Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

This is an AU story that's aiming for humor.  We know what that means.

The ending is especially rushed; stayed up ... mmm ... far too late making myself finish this to defeat writer's block.  Tomorrow's going to be interesting. :)

I hope you enjoy!

QuoteAfter a full evening to thing about things

First thing should be think.

Quote"Ah, come on," he complains to an known listener

Should be 'unknown'

It works, for a one shot. It moves a brisk pace, the jokes don't run overly long, and I can't decide which is funnier; Taniguchi in general or "Are you seriously telling me that you keep Sasaki calm? That you have to fight her wild emotions?" I ask, bewildered."

This is one of the more entertaining Suzumiya/Asahina matchups.

Quote from: thepanda on September 22, 2011, 08:29:58 AMIt works, for a one shot. It moves a brisk pace, the jokes don't run overly long, and I can't decide which is funnier; Taniguchi in general or "Are you seriously telling me that you keep Sasaki calm? That you have to fight her wild emotions?" I ask, bewildered."

Thanks for catching those grammar issues.  I had the most fun writing Chronoguchi and Achahina; really wanted a bit more to do with Suou.

Quote from: Jon on September 22, 2011, 11:23:23 AM
This is one of the more entertaining Suzumiya/Asahina matchups.

Well, it doesn't step on the Kyon/Haruhi relationship, since that doesn't exist (in the same form) here.  I was personally a bit more interested in the Sasaki/Kyon angle, though. :p

In general, I want to work on my representation of Sasaki, as I feel it's a bit weak. :x

Anyway!  Sounds like you two had fun, so that part was a success! :D

Between this and my Doctor Who fic I've realized Haruhi makes a very convincing alien.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 02:32:36 PM
I had the most fun writing Chronoguchi

My reaction (similarly to NG+): hahahahahahugggggghatehatehatehahahahahilarious. I guess that's in the ballpark of what you intended.

On a sidenote: Taniguchi says 'eh?' a lot and it really doesn't fit the character. It makes him sound much more earnest and laid back than he actually is.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 02:32:36 PM
and Achahina; really wanted a bit more to do with Suou.

Re Achahina and KBDH!Achakura: I sincerely applaud your valiant but ultimately doomed attempts to turn vapid Japanese YouTube memes into valid fanfiction ideas.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 02:32:36 PM
In general, I want to work on my representation of Sasaki, as I feel it's a bit weak. :x

I'd agree with that assessment. Your version sounds not enough like the Sasaki in the books (who keeps giving me this weird vibe like she's one of the nonhuman characters - I don't know, something about her is firmly in the Uncanny Valley) and too much like this one person I have coffee with once in a while.

So your Sasaki is a good person to have coffee with and not so much a good person to be standing in for novel!Sasaki :-)

The closest you came to capturing in-novel Sasaki (albeit via an extremely flanderized fan service joke) was her "okay, now that the weird reality warping stuff is taken care of, we can move on to the actually important stuff, namely homework" moment at the end.

I found it humorous, not in a 'riotous laughter' sense, but in a well tempered, intellectual way that arose from the discrepancy between the personalities of the original and the new cast. I assume that you went for a bit of exaggeration with the personalities to make it easier to spot the answer -- some of them were very obvious, some others a bit harder until I figured out the size of the pool of potential candidates.

Concerning Sasaki in particular, I think that you have managed to capture her dutiful, tolerant and considerate side very well. Beyond that she has clear philosophical tendencies. An introvert, she lives primarily in a world of ideas, interconnections and principles, but she also has a very keen eye on small details and human psychology in general. In the MBTI test I would probably peg her as an INFJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INFJ). I have seen it suggested that she might have covert schizoid tendencies: a lower than normal sense of entitlement, a need to keep other people at a 'safe' distance emotionally, and an inability/difficulty to openly express strong emotions, especially anger.

It may or may not help to understand Sasaki by comparing her to real-world Bayesian rationalists like Eliezer Yudkowsky. Who are completely different because Bayesian rationalists strike me as being mostly on crack...

(remember that Yudkowsky fic where Kyon announces to Haruhi that she's God, tells her basically that she's directly responsible for every single death that's ever happened, and then jumps off a skyscraper to further drive home the point? Yeeeaaaah.)

... and Sasaki clearly isn't anything like that (or even at all Bayesian), but they share a certain... I don't even know how to put it. Disdain for wishful thinking maybe? To such an extent that 'normal people' feel sort of alienated by their way of looking at things.

I don't know, can we continue discussing Sasaki on the 'Character Discussion' thread as opposed to here? I'll summarize my basic points there.

EDIT: link to Character Studies thread for the ultra-lazy http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101851.0.html

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:20:35 PMBetween this and my Doctor Who fic I've realized Haruhi makes a very convincing alien.

Haruhi can be a convincing anything, I expect, up and including a normal girl (though I expect that'd be the hardest thing for her to pull off; she only does it a little in book one, when investigating Ryouko).

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:20:35 PMMy reaction (similarly to NG+): hahahahahahugggggghatehatehatehahahahahilarious. I guess that's in the ballpark of what you intended.

Which part did you hate?

If it was Chronoguchi's timeline explanation, that part was ... a bit difficult to write. >_>

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:20:35 PMOn a sidenote: Taniguchi says 'eh?' a lot and it really doesn't fit the character. It makes him sound much more earnest and laid back than he actually is.

Meant to come across as more of a generic noise, like 'huh?'  I can probably replace most of them with, 'Am I right?' or the like.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:20:35 PMRe Achahina and KBDH!Achakura: I sincerely applaud your valiant but ultimately doomed attempts to turn vapid Japanese YouTube memes into valid fanfiction ideas.

I'm doing nothing of the sort intentionally.  If it's happening, that's a bonus;  this really just is the narrative voice I use.

I actually talk the same way I write; Drac can tell you how disconcerting this is in person.  :)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:20:35 PMI'd agree with that assessment. Your version sounds not enough like the Sasaki in the books (who keeps giving me this weird vibe like she's one of the nonhuman characters - I don't know, something about her is firmly in the Uncanny Valley) and too much like this one person I have coffee with once in a while.

So your Sasaki is a good person to have coffee with and not so much a good person to be standing in for novel!Sasaki :-)

The closest you came to capturing in-novel Sasaki (albeit via an extremely flanderized fan service joke) was her "okay, now that the weird reality warping stuff is taken care of, we can move on to the actually important stuff, namely homework" moment at the end.

Okay, that lets me know I missed the mark.  I focused on Sasaki's temperment (that she's typically calm), rationality, and good-nature.

I missed some things:

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 22, 2011, 05:21:49 PMI found it humorous, not in a 'riotous laughter' sense, but in a well tempered, intellectual way that arose from the discrepancy between the personalities of the original and the new cast. I assume that you went for a bit of exaggeration with the personalities to make it easier to spot the answer -- some of them were very obvious, some others a bit harder until I figured out the size of the pool of potential candidates.

It only occured to me after the fact that it could have been much simpler if I had tried:
Haruhi <--> Mikuru
Yuki <--> Koizumi

And then I wouldn't have had to leave Yuki and Koizumi out.  But ... I wouldn't want to apply the jokes I used for Taniguchi to anyone else, and I liked using Kuyou.  Hmm.

That's about the humor I was aiming for (though, I'd like to rely less on fanservice in the future...).  My humor writing tends to be weak, so aiming for 'amusing' instead of 'hilarious' is probably good for me right now. :)

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 22, 2011, 05:21:49 PMConcerning Sasaki in particular, I think that you have managed to capture her dutiful, tolerant and considerate side very well. Beyond that she has clear philosophical tendencies. An introvert, she lives primarily in a world of ideas, interconnections and principles, but she also has a very keen eye on small details and human psychology in general. In the MBTI test I would probably peg her as an INFJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INFJ). I have seen it suggested that she might have covert schizoid tendencies: a lower than normal sense of entitlement, a need to keep other people at a 'safe' distance emotionally, and an inability/difficulty to openly express strong emotions, especially anger.

Okay; excellent.  I can write characters better once I have a good grasp of their dysfunctions.

Your observations sound right to me; I'll have to look into that a bit more (and probably retake that test to remember where I am; it's been a while.  Heh).

Based on what you point out here, Sasaki should have been focused more on the psychology behind the interactions rather than the interactions themselves (which makes her reaction to Kuyou kissing Kyon somewhat fuzzy, but I can ... probably get away with that since she likes Kyon in this story).  Still, something to keep in mind.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:29:19 PMIt may or may not help to understand Sasaki by comparing her to real-world Bayesian rationalists like Eliezer Yudkowsky. Who are completely different because Bayesian rationalists strike me as being mostly on crack...

(remember that Yudkowsky fic where Kyon announces to Haruhi that she's God, tells her basically that she's directly responsible for every single death that's ever happened, and then jumps off a skyscraper to further drive home the point? Yeeeaaaah.)

So much hate.  That was terrible, and my greatest irritation about it is the following two points:
No one in canon actually believes that Haruhi is literally God (even Koizumi, who presents it as an idea of characters in the Organization that are never introduced).
No one in canon should have been that dedicated to the Christian ideal of God specifically (and especially not Kyon).

Beyond that, yeah, Kyon's insanely OOC to force such a horrific thing on Haruhi.  ò_ó

Grrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:29:19 PM... and Sasaki clearly isn't anything like that (or even at all Bayesian), but they share a certain... I don't even know how to put it. Disdain for wishful thinking maybe? To such an extent that 'normal people' feel sort of alienated by their way of looking at things.

Both Sasaki and Haruhi were characterized by their classmates as 'weird girls', if for different reasons.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 05:29:19 PMI don't know, can we continue discussing Sasaki on the 'Character Discussion' thread as opposed to here? I'll summarize my basic points there.

EDIT: link to Character Studies thread for the ultra-lazy http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101851.0.html

Absolutely. :)

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
Meant to come across as more of a generic noise, like 'huh?'  I can probably replace most of them with, 'Am I right?' or the like.

That sounds more like Taniguchi (at least as he's being rendered in the anime by Shiraishi Minoru).

Please change that. It's particularly jarring to someone like me who lives in Canada :-) The point about usage of 'eh?' in Canada is that you don't actually hear it that often in most circles. When you do hear it, it signals some fairly specific things, and I just can't imagine Taniguchi successfully signalling them in that context. If he tried, it would sound forced, in a way that you can't easily convey in text without switching to extremely jarring all capital letters, like if Taniguchi kept doing this, EH???!!! You'd understand exactly why Kyon hates him, EH??!!

You get the idea. Since you're not using all caps, giving the content of his lecture, it sounds either like he's successfully worming himself into Kyon's confidence, or Kyon is overreacting.

That was mostly the source of my 'hatehatehate'. That and the birthmark, but the birthmark part was completely intentional :-)

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
I'm doing nothing of the sort intentionally.  If it's happening, that's a bonus;  this really just is the narrative voice I use.

I think you misunderstood. It's not a question of narrative voice, I was saluting the fact that you're taking one-dimensional chibi fanservice characters and trying to give plausible in-story justifications for why they would exist in the first place.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 05:59:40 PM
So much hate.  That was terrible, and my greatest irritation about it is the following two points:
No one in canon actually believes that Haruhi is literally God (even Koizumi, who presents it as an idea of characters in the Organization that are never introduced).
No one in canon should have been that dedicated to the Christian ideal of God specifically (and especially not Kyon).

Beyond that, yeah, Kyon's insanely OOC to force such a horrific thing on Haruhi.  ò_ó

Grrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

Yeah, wow, your ff.net review was about 500% nicer than your opinion here. But yeah, Yudkowsky has a talent for taking characters and turning them into extremely wooden and unlikeable mouthpieces for his worldview. His Harry Potter fic does that in spades (and Harry isn't exactly a likeable character to begin with).

I'm not so sure Yudkowsky knows what he's doing either... if he was so Bayesian he'd figure out what exactly about his viewpoint makes people instantly (and even somewhat unfairly) classify him as a complete ** and figure out some way to compensate for it. He has his Harry Potter character actually do that (expend energy specifically into getting people to respect him), but it becomes painfully apparent the author doesn't understand how that kind of thing actually works in real life. I guess if he did he'd be far too busy taking over the world with his pet Friendly AI or something.

[Other Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality quibble is that his method to get Draco to try to accept that the scientific method gives sufficient justification to consider 'mudbloods' a superstition, is exactly the method that doesn't work. My Yudkowsky-fan friend claims it's because Harry was actually planning to turn Draco into a fervent denialist all along in order to accomplish some Master Manipulator stuff. Yeah, because Harry would have amassed that much experience thinking ahead during interactions with bigoted magical nobility while living in suburban Britain with his physicist parents :-/]

And if Yudkowsky was a serious AI researcher (an extremely rare and reportedly beautiful creature actually, much like the unicorn), he'd have more respect for his own reputation and he'd *first* learn to write properly under some pseudonym ;-) before embarrassing himself under his real name.

My least favourite aspect of that Haruhi fic isn't the BayesianSingularity stuff (I knew exactly what to expect there, I was just sort of surprised that he chose to target the Haruhi fandom), but the moment where Haruhi puts on a blouse that reveals her cleavage (or the chest just above her cleavage or whatever). At which point it becomes apparent (if the Christianity/God stuff didn't make that painfully obvious) that he isn't even trying to identify and be consistent with how different cultures work. Not that you wouldn't see that kind of blouse in Japan somewhere, just not on Haruhi, not in that context...

I'm actually considering doing an even more detailed dissection of "Riddle of Kyon" in the reviews section, to analyze how it works as an evangelism piece for Singularitarianism (what about for Bayesianism? not so much), and completely fails to work as a story...

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PMYou get the idea. Since you're not using all caps, giving the content of his lecture, it sounds either like he's successfully worming himself into Kyon's confidence, or Kyon is overreacting.

That was mostly the source of my 'hatehatehate'. That and the birthmark, but the birthmark part was completely intentional :-)

Yeah, the birthmark part was intentional.

For the other, I was intenting it as more the Americanized shorthand for 'hey?' which is basically a 'ya know?', etc., so I'll go with 'am I right' etc.  I can see how it might not otherwise work so well. :p

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PMI think you misunderstood. It's not a question of narrative voice, I was saluting the fact that you're taking one-dimensional chibi fanservice characters and trying to give plausible in-story justifications for why they would exist in the first place.

Oh.  Yeah, totally misunderstood.

...though, lampshading is reflexive on my part, too. >_>

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PM

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 05:59:40 PMGrrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

Yeah, wow, your ff.net review was about 500% nicer than your opinion here. But yeah, Yudkowsky has a talent for taking characters and turning them into extremely wooden and unlikeable mouthpieces for his worldview. His Harry Potter fic does that in spades (and Harry isn't exactly a likeable character to begin with).

On good days, I can resist being incredibly rude. ._.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PMI'm not so sure Yudkowsky knows what he's doing either... if he was so Bayesian he'd figure out what exactly about his viewpoint makes people instantly (and even somewhat unfairly) classify him as a complete ** and figure out some way to compensate for it. He has his Harry Potter character actually do that (expend energy specifically into getting people to respect him), but it becomes painfully apparent the author doesn't understand how that kind of thing actually works in real life. I guess if he did he'd be far too busy taking over the world with his pet Friendly AI or something.

When I said that, though, about him knowing what he was doing, I meant (being really rude to him here): He was trolling/attacking people for enjoying in such simple, happy premises, because SCIENCE IS TRUTH.  In other words, that's an athiest's view of the logical conclusion of Haruhi (and we should feel bad for enjoying it, stupid magic-thinking people!).

He actually sent me a private e-mail not long ago about K:BDH, and commented on ... At a Glance before that -- this is the sum of my interactions with him.  He liked At a Glance, praising it for not using magic effectively (his review's still there on ff.net; very short).  For K:BDH, he told me in several places where I had made mistakes he hadn't in Methods of Rationality, (and that he'd also got them 'right' in his real life, just for my information (thanks, guy ... I don't have a problem with fictional harems; I don't want to know about your 'real' one)).

I tried to be polite ... I just thought it was funny he criticized me, "You broke the first rule of fanfiction; you gave Kyon a lightsaber without giving Ryouko the deathstar!"  Which ... eh.  But this is a digression.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PMAnd if Yudkowsky was a serious AI researcher (an extremely rare and reportedly beautiful creature actually, much like the unicorn), he'd have more respect for his own reputation and he'd *first* learn to write properly under some pseudonym ;-) before embarrassing himself under his real name.

Well, he can be capable as a scientist and unlikable as a person.

Consider it a sort of super-magnified aspergers.  Scientifically/technically skilled > even more socially/morally shifted from the norm.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 08:37:29 PMI'm actually considering doing an even more detailed dissection of "Riddle of Kyon" in the reviews section, to analyze how it works as an evangelism piece for Singularitarianism (what about for Bayesianism? not so much), and completely fails to work as a story...

Go nuts!  That's probably the best place to continue those parts of this discussion.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
When I said that, though, about him knowing what he was doing, I meant (being really rude to him here): He was trolling/attacking people for enjoying in such simple, happy premises, because SCIENCE IS TRUTH.  In other words, that's an athiest's view of the logical conclusion of Haruhi (and we should feel bad for enjoying it, stupid magic-thinking people!).

I don't think any rational person would want to spend their time trolling, if they were being forced to think seriously. I can understand a forum troll who isn't thinking about what they want to be doing with their life, but since the guy is supposed to be Bayesian he has actually no excuse.

So essentially what you perceive it as is that he is attacking people with this fic -- not for believing in God and magic, but for *reading stories* in which fantastical elements are used as *devices* to explore interesting human issues? Because ? If so, he has effectively defeated the entire point of atheism (not wasting precious brain cells on God or other metaphysical propositions irrelevant to day-to-day life) in favour of merely rerouting his fundamentalism circuitry to defend the metaphysical proposition that God doesn't exist. Most of the atheists I actually know are people who have succumbed to this particular fallacy.

I'm going to be charitable on this point and assume that he's not that much of a troll and maybe even not that much of a raging-fundamentalist-atheist (I'm deluding myself now, aren't I?) and the fic is just an ill-conceived, aspergery thought experiment.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
(thanks, guy ... I don't have a problem with fictional harems; I don't want to know about your 'real' one)

Really? He ended up trying to sell himself to you as an authority on polyamory? That's... absolutely hilarious.

Yudkowsky is probably the last blogger I'd expect to be giving anyone advice on getting laid. Give me Steve Pavlina any time. Or at least (bleah) Roissy.

Quote from: Brian on September 22, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
Well, he can be capable as a scientist and unlikable as a person.

Your last ditch attempt to be polite and defend him on that point ('hey, at least he's a scientist') seems to have pushed a button in me. I... wrote a long rant about this issue which was so angry and vitriolic that if I were a mod I'd consider banning myself from the forum for posting it. Especially since it no longer has anything to do with fanfiction. You can probably imagine most of it for yourself.

I think I'll go take a cold shower and then get drunk^H^H^H^H think about something more positive.

EDIT: hey, I just got a hilarious Madoka fic idea as a direct result of getting myself angry at this **hole. So I get to skip the getting drunk part now :-)))

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 09:40:47 PMI don't think any rational person would want to spend their time trolling, if they were being forced to think seriously. I can understand a forum troll who isn't thinking about what they want to be doing with their life, but since the guy is supposed to be Bayesian he has actually no excuse.

So essentially what you perceive it as is that he is attacking people with this fic -- not for believing in God and magic, but for *reading stories* in which fantastical elements are used as *devices* to explore interesting human issues? Because ? If so, he has effectively defeated the entire point of atheism (not wasting precious brain cells on God or other metaphysical propositions irrelevant to day-to-day life) in favour of merely rerouting his fundamentalism circuitry to defend the metaphysical proposition that God doesn't exist. Most of the atheists I actually know are people who have succumbed to this particular fallacy.

I'm going to be charitable on this point and assume that he's not that much of a troll and maybe even not that much of a raging-fundamentalist-atheist (I'm deluding myself now, aren't I?) and the fic is just an ill-conceived, aspergery thought experiment.

I often see malice when it isn't there; this is a side-effect of my rage disorder.

So, I could just be very offended and be over-projecting (hence my attempting to be a devil's advocate on the issue).

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 09:40:47 PMReally? He ended up trying to sell himself to you as an authority on polyamory? That's... absolutely hilarious.

Seriously. -_-

I'm not even interested in the regular kind, why would I possibly....

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 09:40:47 PMYour last ditch attempt to be polite and defend him on that point ('hey, at least he's a scientist') seems to have pushed a button in me. I... wrote a long rant about this issue which was so angry and vitriolic that if I were a mod I'd consider banning myself from the forum for posting it. Especially since it no longer has anything to do with fanfiction. You can probably imagine most of it for yourself.

I think I'll go take a cold shower and then get drunk^H^H^H^H think about something more positive.

Well, it was more of a rationalization to myself; trying to recant some of the earlier less-nice things, but....  Erm.

Well, I didn't like it either.  Anyway -- leave the drinking to me; I've already got some rum scheduled for tonight.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 22, 2011, 09:40:47 PMEDIT: hey, I just got a hilarious Madoka fic idea as a direct result of getting myself angry at this **hole. So I get to skip the getting drunk part now :-)))

I have a totally inexplicable urge to make some image files of Kyubei in profile with the caption, "FOR SCIENCE!"....

Damnit!

If Brian didn't post a link I know I shouldn't have looked. -_-

After a streetcar ride home and a very cold shower I figured out why it is I have this full-on hate for Yudkowsky which this discussion ended up revealing.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that actual people I know are having their lives actually ruined in slow motion by paying too much attention to this guy's ideas - on atheism, Friendly AI, or whatever - and not enough attention to things that should be their main priority right now. These are otherwise smart people who could, if they just got their priorities straight, be living incredibly interesting and successful lives.

Oh, and by sheer cosmic coincidence I ran into the Sasaki-type person I mentioned on the streetcar. I realized how ironic it is that, given sarsaparilla's comments, the person I know who's most like Sasaki is a grad student in psychology.

I like Yudkowsky. (I've also met him, once.) I think his friendly AI obsession is a pipe dream, but I think he's done some meaningful writing about science and ethics. (I observe his little psuedo-Bayesian community from the edges, basically.)

I guess my takeaway from Riddle of Kyon is, if you have someone who could be a powerful force for good (which Haruhi could be), but that person is unaware of his ability, you had better have a damn good reason for not making him aware. And that fic is about Kyon deciding he doesn't have a good enough reason anymore.

I see that this thread has derailed but just to put my two cents in the cart, I hadn't read the fic in question (The Riddle of Kyon) before and was completely unimpressed by what I found. An Author Tract with a Possession Sue, delivering the logic of a petulant three-year-old who doesn't understand why she can't live on candy and ice cream alone. I can't see how it is in any way related to Sasaki, but I guess that it was the whole point of bringing it up, right?

Quote from: Jon on September 23, 2011, 02:18:24 AMI guess my takeaway from Riddle of Kyon is, if you have someone who could be a powerful force for good (which Haruhi could be), but that person is unaware of his ability, you had better have a damn good reason for not making him aware.

That may have been the intention but it fails to get beyond the basic hypothesis. As an example of a deep philosophical and ethical treatise that actually manages to address the inherent problems and consequences of the premise I would suggest Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga, not anime).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 02:41:13 AMI see that this thread has derailed but just to put my two cents in the cart, I hadn't read the fic in question (The Riddle of Kyon) before and was completely unimpressed by what I found. An Author Tract with a Possession Sue, delivering the logic of a petulant three-year-old who doesn't understand why she can't live on candy and ice cream alone.

I laughed; that's the most succinct summary I've heard on it yet.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 02:41:13 AMI can't see how it is in any way related to Sasaki, but I guess that it was the whole point of bringing it up, right?

Ah, as much as there was a point, I believe so.  I just happened be annoyed at that fic, and then ... derailment.  Oops. >_>

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 02:41:13 AMAs an example of a deep philosophical and ethical treatise that actually manages to address the inherent problems and consequences of the premise I would suggest Miyazaki's Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga, not anime).

I wanted to summarize to someone what the Nausicaä anime was like once, and I think I came up with something like "it's basically Star Wars for environmentalists" (I mean the good parts of Star Wars). That's basically the level the anime operates on, as a gigantic well-structured aesop: only instead of one Dark side we had several sympathetic but wrong factions whose philosophies have flaws that inevitably lead to despair, and instead of the Light side we have Nausicaa whose philosophy is extremely difficult to swallow at first (unlike the generic Jedi claptrap in Star Wars) but winds up saving everyone's behinds from Mutually Assured Destruction via a bunch of implausibly spiffy action scenes :-)

The manga is significantly more interesting than that, but a tad bit uneven since the guy wrote it on and off for fifteen years, giving him enough time to change his style several times and go back and forth in terms of the message he was trying to deliver. It also went all over the place in terms of new and weird ideas - you had . (Yeah, this is basically an "anyone who hasn't should go read it immediately, there's close to a thousand of pages of crazy stuff that wasn't even remotely close to being in the anime" paragraph.) Moreover Miyazaki keeps switching the drawing style up as a ploy to keep himself interested in drawing it. People are still giving serious university lectures - in both Japan and North America - about what he did with it and why it worked so well in spite of the fact that he seems to be learning as he goes along and making a pile of amateur mistakes especially near the beginning.

After finishing Nausicaa I think he went back and filmed Mononoke-Hime to try to wrap the same ideas up into a package that wasn't this huge, rambling 15-year... thing.

The ending of the Nausicaä manga was one of the most-anticipated things in... the history of manga, and it was one of the most talked about things afterwards. It isn't anything like the way Miyazaki ends any of his movies, and he does really weird stuff with his movie endings already. (Consider the way the last two movies he personally directed - Howls Castle and Ponyo - wrapped up and compare with the standard Hollywood approach to things.) I guess the main thing I took away from the ending to Nausicaa the manga was (trying to keep the spoiler as vague as possible)



Yudkowsky, assuming him to do what he does seriously, is actually making the exact same mistake Miyazaki has his Scientists making. He's not on the level of actually being able to pull his master plan off, though, so many of Miyazaki's criticisms are punching somewhere way above Yudkowsky's stature. (They're meant more for actual scientists and leaders who do actual science and actually govern.)

Yudkowsky is indeed at the level of 'a petulant three-year-old' because apparently his brother died or some stupid nonsense like that and he never moved on and decided to develop this Master Plan to launch the Singularity so that no one ever has to die ever again. So in his fic Kyon is channeling Yudkowsky, which is why he sees Haruhi basically as a tool he can heavy-handedly manipulate to accomplish exactly that - force Haruhi to resurrect him and everyone else who ever died. So no, I think that there's too much wish fulfilment evident in "Riddle of Kyon" for the author to be writing a straightforward trollfic here. Yudkowsky's Kyon is really jarring, because in reality Kyon is supposed to be seeing Haruhi as a human being first and foremost, who just happens to be caught up in the vaguely defined reality warping powers nonsense, and canon-Kyon wouldn't ever consider taking Haruhi on a ride like that. Yudkowsky!Kyon on the other hand... is basically identical to Downfall!Koizumi in terms of how he looks at the situation. Man, that's a scary thought.

So Yudkowsky's actually a pretty interesting person, so long as you handle his ideas and writing at arm's length at all times.

Man, this discussion started with a mostly inconsequential crackfic by Brian and just keeps getting heavier and heavier doesn't it :-)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMYudkowsky is indeed at the level of 'a petulant three-year-old' because apparently his brother died or some stupid nonsense like that and he never moved on and decided to develop this Master Plan to launch the Singularity so that no one ever has to die ever again.

I read a novel a year or so ago whose major NPC was basically this, except replace "brother" with "first love", and the character was of Muslim heritage instead of Jewish.

But anyway, I have a strong sympathy for the viewpoint that "no one should ever have to die ever again". If you ever want to talk about the Singularity and/or transhumanism; I'm down. Probably not in this thread, though.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMYudkowsky!Kyon on the other hand... is basically identical to Downfall!Koizumi in terms of how he looks at the situation.

That ... is actually a pretty astute observation, and impressingly enough it almost puts the thread back on rails again!

As a side note, my assessment of the story was written in a tone that was unnecessarily acerbic, as I felt a definite vibe of narcissistic hubris which is probably my most obvious personal squick.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMMan, this discussion started with a mostly inconsequential crackfic by Brian and just keeps getting heavier and heavier doesn't it :-)

"This is your thread on crack?" :p

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMThe ending of the Nausicaä manga was one of the most-anticipated things in... the history of manga, and it was one of the most talked about things afterwards. It isn't anything like the way Miyazaki ends any of his movies, and he does really weird stuff with his movie endings already. (Consider the way the last two movies he personally directed - Howls Castle and Ponyo - wrapped up and compare with the standard Hollywood approach to things.) I guess the main thing I took away from the ending to Nausicaa the manga was[....]

All I could contribute was, "I liked that; I re-read it every few years, still...."

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMYudkowsky is indeed at the level of 'a petulant three-year-old' because apparently his brother died or some stupid nonsense like that and he never moved on and decided to develop this Master Plan to launch the Singularity so that no one ever has to die ever again. So in his fic Kyon is channeling Yudkowsky, which is why he sees Haruhi basically as a tool he can heavy-handedly manipulate to accomplish exactly that - force Haruhi to resurrect him and everyone else who ever died. So no, I think that there's too much wish fulfilment evident in "Riddle of Kyon" for the author to be writing a straightforward trollfic here. Yudkowsky's Kyon is really jarring, because in reality Kyon is supposed to be seeing Haruhi as a human being first and foremost, who just happens to be caught up in the vaguely defined reality warping powers nonsense, and canon-Kyon wouldn't ever consider taking Haruhi on a ride like that.

Well, like I said; I often attribute malice when there is none, especially when it offends my sensibilities.  So, I can see him as being misguided instead of ignorant.  Beyond that, yes, I agree:

The Haruhi novels are a story about Haruhi growing as a person; that story feels like Kyon is discarding all of that as 'not good enough.'

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMMan, this discussion started with a mostly inconsequential crackfic by Brian and just keeps getting heavier and heavier doesn't it :-)

Well, that's starting to bely the 'inconsequentiality,' but this is very interesting conversation; at least it's still relevant to the characters and our understanding of them, so I find there's still a lot of positive takeaway here.

Especially with cooler heads than mine prevailing to actually consider things. ;)

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 06:46:05 AM

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 05:57:39 AMYudkowsky!Kyon on the other hand... is basically identical to Downfall!Koizumi in terms of how he looks at the situation.

That ... is actually a pretty astute observation, and impressingly enough it almost puts the thread back on rails again!

I didn't really think about it, but that's very true.  I was trying to think if there was some nuance I missed, some subtlety in difference, but it's pretty much spot on.  Both are fairly specifically 'Utopia Justifies the Means,' and both seek to reduce Haruhi from being her own person, to (largely) being a tool 'for the greater good.'

Admittedly, I presented the concept as a cruel manipulation.  And tagged it 'horror'.  ._.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 06:46:05 AMAs a side note, my assessment of the story was written in a tone that was unnecessarily acerbic, as I felt a definite vibe of narcissistic hubris which is probably my most obvious personal squick.

I felt that, too, though it hit my trigger too spot-on for me to easily articulate why it upset me; I'm very appreciative of the additional perspectives that you, Arakawa, and Jon have provided to help me look beyond my own biases; that's greatly appreciated.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 06:46:05 AM"This is your thread on crack?" :p

And one for the quote list.  ^_^

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
All I could contribute was, "I liked that; I re-read it every few years, still...."

Yes, trying to discuss Miyazaki on an anime forum is more often than not akin to walking up to a bunch of hardened rock music listeners and explaining to them that there's this awesome band, it's called the Beatles... :-\

I was sort of surprised to see sarsaparilla bringing it up, but the connection makes about 46% sense to me (which is enough for me to proceed to pompously pontificate on it, apparently). Nausicaa started out as a manga about ecology, but then Miyazaki was forced to make his themes more and more abstract, until the ending ended up being an aesop about human progress in general, which means that he painted himself (by introducing all that retro-futuristic biotechnology stuff) into a corner with all the newfangled Singularity theorists writing fiction about that exact topic, whose views on the problem (even for the pessimistic thinkers) were completely at odds with Miyazaki's. Although of course Nausicaa ended up getting its message out several years before Singularity took off as a really raging Internet fad (I think - I became sort of aware of it as an active annoyance, rather than just some weird fringe idea, only mid-2000s), and said message was promptly ignored by everyone because it's buried at the very end of a thousand-page manga epic about a tree-hugging warrior princess...

The fact that Miyazaki ended up inadvertently writing in a genre he wasn't expecting to, might explain somewhat why the man's publically stated opinion on science fiction then became roughly "science fiction sucks by definition, people use it mostly as a vehicle for stupid anxieties about the future, I'm not touching it with a ten-foot pole anymore."

Hmm... I think I'll strongly recommend the manga to my Yudkowsky-obsessed friend sometime. Not sure if he'll bite (he saw the movie with me and didn't seem too impressed) or if he'll manage to slog through the Buddhist spaghetti western stuff to the part that I specifically would like him to think about...

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
Well, that's starting to bely the 'inconsequentiality,'

Good point. Amend that to 'seemingly inconsequential'...

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
I was trying to think if there was some nuance I missed, some subtlety in difference, but it's pretty much spot on.

Actually, having seen the parallel I can also be the one to show where the analogy falls apart.

Downfall!Kyon (let's call him that) has a very imaginative plan based on many years of thinking by Yudkowsky, and unlike Downfall!Koizumi Kyon throws away his life pre-emptively (as opposed to sticking around until Haruhi sets him permanently on fire *wince* -- actually, there's another parallel to the Doctor buried in there now that I think of it). So Yudkowsky ends up unintentionally conveying the idea that not only is Downfall!Kyon manipulative, he's also a completely obsessed fanatic.

It's like the perfect recipe for crafting a fic that will leave people thoroughly squicked with no idea as to why...

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
Admittedly, I presented the concept as a cruel manipulation.  And tagged it 'horror'.  ._.

Again, Downfall!Koizumi simply tells Haruhi the same unimaginative lie over and over again for many years until she's caught on. Whereas once we stop using Yudkowsky's sympathetic lens, we see that Downfall!Kyon manages to somehow perform the moral equivalent of Downfall!Koizumi's many years of cynical emotional manipulation, and then some, in all of fifteen minutes.

I remember now that Yudkowsky tried to somehow shoehorn this weird fanatic into Kyon's shoes by making it so that the Riddle of Epicurus makes Haruhi's brain want to asplode or whatever and so Kyon has a very strict time limit to fix the situation. Eeeeeeeeeeeenh? It implies that somehow Haruhi has managed to go through almost three entire years of high school without once considering the topic?

BONUS LINK: Eeeeh? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tiu5fJMI4UE

(I think we all need a bit of completely mindless comic relief at this point after gazing for so long into the abyss that is "Riddle of Kyon".)

Hey, I've thought of yet another way to look at Yudkowsky's Haruhi fic. Maybe this is his explanation of why he thinks Christianity/Haruhiism/insert the existence of whatever God, is such an awful notion. Because, by Yudkowsky's twisted reasoning, if Haruhi existed we'd be morally obligated to cut off her head and use it to grant the Emperor immortality or whatever...

Again, I have so many theories because I have this friend who I argue with on this exact topic. It's gotten so that I understand the Bayesian position on things so well I can anticipate most of his arguments before they come out of his mouth. (Well, very occasionally the arguments turn out to be so stupid that I never even considered anticipating them...)

Because I'm trying way too hard to be Canadian, I'm not allowed to be impolite and tell him bluntly that Yudkowsky is just some douchebag with a blog account and a spiffy-but-not-very-useful take on using Bayesian inference in everyday life and that he should just stop taking important life advice from the guy already.

Additionally, just throwing out a completely random notion: probably my favourite moment about the Nausicaa ending is when the King of Whatever Country Kushana Is A Princess Of (I... forgot all of the weird place names in that thing) says something like



It's just a really awesome 'let's just pause and connect the dots on this thing' kind of moment.

I guess that I'm late to the party, as I wasn't really aware of most of the stuff mentioned, especially historical background, but yes, I brought up Nausicaä because of the last third or so of the story which pretty decisively deconstructs the idea of a 'rational utopia'.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 03:01:12 PMSo Yudkowsky ends up unintentionally conveying the idea that not only is Downfall!Kyon manipulative, he's also a completely obsessed fanatic.

Now that you mentioned it I agree, although personally I saw a mental image of the aforementioned three-year-old toppling over her porridge bowl and stating that if mom doesn't give ice cream instead then she's evil for letting her precious toddler die of hunger.

As my possibly final, weak effort to return to the original topic, this Bayesian talk started from the observation of Sasaki's disregard for wishful thinking. I think that it is somehow ironic because I see (and as I have mentioned, I'm using myself as the most reliable proxy I know when analyzing Sasaki) all this singularity stuff as just another form of wishful thinking, only trying to invoke 'logic' instead of 'magic' without realizing that logic is just another tool. You put manure in, you get manure out. A non-wishful way of thinking suggests that one should approach issues with the proper amount of respect and humility, a test that Yudkowsky!Kyon fails quite spectacularly.

Just to touch on the Singularity issue, most people misrepresent that point anyway.

'Singularity' means 'When we have made a computer that can design a better computer faster than we can.'  Everyone seems to think that the second singularity is achieved, we'll suddenly leap forward decades in technology.

We won't.

We'll just tip the angle of Moore's Law slightly, and even then, we're actually running into real hard limitations on computing (Ie., drives cannot spin much faster, which is the main way to improve their performance, etc.).  Having this new improved design ability is great and all, but we still have real-world limitations to build these better machines.

Bringing it back into line with the discussion and how it applies to Sasaki, I don't actually see her buying into it, either.  I suppose that means she would denounce it as little more than science-based wishful thinking.  Even so, I expect she'd understand the idea a lot better than most people.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 03:59:11 PM

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 03:01:12 PMSo Yudkowsky ends up unintentionally conveying the idea that not only is Downfall!Kyon manipulative, he's also a completely obsessed fanatic.

Now that you mentioned it I agree, although personally I saw a mental image of the aforementioned three-year-old toppling over her porridge bowl and stating that if mom doesn't give ice cream instead then she's evil for letting her precious toddler die of hunger.

I pin the 'fanatic' part on (haven't memorized the phenomes; too lazy to check) the author's own atheism and his difficulty respecting the viewpoint of people who are capable of faith.  He couldn't find a middle ground, so projected his image onto Kyon.

That means he may not have intended the disrespectful representation he shared ... it's just how he actually sees things.

And that's actually more depressing than the story itself.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 23, 2011, 03:59:11 PMAs my possibly final, weak effort to return to the original topic, this Bayesian talk started from the observation of Sasaki's disregard for wishful thinking. I think that it is somehow ironic because I see (and as I have mentioned, I'm using myself as the most reliable proxy I know when analyzing Sasaki) all this singularity stuff as just another form of wishful thinking, only trying to invoke 'logic' instead of 'magic' without realizing that logic is just another tool. You put manure in, you get manure out. A non-wishful way of thinking suggests that one should approach issues with the proper amount of respect and humility, a test that Yudkowsky!Kyon fails quite spectacularly.

Mm.  Indeed.  And ... I've reiterated a point you already made.  Heh. >_>;;

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 03:01:12 PMActually, having seen the parallel I can also be the one to show where the analogy falls apart.

Downfall!Kyon (let's call him that) has a very imaginative plan based on many years of thinking by Yudkowsky, and unlike Downfall!Koizumi Kyon throws away his life pre-emptively (as opposed to sticking around until Haruhi sets him permanently on fire *wince* -- actually, there's another parallel to the Doctor buried in there now that I think of it). So Yudkowsky ends up unintentionally conveying the idea that not only is Downfall!Kyon manipulative, he's also a completely obsessed fanatic.

See, I can see that applied to Koizumi over years.

Hard to wrap my head around Kyon suddenly reaching this conclusion, deciding it's right, and then forcing it on someone else.  That's just so against his character in almost every way....

Anyway.  Both are basically the same insofar as they're presented as believing they're doing the right thing.  Kyon just happens to be jarringly OOC to be capable of it. >_>;;

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 23, 2011, 03:01:12 PMBecause I'm trying way too hard to be Canadian, I'm not allowed to be impolite and tell him bluntly that Yudkowsky is just some douchebag with a blog account and a spiffy-but-not-very-useful take on using Bayesian inference in everyday life and that he should just stop taking important life advice from the guy already.

Mm.  I believe the cliche (if somewhat ruder than you're used to) phrase for that is:

Though, for what it's worth ... I agree with you.

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 04:29:13 PM
Mm.  I believe the cliche (if somewhat ruder than you're used to) phrase for that is:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Opinions are like assholes.  Everyone has one.  Everyone thinks theirs doesn't stink.

Heard that one before.

Which is exactly why I'm not attempting to force my opinion on him. Just attempting to come up with really weird and entirely hypothetical objections to his worldview as a form of mutual entertainment, while carefully dancing around the actual issue...

Quote from: Brian on September 23, 2011, 04:29:13 PM
Just to touch on the Singularity issue, most people misrepresent that point anyway.

'Singularity' means 'When we have made a computer that can design a better computer faster than we can.'  Everyone seems to think that the second singularity is achieved, we'll suddenly leap forward decades in technology.

We won't.

We'll just tip the angle of Moore's Law slightly, and even then, we're actually running into real hard limitations on computing (Ie., drives cannot spin much faster, which is the main way to improve their performance, etc.).  Having this new improved design ability is great and all, but we still have real-world limitations to build these better machines.

I would like to disagree with this claim, but this thread doesn't seem the best place to do so. Perhaps over a beer at Ye Olde Tavern.