Some things i drew, seeking for advice

[Agasa]

So, i enjoy drawing things inspired by the works of a certain author around here. After drawing stuff more or less straight from his Haruhi fics, He asked me directly to draw something based on a pose he found funny.



So i did - then i doodled some possible "Why this is happening" in separate vignettes at the bottom of the page. Problem is, the explosions aren't that good for me. Any pointers?

P.S.: I'll post the rest of the pictures that i drew in this thread later (not now, it's very late right now and i'm going to sleep) - there are some parts that i can't get right and i'm sure that you'll be able to help.

[Merc]

I rather like that bottom middle explosion, honestly.

[sarsaparilla]

Just to understand your intent better -- are you seeking general advice on how to improve your drawing skills, or specific advice on drawing certain details in a way that reflects some existing conception? I can easily provide the former; the latter is a much more subjective issue, and the best advice is to seek images that closely match the preconceived notion and use those as a reference.

[Agasa]

A bit of both really. I strive to be able to draw in the (anime) style of Haruhi as perfectly as i can (also to be able to draw nicely in general), so any advice is welcome.

On the picture, i have the problem that i don't seem to be able to give the explosion a proper solidity - the smoke comes out wrong, too flat. Kyon and Koizumi are pretty ok to me, except for Kyon's chin in the big picture. It looks wrong, somehow and i can't figure out how.

Another big problem is the faces, especially for Kyon (i'm sure you noticed the guys are faceless). I can never figure out what face he'd make in a given situation, especially in the K:BDH situations that are a lot more cheerful/triumphant/badass than what he saw so far, that is, in the novel canon. His default expression is neutral - we saw him mildly amused, tired, annoyed, but not once i saw him grinning in satisfaction - merely content or relaxed. That's why i have difficulty picturing him like that (during the preparation of something, tho, i can easily picture him in the Gendo Pose in the future, and that's quite scary).

For Koizumi i can cheat and default to Fabulous McSmiling Face, and Yuki's usual non-expression is pretty easy too (well, not really - i have another picture i almost trashed due to my inability to draw her eyes as i wanted, i'll get it posted later).

EDIT: later became now, so here it is (it's from K:BDH, Multi-Mook Melee chapter.) http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/HiroshiAgasa/Yukipunchink11-1.jpg

Her eyes are wrong, and i failed repeatedly at fixing them, to no avail, until i abandoned the picture.

[sarsaparilla]

Concerning explosions, Google image search provides a very large sample of potential references, here's one good page from the top of the list. It looks like you want to draw a fireball -- think of it as a cloud that just happens to be lit from inside. It has the same kind of fractal structure and texture as a normal cloud, and the smoke is located on the outer surface of the object, which means that the ball is brightest at the center and turns from white to yellow to red toward the edges, and smoke appears dark gray or black against the brighter background. Many paint programs have ready-made fractal painting tools, so you can start with a uniform white object and then add increasingly darker layers of fractals on top of that.

Concerning drawing skills in general -- what is the image about? Is it a page of a comic, or just a series of sketches for trying out different scenarios? The large image has some obvious problems that are less evident in the vignettes. Please find below a number of issues that you might want to consider.

The composition is stiff. At the moment, it looks more like a diagram of an idea than an actual drawing. Horizontally, the 'camera' is directly in front or back of the characters which makes the poses look unnatural. The same thing happens vertically, except that the perspective isn't even consistent. Correcting these issues requires choosing a suitable camera angle and finding the horizon and a vanishing point, then drawing a grid if necessary to see how the characters fit into the defined space. Specific attention should be paid to feet, as they must support the weight of the character, and the effect of gravitation propagates from there to the rest of the body. If you take a look at this sketch (the one in the middle) you can see how the uneven weight on the legs translates into a tilted pelvis and a twisted backbone.

The proportions are somewhat off. In the large image, if Kyon lets his arms rest on the sides, his hands will reach down to his knees. Koizumi's lower body is poorly defined. Actually, what you should do is to draw their bodies without clothes first because that would make it easier to check the proportions, and once those are acceptable, add the clothes on top of that (the sketch given above shows what kind of detail is sufficient). The long coat especially is troublesome in this regard, as it seemingly hides any small issues with body scaling, but the issues will still be apparent in the final result. Again, the poses are stiff and unnatural. There is always an amount of twisting and anticipation of movement and gravity in a human body. It's worth the effort to try to take the desired pose yourself and experiment with it to find out what feels natural and what doesn't. E.g., there should be a slight turn of the upper body toward the other character in such a gesture, as it's very awkward to extend an arm directly to the side, holding that position.

You said that you're not satisfied with Kyon's jawline in the large image. However, it looks reasonably good in the vignette pictures. There are actually several issues with Kyon's head in the large image. The size and shape is not consistent with the proportions of the neck (which should be somewhat longer), it is slightly sloped to the right, and the tip of the chin is too high -- try drawing the entire jawline (and the whole head) as seen from the front and then hiding those parts that are not visible from behind.

Concerning the Yuki drawing, the coloring is nice but it has the same kind of structural problems as the one above: general stiffness, unnatural angles, and poorly defined pelvic areas.

[Agasa]

You're right - now that you showed me, Kyon looks like he has a case of "I swallowed a broomstick" syndrome. Makes me sad...Most of the problem comes (in addition to my ineptitude) from the way i made the picture in the first place - i was requested to do a pose similar to http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/189/1/c/goku_and_vegeta_fist_bump_by_khiddretro96-d3lgbdt.jpg , so i tried to reverse-engineer the skeleton from it and adjust the proportions (Vegeta is really short - and they're both very, very muscled - that won't work for Kyon and Koizumi). This is the part that failed, so Kyon ended up with a short neck i suspect, and i had to rework the muscle mass, so he ended up with really stiff shoulders - if i bend the left shoulder down, he looks too feminine with the coat on, so i had to straighten it and broaden it.

Koizumi, i think, looks marginally better because i got tired of trying to follow the reference and winged it.

I believe that the bottom picture looks better because you actually can see Kyon's body under the coat.

Gah, it's a disaster and i again am not sure how to fix it...

About the arms, if you measure them, they would get at mid-thigh  height - you sure that's wrong?

For the pelvic areas, i'm not sure about what you mean. How do i define them better, especially for the female form? Yuki's pose looks more than a bit stiff, i could cheat and say it's because she's not technically human (joking, don't worry - i know it's bad but i'm not sure how to fix her :P) but i have no excuse for the waist, even if to me it looked right.

It's true that you need someone else's opinion to see the mistakes in your own art - i would've seen nothing wrong in that aspects of the drawings if you didn't tell me. They're pretty painful to see now - thanks.

[sarsaparilla]

The reference pose does many things right. As I mentioned above, the upper body is slightly turned toward the center. Although the camera is right behind the two persons, there's enough asymmetry caused by one being much taller than the other. Also, the camera is set very low, around the waistline, which makes the angle more dynamic; the persons look taller and more powerful than if the camera was on the head level. The taller of the two is leaning slightly forward, the shorter backward, again a minute symmetry break. The moment chosen for the image is just before the fist bump -- thus gaining tension through anticipation. Although their clothes are loose, the underlying bodies have been properly imagined through the way the clothes wrap around them.

What is unrealistic about the image is body proportions; it's not just the muscle mass, but all proportions are slightly exaggerated to make their bodies look more powerful. The arms in particular are longer (and larger) than normal.

Concerning your drawings, and especially the pelvic area, please take a look at these sketches:



Starting from the left, the first two images show the pelvic bone from front and side. It is a large, rigid assembly, and it is essential to understand its structure in order to draw the pelvic area properly. Observe the two large blades (ilium) that form a wide V shape on the sides -- these are the anchors to which leg muscles attach themselves, and thus they mark the joint line between the body and the legs. Also notice how the femur is attached to the ball socket (acetabulum) at a right angle, an essential feature for the proper functioning of the joint.

The image in the middle (body and legs) depicts the basic model used in your drawings. It works as a rough, first degree approximation, but it is very rigid and anatomically incorrect, especially around the pelvic area.

The two sketches on the right show a more appropriate model from front and side. The body has three distinctive parts, a rigid rib cage, a flexible abdomen, and a rigid pelvis. Drawing these areas separately and observing their relative position makes the body flexible. As mentioned above, the legs are not attached to the pelvis through a horizontal joint but an inclined one, and the joint lines have been drawn for legs and arms. When you start with this kind of support structure, it is much easier to see that all proportions are correct and there aren't any unnatural angles for body joints.

[Agasa]

...Oh.
Hello! I'm sorry i didn't answer to this earlier, but got overwhelmed by stuff. Started the BDH VN project, got into legal trouble, school, you name it - it's not an excuse, in fact. I'm crappy at taking notice of things to do, and often lose track of stuff down the road. Tell that to my many unfinished projects.

This said: Your advice is awesome, and it helped me set some stuff straight. I've been trying to sketch without external help for a while still, and improved (especially in my coloring) but it wasn't enough, so i went the serious way and (lacking a model to pose for me) i tackled photographic references. It works wonderfully for a lot of skills, and you can tweak it to be as manga-like as you want! (and if you're not afraid of nudes / there's a rule against it, i'll try to post something sooner or later.)

Thanks a bunch,
Your forever slowpoke Agasa

[Brian]

...(and if you're not afraid of nudes / there's a rule against it, i'll try to post something sooner or later.)

Spoiler tags and an NSFW warning before the post should be fine.  I think.

Merc's call, ultimately.  Merc?

[Merc]

Technically Drac's call ultimately, though I can't find any rule written out that we're keeping the forum PG-rated or such. I'd be okay with spoiler tags/NSFW warnings, personally.

[Dracos]

That is pretty much the way it goes.  We're not that big.  I'm not worried about getting some legal mess.  Though better to link than embed.