Magic Item Crafting.

[Anastasia]

This is what Rat came up with on the matter. Please read and comment, doubly so if this affects you. My own comments will follow in another post. Good reading.

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Magic Item Creation

i.   Introduction
ii.  Arcane vs. Divine
iii. Campaign Issues
iv.  Blueprints (Arcane)
v.   Inspiration (Divine)
vi.  Notes on components
vii. Attunement


1. Armour, Shields, Weapons
2. Scrolls
3. Potions
4. Wands
5. Staves
6. Other

This guide is really, really vauge. No matter how you tell me to do things myself, Dune, I can't exactly decide costs or particular abilities or anything.

One thing I like about this system is that all the more powerful items are either one-shot things or are aligned/attuned to specific users. This means you can give bad guys all the awesome items you want, and then either we can only use them once, they're not terribly powerful, or they're evil/won't work for us and we may as well destroy them so nobody else can have them, at least without extensive purification work or whatnot. At last, signiature weapons for villians-of-the-week that won't come back to haunt you!

Another thing on magic items is that, since the really good ones are all rare things, we should make them over-the-top awesome looking. Coronos of light, laserbeams, longswords that turn into half-a-foot-wide contraptions that slay by sucking out blood with their thousand terrible tounges, you know. >_>

i. Introduction

Many magic items are scattered throughout the world, found in the hands of everything from craven kobolds, brutish orcs, terrible dragons, fearsome lichs, noble knights, and, most commonly, crafty clerics and mystical mages. Artifacts of all kinds tumble forth from the hands of those who shape the eldricht forces that the common eye cannot see.

But it is no easy process, and any items beyond the least sort- the kind that students of arcane lore have no use for by the time they reach that level- are extraordinary works of craftsmanship, taking anywhere from weeks to years to complete, and frequently requiring all sorts of odd components, bizzare spells, fevered research, and, of course, travel and adventure just to get them done. Indeed, more than a few mages have set out to craft a particular item, only to find one similar to it in their travels.

This system is designed to set out a few general guidelines to how items are crafted. There are *always* exceptions, but it is hopefully far superior to the system already given in the DMG, which requires wizards to be 16th level before they can even think of making items.

ii. Arcane vs. Divine

Items come from two sources; wizards and their derivatives, slaving away in laboratories, researching in their libraries, studying their spellbooks, and generally spending a lot of time indoors. Items built by these men are the result of hours of equations, mathematical loopholes, fluid dynamics, and the like. It is an exact science, and the complexity increases vastly between lesser works and greater- along with the costs.

Meanwhile, divine items are created by the auspices of their god. A certain amount of study is required, but it is more given to philosophy and unexplainable insight than arcane study. However, it is no less demanding- gods channel energy through their clerics and into the items they craft, and if the spirit of the cleric is not pure, or the item not properly sanctified, there is little than can be done.

Both terms are very vauge, and it's possible that there is overlap between them. Divine and Arcane magic are not magics that clash, but rather supplement each other. Though the process of enchanting a divine item is spiritual, the result is one that can be mathematically presented. And there is no denying that arcane might is frequently dependent on spiritual strength.

The point of all this is to remind the reader that there is a distinct difference in means and tone of these items, yet they can both produce equally potent effects. Notably, though, the way to create an arcane item should be the same for all wizards- while clerics will have differing processes depending on their god.

iii. Campaign Issues

The creation of magical items can't be left unchecked, but nor should it be stifled. It needs to be constrained in some fashion to prevent magic becoming commonplace.

Time- Any campaign which runs against a clock can make great use of this element. Sure, it might be possible to craft the God-Slaying Hammer, but if you only have a year before the Dark God-King of Melzaunt appears, then it's going to be hard to spend the five years responsible (or whatever). Forcing people to balance between items and more pressing issues simultaneously gives players the freedom of choice whilst restricting their actions. (i.e. railroad disguise GO)

Space- It's not possible to build an item in some remote forest (unless you are a druid). You need to have a certain area that's got the proper wards and blessings upon it, and without that you'll be in trouble. The problem is how this space is acquired. It may not be an issue to gain access to a laboratory in some games, but in others they may be expensive to build, or hard to find. If players are spending downtime in one of the few places where such items can be crafted, or are heading to such an area, they'll need to estimate what their capabilities will be whilst there and judge creation accordingly.

Money- It's not that fun to insert money, receive item. But money is doubtless required for some effects, and is certainly a viable way- and very visible and obvious one- to restrict creation.

Spells- You can't create an item if you don't have the spells to do it. For clerics, this isn't that much of a problem because they have most of them already- though this does limit the scope of items they can make. For magi, obtaining a particular spell may be just as hard as getting the item required.

The Soul- A craftsman puts a little of himself into every item he makes. For a crafter of magic items, this should be taken literally. No matter the spells he casts, they will gutter out and die without a mortal spirit to hold them in, and thus a magical craftsman may inject part of his spirit into an item. In game terms, this could mean anything from XP drain to literally spilling his blood into the item. It's even possible a mage could put his entire self into something, actually becoming the item he forges.

Obviously, what means are used to prevent item creation running rampant are dependant on the style of game. For an episodic game, money and spells seem more appropriate, because these are the main ways in which the power of a party is made manifest. But for a longer campaign linked by a single plot, time and space are better options- you can't spend a year at a lab, or make detours to the City of Magi when you need to save the world *now*.

Also, a fair bit of the demographics of item generation assume that high level magi are frequently friendless, evil, paranoid, or all three. Certainly, I don't see any reason why many shouldn't be mad.


iv. Blueprints (Arcane)

Any magical items requires some form of blueprint on it's creation. Many already exist, locked away in old books- though a new treatise on the creation of this-and-that is penned every year. Many are common knowledge and easily accessable, while others need to be penned from scratch.

There are essentially three kinds of blueprint that one can acquire.

a) Existing blueprints are in the possession of libraries and mages all over. Frequently used to create items already, existing blueprints are common for lesser items, but those for the construction of greater wonders exist...

b) Existing items can have blueprints derived from them. This is actually possible for divine items, as well, though obviously the arcane caster can't replicate the item the same way the divine caster does. However, these 'divine schematics' are useful for experimentation, or those rare occasions when clerics and mages pool their powers. Sometimes, but not always, crafting complete blueprints of an existing item will necessitate the dissolution of the item. This requires research, though not as costly as the next option...

c) Items that lack blueprints or existing copies must be researched. The crafting of blueprints can require months of study, depending on the power of the item, and possibly prototypes being constructed. The expense and effort involved limits this option to very few magi, and the possibility of a mishap actually exists, here. Luckily, a mage will always know if his item isn't going to work before the final model is constructed (though he may never actually get that far.)

v. Inspiration (Divine)

Divine crafters pray for inspiration direct from their patron. Usually, they are gifted this information after doing some service for their deity, or they are instructed to follow some particular goal for a time. Of course, more secular gods (such as Waukeen, hint hint) can ask for all sorts of odd things in 'trade' for the information. The price the cleric pays may not be attainable, but lesser items are typically negligible, while greater items require all sorts of things.

Once they've got inspiration, they have to actually enchant the item. Ironically, this is generally the easier part of divine crafting; the hard part is gathering the necessary parts, just as with magic items. This version is superior to blueprints in that the more expensive items aren't going to require the dazzling heights of research required. The drawback is that every item crafted requires inspiration- there is no ability to take another cleric's word on how to make a +1 sword, for example. However, once inspiration is gained, it is never forgotten.

Many clerics pray for inspiration on healing potions early in their careers. Strangely, however, gods are more reluctant to grant this information to clerics who channel arcane might as well- why, only they know.

vi. Notes on Components

Exactly what components are is going to vary a lot, which is why I say very little specifically on the matter. Essentially, gathering components can be anything from a formality to an epic quest (for a suitably epic item, of course). Other magic items, too, could be components for a greater one, and there's nothing like something utterly senseless, like the legs of a fish or the innocence of a tyrant to spur off interesting discussion. I will make you take an active role in this if it kills me!

vii. Attunement

Minor magic items can easily be picked up and used by anyone. The simple warrior, the iron tyrant, and the sadisitc butcher all find the humble sword +1 equally useful. Not so for the more potent weapons, which almost have a will of their own. These weapons don't allow themselves to be used to their full extent except by those they deem worthy.

And to be deemed worthy, one must attune themselves to the item. Not all items have this requirement, but some do, and the requirements for doing so can be anything. Perhaps merely drawing the "sword from the stone" is all that is required. For others, perhaps they need to slay a specific foe, or require meditation. Ultimately, the item only functions well when it is attuned to someone, and if it is stolen from them, this atteunement must be broken.

While this in itself is not too difficult (any spellcaster worth his salt is going to be able to break an enchanment- eventually- without interruptions), re-attuning the blade might be. Some weapons may even strike out on their own will against those they deem unworthy. Alignment and the item's purpose will play a central role here.

It's a small comfort that killing someone removes the attunement of all items they possess.

<----------->

1. Armour, Shields, and Weapons

The regular staple of most campaigns, and regrettably for warriors, the items mages are least likely to produce without a specific reason. Clerics, on the other hand, manufacture these items for themselves, and thus, many weapons out there have the emblem of some god or whatnot on them. Elven fighter/mages also manufacture highly personalized weapons, often bonded to the one who crafted them.

Of course, many mages have friends who guard them time and time again against physical threats, and equipping them with magic steel can only help them do their jobs better. Though many magi look upon physical weapons with disdain, the number of arrogant spellcasters who met their death on the end of a pike forces the wise ones to realise that they aren't any less mortal than the next man, and that weapons should be taken seriously- thus, so should magic weapons.

Though I use 'weapon' for most things here, most of the same facts apply to armour.

><: Blueprints for magic equipment of this nature is common. Any mage guild possesses the necessary information to craft +1 or +2 items. They may have blueprints (or have in possession) more unique items; Flaming swords, for instance, appear every now and then. It's much, much harder to find instructions on how to craft higher-level magical arms. Most mages simply had no use to craft the things, and if they *did*, kept their knowledge secret. Higher-level weapons were often constructed for use *by* mages, *for* soldiers, *against* other mages, and spell-reflecting swords and energy-resistant armour is common. Yet, the same paranoia that strikes a high-level mage often prevents them giving out this equipment, less they are struck down by those they gift.

Thus, the mage who seeks blueprints for these items will have to pen the more exotic ones himself.

><: Comparitively, clerics carry these weapons often. Older clerics frequently gift the younger with copies of the same weapon they carried; therefore, entire churches may wield similar weapons that only function in their hands (the dreaded Black-Smoking Axe of Zamzar, for example.) Of course, churches have their more martial defenders, and clerics sometimes gift them with these weapons, as well. Few clerics choose the kind of weapon they will receive, however- they must pray for a weapon and hope what their deity grants them is to their liking. Frequently, it is.

><: For nonspecific enchantments, the only things required are a truly perfect weapon- one forged by a master smith and possibly costing several times the creation cost- and the enchantments themselves. The reason such weapons are not actually as common as one might think is that perfect blades take an awfully long time to forge, there are scant few weaponsmiths who can actually craft the weapon required, and those that can tend to be in the public eye and follow an alarming list of regulations that allows those in power to keep track of who has magic weapons, and what they do. Weapons beyond +2 in enchantment frequently need to be made out of mithril, adamant, or some other rare and expensive substance, which only compounds the problem for the militant mage.

><: Enchanting unique effects on a weapon- the power to burst into flame, the ability to strike swifty, a blade that turns each way to defend it's wielder- these are the weapons that require odd and bizzare components, along with actual spells being cast into them. These objects are supposed to 'hold in' the spell required, and so must be appropraitely aligned. Unfortunately, these materials are rarely easy to find or take from those who have them. Lucky it is, then, that most kinds of blade will only require the one sort. Those that require many items are mighty indeed.

><: It is unfortunate, then, that most of these items must be worked into the construction of a blade. Long may the smith ponder how best to smelt grass from the elysian fields into an axehead (without burning the grass). Few mages are master smiths, but those who are have a distinct edge over their fellows.

><: Any blade which holds more than a +2 enchantment isn't just 'a weapon'. It's a treasured artifact, an ancient heirloom, and it has a distinct purpose behind it's make. A purpose and a personality. You can't simply craft potent steel; the blade has to *want* to strike something down. And for that, it needs a reason. Anything with a reason has an alignment. Therefore, all the truly powerful blades are aligned, and only those similar in alignment to the blade can make use of it. Frequently, such weapons require attunement to properly unlock all of their powers.

System

Therefore, to craft a magic weapon or piece of armour, you need;

1) Blueprint/Inspiration
2) A Perfect Weapon, built of a suitable material for that level.
  (Tentative List: +1 = Iron, +2 = Steel, +3 = Mithril, +4 = Adamant, +5 = ???)
  (For armour, it depends on the kind. Leather armour should be wrought from the hide of a beast of whatever    potency, etc).
3) A Resonant Component, a piece of *something* that applies to the particular magic this weapon will possess. More or less things may be required, depending    on just what is being done.
4) The Necessary Spells. What these are will naturally vary.


<------------>

2. Scrolls

Scrolls are simply pieces of paper, which wizards and clerics read to create wondrous effects! Oh, so easy does magic look, compared to the hours of practice into which stealth and swordplay go!

If only that was all that was required...

To create a scroll, you need...

1) The Spell being Scribed.

2) A Resplendant Quill, a pen made out of some magical substance or creature. Cockatrice feathers are a common example. Regrettably, only a few quills on the dangerous creatures (which must generally be slain) are ever good for scribing, and some of these are inevitably destroyed in the ensuing combat.

3) Inks Most Pretigious. Luckily, the inks required are relatively simple to get a hold of. Unluckily, they are ridiculously expensive and are made from things like the tears of crushed diamonds, or the blood of gated-in pit fiends which are then slain.

4) Penultimate Parchment, which is merely mystically treated regular parchment. Another secret that mage-guilds frequently charge extraordinary amounts for.

Inspiration or blueprints aren't actually required for individual scrolls- but the ability to scribe any at all must be studied well before attempted. Most mages learn this very early in their careers.

<---------->

3. Potions

At once similar and different to scrolls, potions are much-loved by adventurers of all kinds for their ability to be used by anyone. Lesser potions are usually brewed in batches, while greater potions may require days of brewing to produce half a vial.

To create a potion, you need...

1) The spell being replicated.

2) Chemistry and alchemy materials. Brewing potions requires all sorts of mixtures, and rarely are they simple things. Generally, a private lab is probably required.

3) A suitable container. Most potions are fine in glass vials or tiny skins. Some, such as potions of fiery breath, or of heroism, or some other powerful elixer may require a more exotic recepticle.

It may be that I am firmly in the world of 3e, but I see potions are 'common things every adventurer has'. They're easily the most marketable and all-around useful item, too, and the costs assigned to them aren't great enough to discourage mass-purchase of them in places.


<---------->

4. Wands (I'd be lying if I said I hadn't already read the 2e DMG. I am basically shooting the way wands are normally done there and replacing it with the following. Take it or leave it as you like. The existing wands could more accurately be described as 'staves'.)

Wands are excellent tools for the aspiring wizard. Constrained in their versatility by the number of scrolls they can scribe, or the number of spells they can memorize, they are frequently 'caught short', armed with spell power but lacking the correct spell. Wands, however, allow them to defeat this shortfall.

A wand is essentially a shaping device. Each wand is designed to receive magical energy and shape it into a particular form. To use a wand, a spellcaster must be capable of casting the spell it produces- he must be the correct level and class, but he need not actually know the spell. He sacrifices a spell already prepared of a level that is equal or greater than the level of the spell the wand holds. The wand then discharges the spell as if the caster had prepared it himself. The wand uses the casters level to determine the effect.

Some particularly potent wands hold multiple spells within them, allowing the wizard ever-greater versatility. However, they pale before staves in terms of potency. Wands usually only hold lower-level spells, those from first to fourth level.

All wands require attunement, but there is a special point to wands- a wizard can only be attuned to one wand at a time. Additionally, the process can only be done with the same clear head gained on resting. Thus, while a wizard may have several wands, he can only make use of one each day. Wands may or may not appreciate being 'swapped out'.

To craft a wand, you need...

1) The spell being channeled.

2) A suitable shaft to 'receive' the energy of the spell. Some kind of pseudomagical material must be used, or at least something unusual; a branch cut from a treant, or a pipe smelted by a volcano are ideas.

3) The spell itself needs to be scribed onto the shaft, which may require anything from ink to a chisel.

4) The hardest part is finding a kind of item that can actaully 'work magic' so to speak. Usually, this is encapsulated within a jewel of some kind. Beholder eyes are particularly valued- they enable the spell to be cast at a range. However, usually a wizard must take whatever 'spell-casting' item he can find, ranging from the brain of a wizard to the heart of a dragon.


5. Staves

Wands channel the power of their owners. Staves, however, have their own power, and mighty it is. No stave is found in the hands of an amateur; every wizard's staff in this world is (or was) a very personal item, one which will never be used to it's fullest extent by some other wizard. Functionally, they serve as implements that cast spells, but every staff worth the substance it was carved from boasts extra effects, 'quirks' of the wizard who built it.

Every staff runs off 'charges'. The charges are not infinite and must be replenished by a wizard who wishes to continue using it. The mighty intrsuments are charged by all manner of substances, from fresh blood to bottled hatred. Most wizards choose something that they can procure and have an attachment to, which causes no end of trouble for their successors. All staves have at least partial sentience, and more than a few have entire personalities.

These charges are used to fuel the magical effects within the staff. Every staff contains at least one spell which can be cast with but a word and a gesture from the possessing wizard. Most contain a repitoire of similar spells, linked by school or element or something else. Many contain variations on a single spell, or spells based on a particular substance. The mightiest staves, commonly known as the 'Staff of Power' and the 'Staff of the Magi' have access to a broad range of spells, but crafting an item that can do so many things at once is a virtual impossibility to anyone but an archmagi.

Most staves have other effects as well. Many double as weapons for use when the wizard is in peril and has no other recourse- some in fact revel in this use. Others have miscellaneous abilities brought about by the combination of certain spells, while others offer defensive abilities. Frequently, they are constructed out of an mage's favourite few items, packaging all of his might into a single weapon. Some staves combine the theories of wand within them, as well, allowing the user to sacrifice his existing spells to cast others.

No two staves are ever the same, and their construction is never taken lightly. The fact that the wizard injects not only his spirit, but part of his persona into a staff is something that is never forgotten. No wizard remains whole after crafting such an item. This has lead to madness, and worse things.

All staves require attunement. If the original creator of the staff still lives, it will attempt to get itself back to him- should anyone pick it up, they will find themselves compelled to seek out their true owner. This isn't the function of some inborn spell- this is the shard of said wizards's mind trying to reunite itself with the greater whole. Woe betide the enemy of such a wizard who thinks him dead and takes his staff...

To craft a staff, you need...

1) To figure out what the heck it does. The common binding feature of staves is that they possess charges, which are expended to do 'something'.

2) The spells the staff is going to cast.

3) Spells relevent to other effects the staff may have.

4) Everything a wand requires. Additionally, should the staff have other miscellaneous effects, it's going to need items from that area as well. For instance, a staff designed to hurt opponents will need to follow the rules for weapon generation. i.e. it will need to be both a stately token of grandeur and a perfect weapon at the same time.

5) Part of the caster's persona. As has been stated, creating a staff is going to have to cause the creator to lose something. For some, this is sanity. For some, the capacity to love. Others bottle their hatred into the weapon. Wizards who create staves and possess familiars find their psyche's locked up in various places outside their body, and over the years, this can take its toll. The most fervent scholars of arcane might frequently become its most twisted.


6. Other

There isn't a set regime for creating items outside this guidelines. What is always true is that such items must be masterfully worked and are frequently difficult to procure. Items to different parts of the body are more attuned to different effects, but there's literally no end of ideas.

[Anastasia]

This guide is really, really vauge. No matter how you tell me to do things myself, Dune, I can't exactly decide costs or particular abilities or anything.

That's fine. It gives me more room to work with dependant on the situation at hand.

Re - Arcane vs Divine.

This seems to fit in well with the standard; Clerical and Mage magic are different yet the same. I like this, it admits the same rough underpinnings while keeing them somewhat distinct in practical function.

Re - Time and space

Time's fine. I don't think it'll matter too much in this campaign as you're willing to go at your own paces. The episodic format isn't going to seriously infringe on this at most times. As for space? A good rule of thumb is for the wizard to have a lab made for themselves or one to use, or the cleric to have their own altar/temple for it. Whatever works, really. I'd rather just keep it common sense here.

Re - Money.

Dur. Magic item creation is a great way to slim down the party coffers, after all.

Re - Soul

Interesting stuff there. I'm not sure what I'd consider standard - EXP or hitpoints, perhaps, but that gets close to the headache that Permanancy was in the first place.

Re - Blueprints.

By and large this stuff is roughly fine. I'll want to tweak it a little last as other things shape up. My only real gripe is potions - I'm not sure how I want to handle those relative to this. This would render any sort of herbalist/potion brewer kit moot in this game, or at least somewhat altered. Hm.

Re - Components.

That's fine. Nice and vague to give me more rope to hang you with!

Re - Attunement.

Mmph. While a few items are probably close to this practically (Sun and Moon, Saul's amulet), I'm not sure how deeply I want to go into this. Let me mull this part over/hear other thoughts. The last line about killing a person provides a nasty little barb for higher level demises.

Re - Ingredients for weapon/armor making.

This is fine with some noted exceptions - Dragonscale comes right to mind. This is fine with the caveat I'll make exceptions here and there for certain materials.

Re - Greater than +2 weapons/purpose.

Meh. This I don't like so much. I like playing up most magical weapons as something unique and special; this goes to far, much to my ruement. This feels more like an optional thing, otherwise, all higher level weapons become psudeo intelligent, and I really don't want to deal with that.

Skipping scrolls since we've mostly been over that.

Re - Potions. Except for the bit about them being common, we're good here. I'm not really a big fan of overly common potions, it feels like it leads to portable magic syndrome.

Staves and Wands I'll get with you privately about.

---

Overall it's quite good. The bones are all solid and well stated, barring a few nitpicks on my end. I like it.

[Dracos]

RAW IRC DUMP!

[22:24] * Dracos moves to commenting on rat's magic item creation
[22:24] * Anastasia nods.
[22:25] <Dracos> seems really written with vagueness rather than this campaign in mind.  *can't help going Dur right with you through half the opener >_>*
[22:25] * Anastasia nods.
[22:26] <Anastasia> It was written that way on purpose - I think he means it as a more general purpose thing, as well as to give me flex.
[22:28] * Dracos resists copy pasting your response =p
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[22:28] <Dracos> +2 weapons are SUPAPOWER!
[22:28] * Anastasia nods.
[22:28] <Anastasia> Yeah. Most of it's good, but a few parts are >_<
[22:28] * Dracos eyes the DMG, which assumees virtually all level 5-7 characters have picked up at least one of them.
[22:30] <Dracos> Personally?  I think the arcane vs divine is...a  little pointless.  It reads like "Mages can make magic weapons.  So can clerics.  And that's the only place magic weapons come from.  They aren't ever produced by legendary artisans, demon gifts, gods, etc."
[22:31] * Dracos admits so far in reading he hasn't bit on anything aside from the parts swiped from 3rd edish as having a point.
[22:31] <Anastasia> I dunno. I see it as simply demarcating the difference betwee them. AS for the others? I imagine they have their own ways, I don't see this as absolute on ends far past PCs.
[22:33] <Dracos> Yeah, I suppose.  I figured that those differences kind of went without saying.  Of course a mage who doesn't have BANISH UNDEAD can't make a mace of BANISH UNDEAD.  Nor will a cleric make a sword of fireball much.
[22:34] * Dracos sees a lot of his worries as pointless. Any reasonable expense will keep item creation from running rampant.
[22:34] * Anastasia nods.
[22:37] <Dracos> eh.  His divine inspiriation thing is a little odd.  Isn't the power for a magic item coming from a god in that case?  So wouldn't, in all cases, it involve the worship to said god and such in the creation?  I mean, cleric's aren't wizards.  They're more channelers than casters.
[22:38] * Dracos doesn't have anything against it persay, just well, seems odd and more in line with mimicking the wizard side.
[22:38] <Dracos> Either side 'prays/researches' for a blueprint and then can churn it out.
[22:39] <Dracos> We are not to steal a tyrant's childhood toys for rat's spells.
[22:40] <Dracos> hmm
[22:41] <Anastasia> I kinda like that idea, though, Rat. _>
[22:41] <Anastasia> Er, Drac. The stealing toys one.
[22:42] <Dracos> I know you would.  That's why I said it.  =p
[22:43] <Dracos> That said, I've always thought that that style of magic item creation has a bad habit of totally devouring the focus of the game for a long while.
[22:44] <Dracos> Not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily preferrable to more blatant and clear ingredients that don't involve puzzling out a set of riddles that end up being 3-4 quests
22:45] <Dracos> Attuenment is retarded.
[22:45] <Dracos> Putting it in totally remmoves the 'specialness' of actual high powered items which require attunation by transforming everything into such after level 10.
[22:49] * Anastasia nods. I didn't care for it too much myself.
[22:51] <Dracos> you know, the more I read, the more I don't really care much for the whole blueprint schema he's using.
[22:51] <Dracos> All it really amounts to is justification for why simple items can be made without research.
[22:52] <Dracos> I prefer the simplicity of just 'you need to know spells x,y,z and 'research/pay/getingredients'=spend development time to get it'
[22:55] <Anastasia> 'pend son the game. Some of it can easily be done off camera, but I like it at least having some on RP component.
[22:55] <Anastasia> 'specially if it's a noteworthy item. If you're just making a shield +1 to buff somoene up, not so much.
[22:55] <Dracos> All the blueprints really are is a bunch of complications over that to explain just 'how' knowledge is passed.
[22:55] <Dracos> "Oh it's not books, it's blueprints!"
[22:56] <Dracos> Well, the way it's written, it basically goes 'you'll have to make it up anyway for any noteworthy item'.
[22:56] <Dracos> As it seems to repeat at least 3 times so far.
[22:56] * Anastasia nods.
[22:57] <Anastasia> He's also laying out that low level items might already have them done so he doesn't have to, too.
[22:58] <Dracos> Yeah.  I noticed that.  Justification on why simple items can be made without research.  I'd go "You're a mage.  You've been doing this for how many years and reading how many books?  I think you can figure out how to do a +1 sword without worrying about extra research anyway."
[22:58] * Dracos shrugs.
[22:59] <Dracos> In the end, whether 'researched' or 'blue printed' and then developed, the lions share of time with low level stuff is in making it not figuring out how it is made.

The +2 = supagod.  Is stupid.  Nough said.

The common magic item stuff.  Reasonable enough, though I don't think any of us were going to question such.

23:04] <Dracos> mmm
[23:04] * Anastasia nods.
[23:04] <Dracos> basically, his magic item creation thing feels messy enough that I wouldn't want to use it.  Not that it is actually messy, but it gives that impression.
[23:04] <Dracos> Naturally, in this game, it doesn't matter much because I'm not doing it nor do I see gavin bugging saul on making stuff for him.
[23:05] <Anastasia> I'd say just the opposite. IT's nicely detailed but flexible enough to allow GM work.
[23:05] <Anastasia> It flows logically and after a bit of tweaking shouldn't have any mess at all.
[23:05] <Anastasia> It does beg for attention to be given to magical item creation, though.
[23:07] <Dracos> Yup it does.  Which is reasonable in light of the fact it'll hardly ever be done.  At least as far as I've read.  I don't see any huge difference between having this all detailed out and going "I'd like to research X type of item in the mage's guild and thus discover that I need to accomplish y and z for it as the GM determines at the time".
[23:07] * Anastasia nods. True, but the chrome is nice for style and detail.
[23:07] * Dracos basically more doesn't see the reason for the detail for something that seems rare to happen and a detail that basically goes "LOOK AT ME, I"m SPECIAL, RARE, AND SHOULD ALMOST NEVER HAPPEN!"
[23:08] <Dracos> I also sort of 'eh' at the materials being critical to the enchantment value.  So anyone wearing +5 hide is wearing dragon hide that's +5?
[23:08] <Dracos> anyone wielding a +4 sword is wielding a sword that's adamantium?
[23:08] <Anastasia> Yeah. I commente don that - it needs exceptions and tweaks there for obvious reasons.
[23:16] <Dracos> I really don't see the point of even going there.  I mean, it's easy enough to detail out that you'd need high quality ingredients without going 'It's impossible to enchant a wussy dagger with a deadly enchantment'
[23:18] <Dracos> Wands seems retarded.
[23:18] <Dracos> But I'm not playing a mage  under said rules, so that's between you and rat really.
[23:18] <Dracos> If he wants to make it so that he can't manage to buy his way into endurance, we've got enough in the party that I'm not going to worry over it.

and that's about it.

[Corwin]

I'm going to comment, if I'm understanding Dune right and he doesn't mind me doing so here. Any disagreements I have with Rat are basically cosmetic. I'm with Dune in how this covers quite a bit and is yet flexible enough to leave the GM room to maneuver, and sometimes decide case-by-case.

Mages by nature tend to be more flowery than anyone swinging a sword, and the blueprints are just one example where this happens. Sure, it explains away the low-level items and their availability, like Drac says, but I think he misses the point that having the whole mythos of praying for divine inspiration and then making it true is just plain cooler and showy than getting spells X,Y,Z, getting components A,B,C from a grocery list and then just saying 'I get this done at a temple' by nudging and winking at the fourth wall. Basically, it all comes down to flavor. On the one hand, a mage can create lower-level items easily with the 'excuse' of having the blueprints for them. On the other, he can actually RP the process of laboring over new blueprints for something cool and high-level enough to warrant it.

Re: Attunement, it's open enough so the GM can rule it to happen in very special cases, such as +5 Swords of Unholy Apocalypse. The +1 weapon example Rat gives is there to mention the low-end magical items, not to claim that anything +2 and higher demands attunement. Unless I'm reading it all wrong, of course.

Re: Purpose. I believe it might be better to split this into a requirement for a certain alignment for the wielder for +3/+4 items and move the purpose to +5, which would make sense with the pseudo/semi-sentient items being high enough so it makes sense. Of course, the purpose itself is vague enough that the GM could always make something trivial for it, unless he wanted to use it for plot reasons. And realistically, it seems to me that +3 items and higher are pretty decent, and certainly not common in the world. It wouldn't be impossible for each to have a reason behind its creation, maybe even one that left its mark on the item itself.

Re: Soul. A possibility that might be interesting, IMO, if the higher-end stuff (+4/+5? just +5?) resembled a familiar this way. So that part of the soul is invested, and if the item is destroyed, the original creator suffers the same damages as from the death of a familiar due to their link with it. I must admit I don't remember how familiars go in 2e, so I'm basically using 3e as reference, here.

[Carthrat]

Before I really get into things, I'd like to point out that lots of this stuff can 'seem' obvious as to the nature of item creation. Yeah, it might be obvious that you need good equipment. Yeah, it might be obvious you need to have certain spells. Yeah, it might be obvious that you need to know how to do it  blah blah blah.

The purpose of actually *explaining* all that was...

a) If it was so obvious, I wouldn't have been asked to write a system for it.

b) To add a certain amount of flavour beyond the 'insert numbers, retrieve item' thing. I thought blueprints were clever, simultaneously allowing lesser items and adding steps to the creation of greater ones. It is of course pointless fluff if we go back to the aptly-named 'grocery list' ideal.

Let's stay away from this ideal and ensure some actual mystique goes into this stuff.

Onto some general points...

Attunement- The problem here seems to be that having this effect as an existant thing cheapens the whole idea of it and makes it less special. I point out that it doesn't need to apply to every item, and that it's based on the idea of magical weaponary being built for a purpose of it's own, along with the simple fact that a crafter of an item (particulary strongly aligned ones, i.e. clerics) is going to be wanting to make sure it's used for the purpose he made it.

+3 is pretty strong. +1 and +2 are fairly common, as are a host of minor enchantments. Though I do agree that attunment/particular purpose/philosophy wouldn't apply to EVERY WEAPON, I do believe these things would frequently be reflected in weapon design.

I'd certainly build features like that into weapon I designed, were it possible. Of course, the metaphysics of magic could just not allow it.

-Seperation between Arcane and Divine, "Who makes items."

Firstly, yeah, the methods are similar. Arcane people get blueprints, Divine people get inspiriation.. hell, they're similar, let's ignore it and all the interesting things that can be played off this difference. Bluntly put, they're not the same, and while the mechanics side could be similar, the moral/social/in-game/IC/whatever differences can be anything.

As for only these people making them, well, this an item generation thing for PCs. Demon Lord Ozgoth can certainly build a hellish sword of soul-eating, but it's not like that matters to me. Weird magical effects, divine outsiders, etc- I am not exlcuding these as possibilities.

-Worrying about costs being pointless

They're not, you know. I want to know what I'm actually putting into this stuff, and I'd find it so immeasurably boring if it was still just a matter of 'insert numbers, gain item'. I'd like there to be actual ramifications to deciding to make an item beyond losing a few dollars, too. >_>

-Devouring the focus of the game

Not at all. Sure, it's a presence and part of our focus will be on it. But I don't want to spend entire sessions ruminating on it, and having a solid basis of how magic items are created gives me the ability to talk more about them IC when it's relevant than "so I have this item and it does stuff". Personally, I wouldn't mind a bit more given to the nature of magic/magic items in general.

It's what mages DO. It's just as valid as, say, getting knightly recognition or roleplaying out a bit of training here and there.

-Blueprints.

I said much the same thing in my opening line. Essentailly.. why *not* come up with this sort of justification?

-Specific materials, why this stuff needs to be detailed

I've hardly gone into specific detail on how individual items are created. Component is a very loosely designed thing. As far as specific materials go, they're just ideas. Alright, not every +4 sword is made out of adamant, but surely it gets the point across on the sort of stuff a potent weapon should be crafted from.

-Wands/Staves

The wands was an idea of sorts that I thought would be neat. I don't actually have much stake in it. Spell batteries are fine with me.

Ultimately, I tried to get across, if not the actual mythos, then the idea of some kind of 'lore' behind item generation. Yeah, a fair bit of personal taste is wrapped up in here, and it encourages a large focus on it in-game.

I don't see these as bad things (naturally), but if we wanted some humdrum math system or whatever, then Dune would never have asked me to think this up.

[Dracos]

Before I really get into things, I'd like to point out that lots of this stuff can 'seem' obvious as to the nature of item creation. Yeah, it might be obvious that you need good equipment. Yeah, it might be obvious you need to have certain spells. Yeah, it might be obvious that you need to know how to do it  blah blah blah.

Fair enough

The purpose of actually *explaining* all that was...

a) If it was so obvious, I wouldn't have been asked to write a system for it.

Aside from dune really liking things written out? ^_~

b) To add a certain amount of flavour beyond the 'insert numbers, retrieve item' thing. I thought blueprints were clever, simultaneously allowing lesser items and adding steps to the creation of greater ones. It is of course pointless fluff if we go back to the aptly-named 'grocery list' ideal.

Well, I still don't see it as different in that regard, other than really slapping a name onto it and going 'you need this to figure out something that's clearly beneath your skills at a time'.  In an RP sense, it isn't bad at all, it's just came across as a messy justification.

Lemme put it a different way.  The creation of a blue print for a new staff seems no different than diving into books, studying, researching, and trying to make a new staff.  In both cases, the mage in question seems to go into his lab, consult previous similar stuff and mage knowledge, and then attempt to churn out something he's not done before.  About the only thing really the blue print concept brings to this is that it makes it sound engineering/factory style.  In other words, a mage can go to the mage guild, buy a blueprint of making swords that shoot fire and if he has enough ingredients for 10 of them, he can just mass produce ten of them right out just by following the blueprint.  To me that seems a bit more raw and...well, structured than I tend to envision magic.  I suppose 2nd ed has backdrop for it with the Greyhawk spells, but it does seem more mechanical an explanation than it being a feat of intense research into arcane tomes and the like.

In both cases, it's generally negligable the time taken for lesser items, whether by research or dropping by the local mage guild and looking up the appropriate blue print.  In the advanced case, the only addition is the indication that a mage somehow has enough ingredients to prototype things commonly (which I think the standard steps around intentionally).  I suppose it adds the ability to stop before spending the resources.

Let's stay away from this ideal and ensure some actual mystique goes into this stuff.

Fair 'nuff.

Onto some general points...

Attunement- The problem here seems to be that having this effect as an existant thing cheapens the whole idea of it and makes it less special. I point out that it doesn't need to apply to every item, and that it's based on the idea of magical weaponary being built for a purpose of it's own, along with the simple fact that a crafter of an item (particulary strongly aligned ones, i.e. clerics) is going to be wanting to make sure it's used for the purpose he made it.

This is reasonable, of course, but it's worded very strongly for it and more well... we also want to avoid the explosive party syndrome.  We are going for long/epic.  Having alignment/goal stuff on an occassional weapon in the party is one thing.  Having it practically mandated for everything when the party hits level 18 and is decked out in +4/+5 equipment for everyone will get...very ugly.  To counterpoint?  Yes, divine will generally have an alignment thing, but I question how much mages will.  Really, you're building a whole crafter culture here with blueprints that are regularly maintained and matching it with the kind of stuff that belongs on solely legendary items.  I think it'd be much better to allow the GM to regulate this with items and indicate that particularly powerful and skilled mages 'can' (not necessarily do) set stuff like that up, but most will be hard pressed enough making a +4 axe of mountain cleaving to worry about making sure it's only used by dwarves seeking to defend their homeland.

+3 is pretty strong. +1 and +2 are fairly common, as are a host of minor enchantments. Though I do agree that attunment/particular purpose/philosophy wouldn't apply to EVERY WEAPON, I do believe these things would frequently be reflected in weapon design.

Agreed but...disagreed.  +3 is pretty strong.  I still don't think it'd be frequently reflected in weapon design beyond the standard, if you're making a sword that kills frostkin, you're pretty much already imbuing it with a form of direction, similarly a blade of keenness +3.  I think this whole bit would be much better stated how I did above *waves* where it 'can' happen, but isn't the standard or common, even among high powered mages.

on that?

Also, a fair bit of the demographics of item generation assume that high level magi are frequently friendless, evil, paranoid, or all three. Certainly, I don't see any reason why many shouldn't be mad.

I think this is where that's coming from.  And well, that's a problem in a few respects.

Respect the first: You've got an active mage culture in our world.  It's not a secretive/hermitish one.  There's no reason why there aren't plentiful powerful mages in the public eye.  In fact we've been working considerably with one such for a fair portion of the game.  Certaiinly the suggested cases will exist, but magery is seeming way too publicly acceptable for the notion that magic crafters get pushed to the edge of civilization instead of you having high powered mages right in town for that kind of stuff.  A mage that might make swords of ogre's bane as a commission for a set off knights isn't likely to fling a bunch of requirements on it.
[/quote]

I'd certainly build features like that into weapon I designed, were it possible. Of course, the metaphysics of magic could just not allow it.

You are, as repeatedly noted, a fairly paranoid mage and I don't see any reason this wouldn't happen...but I think you're misstating in the fact that you'd only be making items for yourself mostly and thus influencing the writeup with that rather than leaving the possibility open for yourself.

-Seperation between Arcane and Divine, "Who makes items."

Firstly, yeah, the methods are similar. Arcane people get blueprints, Divine people get inspiriation.. hell, they're similar, let's ignore it and all the interesting things that can be played off this difference. Bluntly put, they're not the same, and while the mechanics side could be similar, the moral/social/in-game/IC/whatever differences can be anything.

As for only these people making them, well, this an item generation thing for PCs. Demon Lord Ozgoth can certainly build a hellish sword of soul-eating, but it's not like that matters to me. Weird magical effects, divine outsiders, etc- I am not exlcuding these as possibilities.

Basically, the writeup seemed odd as is.  I agree that having the separation is neat.  I do think though that how you wrote it keeps them...too similar.

I tend to envision clerics as not workers of energy so much as channelers of divine power and will.  Inspiration that's repeatable doesn't really make this separation.  I'd suggest instead it'd be more the same each time for any item as the process isn't so much the inspiration or personal design with them, but them working with their deities, unlike mages who are doing everything themselves.

-Worrying about costs being pointless

They're not, you know. I want to know what I'm actually putting into this stuff, and I'd find it so immeasurably boring if it was still just a matter of 'insert numbers, gain item'. I'd like there to be actual ramifications to deciding to make an item beyond losing a few dollars, too. >_>

Elaborating on the various ways that the cost can be displayed=sensible.  Several sentences on why this is important GM side?  Worrying pointlessly. =p  Not disputing the concepts, just saying all the GM theory you flung out there was messy and unnecessary.

-Devouring the focus of the game

Not at all. Sure, it's a presence and part of our focus will be on it. But I don't want to spend entire sessions ruminating on it, and having a solid basis of how magic items are created gives me the ability to talk more about them IC when it's relevant than "so I have this item and it does stuff". Personally, I wouldn't mind a bit more given to the nature of magic/magic items in general.

It's what mages DO. It's just as valid as, say, getting knightly recognition or roleplaying out a bit of training here and there.

[22:42] <Dracos> I know you would. That's why I said it. =p
[22:43] <Dracos> That said, I've always thought that that style of magic item creation has a bad habit of totally devouring the focus of the game for a long while.
[22:44] <Dracos> Not necessarily a bad thing, but not necessarily preferrable to more blatant and clear ingredients that don't involve puzzling out a set of riddles that end up being 3-4 quests

Not necessarily a bad thing.  I understand your side there.  =p  Read the both sentences =p

-Blueprints.

I said much the same thing in my opening line. Essentailly.. why *not* come up with this sort of justification?

-Specific materials, why this stuff needs to be detailed

I've hardly gone into specific detail on how individual items are created. Component is a very loosely designed thing. As far as specific materials go, they're just ideas. Alright, not every +4 sword is made out of adamant, but surely it gets the point across on the sort of stuff a potent weapon should be crafted from.

Indeed...but it's also sort of pushing towards a balance insanity.  Having low tier equipment with high magic is kind of important for rogues later on and I don't want to see sets of them in mithril.  *shrugs* More a dune thing then any business of mine, but I think the extra is unnecessary.

Another way of phrasing it: A mage will generally seek to enchant higher quality materials than lower quality ones.  The enchantment is not so much bound by the materials, but there's a lot more prestige and art in making a +4 adamantium suit of armor than making a +4 padded armor (in general).  The interesting ingredients should generally be external to what's being enchanted.  Aka shield of fire protect may require heart of a pyrococktrice + any shield.  It has the exoticness without saying 'yeah you can't manage to enchant this shield because it's made of iron'.

-Wands/Staves

The wands was an idea of sorts that I thought would be neat. I don't actually have much stake in it. Spell batteries are fine with me.

Ultimately, I tried to get across, if not the actual mythos, then the idea of some kind of 'lore' behind item generation. Yeah, a fair bit of personal taste is wrapped up in here, and it encourages a large focus on it in-game.

I don't see these as bad things (naturally), but if we wanted some humdrum math system or whatever, then Dune would never have asked me to think this up.

It feels a bit more engineerish than loreish.  But yeah, I do see the direction.  And I think you overplay Dune there  =p  He likes seeing us customize things, of that I'm pretty sure.

Anyhow, it can work and I think a few (not all) of the thoughts I tossed up there might help it be a little more interesting.   mmm, dizziness.

Dracos
NO END.