Disadvantages: Good or Evil?

[Edward]

Consider an example:  Two characters, both spellcasters, one of whom has a character concept that calls for having only one arm.  In a system with Disadvantages, this character will certainly get points from this, which he can spend on spellcasting abilities.  And then... all other things being equal, the healthy caster can never be as good at magic as the caster with one arm.

By the same reasoning, a mage who spent points on Health or Dexterity can never be as powerful as one who spent those points on Intellegence or more spells.

Again, it's tradeoffs.  The one armed mage can't use a shield, or a bow, or a staff.  He can't cast spells (or fight) while climbing a rope or a cliff face.  In a higher tech setting, he can't use a rifle and it takes him forever to reload a gun.  If someone is looking for the one armed mage, he stands out a lot more as well.

Sure, he's better at casting spells, but he's not more powerful.

In a nutshell, a disadvantages point system heavily penalizes players who want to play characters without disadvantages (or with very few of them).

This has not been my experience, though I cannot speak for everyone.

Look at it the other way around - if the system gives you 30 points to spend, and you can get 30 more from disadvantages, the real base is 60 points,

You scale is somewhat off.  No system I recall allows taking as many points in disadvantages as the base starting points, most don't even allow half that.

And as I pointed out before, taking disadvantages equal to the base points (as one GM allowed) resulted in slightly tougher characters who died regularly, pulled down by the weight of their disdvantages.

Course, the real question is what to do about this.  I've yet to run a game in a point-based system myself

Have you at least played in one?

but if I did... I'd probably just not give points for disadvantages, period.  Encourage the players to take ones that fit their character concept, but don't give them anything extra stat-wise for it.

Don't be surprised if none of the experienced roleplayers take any disadvantages, then.

Players tend to get mad when their characters get heavily overshadowed by someone else's, regardless of how many disadvantages the overshadower is packing

My problems with overshadowing all occurred with random character creation or one GM's buddies blantantly cheating on their point totals.

I haven't had that happen in point based systems.  Some of that is the sheer diversity of character types that point based systems allow.

For example, in the Gurps Pulp game I played in, one character started with spells.  That had the potential to overshadow the game because it was an ability none of the rest of us had, nor were likely to ever get.  OTOH, the mage wasn't a dead shot with a rifle or a master of savate, like a couple of the other characters.

Or lets say that other mage know more spells than you.  She probably doesn't know the same spells, there will be things you can do that she cannot.

[Brian]

Hmm.  Edward pretty much made all the points I would have.

Beaten to the punch again. O_O

[Bjorn]

Consider an example:  Two characters, both spellcasters, one of whom has a character concept that calls for having only one arm.  In a system with Disadvantages, this character will certainly get points from this, which he can spend on spellcasting abilities.  And then... all other things being equal, the healthy caster can never be as good at magic as the caster with one arm.  While this might make sense from a pure game balance perspective, it's just absurd when looking at character creation and advancement.

To argue against myself here (not that I am, really, since that implies I have a particular position, rather than just a desire to discuss and debate):

It's not absurd.  It makes perfect sense.  Or, at least, it could.  After all, he's only got one arm, it's not like a lot of other career options were open to him.  Why wouldn't he devote his life to magic, with a seriousness beyond most others?

That's one of the reasons I've growing fonder of the idea of "character base first, disadvantages afterwards."  It allows for the GM to insist that points be spent in a manner consistent with the Disadvantage and the charater background.

As for overshadowing -- I have had it happen to me in point-based systems, but I'm hestitant to chalk those experiences up to Disadvantages.  A much bigger factor, in my experience, is rules familiarity.

[Edward]

Beaten to the punch again. O_O

Heh.  I've played a one-armed character, so I know the disadvantage.

Though it did give one unexpected advantage.  It's rather difficult to tie a cravat one-handed, which gave my PC the perfect opportunity to ask the attractive young lady for assistance.  :)

[Brian]

*applause*

It's all in how you play your character (in which case, disads can help define your character).

[Celisasu]

I've never really hit the problem of disadvantages either.  My main exposure to them has been with White Wolf but it only allows 7 points of disadvantages.   Since at best that's one bonus attribute dot plus a skill dot or a single extra gift/discipline/etc there's not a lot of abuse that can go on.  And of course you dissallow disadvantages that aren't really disadvantages.

[Dracos]

Well, in my experience it's not the disads that aren't disads you disallow in whitewolf games but the morass of disads that basically are "Kill me in 5 days.  Write the entire campaign around my death.  Etc."

I don't know why they wrote up quite so many of those.  Sure, it might be nice, but how often is anyone going to roll up a character and attach 'dying in hours' to him.

Dracos

[Brian]

In White Wolf (at least, in WoD), there's only one of those flaws, Drac.  It's called 'Dark Fate'.  It goes from 1 to 5 points, and has (unlike almost every other flaw) bold text on it that says, "YOUR GM MUST APPROVE THIS FLAW".  The closest thing to Dark Fate that is not Dark Fate is not in the WoD, it's part of Exalted (but then, the system itself already has the, "Never actually let any game started go anywhere" flaw, which renders this moot), and called, "Dying".  It's also got bold text on it that says, "THIS FLAW IS INNAPROPRIATE FOR A LONG-TERM CAMPAIGN."

Don't beat up on WW so much, especially since you haven't played it that much.  WW fails less on flaws, and more on unbalanced merits.

[Dracos]

Yeah, I'm being unfair.  I admit it.

Though I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the merits as I don't recall reading any that were too nutsy.  But then, it's been ages since I cracked open a WoD book and several months since I glanced at a list of exalted merits.

Dracos

[Brian]

Sure.  But let's not derail this thread.

Merit discussion thread here.

[Huitzil]

I'm not going to get into the deabte here because other peoiple have said everyting I would say, only better. I would just like to point out a totally alternate way of doing disadvantages that I saw in the (d20) Stargate SG-1 roleplaying game, one that maybe some of you might like and consider adapting to your own use.

It goes like so: Disadvantages cost points, they don't provide any extra ones. They still have deleterious effects on youu character, but all of them have effects that can be described as "episodic" and not a constant burden. Each time your disadvantage comes up in a way that hinders you, you gain bonus XP. So, each time your girlfriend gets kidnapped by aliens and you gotta go save her, or each time some wrikley-ass tribal elder recognizes the crest of Olakun on yoru forehead and refuses to speak with you so you gotta do some detective work to figure out what you know, you get extra experience. It's supposed to be such that the GM has built-in plot hooks that involve the players that he can use in a couple of sessions (the game, like the show, is kind of built on "episodes", and using a flaw in this manner is like having an episode about Teal'C's son being captured by Apophis and brainwashed and then Teal'C has gotta go save his ass), and the fact that you only get a bonus form them when they directly hinder you, instead of having a flaw you can ignore and getting free points from it, discourages mini-maxing with their use. Your mileage may vary, but I thought it was neat.

[Dracos]

How'd it work in the field?  Hold up well?

Dracos