WotC says, "Baby, come back! You know I didn't mean it!"

[Anastasia]

www.enworld.org/forum/news/317373-seminar-transcript-class-design-assassins-wizards.html

More info on 5th edition.

[Anastasia]

Bumping this up since there's a playtest now. Has anyone read or played it? If so, any opinions?

[Brian]

The discussion thread on slashdot was basically flooded with a post-mortem on where 4th ed went wrong, and a general consensus that Pathfinder is the spiritual successor.  Kind of curious to hear more, though.

Edit: My guess is that fans of 3.x find the 4th ed nods to still be too much, but I don't have any data to back that up.

[Anastasia]

The discussion thread on slashdot was basically flooded with a post-mortem on where 4th ed went wrong, and a general consensus that Pathfinder is the spiritual successor.  Kind of curious to hear more, though.

I've seen the other side and it isn't any prettier. The main forum I follow is (rabidly) pro-4e and thinks 5th edition sucks.

Edit: My guess is that fans of 3.x find the 4th ed nods to still be too much, but I don't have any data to back that up.

I wouldn't be surprised. Pathfinder has had years to establish an identity and brand loyalty. Unless 5th edition is exactly what 3.x/Pathfinder fans want, I doubt there will be many conversions now. If anything, I'm wondering if WotC is going to manage to alienate both groups.

[Brian]

That actually seems the most likely, to me.

[Dracos]

We witness in our time, The Death of Dungeons and Dragons.  How they successfully buried a literally 40 year old franchise.

[Anastasia]

Meh, I wouldn't go that far. The D&D name has enough oomph to recover from a bad edition, I think.

[Carthrat]

Dramatic much? I think people will still be playing it for a while <_<

[Brian]

To be fair, what we consider the 'spirit' of D&D isn't attached to the name anymore.  Pathfinder is the spiritual successor, and my suspicion is that it'll be too much of a haven for the 3.5 crowd to stick with over 5th ed.  Net result, probably not actually get many of the 3.5 fans back, risk alienating some 4th ed fans....

It would have been smarter for WotC to try and buy Pathfinder and just maintain two gaming lines.  As it is, I don't think that 5th ed is going to be a failure to the point that D&D 'dies', but I don't expect it to be the success that they need, either.

[Dracos]

You know, I find it funny given that nobody in the last page of posts here plays any content or ruleset that D&D has been part of in the last 4 years, and equally mods the shit out of the 3.5 version that is played.  Others are looking to pathfinder to make their future games.

Taking a bit of fun data.

3.5 folks: Split between continuing where they are and pathfinder.  Possibly can be hooked.
Pathfinder fans: Long gone for the most part.  How bad?  Pathfinder has been winning the sales battle for over a year and also over the last year taken over the majority for convention spaces as well (Source ICv2).
4.0 folks: So far looking fractured/unhappy at the move.
New audience: Well always a hope.

Yes, I'm bein' a horrible troll.  Growl.  :P  But really, 4.0 was a mess, breaking over a decade long dominance of sales charts and showing the first real decline and fracturing of the audience since 3.0 came out.  5.0 isn't coming out in a void.  It's coming out in an environment where their dominating sales figures are evaporating and instead of it being folks waiting for the next 'big thing', it's actively being consumed by another company that is making their fortune off of it.  And voting with our dollar or our time, not a single one of us is saying we believe in the current vogue of D&D.

They're not facing palladium or white wolf eating their sales figures.  They're facing effectively an improved and polished version of one of their most popular systems to date that's been providing a clear transition path for folks instead of them having a vast switch needed.  Sure, D&D is an amazingly strong brand, but it's still entirely possible for them to make it irrelevant if they follow 4th Ed with something wishy-washy.

And attempting to appeal to every fan ever and accept every piece of literature ever is really the heart of being wishy-washy about your design.

Anyhow, still could be a strong product that draws back customers, but the evidence isn't seeming in that direction at the moment and D&D as a product/brand is the most vulnerable its been in over a decade.  I know, sacred cow and all, but just because something historically is amazingly famous and culturally ingrained doesn't mean it can't become irrelevant (Kodak, Xerox).

Hopefully it will be a strong product.  Better to see it that way.  But the opposite is entirely possible too.

[Anastasia]

Not strictly related, but not unrelated either.

http://wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd%2F4news%2F20120625

[Brian]

A 3.5 reprint?  I have a very difficult time seeing value in that this late in the game.

Maybe they're trying to see how much support the classic system had?  You'd think they'd just look at Pathfinder and figure it out from that, though....

[Anastasia]

That and seeing what parts of 3.5 are the most popular. Could be good 5e research.

[Brian]

Maybe.  Feels like a desperation move in any case. >_>

[Dracos]

That sounds...expensive and foolish.