Rules cleanup/clarification/streamlining.

[Asrana]

I'm forced to spend 15 ep for the combined attacks...so yeah, I'd at least like to get SOMETHING out of them if the soul misses. See Makoto's logic, really. If you fail to focus the magic, there's not necessarily anything wrong with your physical swing.

[Anastasia]

Yeah, pretty much, and it also happens to make sense. If anyone else wants to argue or comment go ahead. Since I got mostly agreement in #mk over it I'm inclined to enact it unless someone has anything to say tonight.

[Laggy]

Sounds fine to me, albeit I would move for putting those kind of combos down on a sheet with a set cost. Hotaru's is a good example, she has to spend more then the assumed 5 EP usage for the EC application. 15 EP sounds about right in the ballpark.

The main problem, I think, was coming with those on the fly without any real mechanics to ground them in for balance yet. Incidentally, new abilities that you just start experimenting in the heat of battle would probably require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.

[Bean Bandit]

The main problem, I think, was coming with those on the fly without any real mechanics to ground them in for balance yet. Incidentally, new abilities that you just start experimenting in the heat of battle would probably require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.

This seems rather excessive. Considering they already require two rolls instead of the normal 1 for practiced manuevers. How many handcuffs do we want to put on creativity in fighting? On top of that, They don't do enough damage to warrant so many restrictions.

I do understand the need for balance, but we're really headed toward making EC too costly and frustrating to use in fights, and we'll just end up spamming Melee and Senshi attacks.

Come to think of it, -why- do Hotaru's combined attacks cost fifteen EP? I assume there's a good reason, since she hasn't objected, but should I be assigning combined moves a higher cost? (I confess. I skip reading large chunks of this thread because arguments over rules detract from the fun of the game for me.)

[Asrana]

require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.

You're confusing EC manuevers.

There's EC to make your hand to hand attacks simple weapons - This requires one action/roll.

Then there's EC added to a melee weapon - You roll this every single time you attack with it.

We're concerned with the latter, not the former. A full action to activate it would make it...amazingly stupid to use.

[Laggy]

If you're going to start arguing about the numbers, then it's going to be a math argument and that's really all it'll amount to. Whether 5 or 15 EP for adding EC x 5 damage to your basic physical with a Soul check is balanced is totally up to (the GM's) interpretation. Hotaru's is such a clear-cut classic example of "add EC to regular attack" damage that the cost is the basis as to why others shouldn't get off more easily (again 5 as opposed to 15).

This is off-topic, anyway; the original question was whether a failed Soul check would cause the melee part of an attack to miss, and it looks like everyone's agreed no, that you'd still get the physical part to do something.

[Bean Bandit]

Well, yes, it's off topic, but now I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about so I don't get smacked with another rule change or mistake I'm making in the middle of a blasted fight again. ^^;

[Laggy]

There... isn't anything concrete to discuss.

By their nature, anytime you try something new in combat, the mechanics for it are going to be wonky since it's never been tested before. It will be analyzed and compared to anything similar to make sure it checks out well, and the more conservative way approach to do that is to generally let stuff start out small at first and then expand on it later. This makes more sense in accordance to experimenting with new moves or techniques anyhow, including EC applications.

The main point I'm trying to make is that new stuff coming up should generally not instantly overshadow pre-existing stuff, especially in the case where they are all but identical. It always takes a few tries before you get the hang of something to work effectively, hence my remarks above.

Does this stem creative and new attempts from being instantly good or effective? Only somewhat, yes, but at the same time if you never even try, you're not going to get anywhere, either. Baby steps first, then more concrete skill later. It's far too situational-based for someone to really say, and comes down to that and the GM in the end.

[Bean Bandit]

It always takes a few tries before you get the hang of something to work effectively, hence my remarks above.

This really isn't necessarily true, unless you're doing something you've never even touched before. For example, we've all been using EC for the longest time, and have even combined it with Melee before. There's no good reason to make it harder, considering the soul checks still have a roughly one in three chance of failing.

Now, if I'd tried Plant EC for the first time in a fight, sure, all sorts of Mods and restrictions should apply. But Practice, logically speaking, should make EC use easier than the (to me) ridiculous complexity of what you seem to be proposing.

[Laggy]

If you've used a particular EC application that many times, then by all rights it should really deserve to be put down in writing on your sheet or whatnot. Failure rate is dependant on char to char, so that's not really applicable. (For instance, Hotaru has an extremely minor fail chance on her ability.)

There's nothing complex about saying "trying new stuff is a slow and learning process, and thus will not equate to being instantly as good/better than already existing stuff". If just being willing to deal with mechanics in a balanced manner is what you call complex, then, well, I can't really argue your view on that. >_>

[Asrana]

There's nothing complex about saying "trying new stuff is a slow and learning process, and thus will not equate to being instantly as good/better than already existing stuff". If just being willing to deal with mechanics in a balanced manner is what you call complex, then, well, I can't really argue your view on that. >_>

Actually, this goes quite against how we've run things so far. There are perhaps mods on ideas, but by and far, diving into the deep end of a magical concept is what we're best at. Jun's even called us on it about how we're natural talents at it. >_>;

We've done 'slow learning process' to one degree or another with the most complex ideas, but we still tend to focus on pushing and shoving rather hard with the stuff, and rarely takes us more than a few days to nail our first work with something down. And EC isn't honestly one of those amazingly complex ideas unless you use it specifically so.

[Ebiris]

While this is irrelevant to Usagi, as her EC is utterly inoffensive, I can still chip in my thoughts since I did once play a girl who had fire EC in the last game...

EC is something instinctive and very much innate to the character - it's far less about feeling out mechanics and dry experimentation, and really should be able to flow quite freely unless you push against the upper limits of what your skill allows.

For the example of trying something new in combat, I see no reason why one couldn't have a sudden inspiration to use their EC in a situation where it would be advantageous, even if they haven't put the specific 'trick' on their sheet - you can't cover for all eventualities, but if something makes sense at a particular moment, why not encourage creative problem solving by using EC? Obviously some things are harder than others, but that gets taken into account with mods on your soul check, whether you're practicing it for the first time in controlled circumstances or doing it for the first time in a heated battle.

Honestly, for what the main thrust of the discussion is - using EC to buff a melee attack, I see no reason at all why every senshi shouldn't have already practiced such and got it down to a fine art, hence it shouldn't even be an issue for this experimentation penalty.