[Haruhi] Warring Realities

[Muphrid]

If I understand correctly, you're concerned about how, if Haruhi and Kyon are dating, Haruhi would never disbelieve Kyon about the true nature of the brigade?  If so, then let me ask the stupid question--why is that something to avoid?  I find these are the sorts of questions one runs into from time to time--where you think letting something happen will break what you want to do, but my philosophy is to recognize these apparent holes and jump through them, embrace them, because they usually seem so big because inner reason on the one hand is fighting the creative process on the other.  People are reasonable, though (well...sometimes), so trying to suppress reason for one's vision may not end well.

I may have misinterpreted the dilemma, though.  If so, feel free to disregard what I've said.  Nevertheless, I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to avoid.

[Gotonis]

If I understand correctly, you're concerned about how, if Haruhi and Kyon are dating, Haruhi would never disbelieve Kyon about the true nature of the brigade?  If so, then let me ask the stupid question--why is that something to avoid?  I find these are the sorts of questions one runs into from time to time--where you think letting something happen will break what you want to do, but my philosophy is to recognize these apparent holes and jump through them, embrace them, because they usually seem so big because inner reason on the one hand is fighting the creative process on the other.  People are reasonable, though (well...sometimes), so trying to suppress reason for one's vision may not end well.

I may have misinterpreted the dilemma, though.  If so, feel free to disregard what I've said.  Nevertheless, I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to avoid.

I think you are misunderstanding the problem.


It's really more that I want to take away the abilities/abnormalities/etc. of the Brigade members (barring Haruhi) such that they never had powers in this world, possibly via causing the members to never have existed (in the alpha reality).
Problem is, I can't think of a way to justify doing it in light of Haruhi's personality; however, I can't leave them powered up no matter which version of Kyon remembers everything, as there would probably be conflicts either way.


Assuming alpha Kyon remembers everything(but not beta), if the Brigade members retain their powers and such, then the only changes are that he and Haruhi are suddenly dating and that Sasaki is gone, which can be handwaved as 'she moved some time long ago' or 'she never existed'. In this case, Kyon doesn't have as much of a reason to 'fix' reality, as the abnormal shenanigans he enjoys are still there. (My reasoning on this end is actually starting to show holes, but it's also not really the direction I want to go.)


Assuming beta Kyon(ko) remembers everything (but not alpha), the scenario I'd  rather write, (as it makes more sense to me,) then in alpha either the Brigade members have been hiding the truth from Kyon, which wouldn't make sense; or they spontaneously (from alpha Kyon's perspective) gained powers.


Basically, I'm wondering how to justify taking their powers and such away such that it fits with Haruhi's character.

[Halbarad]

re: Taking away the Brigade members abilities:

Speaking for myself, I don't honestly see how that can be justified and still have her meeting up with Kyon. Just to walk back the reasoning here:

Haruhi has some sort of powers, so the Mysterious Event of Three Years Ago (MEo3YA) that either resulted in the creation of the others' powers or their attention being drawn to Haruhi still has the potential to happen. However, if the others do not have powers and others displaying the same powers do not appear, then one of the most significant events from that period never occurs: there is no John Smith on Tanabata. It's possible that this Tanabata may even -be- the MEo3YA, which may mean that Haruhi never develops her powers in the first place.

Even setting that aside and assuming that Haruhi still gets her powers, she now has no real driving motivation to continue hunting for the supernatural - and arguably has no reason to go to Kitago, either. If she's got her powers, she's most likely still The Ace, and as such should have the academics to get into pretty much any school she chooses - so why not aim for something like Kouyouen, as in the Disappearance-verse, as it's definitely a better school than Kitago and would be a better fit for her academically.

No Kitago means she never meets Kyon, outside of some contrived chance-meeting outside of school, and if you take that setup, keeping any kind of realistic or deep relationship going is going to require a lot of extra effort on both their parts - which there's no establishing factor (such as fuzzy memories of John Smith) to really justify.

Even if she goes to Kitago and meets Kyon, there's less to draw her to him (again, no deja vu via memories of John Smith to pique her interest), but even assuming that she meets Kyon and he again catches her interest, she now has no reason to form the Brigade.

As such, trying to force "no one gets powers" kills the story on plausibility; a better angle might be that the Brigade members actually do get their powers, but are prevented from assembling to actually form the Brigade - and so Haruhi is forced to let the idea of her own personal club go for a lack of membership, which leaves her with much more time to hang out with Kyon, study with him, etc. - things that can be used to justify a deeper relationship. Kyon may still run into the other members, but not as part of an inner circle assembled by Haruhi - more as recurring figures that he's interacted with a few times that have a strange interest in his nominal girlfriend, but he has no idea why.

[Gotonis]

re: Hal:


That actually does sound like a rather elegant solution. Now that I think about it, justification and credibility aside, your idea probably would work better. I hadn't actually planned out any interactions involving the Brigade members, but it would seem that the interactions here would be easier to pull off.

As a side note, I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning about whether or not Haruhi and Kyon meet up and get together. My explanation behind it is moderately non-canon, and is part of the explanation on how Haruhi's/Sasaki's power works that is presented in Melancholy of Sasaki. It sort of draws from the fanfic 'The Origins of Haruhi', which is basically a collection of 5 chapter stories set in different timelines, where time travel (normally Mikuru) splits the timelines and causes things to happen differently, normally in a way that doesn't reflect the tampering. In each, Haruhi and Kyon are drawn together, as Haruhi invariably 'chooses' Kyon, who then fulfills whatever need Haruhi has for him: lover, friend, Brigade member, etc.

I won't go into the specifics of 'Origins', but the explanation I use is similar. In my continuity, the holder of the power and Kyon are invariably drawn together, given that Kyon exists in some form in that reality. If the power were to transfer, then Kyon would then eventually meet the new holder. I'm actually just now seeing a hole in this, as I believe Kyon didn't become friends with Sasaki until soon after the transfer, but I'm just going to pretend that pre-HS is pre-HS and have Kyon meet Haruhi earlier in MoS. However, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Basically, I'm interpreting/bending the rules to say that the holder of the power invariably meets Kyon, and he fills whatever role he/she needs him to fill.

Still, if Kyon is separate from the other members of the Brigade then that rule doesn't necessarily need to be called. Then again, that assumes Haruhi goes to North High in the first place. Considering that Kyon needs Mikuru to bring him back...

Wait a minute. Seeing as Haruhi's goal in recreating the world is to be with Kyon, I don't think she'd start changing details that place them apart. Plus, Haruhi doesn't know who John is, where he's from, or how he got there. She just knows that he was there, and would probably just keep the fact that he helped her a given, as well as any resemblance to Kyon. Therefore, regardless of the other Brigade members, Haruhi would probably still place herself in North High.

Still, I do like the angle of 'leave the powers in but separate them from Kyon,' and the implications that follow. I'll probably end up using that. Thanks.

[Brian]

I ... have to point out that I don't think Rai-Shu is a very good author to emulate.  More than just I have noticed that there's a peculiar void of emotional factors in his stories, to say nothing of the fact that he poorly explains things in almost all of his stories.  I enjoy what he writes, but I appreciate it for puzzling out what he meant, not any impression that he's very good at characterization or storytelling (in fact, he's pretty awful at both of those things).  And usually the tampering is reflected in the next timeline; there's a small bit of overlap/continuity there.  Interesting, yes, creative, sure, but....  That all aside.

Let's pretend that's not a factor, since it's me being irritable and biased (and not directed at you).  Instead, let's move on to the critical element.

You want to say that 'Kyon interacts with whoever holds the power.'  Okay, that's actually a fine point to work with, and I'm going to disagree with Halbarad a bit (and play Youkai's Advocate) -- you don't need to perfectly respect the canon if Haruhi's throwing it away, anyway.  The trick here is just to lampshade it properly.  Haruhi wants to rewrite the world so she goes to Kitago, meets Kyon, and the other factions aren't concerns--  There's a number of ways to accomplish this.

If Haruhi's recreating the world subconsciously, she doesn't actually need to be aware of a lot of factors.  It's subconscious.  There doesn't need to be a three-years ago event at all; she's just slightly more energetic than usual.  In fact, I think I've seen the same fanfic idea done a few times before -- if she's worried about Kyon and changes herself to (she thinks) suit him better, she could be a mellower person with Kyon in a stable relationship with him from (from his PoV), the moment he arrives in the new world.  Then you also don't have to worry about tampering with his memories; she just created what she thought was the ideal world and in typical Haruhi-manner kicked all obstacles to the curb.

Then the conflict is that Kyon wants to go back home, and doesn't enjoy Haruhi turning herself into a dere-dere copy of herself with none of her original fire -- Kyon has to show Haruhi that while she needs to respect and show concern for others, she still needs to hang onto her original fire.  Naturally, it would be great if she wouldn't throw a temper-tantrum and try and send Sasaki away (and by 'banishing' I meant 'out of the scene and probably home' not 'to another dimension' in the original suggestion), but crushing her independence and becoming subservient isn't the answer either.

In this setup, the others may be around, but they see Haruhi as stable.  They'd actually be potential antagonists, if they see Kyon as trying to upset the status quo.  The John Smith card may not even work in this universe; Haruhi might not have left that 'back door' in for Kyon; maybe he has to find some other way to convince Haruhi to be herself and not the spineless copy that just gives up on her desire to find the amazing.

Everything that's 'wrong' with this explanation and doesn't fit canon isn't something to cover up and justify -- it's now a tool for Kyon to point out how crazy things are.  Maybe Haruhi is trying not to remember things, and Kyon can remind her just by figuring out the right questions (Why did she choose Kitago?  What actually three years ago?  When did she just give up on finding amazing things?).

I may not have the right impression of the story you're trying to tell, here, so this may not be useful....  But maybe it'll prompt an idea that suits you better.

[Gotonis]

Right. Sorry for dropping off the face of the earth and whatnot, I'm getting busy with school and such. Let's just say this isn't going to be the last time I don't show up for a few weeks.


@Brian:


I agree, Rai isn't the best writer. Even in a storyline setup where characterizations are deliberately off, phrases were used that didn't exactly belong, not that it's relevant or anything...


Still, I think you do have a wrong impression. Haruhi was one of the few people who I didn't want to have either a huge personality change, loss of ability/change of usage thereof, or memory conflict. I wanted her to soften up more to Kyon a bit, but that's really more situational (they are dating, after all...). Think LWtS Haruhi; I'm probably going to drive for something close to that. Of course, that also depends how the past gets set up. If I end up keeping the Brigade around (albeit changing the others' goals and methods) that's what I'll use. If it's just her and Kyon, she'll probably be more outward in her dependence on him.


Meanwhile, I still want to have beta Kyon be the one putting everything back together. I mean, if Kyon knows about everything and still has the Brigade around... I mean, if the members were trying to take advantage of Haruhi's powers or something then yeah, but again, Haruhi's recreating the world. Why would she make them want to control the power she doesn't know she has? If they're trying to get her to keep creating and not grow complacent... I'm not sure. I feel like I'm just arrogantly pushing back against you guys on this point despite your experience, but I really think Kyonko fixing things would work better. Also, even if Kyon remembers everything, he'll assume there is no beta world, so why would he try to put the two back together?


I think I'm just going to establish that as fact unless I decide to change it.
Kyonko remembers, while Kyon has small but growing memory issues.
Kyon/ko isn't fixing Haruhi, s/he's fixing the world.


On a different note, the question of whether to keep or unmake the name John Smith is a good question. I had originally planned to have Kyonko use it in the stiching things back together scene, but...
Actually, maybe it could be used to 'remind' Kyon of the past. I'm not entirely sure how far I'm going to take the memory issues, but if it becomes prevalent enough that'll be the final step, and it will probably be accompanied by Haruhi wondering who it is (either having heard the name but not knowing where or being flat out unfamiliar.)


Right. I mean no disrespect in not using ideas, it's really more what I feel does or does not work. I'll try to use something from every post, even if it is just to prompt me to clarify/come up with a reason for something that isn't defined or something.


I'll be around as circumstance allows.
~Gotonis

[Arakawa]

Right. I mean no disrespect in not using ideas, it's really more what I feel does or does not work. I'll try to use something from every post, even if it is just to prompt me to clarify/come up with a reason for something that isn't defined or something.

Just a friendly note: there's absolutely no need to worry like that. While it's always flattering to have someone take your ideas and actually do the hard work of making them viable, I'm pretty sure everyone who gave feedback / suggestions did it to help you develop your own reasons and vision for what happens. I personally don't mind being ignored, and would be far more flattered by someone who listens to my idea, and figures out good reasons for why my suggestions are crap and why they should do exactly the opposite (incidentally, I would then have an alternative to consider to my probably-shaky views of the canon); rather than if someone were to take one of my ideas that they didn't actually understand or agree with, just to be polite.

Of course, if anything anyone said actually does make sense, feel free to use as much or as little as... happens to make sense.

[Gotonis]

@ Arakawa- Maybe I'm just worrying too much about being on people's good sides.


Anyway, I've been thinking a bit about how I want to do this. I stumbled across the concept of the power never leaving Sasaki in the first place. She'd have tried to get rid of it or something somehow three years ago, wanting someone else to have it. Haruhi gets the power (probably either on Tanabata, at the baseball game, or over some gradual period or something), but it doesn't leave Sasaki. It's pushed down a bit. She still gravitates toward Kyon, possibly giving him whatever aspect draws him and Haruhi together.
This doesn't seem to differ much from how things worked before, but it's subtly different. The view I'm looking into is having the power actually semi-actively working on a lower level in Sasaki's subconscious; beneath the top layer of calm Closed Spaces is a 'perfect' world forming.
Where it starts to stretch is the next step of this: Sasaki's power is actually manipulating things to get to the point where it can be fully active and usher in this new world. This is even to the point of actually messing with Haruhi's emotions, raising the moderately small amount of jealousy she feels to astronomical levels. The power knew Kyon would take the truck, and knew it would be a perfect catalyst. Sasaki goes into RAGE mode, and the 'perfect' world is brought into being. I'm actually not sure yet in which viewpoint the world is perfect, Sasaki's or the power's.


This is still a bit of a stretch, but it also works in a few ways. For one thing, the manipulative nature of Sasaki's power can easily be  projected onto Yasumi. In fact, I'm actually wondering if, in the case that I take this route, the powers would be the same being or separate entities with separate agendas. I'm actually thinking storyline-wise that it would make more sense to split them; Sasaki's power is okay with having Kyon die (of course, it knows he's going to be resurrected into the new world...), while Kyon seems (in canon) to be almost immune to Haruhi's power (examples may be given). Also, the way I want to run the ending, Kyon through some thought process I have yet to figure out is the one to decide to reset things to make way for TMoS. Actually, I could just go with something along the lines of trusting Yasumi to create a good god-power-entity as opposed to Sasaki's (effectively replacing it) and be the dominant of the pair. Invoking 'Kyon is god' isn't really doable, considering he 'dies', although handwaving can probably take care of that if that ends up working better.


/braindump


Alright, I'm still not sure about how I want this to work, but I think I have this more fleshed out than when I started writing this. Any advice would be rather appreciated. This does seem like it has gaping holes. I feel I filled a few, but there are probably more that I can't see from this angle.


Oh yeah, sidenote: the personalities of the powers do not necessarily intersect the personalities of the users; I'm not trying to cast Sasaki as this manipulative type of person, as that doesn't exactly fit with, well, anything.


Oh hey, I should probably include some flashback or something to show a conflict b/w Sasaki and her power; basically, Sasaki's in control to some degree (hence Yasumi isn't an outright antagonist), but can't actually exorcise the power from herself.


Thoughts?

[Brian]

This probably deserves a more detailed examination later.

Off the top of my head, though, this feels like you're putting a lot of effort into trying to force the story.  That's to say, it's not coming organically.  My suggestion is to take a step back and look at it from a slightly more abstract viewpoint.  Try to come up with a concise, simple explanation that can be fit into a few lines (a single paragraph) that can encapsulate what you're hoping to achieve.

So ... what do you want your story to do?  You're putting a lot of work into trying to make something work, and I can see that  ... but the fact that you yourself say 'starts to stretch' suggest that even you doubt the plausibility of what you're looking at.  So.  In simple terms, what do you want your story to accomplish?

[Muphrid]

My Ph. D. advisor has said many times that in computational physics problems, there is often "conservation of misery."  Even if you can rearrange the problem in some way, inevitably some brute work must be done, and you're just shuffling around things with bookkeeping.

I think the general sentiment applies here, too.  Remember that Sasaki's closed spaces are generally static--why does she want to change anything in the first place?  Such a thing isn't implausible, but it requires development and setup.

If Haruhi's emotions are being manipulated by Sasaki, it reflects poorly on Sasaki for manipulating her.

Beyond that, the only thing I can say is that for a project of this size, you have a big focus on what you want to have happen, but I'm still concerned that the why is missing.  I'm not speaking of setting up a sequel project, but rather, why would Kyon choose to have the world remade so that Sasaki goes to high school with him?  What is it about this experience that makes him come to this conclusion?

In other words, as much as is reasonable I caution you against having things happen that are due to a character's "subconscious" desires, due to powers having ramifications beyond any reasonable person's ability to predict or control.  An outside, cosmic force is responsible for events---instead of characters---events often times lose meaning.  That can be great if you're writing something Lovecraftian, but in the normal course of writing, it robs you have an opportunity to have characters learn and grow.  I dare say the entire setup of two AUs running side-by-side costs a great deal of opportunity, for Sasaki and Haruhi can learn nothing in their respective universes.


At any rate, there is another half to my advisor's wisdom, I think---ultimately, we can do much more today than we used to be able to because scientists and programmers developed new techniques to attack problems.  You can't be married to an idea to the exclusion of all others.  I encourage you to step back, to think of some way to make this entire premise simpler and less complicated rather than adding on layers and hoping that it will all stitch itself together.  Often times, I find that there's an angle on an idea I had that would totally unravel what I thought I wanted to do.  Usually, this is exactly what you should do; if you're so afraid that something simple might undo your intentions, it's because that's the logical course, and what you're trying to do has a deficiency that can't be covered up.

Food for thought.  I hope this is helpful in some way.

[Gotonis]

Honestly, I've actually been going back and forth a bit about this. I think that complex and bullet-torn idea I threw out was just a desperate attempt to find some rational way of getting what I wanted to happen to actually happen.

Off the top of my head, though, this feels like you're putting a lot of effort into trying to force the story.  That's to say, it's not coming organically.  My suggestion is to take a step back and look at it from a slightly more abstract viewpoint.  Try to come up with a concise, simple explanation that can be fit into a few lines (a single paragraph) that can encapsulate what you're hoping to achieve.

As previously stated, I agree that I'm forcing it pretty hard. I'm not sure there's actually a good way to construct the situation I want to portray. I can explain quite concisely what I want to achieve (here with specifics removed):


Haruhi and Sasaki are fighting with each other and end up forming two separate realities, each with its own Kyon. These two realities are fighting for dominance, one of which is to take over as the dominant world, while the other is to fade. One (or both) of the Kyons remembers the original world and tries to fix everything. At the climax, one Kyon somehow crosses over an overlap in the worlds and brings the two goddesses together, admonishing them. He for whatever reason (by 'whatever reason', I have absolutely no idea what I mean, as there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for doing this) decides he wants to see the world with their roles reversed, and his wish is somehow granted.

Beyond that, the only thing I can say is that for a project of this size, you have a big focus on what you want to have happen, but I'm still concerned that the why is missing.  I'm not speaking of setting up a sequel project, but rather, why would Kyon choose to have the world remade so that Sasaki goes to high school with him?  What is it about this experience that makes him come to this conclusion?

That's the problem.


Again, there's no logical reason to set up a 'reverse Haruhi and Sasaki' storyline. It seems that Poe's method of building from the climax backward doesn't work well for prose,  especially when the characters' personalities are defined.

An outside, cosmic force is responsible for events---instead of characters---events often times lose meaning.

I've actually been thinking along similar lines, namely that this almost feels like making a DBZ fanfic about Goku pulling SSJ 47 out of nowhere.
Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but it's basically the sentiment of 'I want to see this happen because it's awesome.' I'm writing based on the plot rather than the characters, something I now see as a terrible way to write stories of this genre, and something I should've seen long ago.


I'm thinking once again that this idea isn't actually workable. I can't see any logical reason to have Kyon suggest switching their places as opposed to, say, removing the power completely or using temporal reversal to keep things from happening or some such cliche.
Suspending disbelief on this action, why are the two fighting in the first place? I can see Haruhi wanting to remove Sasaki for seeing some form of romantic development, but that doesn't fit Sasaki's character (as I interpret it, and as I'm sure many readers would agree). Reversing it, Sasaki wouldn't instigate conflict with Haruhi for any reason short of Kyon's death, if that, and Haruhi would be even less likely to kill Kyon than Sasaki would be to start romantic development. There isn't much of a reason for those two to be fighting.

Remember that Sasaki's closed spaces are generally static--why does she want to change anything in the first place?  Such a thing isn't implausible, but it requires development and setup.

Well, portraying that as a top layer, under which there is a desire for change, seems like it could potentially work, reflecting a mask of acceptance but an inner desire to change things, but...
I mean, I guess inventing a desire for change that may or may not actually be there may actually be plausible. Sasaki for whatever reason having her facade shatter and trying to change things may spark a conflict, as Haruhi may not like where things may be headed...
Actually, I could just portray Sasaki as wishing for her role to be reversed with Haruhi's, allowing her to be closer to Kyon. Then, I could just cut out the middle man and jump directly into Melancholy of Sasaki, potentially avoiding the conflict of realities. Of course, then Sasaki seems a bit self-centered, switching roles with Haruhi specifically to get the 'better' role. Then again, I want to have Haruhi appear early in that, so she could probably set it up so that they can 'share' Kyon a bit easier.
Thing is, I was envisioning Kyon having a different personality on the surface due to early exposure to Haruhi rather than Sasaki. Of course, deep down he'd be the same person, the only real difference being a belief in the extraordinary and a will to put in effort.


Well, now I'm just trying to force a setup onto MoS. I'm really liking the idea of just skipping directly to MoS, disregarding any jokes involving passing Go and collecting 200$. It seems it would be much easier to write; I have a beginning point and I have characters. I don't have an endpoint I'm bending over backwards to reach, I can do whatever I want. Or, rather, the characters can go wherever they want. However, it would be able to flow.


I think I've made my point. I have a story that has an endpoint defined but can't figure out how to reach it, and I have a story that can go anywhere it wants and an interesting starting point to explore from (no handwaving required). I think the choice is clear.


I mean, unless anyone would actually rather see WR and has some epic idea or system thereof that makes everything work perfectly...

[Brian]

If you can't get WR to click, setting it aside may be just fine.  My advice on that front, then, is that if you want to jump into tMoS, don't bother with a justification for the setup.  Just go ahead and jump straight into an AU; it sounds like you can do this without much trouble, and you'll probably have an easier time of it if you're not burdened by the baggage of the WR idea that you can't quite get to fit.

There's always time to come back to WR later, and maybe you can connect the ideas, and maybe they'll be separate.  Either way should be fine, really.  :)

[Gotonis]

If you can't get WR to click, setting it aside may be just fine.  My advice on that front, then, is that if you want to jump into tMoS, don't bother with a justification for the setup.  Just go ahead and jump straight into an AU; it sounds like you can do this without much trouble, and you'll probably have an easier time of it if you're not burdened by the baggage of the WR idea that you can't quite get to fit.

There's always time to come back to WR later, and maybe you can connect the ideas, and maybe they'll be separate.  Either way should be fine, really.  :)

That's what I was planning on. All I was hoping was that I wouldn't be guilt-tripped into not quitting.

Right. I have a lot of schoolwork to do over the next couple of weeks, but when I get a chance I'll start banging out outlines. I'm thinking I'm going to borrow a bit from a fanfic I read once: Sympathy, by... Durandall.


I'm not going to borrow much, but I'm thinking Kyon and Sasaki are going to be similar to that story's Haruhi and Kyon, respectively.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm not sure how much of this I've put out already, but my plan is to have Kyon go into High School acting similar to how Haruhi had, believing in aliens and whatnot, but more... Kyonlike. Basically, he believes in that stuff because instead of having Sasaki convince him that fantasy was only fantasy, he had Haruhi reinforcing his interests. The only reason they're at two separate schools is that they want to spread the Brigade (if the name stays) further. Meanwhile, Sasaki is going to be on the melancholic side; she'll have been alone as Haruhi was, but will have believed in a more depressing world, and will be more depressed. Kyon will drag her into the Brigade for some to-be-determined reason, as he will the other members. I'm not entirely sure how I'm going to handle it all yet, but it's not going to be difficult. Actually, Sasaki will probably still have Kunikida to be friends with. He'd probably be informing Kyon rather than Taniguchi, so they'll be reversed in positions to a degree. However, he'll actually be friends with Sasaki. I'm not entirely sure what Kyon's reason is to enlist Mikuru, but I'm actually thinking Koizumi will be transferring from Haruhi's school under orders to join Kyon's Brigade fragment. Haruhi will probably end up without a Brigade, or at least one with many members, and will probably start just commandeering the Kitago Brigade, much like in The Disappearance of Nagato Yuki. Maybe Mikuru will be on her end rather than Kyon's...

I love how ideas form as I'm trying to explain previous ones, especially when they reinforce the old.


Yup, I have a feeling this'll almost write itself.

[Muphrid]

That sounds like a fairly solid idea.  But one point in particular,

Spoiler: ShowHide

Is it possible Fujiwara, Suou, and Tachibana would follow Sasaki to North High and join Kyon's brigade?

Just a thought; I feel like this basic premise has a lot of potential, and certainly in borrowing from "Sympathy" I'm sure you can ask Brian about any finer points that he had to deal with in writing that piece and how they might relate to what you have planned.

Glad to see you're still plugging away here.

[Gotonis]

@Muphrid


Actually,

Spoiler: ShowHide

 it's more likely that they'll contact Haruhi first, if anyone. I'm planning to use the original members as the Brigade, as I'm more comfortable working with them.

However, you present a good point. I probably will have to introduce the ASOS Brigade eventually. After all, Sasaki's personality is more stable, meaning Closed Spaces aren't as much of a risk (after something close to a parallel to Melancholy), and Sasaki isn't going to be butting heads with Kyon. I'm thinking the IDSE (sans Nagato) may need to become more aggressive at the appropriate time; in fact, any of the three backing organizations can be vilified if necessary. Haruhi and Kyon will be close this time around, but she can still cause problems, especially considering her relatively early appearance and, well, Haruhi-ness. Also, there's the whole conflict about how Kyon's intention is to convince Sasaki of the supernatural, but he' snot exactly able to do that on penalty of possible recreation.


Still, the members of the Anti-SOS Brigade may appear separately in different roles. I'm actually not seeing them collaborating with Haruhi to move powers around, that's for sure.

However, what I'm more concerned with is Kunikida and Taniguchi, or at least in terms of nonmajor characters. I'm actually thinking of placing Kunikida and Sasaki moderately close together, but I'm not entirely sure how I want to handle that. Meanwhile, I'm not entirely sure I'm going to give Taniguchi much of a part at all.


On another note, I'm actually starting to wonder if I should even let Haruhi in on the plot. I mean, it's not dangerous for her to know, and she may be more likely to believe Kyon about it in this setting, but putting her in the dark makes it easier to use what's mentioned in the spoiler area (which I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning behind apart from not rendering yours pointless).