title to something he thought was cruddy.  And for another editor, it would also sometimes come out with a new title, but one where he thought was eloquent and reflected the story in ways he hadn't thought of himself.  Sometimes, in a collection of stories, two titles are similar, and so one gets changed.  The upshot of this is that while it's always *better* for the title to reflect something the author thinks about the story, that isn't necessarily the case.

Of course, that's for published authors.  For fanfic writers, it's unlikely that they'll wake up to find that someone has changed the name of their stories.  Unless Bri has met with unexpectedly good fortune, I doubt that an editor at Tor books will swoop down upon him and require changes to his lines, scenes, trying to add characterization to hit certain markets, etc.  "Motivation" probably does reflect what Bri feels the fic should be about.  That's the reason for the initial review: because I didn't see the motivation in the story itself.  Of course, once Bri specifically pointed it out, then we can all see what he meant by motivation.  But again, if it's not clear from the story itself, then to me, that says the story isn't as clear as it can be.

The problem is that the reader's contract for Motivation (how they're supposed to approach the story) is apparently so different from that of other fanfiction that the question I'm looking to answer is, was there anything Brian could have done to clue the reader in and invite them to adopt the mindset necessary to enjoy the fic?

Besides titling it 'Motivation'.

Exactly this.  And honestly, this is what almost makes me go read the Naruto manga, so I could reasonably provide an intelligible answer.  I haven't, because I tried it reading it years before (when the first scanlations were floating around) and found it fairly boring. 

I get that although it does make sense in context, you could argue Naruto is a builduingsroman, Brian just seems to be being a lot more ambitious about it. My point was more that it was perhaps as best a minor point, you can change a title right?

Yes, that'll work...if you don't think the fic is really about motivation.  But it is supposed to be about motivation (as confirmed by Bri's last comment).  So, if I've read the situation correctly, then there's a mismatch between the writer's intent and a reader's expectations (or at least, a reader who hasn't had the benefit of chatting with Brian).

[Brian]

Yes, that'll work...if you don't think the fic is really about motivation.  But it is supposed to be about motivation (as confirmed by Bri's last comment).  So, if I've read the situation correctly, then there's a mismatch between the writer's intent and a reader's expectations (or at least, a reader who hasn't had the benefit of chatting with Brian).

Ugh.

Maybe once I get around to pulling it off the web, you'll stop beating up on something I never submitted for critical review. -_-

Edit: This started as a private discussion between you and Drac.  I would still be happily writing my 'just for fun' story if it had stayed that way.

[Dracos]

Arakawa:
I think it's somewhat of a self deception to really say it's hard for folks to grasp the context switch.  There was a pretty sizable crowd following the fic from launch to hiatus and at least some of them got it.

There's a number of other slow/training focused naruto fics out there that I don't think it's a particularly challenging notion to wrap your head around.


Jason:
I don't think I've met a career soldier that doesn't identify himself as a soldier.  You may wander as the context, but a ninja is a career soldier.  It's something that doesn't get turned off in a real sense.  I don't think it's a comparison declaring what folks spend 30-40 hours a week doing versus the identity result from those who do things 70-100+ hours a week.  There really are folks that live and breath it and these kids in the story really are doing that.

I think I'm gonna have to ask we table the 'title good or bad' as it's gotten really sidetracked.  We're not even talking about the fic anymore with it.  I think it's beating a dead horse at this point.

Sadly, I'll say what's missed here is that the goal on his end I think was to have fun in the setting and therefore wasn't of the critical analysis level that was applied to it.  I'm gonna have to ask we leave it at that.  Folks have communicated what they wanted to, and it's been taken how it will.  Reiteration isn't really doing anyone any good.

I'm closing the thread.  If folks want to talk about Motivation, let's start a healthier thread for it.