[Haruhi] Character studies

[sarsaparilla]

@Muphrid: Yes, those would seem to be the pertinent questions (with possibly adding #5: what does she know and/or suspect). I have my own preferred answers to each, but I'll have to refrain from presenting them here, as I'm currently writing a ~150,000 word character study on Haruhi by the name 'Insight'. >_>

[Halbarad]

Epically lazy here; takes me an extra couple of days to post in my own topic. =P

For myself, the most defining characteristic of Haruhi is her pride, which ends up coloring almost everything else she's involved in, and continues to be a defining characteristic even with the character growth she's experienced. Early on, it's blatantly obvious; she's haughty and dismissive of almost everyone around her; in no small part I suspect this is reinforced by the fact that she is the Ace, and excels at anything she puts her mind to - but I don't think that's the only source of it, either. It really stems from the baseball game she mentions to Kyon in Melancholy; deciding that she's going to be a person that special and extraordinary things are going to happen to would require that kind of pride as well. Kyon really starts putting the cracks in that facade early in Melancholy, though; at least as I see it, he's basically the proof that an ordinary person can be interesting, or can have extraordinary ideas.

Her pride, though, is what colors a lot of her interactions with other people - the unrelenting belief that she's special gives her an excuse not to care about what other people say or think (both for good and ill). She also can't admit she's wrong because of that pride, which leads to things like the confrontation between her and Kyon in Sighs, and I suspect is a major contributing factor to the way she treats Kyon - she can't flat out admit she finds him interesting or that she likes him without retracting stances she's already taken (that she has no interest in ordinary humans, or that she finds love to be a mental illness). For the former, I see that leading to the amount of abuse (or 'encouragement', as she likely sees it) that she heaps on him; it's an attempt at getting him to become someone that's extraordinary in some way, so she can admit to her interest in him without contradicting herself. For the latter, it's why I suspect any concept of romance with Kyon will remain at a near-indefinite stalemate - she'd have to admit she was wrong about love in general, as well as about the people she's interested in, and while she'd probably accept a confession from Kyon (likely gladly, as it takes the burden of justifying the relationship off her own shoulders), he's too passive/content with the status quo to potentially disturb matters by pursuing such a thing.

In terms of her growth, I see her as learning to set aside that pride, though; she's coming to realize that 'normal' people can be interesting in their own ways, through her relationships with Kyon, Tsuruya, and Sakanaka, and she's likely also realizing that if she sticks to that pride, it'll continue to isolate her from other people - she can't enjoy these relationships that she's come to enjoy and still stick to her guns completely. I doubt it's something she'll ever lose, or that it'll ever be a minor part of her personality (since that reinforcement of being the Ace is pretty strong), but she's growing/grown to a point where it no longer dictates everything she does.

Underneath it, though, she's definitely a rather lonely person; she's isolated herself and dismissed almost everyone for so long by the beginning of Melancholy that I find it quite likely she doesn't even remember what having friends is like; the reputation that seems to have followed her from middle school would seem to indicate that she distanced herself from everyone there, and it's not really until Kyon starts to try getting her to open up and her own formation of the Brigade that she starts to remember what it's like to interact and enjoy the company of others - which is what leads to her primary character growth. It's pretty obvious that she has no real concept of what's proper and what isn't - largely from her treatment of Mikuru on multiple occasions - which is what drives home the idea to me that she hasn't really had friends, or even friendly acquaintances, for quite some time.

[Brian]

* Brian kicks thread:

Here's a question I'm curious to see other people's feedback on.  What does Haruhi see in Kyon?

[JonBob]

Well, from the other parts of Haruhi's character study, I'd imagine that the biggest interest driver in Kyon is her loneliness. Like, here's a guy who's interested in her and actually sticks around. It probably doesn't hurt that there's the "vague" resemblance to John Smith.

Aside from that, I don't really know what she might see in Kyon. He's very loyal, but less so outwardly than, say, Koizumi. He pays attention to Yuki and Mikuru instead of her. He's snarky and "disloyal" at times. Really, I can only think that between the initial crush of a guy actually paying attention to her for her and being there long enough, there's not a huge reason she should like him.

[Halbarad]

My answer is pretty thoroughly covered in Under Review, but I can recap here simply enough.

As I see her, Haruhi coming out of middle school has been going through an attention-grabbing phase of her life, where she's trying pretty much anything and everything she can to feel/seem special and unique. What she gets for her efforts is a reputation as a troublemaker and an ice queen, neither of which are special or unique - they're labels that basically pigeonhole her into some predictable subset of people.

Coming out of this into high school, she seems more standoffish than overtly out to get attention; she's not shy about saying what she thinks, but she also doesn't go out of her way to do things explicitly designed to get attention for herself (somewhat arguable with the bunnygirl incident after she first recruits Mikuru, but this is after the formation of the Brigade which itself is a change for her). What she gets in response to her initial shift in behavior is a different set of labels - antisocial, weird, isolated - but still labels that are anything but unique and attempt to classify her in some way with other people like her.

Where Kyon is different in this is that he actually spends time trying to get to know her, rather than just relying on the stereotypes that have been applied to her. She's not particularly receptive at first, and even pretty intimidating in turning him away or trying to demonstrate that she doesn't care, but where most people would just pick a label for her and work from there, Kyon keeps trying different things, poking away at her, figuring out what is unique about her. Obviously this is mostly on a superficial level at first, but I suspect even that much is a first for Haruhi - and so it draws and keeps her interest in him, up through the end of Melancholy at least.

The end of Melancholy gives her another tie to Kyon, if only on a subconscious level, but it's definitely fuel that keeps her interest going as things progress. From there, Kyon proves to be unique to her in a number of ways: he's willing to resist her, he still doesn't give up when she pushes back, and he's not intimidated by her - and even among the Brigade members, these are attributes that make Kyon unique. Koizumi and Yuki simply give way in the face of whatever she wants, and Mikuru is terrified of her (and I wouldn't be surprised if she can pick up on some nervousness or fear from Koizumi as well), but Kyon actually is willing to stand up to her, to say 'no' when he thinks it's appropriate.

For her, it basically boils down to the fact that Kyon is unique, at least in the way he reacts to her - even if in every other way he's a typically boring, average high school student.

[Muphrid]

I admit, seeing this question, I felt myself on very uncertain ground, so I decided to go back to the first novel and try to gain some insight, something focused enough to piece together a plausible theory.

After Haruhi's introduction, Kyon engages Haruhi in conversation every so often.  Haruhi seems irritated throughout all of these, and at least once, Kyon thinks better of engaging her and decides not to talk to her for a week, but Kyon doesn't really explain why he keeps talking to her.  We can only infer his feelings on the matter.  I think he must find her fascinating, or at least interesting, and since as yet Haruhi hasn't put him through the ringer with her level of energy, it allows Kyon's natural curiosity and actual interest in paranormal things (even if he thinks they're too wild and fantastical to actually exist) to come out.  Of course, this really cuts at Kyon's own dichotomy--the balance between a part of him that likes to take things at his own pace and another that enjoys being pushed beyond his usual boundaries.

Now, how does Haruhi respond to these conversations?  Until the idea for the brigade pops into her mind, she doesn't show any outward enjoyment from talking to Kyon, but clearly these conversations have an effect on her.  Midway through, she clearly makes the connection that he reminds her of John Smith, yet that doesn't convince her to open up.  I take from this that Kyon has reminded her of John, that at some point she must've started to find Kyon interesting for his persistence, or at least, she put weight in what he was saying.  You could argue that Haruhi cuts her hair because she no longer feels unique and mysterious when someone else can recognize the pattern, and that would make sense to me, but I think the sentiment cuts both ways.  She may feel less unique and interesting, but I think it also helps convince her that Kyon is unique and interesting, at least to some small extent.  That she continues to entertain Kyon's conversations yet still shows no enjoyment until her breakthrough with the idea of the brigade tells me she experiences some level of discomfort and dissonance.  She can't admit to herself that she finds Kyon intriguing, or she dismisses him as a shallow reminder of John Smith, nothing more.

Why should she find Kyon intriguing?  His persistence, for one thing.  He pushes to make contact with her even when she gives him no outward signs of connecting with him (at least, other than allowing those conversations to continue).  I think Haruhi can sense that Kyon is genuinely interested in things outside the scope of his normal life, even though he expresses skepticism that they exist, for he doesn't speak of them in a dismissive tone but rather in an honest hypothetical way.

That's all from just a bit of chapter one in Melancholy.  When I think of the series in a broad manner, I think my interpretations are going to be a bit more suspect or vulnerable to errors, but here's what I think:  I feel that, while Kyon is less overt about his support than Koizumi, Haruhi puts more weight on it because it's scarcer and more sincere.  One thing Kyon won't do is mindlessly follow Haruhi.  I think while Haruhi must enjoy the blanket support Koizumi gives, only Kyon's support has real significance to her.  Look at "The Day of Saggitarius":  when Haruhi offers up Asahina or Nagato to the Computer Club as part of the wager, Kyon snarks that she should offer herself instead, and though she shoots down this idea verbally, she relents and puts herself on the table instead if the President so desires.  At least in this instance, she can't go through with a plan without having addressed and attempted to assuage a concern of Kyon's.  She must respect his opinion to do that.

So those are two big components, in my mind, that govern Haruhi's attraction to Kyon.  He can think for himself and exhibit interest in unusual things, but unlike the others in the brigade, he resists Haruhi's gravitational pull enough to object when he has a genuine misgiving or concern about something Haruhi is up to.

Even then, I feel like something is missing.  Consider, for a moment, the baseball game story she tells Kyon.  What is her purpose in doing that?  She seems very troubled when Kyon asks her if he can just go home.  I think Haruhi must've hoped Kyon would react the same way she had--disappointed that nothing regarding Asakura went anywhere.  Telling that story is a way for her to see if she can make a real connection with him.  I've seen arguments suggesting that Haruhi thought people were absolutely boring at that point, and maybe that was overwhelmingly true, but Kyon must be an exception.  She's looking for someone to share her melancholy with here, something Kyon couldn't have grasped the magnitude of beforehand, but nevertheless, Haruhi must've believed Kyon was capable of handling that admission--or, at the very least, she wanted him to so much that it overrode any misgivings she might've had about opening up so much.

In short, Kyon had the persistence and open-mindedness to make Haruhi see him as someone a cut above normal people. Maybe not truly extraordinary, but the next best thing--someone enough like her to understand her melancholy and possibly share in it.  Yes, Haruhi often times tells Kyon that he should be excited about X, Y, or Z when he's not showing nearly enough for her taste.  I think Haruhi does this because she feels like if Kyon can get pumped up about something, it validates her efforts and makes her excitement more justified and real.  This is similar to a theory I put forth in The Coin, though much more grounded in the text, I think.

[Brian]

Well, nothing much original left for me to offer, then.  I mostly agree with Halbarad, and outlined some further details in Sympathy.

My perception is that Haruhi knows she almost always gets what she wants, and likes Kyon because he resists; more than anything else she's accomplished, the connection she makes with Kyon is something she has to put effort into.  Haruhi pretty much half-asses everything she does -- and it comes out awesome anyway (or good enough to satisfy her).  While she does have the perks of her power's fringe benefits to get her through and give her an advantage, Kyon frequently notes that some of what she tries isn't that original or likely to be effective (the prayer she uses for the 'exorcism', for example).

Kyon also catches things Haruhi misses, like pointing out a holiday she forgot that the Brigade should celebrate.

Kyon being contrary to her, willing to be her friend (on his own terms) -- that makes her connection with Kyon the most important thing to her, because it's the thing she's actually had to work hardest toward.  It's one of the few things she's had to put her utmost effort into and genuinely earned.  And I think some part of Haruhi is aware of how easily things come to her, and realizes how precious that makes her connection to him.

I think what Haruhi wants isn't another fawning and devoted fan like Koizumi or (presumably) any of the guys she dated in middle school.  Instead, she wants someone who is an equal to her -- someone she can respect.

Because even though Kyon does pay attention to her, I see the baseball story and the events at the end of Melancholy as attempts to push Kyon away, or give herself justification to dismiss him.  Kyon not saying anything at all after her story was what Haruhi wanted; him trying to comfort or offer consolation would be cliche and expected.  Him stopping and actually thinking about it demonstrated that he wasn't purely shallow--  The day she spends in increasingly skimpy outfits are her trying to prove to herself that he's just a letch who thinks she's attractive so she can feel validated in ignoring him -- but he's not completely caught up in what she looks like.

Yeah, there's the part with Mikuru there, too, and I don't think Haruhi is above setting up such a 'test' for Kyon and feeling jealous when she got her expected results.  The point was that Kyon responds to how she acts, as he always has, and that reaches her like nothing else.  When she has the dream that night she realizes what she wants, and how important to her he really is (like Ryouko's plan to kill him didn't already tell us that).

That's my view on things, anyway.


Edit: And before I forget, thanks greatly for the contributions.

[Grahf]

Aside from the things that were already mentioned I think part of the initial attraction (attraction might be too strong a word but nothing better comes to mind at the moment) is that they each saw in the other what they could have easily been themselves. Kyon's opening narration gives that air of cynicism, but it's pretty clear that he's still enamoured with the strange.

Likewise although Haruhi would probably never admit it I think that at the very least a small part of her probably admires the fact that Kyon can be happy with normalcy and the mundane -- granted it only really appears like that on the surface most of the time, although Kyon does admit that he cares more for the times when there's no supernatural threat and the Brigade can just be together as friends -- and she wants to maybe have a taste of that without giving up her own eccentricity.

I think it speaks volumes that Haruhi is hard on Kyon, but seemingly with a specific purpose: motivation. She must see something in him, whether it's the echoes of John Smith, reflections of certain aspects of herself, or just something amazing that Kyon perhaps can't even see himself. If she didn't care about him then motivating him wouldn't be important; he'd just be another random, normal, and above all boring person to her. His inadvertent idea of starting a club (albeit tempered with the "why can't you just settle for less" speech) probably proved to her that he's capable of great things, just that he needs a shift kick in the ass and the right circumstances for it.

[Brian]

There's a thought that we had kicked around in the idea thread a bit about Yasumi being an avatar for Haruhi's powers and going against what Haruhi actually wanted.

While going through some older messages and discussions on Haruhi (the series), I did have a realization along that line regarding Haruhi (the character) that could potentially make her much more sympathetic.

We tend to regard Haruhi's powers as just an aspect of her character, with varying interpretations about what that means.  It only occurred to me on reflection, but considering Haruhi's own ignorance to her powers, the fact that she has them could let her be viewed sympathetically.  Because her powers are used without her will (or even knowledge, despite the subtle hints that we may put into fanfiction), they could actually be regarded as mildly antagonistic -- possibly even malevolent.  In terms of responsibility, and not even invoking Yasumi, the premise of this is fairly simple:

It's possible to view Haruhi's power as basically a separate, much more primal and chaotic character -- one practically attached to her like an unwanted parasite.

Considering things, it could be possible to view Haruhi as actually a victim of the powers she doesn't even know about (and never asked for -- at least in that capacity).  She can't even enjoy directing a movie and writing her own story, because if she gets caught up in it enough, her power (like a well-intentioned extremist/stalker, or just an entity that cannot understand the human factor) starts making changes that prompt the friends she does have to make her town it down.  Her friends can't tell her the truth because who knows what would happen, then?

So she's denied a chance to face the difficulties most would encounter and overcome them on her own terms -- her power just sweeps most of them away.  The only people who can oppose her or cause her difficulty are her friends, who seem to be afforded some level of protection from the power.  Without the opportunity to face the same kind of adversity everyone else does, her emotional growth is mildly stunted--

I may be over-portraying it a bit here, but that's due to a personal issue.  As someone with DID I must be capable of accepting all responsibility for things that I can be responsible for, even if it's what someone else would perceive as subconscious.  But Haruhi is not the same way, so it's not reasonable for me to feel she should be responsible for everything her power does (to keep this from digressing too far).

...ideas for more stories, few of them happy....

Anyway.  This take let me look at some previously written fanfics that I'd had to wrestle with and see that Haruhi could still be sympathetic in them, despite what her power has done.  Really, I guess what I'm asking is, if this was intensely obvious to others and I'm just now getting it.  Thoughts?

[Muphrid]

To me, this all gets at the central question of how responsible Haruhi is for what her powers end up doing, and I've never had a good answer for that.  On the one hand, the powers seem to act as an extension of her desires, but people desire a lot of things without explicitly making the choice to act on them.  Even in the most extreme case of a person having impulses they cannot control, it depends on whether they have the ability and capacity to avoid situations that would trigger those impulses, knowing what might result, versus no real ability to mitigate them at all.  Haruhi has no knowledge of what her impulses may result in on a conscious level, so I can't feel like she has that capacity to avoid situations.  I like to think that if she did know, she would try to avoid those situations, but we can't know that for sure.

The big question, as I see it is this: if Haruhi's powers really do reflect her own wishes and desires, do they also reflect her intent to carry out those desires?

I guess I would answer that as follows:  we all know Haruhi grew dissatisfied and created a world at the end of Melancholy, presumably to replace the old world with one she thought more interesting.  As a conscious choice, this would be questionable at best and worthy of condemnation at worst.  But to me, because she doesn't even know about her powers, I can't view this so harshly.  It's not like she knows about her powers--powers she can't consciously control--and disregards all sensible precautions to keep from getting into that situation or mindset.

Then again, perhaps I see things this way because if I believed Haruhi could have accepted, even on a "subconscious" level, the idea of remaking the world regardless of consequences, then I don't know what to make of the character.  And on the other hand, Kyon makes a big deal about trusting that Haruhi would not, for example, murder someone for her own amusement.  He seems to believe that her powers are an expression of her subconscious will.  If Haruhi couldn't really be blamed for anything she does with her powers, then would that trust be necessary at all?

I suppose that I might try to find a middle ground.  What Haruhi's powers do can be used to infer her state of mind and to judge her by her thoughts, but perhaps we should forgive her for anything she does that lies clearly outside the capabilities of a normal human being.  She could, as a normal person, kill another for amusement, and we and Kyon could properly judge her for it, but she couldn't create a new world or make a contact lens start firing laser beams or monofilaments.  Such acts could be said to lie outside her capacity to make any kind of choice or exercise restraint.

...maybe.  I find this incredibly messy to think about.

Certainly if Haruhi's powers actively betray her intentions--to a certain limit that protects the brigade, at least--then everything becomes a lot cleaner.  I dare say it ties everything up in perhaps too neat a bow.  It turns the powers into a malevolent force, personified by Yasumi even, that casts a pall on everything and demands to be confronted.  Whereas if the powers do obey Haruhi's will, then as she grows they become less of a threat.  It all depends on whether the powers end up leading to bad things that we want to excuse Haruhi from, I guess.

[Brian]

The view I'm contemplating is that Haruhi and her powers are effectively separate characters, thanks to her lack of awareness of them.  My thinking is that Kyon trusts that Haruhi's subconscious desires will be reigned in by (specifically) the agreement and understanding that they come to at the end of Melancholy.  Kyon told her that the world was more amazing than she thought, and she should wait to see (more or less).

And from that point, Haruhi extends her trust to Kyon (even in a dream) that if she stays the course, she'll find what she's looking for -- and he returns it, believing that she'll curb things before they get out of hand because one of the desires that the power acts on is the desire to keep to that agreement.


Hmm.  As far as the whole 'replace the old world,' maybe I'm just a softie at heart, but I like to think that Koizumi was being melodramatic and in a worst-case scenario, the old world wouldn't have been destroyed, and that Haruhi and Kyon would have just gone on to another one.  Perhaps this is too optimistic, but I like to think that Kyon's right to trust that Haruhi wouldn't have erased/rewritten all of those people.  (That kind of reduces it from 'reality-cide' to 'interdimensional kidnapping', but....)

I think I'm just trying to find the most positive interpretation all around.

[JonBob]

I was going to make some analogy about everybody being an object in Haruhi's dream, but that kinda fell apart quickly. Ultimately, I think that there are 3 parts to Haruhi and her powers: subconscious powers, subconscious awareness of powers and keeping them in check, and outward Haruhi. (Id, ego, superego?)

The subconscious powers are what everyone is afraid of, the ones that changes the world on a whim or even wants to remake it and is fueled by raw emotions. The subconscious awareness would probably be Yasumi and is the part of her that keeps her friends safe and also tries to keep the power under check. In certain situations it can control the powers, in others the powers run free.

As to who's actually responsible over their usage, I really couldn't say. Raw impulses are hard to control, especially if you aren't aware of them. I'd say that until she's aware of the powers, she isn't responsible-responsible, but still a little responsible. If stuff keeps happening without her being aware, the people around her become responsible. If she becomes informed, then she becomes responsible.