Thief trailer and discussion

[Brian]

My impression is that they're probably going to make it as DE:HR-like as possible.

That seems to be the way things go these days; studio finds successful formula, sticks with it.

While I was never big on thief, because it had what I felt were some issues (most notably, how guards always knew that your footsteps were the sounds a criminal makes when you go through crowded city streets and the undead-not-thiefy-bits), it had an interesting story.  Watched a friend beat the last game, played some of the first.

Felt like I got most of the story from that.

That being said, if they do make the Thief reboot very DE:HR-like, I'd buy it.

If you're looking for a game with visual filters that add to it, try Batman: Arkham City or Asylum (which were both enjoyable, IMO).  There, the detective mode is really nice; objects are blue, points of interest are various bright colors.  Pretty well one.

[KLSymph]

My impression is that they're probably going to make it as DE:HR-like as possible. That seems to be the way things go these days; studio finds successful formula, sticks with it.

Then clearly that EXP is going to buy Garrett some Praxis kits.

While I was never big on thief, because it had what I felt were some issues (most notably, how guards always knew that your footsteps were the sounds a criminal makes when you go through crowded city streets

Oh yes. Fun fact: multiple guards can randomly walk around on metal grating near an industrial boiler so loud you can barely hear their footfalls over the noise, but if you make the slightest clink on the same grating, they will all hear it and somehow identify it as not one of their own.  Over the years I've become far more paranoid about high ambient noise than I am about bright light.

That being said, if they do make the Thief reboot very DE:HR-like, I'd buy it.

What if they put in some HR-style boss fights?

If you're looking for a game with visual filters that add to it, try Batman: Arkham City or Asylum (which were both enjoyable, IMO).

Hmm. I must look into that.

[Brian]

What if they put in some HR-style boss fights?

I didn't love those fights, but only the first one bothered me significantly (the gimmick was very difficult).  However, two things to keep in mind:

A.) the fights were outsourced to another studio.

B.) they admitted it was bad design, so are unlikely to make that particular mistake again (edit: Their DLC introduced a new boss, and gave you options to get around it without killing it).

[KLSymph]

Well, I rest easy knowing that there's no news of Thief dev troubles that may cause the company to outsource work or make sloppy design decisions.

*whimpers*

[Kaldrak]

Alright. Game just came out. What do you think KL? Have you had a chance to try it yet?

The current metascore for the game is kind of a bad sign. Sorry for the necro post but I didn't see another thread on this anywhere.

RANT MODE ON

To add my two cents to this discussion, I would say that it seems like the devs for the current Thief game have pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the series. Yep, nothing like a bland medieval city with an evil baron and some boring looking cult moving in the background while the populous rises up against the baron's oppression. Ho hum...generic genericness of genericocity. This sort of storytelling isn't exactly terrible...but it sure isn't that good either.

It pushes no boundaries, and doesn't even TRY to bring back any of the elements we loved from the first games, but hey, the eternal loner Garrett now gets a bloodthirsty apprentice that he drops to her death so he can angst about her for most of the game so that's neat, right? /sarcasm

Oh and words fail me about Garrett. How could they have gotten his character so wrong? It's like they said, "Hey, old Garrett was boring, so lets make him a thrill seeking master thief now who steals for the sheer joy of taking stuff." That could work I guess, but it's really a bastardization of his character and I shudder at the "reluctant hero" bits.

Garrett is NOT a hero. He did what he did in the first two games because it was a matter of survival and because certain people crossed him. He was a cynical, money-driven professional who always tried to get the job done with a minimal amount of mess, because that was how he liked to roll. I don't even LIKE this concept for the new version of him. It seems like teen fantasy Garrett, though as I haven't played the game yet and can only go by the various trailers and gameplay videos I've seen, I will admit that I could be mistaken.

Who trained him anyway? If all of the old factions in this alternate universe are gone, then there are no Keepers and if there are no Keepers, then Garrett would likely have starved to death on the streets as a child. They took what he was and refined it until his skills were arguably greater then their own. A Garrett without the Keepers is kind of like Luke Skywalker without Obi-Wan. Have fun on the moisture farm Luke, cause you aint ever leaving.

Storytelling aside, the gameplay mechanics look decent enough. Scripted takedowns look amusing and the climbing mechanic looks useful...but I'm pretty sure that's context sensitive so you can't climb all over stuff and I've heard not good things about the level design. Oh, and the game looks too bright. Maybe I'm just way too used to how dark the first game was. And no more jumping for Garrett. Now it's all about the slide.

Also, some people have complained that the arrows in his bow no longer obey the laws of gravity and just shoot in a straight line without falling. I don't know whether this is true, but if it is it makes me wonder what in the name of hell is wrong with a game development studio that they can't get that right in a THIEF game. Why does a game from 1998 have more realistic physics then a game from 2014? That shit be whack, yo.

Other people were also complaining about how your shots are context sensitive. Apparently the game wont allow you to waste arrows shooting at nothing, so...more hand holding. Woot?

From all of the reviews I've read and from everything I've seen, this version of Thief appears to be a watered down, dumbed down experience by and large and it makes me think that no one on the dev team actually played the first two games. Maybe someone just handed them a brief synopsis of what they were about and said, "Here. Do with this what you will."

I will try and muster some bit of positiveness from this perversion of one of the great things from my childhood...that line they show at the end of all the trailers. "What's yours is mine." Yeah, that's neat.

RANT MODE OFF

[KLSymph]

Alright. Game just came out. What do you think KL? Have you had a chance to try it yet?

Not yet.  And with the reviews that have come out, I don't know if I want to buy it or if I just want to watch a Let's Play of it.  The whole thing sounds like it follows Deadly Shadows and not the first two games, design-wise.

To add my two cents to this discussion, I would say that it seems like the devs for the current Thief game have pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the series. Yep, nothing like a bland medieval city with an evil baron and some boring looking cult moving in the background while the populous rises up against the baron's oppression. Ho hum...generic genericness of genericocity. This sort of storytelling isn't exactly terrible...but it sure isn't that good either.

To be fair, that's not much different from the other games.  I don't love Thief for the incredibly original storylines, but rather the immersion.  I just need vaguely competent storytelling to justify the levels I play.

It pushes no boundaries, and doesn't even TRY to bring back any of the elements we loved from the first games, but hey, the eternal loner Garrett now gets a bloodthirsty apprentice that he drops to her death so he can angst about her for most of the game so that's neat, right? /sarcasm

I honestly can't even imagine how Garrett would interact with a girl, given his known personality.

*remembers Viktoria relationship*

That sure adds nothing.

Storytelling aside, the gameplay mechanics look decent enough. Scripted takedowns look amusing and the climbing mechanic looks useful...but I'm pretty sure that's context sensitive so you can't climb all over stuff and I've heard not good things about the level design.

Yeah, I've heard some bad stuff about the level design.  Especially the loading screens and level sizes.  Sigh.  Also, it's kinda linear, and uses too many one-way doors.  I didn't think I'd ever see a Thief game accused of having too many one-way doors.

And no more jumping for Garrett. Now it's all about the slide.

I imagined that the slide would be a strategic maneuver that was highly visible and risky, but would let you exploit a momentary lapse in an enemy's line of sight to dart to a different position.  When I first read a review that said the slide was basically a horizontal-only version of Dishonored's Blink, and saw a video where Garrett slid by two guards in mid-light conditions without being seen, I nearly coughed blood.

Other people were also complaining about how your shots are context sensitive. Apparently the game wont allow you to waste arrows shooting at nothing, so...more hand holding. Woot?

Ha ha ha, such an abomination can't possibly exist, Builder be praised.  It would be like restricting leaning to only context-sensitive surfaces.  It would be like naming your heavy-set fence character Basso instead of Cutty.

From all of the reviews I've read and from everything I've seen, this version of Thief appears to be a watered down, dumbed down experience by and large and it makes me think that no one on the dev team actually played the first two games. Maybe someone just handed them a brief synopsis of what they were about and said, "Here. Do with this what you will."

I think it's less about that and more about Thief not ever being possible to deliver on consoles.  If this game comes with a level editor for PC and the community starts making fanmissions, I'll probably get the game, otherwise I'll probably buy it used or when the price comes down.

[KLSymph]

I watched an LP of the prologue, and the LPer spend a few minutes trying to figure out why he couldn't shoot during the water arrow tutorial, so I can confirm that the bow is indeed context-sensitive.

So much of what I hear about the game makes me ask, "How did you even come up with an idea that terrible?"

Edit: Watched some more of the prologue, and the water arrows can also be shot without context.  Don't know if it was a tutorial thing.

Issue: This is what lightning looks like in the game. It just cranks up the brightness for a split second. In the real world, lightning comes from the sky and stuff like buildings cast stark shadows. This would be a minor problem in any other game, but Thief is all about using shadows to hide. I kept positioning myself in what I thought would be shadows, only to have the magical wall-penetrating light illuminate me in front of the guards. (link)

That is just wow.

But hey, as long as this game doesn't reach the level of my personal worst encountered Thief-franchise bug, I can still spend some money on it, eventually.

What is the worst Thief bug KLSymph has ever encountered?: ShowHide

This is a transient bug in Thief: Deadly Shadows.  In Deadly Shadows, the following two gameplay issues exist:

1.  As I've mentioned in my review of the game, jumping interacts poorly with some types of uneven floor terrain.  If Garrett is standing on irregular level geometry, he can become unable to jump.  My example of this is an instance of standing on unevenly arranged planks (part of a dilapidated rooftop or broken floor), such that a gap between two of those planks got me stuck and unable to walk away or jump out, requiring me to reload.

2.  Garrett is able to pickpocket bags of coins from pedestrians.  He has to approach the victim quite closely to highlight the bag for snatching, noticeably closer than he has to approach to grab normal loot items in the environment.  On occasion, this distance is finicky, sometimes more, sometimes less.

What do you think is the dumbest possible way for these two system traits to interact?

[spoiler]The shortened reach distance for bags of gold should represent additional difficulty in pickpocketing, but the actual property of reach distance is attached to the bag, not to whoever is carrying it.  This means that if you first knock out a bag holder, which causes him to drop his possessions as he collapses, then in order to grab the bag, you will usually have to approach the bag on the ground, center it in view, and crouch in order to get the right distance.  Moreover, there are many bags of gold in the game which have this shortened-reach property despite never being carried by anyone, so a bag of gold lying in a room may require you to get very close to it to grab it, while other nearby treasures do not.

In the late-game mission Killing Time, which occurs inside the Stonemarket Clocktower, there is an office with a wooden chest holding a bag of coins and a potion.  Chests in the level are large, waist-high and arm-span long containers.  One day, for whatever reason, the game spawned the bag of loot inside the chest in such a way that I could not approach close enough to grab it (since the chest is waist-high, crouching broke the line-of-sight).  Because Garrett, master thief, was unable to reach far enough into the chest to grab the bag of gold, I had him jump onto the chest itself so that he could crouch above the bag.

At which point I discovered that Garrett, master thief, was now stuck on irregular level geometry, floating inside the chest in a mid-step animation that disabled any jumps, meaning that I could not unwedge him from a wooden chest smaller than most bathtubs are you kidding me.

[/spoiler]

As long as it's better than that.

[Kaldrak]

It's nice to find a fellow Thief fan. ^_^

Though I have to admit, you're making me not want to try Deadly Shadows. I've had the game on steam for a while, but I haven't tried it yet.

I read your review page on it. Is it even worth playing?

One of the main things I remember that killed me on more then one occasion in the original was the fact that if you were trying to climb on a rope arrow and said rope was too close to the wall, then you couldn't simply grab it, oh no. You had to jump on it and half the time you did that there was an invisible force field around the rope which repelled you away from it instead of letting you grab hold.

This was annoying and inconvenient, but sometimes much worse, oh say, like in the end of The Lost City mission (the actual one, not the one that ends when you find the haunted cathedral) where I was trying to climb up that ridiculously high tower to grab the fire talisman. I crept out onto this tiny ledge, shot a rope arrow a good twenty feet above me into an even smaller section of wood at the top of the tower and tried to jump onto/climb the rope. Garrett's terrified shriek rang in my ears as we fell to our death hundreds of feet bellow after being bounced off the rope like someone had applied Portal 2's blue goop on it and we'd taken a full running start before slamming our face into it at max speed.

One of my more memorable Thief deaths. I think my hands were actually shaking at the time.

[KLSymph]

It's nice to find a fellow Thief fan. ^_^

Likewise!

Though I have to admit, you're making me not want to try Deadly Shadows. I've had the game on steam for a while, but I haven't tried it yet. I read your review page on it. Is it even worth playing?

It is worth playing on its own merits, yes.  Some parts of it are weirdly changed from T1/Gold/2, but it is still Thief, and you should play it at least once.

One of the main things I remember that killed me on more then one occasion in the original was the fact that if you were trying to climb on a rope arrow and said rope was too close to the wall, then you couldn't simply grab it, oh no. You had to jump on it and half the time you did that there was an invisible force field around the rope which repelled you away from it instead of letting you grab hold.

Ah, Thief rope physics.  Luckily, you don't have to worry about ropes in Deadly Shadows, where they took those out and gave you climbing claws.

This was annoying and inconvenient, but sometimes much worse, oh say, like in the end of The Lost City mission (the actual one, not the one that ends when you find the haunted cathedral)

That's the Haunted Cathedral mission (and the Return to the Cathedral mission).  The Lost City comes after finding the cathedral. </pedantic>

where I was trying to climb up that ridiculously high tower to grab the fire talisman. I crept out onto this tiny ledge, shot a rope arrow a good twenty feet above me into an even smaller section of wood at the top of the tower and tried to jump onto/climb the rope. Garrett's terrified shriek rang in my ears as we fell to our death hundreds of feet bellow after being bounced off the rope like someone had applied Portal 2's blue goop on it and we'd taken a full running start before slamming our face into it at max speed.

Well, you'll love the climbing claws.  Not only will you not bounce off a wall while using them, you can't even jump away from the wall either.  I remember trying to jump from a wall in the Pagans' territory after climbing up through a hole in a ceiling, trying to get onto the ceiling-now-floor once I'm up there... and Garrett just refused to stick or mantle onto the edge, so he kept falling straight through the hole over and over.

One of my more memorable Thief deaths. I think my hands were actually shaking at the time.

Ha, Thief verticality.

*lines up a ladder-to-platform jump in the Horn of Quintus chamber*

*jumping perpendicularly from the ladder goes too far*

"Nooooooooo...." *splat*

You just don't get much of that anymore with all the invisible walls and handholding of modern games.  To this day I am strangely proud of becoming able to consistently get on Thief ladders from the top without falling to my death.  None of that "press a context-sensitive button to get on a ladder" nonsense.  You walk onto that ladder and if you did it with the wrong speed, or angle, or the engine hates you, you suddenly have an intimate relationship with the ground ten meters below, and an equally intimate relationship with the quickload key.  I'm pretty sure I'm better with Thief ladders than I am with real ones.

My most memorable Thief-classic death shall always be on the Return to the Cathedral broken stairs, from Sudden Heart Attack Syndrome.  If you know what that is, you know how horrible it feels happening to you.

[Iron Dragoon]

Thief was one of my favorite games. Stealthy games are my single favorite genre, personally. It makes me sad inside to hear bad things about the new one. Hopefully there'll be a community mod pack or something that'll fix most of it.

On a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

[KLSymph]

*checks TTLG level editor forum*

Nope, still no news about a T4 level editor.

Sigh.

Oh look, they're still doing the Dark Mod.  Too bad I never cared about Doom 3...

Wait, the Dark Mod is standalone now?

And free.

!!!

Somebody download this, play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

[Kaldrak]

That's the Haunted Cathedral mission (and the Return to the Cathedral mission).  The Lost City comes after finding the cathedral. </pedantic>

Yes but I could have sworn that they named that mission "The Lost City" in the non Thief Gold version of the game. I could easily be mistaken as it's been years since I've played it.

Ha, Thief verticality.

*lines up a ladder-to-platform jump in the Horn of Quintus chamber*

*jumping perpendicularly from the ladder goes too far*

"Nooooooooo...." *splat*

Oh man...that brings back so many memories. Beating The Bonehoard mission was one of the crowning achievements of my childhood. This game here was the game that started me on my eternal quest to eradicate the Undead. It was the first survival horror game I ever played, before I even knew what the genre WAS, let alone what it was called.

You just don't get much of that anymore with all the invisible walls and handholding of modern games.  To this day I am strangely proud of becoming able to consistently get on Thief ladders from the top without falling to my death.  None of that "press a context-sensitive button to get on a ladder" nonsense.  You walk onto that ladder and if you did it with the wrong speed, or angle, or the engine hates you, you suddenly have an intimate relationship with the ground ten meters below, and an equally intimate relationship with the quickload key.  I'm pretty sure I'm better with Thief ladders than I am with real ones.

I agree with you about the handholding. So much. So freaking much. It's at the point where it just feels like my intelligence is being insulted every time I start up a new game. Press 'X' to interact with stuff. Oh really? I thought I'd just slam my face into the controller a few times and see what happens. >_<

My most memorable Thief-classic death shall always be on the Return to the Cathedral broken stairs, from Sudden Heart Attack Syndrome.  If you know what that is, you know how horrible it feels happening to you.

I think I know what you're talking about. *shudders*

Somebody download this, play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

Done. I'll let you know what I think.

[Dracos]

*checks TTLG level editor forum*

Nope, still no news about a T4 level editor.

Sigh.

Oh look, they're still doing the Dark Mod.  Too bad I never cared about Doom 3...

Wait, the Dark Mod is standalone now?

And free.

!!!

Somebody download this, play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

It's an unreal game.  I'd think that'd make it more moddable, but honestly, don't know.

[KLSymph]

On a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

Yeah, seriously.  Why the eyeliner?  Does Garrett want to emphasize his eyelashes?  I can barely accept the new mask-over-the-mouth based on the logic of staying unidentifiable when you're seen, but then you put on that stuff.

Yes but I could have sworn that they named that mission "The Lost City" in the non Thief Gold version of the game.

The Lost City is the place and the level with all the lava and fire elementals.  The "lost city" with the hammer cathedral is the sealed section of the Old Quarter.  It's certainly a lost part of the city, but not named that.  Hooray for abstract naming.  You're lucky you get "the Hammers" instead of "the Priests" (compare "the Pagans").

I agree with you about the handholding. So much. So freaking much. It's at the point where it just feels like my intelligence is being insulted every time I start up a new game. Press 'X' to interact with stuff. Oh really? I thought I'd just slam my face into the controller a few times and see what happens. >_<

The biggest problem I have with the handholding is that it takes away from having a selection of solid core mechanics which you can exploit to make inventive solutions, and replaces that with a more limited set of actions the developer thinks of and codes directly into the game.  For a very cinematic game, that would be fine, but a game like Thief benefits more from mechanical interactions.  For example, if you make jumping completely context-dependent, how can the player indulge in the sublime art of crate-stacking?

Also, some people have complained that the arrows in his bow no longer obey the laws of gravity and just shoot in a straight line without falling. I don't know whether this is true, but if it is it makes me wonder what in the name of hell is wrong with a game development studio that they can't get that right in a THIEF game. Why does a game from 1998 have more realistic physics then a game from 2014?

Looking back on this point, I am far more offended that they went even farther than Deadly Shadows and have Garrett hold the bow horizontally.  In T1/T2, Garret holds his bow vertically, as if he's a person who's ever used a regular bow.  In T3, he held it in a weird 45-degree angle.  In T4, he goes a full five-degrees from horizontal.  Given the humongous deflex (bow curvature towards the user) already built into the new bow shape, he'd be able to draw like three inches from rest holding it that way.  It's so dumb.

[Kaldrak]

On a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

Yeah, seriously.  Why the eyeliner?  Does Garrett want to emphasize his eyelashes?  I can barely accept the new mask-over-the-mouth based on the logic of staying unidentifiable when you're seen, but then you put on that stuff.

Eh, like I said. Teen Fantasy Garrett. I suppose we should be glad no one added sparkles to his character design....

Looking back on this point, I am far more offended that they went even farther than Deadly Shadows and have Garrett hold the bow horizontally.  In T1/T2, Garret holds his bow vertically, as if he's a person who's ever used a regular bow.  In T3, he held it in a weird 45-degree angle.  In T4, he goes a full five-degrees from horizontal.  Given the humongous deflex (bow curvature towards the user) already built into the new bow shape, he'd be able to draw like three inches from rest holding it that way.  It's so dumb.

Bow physics have been a pet peeve of mine since I originally played Thief. Actually, having had archery lessons in the past, I have a pretty good idea of how one draws and fires a bow properly. The best I can manage to do is force myself to actively ignore bow and arrow physics in most games....

For example, the latest Tomb Raider (sorry Drac).

Insta-arrows that hit their targets almost as fast if not just as fast as bullets that defy gravity and having the character holding the bow horizontally are regular occurrences. Not only do you not get enough force for a shot worth beans that way, but if they'd kept Lara's original bust size she wouldn't have been able to use it properly at all. Think about how an archer holds a bow and draws the bowstring back against their body, now try to imagine what happens to a busty woman if they attempt to use it that way.

*ouch*

I appreciate it when game devs take the time to implement these things in a manner that doesn't hurt my willing suspension of disbelief every time I use the weapon, though I suppose most gamers would be like 'eh, who cares'? You can sacrifice accuracy for ease of playability, but I LIKE the challenge of accurately aiming a bow that has arrows that will fall short of their targets if they're far enough away. Bows are not guns and should not be an easy replacement for them. The way the latest Thief game treats Garrett's bow feels like utter contempt for the players and the game itself though it's probably not intentional.