Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

(http://i42.tinypic.com/23hlsw7.jpg)

For whatever reason, it seems prudent to start with a picture of Yasumi Watahashi, as shown above. This was timed over 25 minutes, to avoid the "this picture is good because I spent four hours working on it" effect, and it should give an idea of what I can manage if I concentrate intently and have a reference image with almost the exact same pose in front of me. (Although, the few Yasumi illustrations that exist out there, aren't even an ideal reference in my opinion -- a few details such as eye placement cry out to be changed, which I probably did with all the subtlety of Akane adjusting seasonings.)

To see what I come up with when I'm not copying a reference, shift your gaze left to my forum avatar. Frankly, every time I look at her, I think "what the hell is going on with those ears?"

Basically, I would like to get better at this sort of thing. Taking an evening art class (mostly involving sitting in a room where clothed women are drawing pictures of naked women, of course) helped make me aware of some basic principles, and convince me that I'm capable of this on some level (mostly when coming around to check on my progress the instructor just nods sagely, says "Hm, good", and swiftly moves on to some other person who's having more trouble with the specific exercise than I am).

However, the issue is that I have no idea how to get from point A (art class) to point B (let's say, as a start, being able to struggle my way through a simple doujin), i.e. how to structure my work so that I actually improve rapidly. Randomly doodling things all day is a valid route to improvement, of course, but it ends up feeling like instead of tolerably learning 90% of the things I need to proceed, I've obsessively learned 40% of what I need, and the remaining 50% is stuff that I have no clue even exists. The amount of time I've spent on unstructured doodling of ears has surprised even me and made me briefly suspect that I was developing some kind of strange ear fetish.

(I guess that's something to test out once my life simplifies sufficiently to allow romantic involvement? Meh.)

Anyhow, I hear there might be a couple of artists around here, and I was wondering if they might be willing to share some general experiences of where they started from and what helped them improve. I know picking on specific people to help is not exactly in the spirit of Soulriders, but it should be obvious that I'm kind of hoping sarsaparilla has time to put in her two cents, for instance. I don't know who else on Soulriders does drawing in their spare time, frankly.

If I figure out a structure to work within, and figure out a good method of uploading pictures (tinypic looks like a decent provisional solution for the moment), I should certainly be able to regale this forum with my further progress.

Interesting.  I just finished unpacking my books, so I have some titles I could suggest (as I unpacked them; if you lived closer, I'd lend them to you); I fail in all ways as an artist, as I learned after getting the series, but they were informative anyway:

http://www.howtodrawmanga.com/howtodraw/books.html

Can't offer much better advice than this personally, I'm afraid. :x  Good luck, though. :)

Already have Manga University, so I know that's a good recommendation :-) -- found it through this forum, actually.

No, trust me, learning materials I have no shortage of:

• Robert Beverley Hale -- extremely intimidating 'classical style' drawing. Right now, this guy's method is way too hardcore for me. Their first suggested exercise is to draw a thousand circles (well, it's sort of half-joking, but still). He also says to buy a bunch of human bones. (Yes, actual bones from dead humans. They're not that hard to obtain, allegedly. He's 100% serious and insistent on this.) If I had ten hours a day to devote to Robert Beverley Hale, I'd definitely follow his advice, though.
• Preston-Blair Animation -- which is good at construction, but focuses on mostly squashy-stretchy Western style. Still, I need to figure out a way to get through it because it seems to be excellent at explaining construction, which is entirely backwards from how the art class teaches us to do things. I did the Yasumi picture with the standard bunch of construction shortcuts, as I learned them off the first three pages of the Preston-Blair. (John K swears by these. Then again, while John K's animation style is technically very impressive, his character designs sometimes remind me of epileptic vomit.)
• Richard Williams Animation -- useless for doing a doujin, because it mostly focuses on how to move stuff.
• Manga University -- to some extent, a happy medium in between all of the above? It should serve to narrow my focus significantly to the stuff that is an actual requirement for drawing manga.

That's just the stuff that is interesting enough to keep in arm's reach on my shelf. No, thing is, I'm just mostly kind of lost as to what to do next...

Still, thanks for the support, I'll keep working at it...

Options for improving:
-Doodling (not that good for a variety of reasons, some which you already mentioned)
-Art books/tutorials/classes (there's that sticky with some tutorials in this board, though I think some of those links are likely dead at this point)
-Webcomics (you're your own worst critic especially if you know others are watching, and forcing yourself to a schedule makes sure you're constantly drawing, and also drawing with a purpose means you know can tell where improvement is needed besides that 40% you're concerned with)
-More reference copies. Just find pictures that you like, art styles you want to imitate, try to draw those poses/characters until you're satisfied.

Unfortunately, a lot of the artists that used to hang out here in SR don't really hang out as much these days. For my part, I'm of a similar level of artistic ability as you, so I can't give more advice on improving as I've not really sought to improve either (I obsess over drawing eyes though, instead of ears).

Quote from: Merc on October 30, 2011, 12:39:32 AM
-Webcomics (you're your own worst critic especially if you know others are watching, and forcing yourself to a schedule makes sure you're constantly drawing, and also drawing with a purpose means you know can tell where improvement is needed besides that 40% you're concerned with)

Right, the usual modus operandi seems to be to start a webcomic, and I'm perfectly aware that many people start webcomics with a much less developed art style than what I have right now.

At some point, though, they inevitably burn out and revert to a twice a month update schedule... because they know that their art is bad? because it takes too many hours to get a panel to come out decently? I dunno, but that approach seems to have a huge attrition rate. A very few manage to persevere. I mean, going from this:

http://egscomics.com/?date=2002-01-21

To this:

http://egscomics.com

Is fairly impressive, but not everyone manages it. It seems like the odds are stacked against me.

(Although I saw the guy's behind the scenes notes, and the amount of technical crutches he uses that I don't want to end up relying on is quite staggering.)

So maybe I should think of something that's not as shaming as a publically-viewable webcomic (that becomes permanently associated -- even with my pen name, actually, is not something I want to happen), but which still pushes me in the same direction. Provisional idea for long term mulling over: anyone up for having Soulriders-only doujins inflicted on their eyeballs on a regular basis? (One other trap I *really* want to avoid is suckering myself into drawing some never-ending, amorphous... thing. It seems a good policy to cap whatever stories I try to draw at maybe 4 pages? Probably even one or two would be at the limit of my stamina.)

Drawing characters in a story context as opposed to just floating there with blank expressions is crucial, I agree -- I've heard that advice stated quite strongly and I intend to take it seriously. e.g. while drawing the above I tried to imagine Yasumi thinking about how she found the 'MIKURU' folder. (That should make the shortcomings in what I can manage to do at this stage more apparent, actually.)

Um ... okay.  One last possible shot:

http://www.scottmccloud.com/2-print/3-mc/index.html

I adore this guy's stuff; profound insight into the philosophy of art as visual storytelling, if you've already got the technical aspects of drawing down.  I can't recommend someone better than this, but that's ... yeah, that's all I think I can offer. ^_^

Not an artist.  But nosey.  See things I do.

Re Dan Shive/El Goonish Shive:
He tries to draw 4-5 full pages a week.  Crutches tend to be necessary if that's not your real job (and I'm pretty sure it isn't his.  Actually, apparently he works in a tennis shop as his day job).  He spent a lot of time building up a sketch library of character proportions and did go to an actual art school for training as well.  It also tends to be a matter of fact for anyone who's serious about producing considerable amounts within a deadline (even without full days to work on them).  Or throwing man power/factory style at the problem, but that's not where you're at :)  Crutches can be simple things: A pose or scene library for ready reference material, artwork done by similar artists to compare results from, 3d scenes for quick background handling, Posable dolls/clay for setting up nearby reference, etc.   Whatever is needed for it to be right within the first couple of tries, because they can't spend all week whipping up drafts until it feels right.  Doujin artists though sometimes can (as 

Actually, the majority of web comics that are drawn 4-5 days a week for 5+ years do tend to improve, but that's also a side effect of the fact they are spending like 20 hours a week for 5 years doing nothing but drawing and mostly drawing the same characters.  Any artistic skill at all is likely to grow a bit with that.

Anatomy, Framing, Color, Shading and Perspective courses are all pretty good baseline skill areas to be familiar with, even if manga style art usually does away with them (it is solidly not because they are unfamiliar with them at all).

sorry, my mind collapsed.  G'night.

Based on that particular drawing, it looks like your sense of proportion is adequate, which is a good thing because it's one of the harder skills to improve. Then, there are several easily reachable advances in general work flow, structure and linework, and after those also in rhythm.

I assume that you're using a drawing tablet? I would advise against using one at this stage, as it breaks the hand-eye coordination and essentially kills the line unless you're using a high-end tablet with proper brush definitions. Paper and pencil may be old school but they're still very effective for this kind of work.

I can certainly give C&C and directions for improvement, though my schedule might not be among the most punctual ones. At the moment I can say that the largest problem in the drawing is the arm. It is too thin and lacks proper structure. Unless you are extremely confident of your skills, you should always draw the characters nude first, and only then add clothes on top of that to avoid the 'porridge in pantyhose' symptom.

I'll be back once I get some time to grab my drawing equipment.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 05:01:52 AM
Based on that particular drawing, it looks like your sense of proportion is adequate, which is a good thing because it's one of the harder skills to improve. Then, there are several easily reachable advances in general work flow, structure and linework, and after those also in rhythm.

I assume that you're using a drawing tablet? I would advise against using one at this stage, as it breaks the hand-eye coordination and essentially kills the line unless you're using a high-end tablet with proper brush definitions. Paper and pencil may be old school but they're still very effective for this kind of work.

Ah, yes, good catch... tablets are certainly frustrating to work with, since in the end (regardless of what sort of line thickness you set) they tend to have all the subtlety and precision of a thick sharpie marker. I actually have a paper-and-pencil 'draft' of this same picture which is... I don't know... maybe more off-model and with slightly stronger character? (No, actually a complete mess.) Same with my avatar, I sketched it with pen and paper and actually traced it onto my tablet (discovering in the process that with my screen size it actually compresses things vertically, which is another strike against it).

For Yasumi, I needed to use a tablet because, just like my initial impulse to begin posting on Soulriders, I felt I needed to act on this idea quickly before I'd talked myself out of it, and my scanner is presently in a box downstairs >_<

I'll try to get my scanner working properly as soon as I can and try to show you, and to avoid using the tablet in future.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 05:01:52 AM
I can certainly give C&C and directions for improvement, though my schedule might not be among the most punctual ones.

I'd say that's inevitable given our relative locations. I mean, I actually do some time-critical English language proofreading work (so, C&C?) for a bunch of people just one time zone (EDIT: maybe two time zones, actually) over from you in Moscow, and more often than not I can only manage to get a turnaround time of one day. That's for something on which I stake my professional reputation, to some extent.

So I have absolutely no expectation that you would be able or willing to offer advice in anything close to real-time, that would be just plain disrespectful of me. I'm just glad that you're willing to help at all; accepting that help seems worthwhile on my part. (For example: I have no idea what rhythm is, at the moment, nor how I would go about achieving it.)

QuoteAt the moment I can say that the largest problem in the drawing is the arm. It is too thin and lacks proper structure.

*wince* Quite true. The arm is clearly pointing one way and the elbow is somewhere else entirely. Again, this is an example of what I end up doing with limited time and no reference (the arm and hand were re-posed from the original reference, shown below):

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110804234604/haruhi/images/thumb/a/af/YasumiWatahashi_1741.png/180px-YasumiWatahashi_1741.png)

Anyhow, thanks to everyone who responded. Even Drac pitched in (until his mind collapsed, whatever that means -- I hope it's not a painful condition) -- one of my exact worries is getting roped into drawing some specific set of characters for 5+ years, which... to me, doesn't seem like a good strategy for improvement in the long term.

And special thanks go to Brian, as well, for pointing out the huge Scott McCloud-shaped hole in my library :-G

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 06:36:01 AMAnyhow, thanks to everyone who responded. Even Drac pitched in (until his mind collapsed, whatever that means -- I hope it's not a painful condition) -- one of my exact worries is getting roped into drawing some specific set of characters for 5+ years, which... to me, doesn't seem like a good strategy for improvement in the long term.

Means he's sleepy. :p

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 06:36:01 AMAnd special thanks go to Brian, as well, for pointing out the huge Scott McCloud-shaped hole in my library :-G

I remember picking up a few useful things from him -- most of what he offers is more about structure than technique, but not being a real artist, it's the extent of what I know. :p

Okay, I think that it is essential to start from the ground up, and the most important thing to discuss is structure.

(http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n621/sarsaparilla/structure.jpg)

In essence, structure is the glue that combines individual details into a unified whole. If the structure is missing or weak, the drawing will fall apart. Conversely, once a competently crafted structure exists, all the rest is a piece of cake. Because structure is something that is hidden behind the finished work, it may take some time to learn to see it properly. Basically, it is the skill of progressively deconstructing a complex shape into simpler ones, until everything can be represented with (two- and three-dimensional) geometric objects that are simple enough that it is possible to rotate them arbitrarily in your mind, and compare their proportions to each other.

For anatomically correct drawings, you actually start by drawing the skeleton, then add muscles on top of that, then add skin and other surface details on top of that, then add clothes and whatever else is needed on top of that. For more stylized work, you start with a set of geometric primitives like the ones in my quick sketch above. Regardless of which scheme suits you best, you should always, always start by analyzing the structure of the object in question and then draw it first.

The importance of structure is one of the reasons for why one shouldn't try to learn drawing by copying manga. While there are mangaka who have a solid sense of structure, the field is rife with even professional artists who fail miserably in this regard, and the most common manga styles actually foster a culture of bad drawing, as characters are reduced to mere symbols that have a very tenuous relation to actual human anatomy. E.g., while Noizi Itou can sometimes draw surprisingly sensitive and charming images, she can just as well fail quite spectacularly because of her weak sense of structure (that image of Yasumi is somewhat defective, as well).

Are there any specific questions related to structure? If not, a good exercise would be to draw the structure of those three objects (a hand, a head and a body) in some other pose / perspective of your own choosing. All of them are essential objects with their specific idiosyncrasies.

*chirping cicadas*

Um ... I wonder if there's something wrong with what I wrote in the previous message. Is it too elementary? Too advanced? Too deep in the left field? If my attempt at being helpful actually isn't, then please let me know where I'm missing the mark and I'll try to adjust.

Oh... uh. My apologies for not responding earlier!

*frantic formal bow*

I was hoping to actually respond when I'd drawn something and scanned it, which... it turns out, ended up taking a while (this is very much a side project) *sigh*

What you've drawn is actually very helpful, especially in terms of providing direction for what to focus on. It occurs to me that uploading too much of what I've been working on is probably not a good thing to attempt (thus far I have a page or so of attempted hand constructions, which is probably way too much to critique in detail). In that case, I should probably be able to dig up my scanner when I get home later today and show you one of each (hand, skull, and *shivers nervously* whole body). Later today translates to, uh... very late at night your time. Just so you know what to expect now.

Since I now know that you're concerned regarding that sort of thing, in future if you suggest an exercise I'll try and get back immediately with a timeframe for when I hope to complete it.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 01, 2011, 11:44:47 AM
Since I now know that you're concerned regarding that sort of thing, in future if you suggest an exercise I'll try and get back immediately with a timeframe for when I hope to complete it.

Actually, I was only worried that I might have written something that is so unhelpful as to be completely useless. On this topic I'm self-trained which means that I have only a very vague understanding on how other people approach it, and thus I might be completely wrong with my assumptions.

If you found the exercise useful then please take all the time that you want before uploading the results.

Okay, thus far... attempting to set clear goals and work through things logically is yielding an inconclusive result. (As in, I can't definitively tell that it's working, and I can't definitively say it isn't. Thus the logical solution is to keep doing it.) Best case -- there's something obvious one can notice in the first two seconds that I'm missing that I should be doing, which I can start doing.

Let's start with hands, which are the component I feel most confident with at present:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/t98swo.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2a82emr.jpg)

A few more hands were done in pen while on the go, a while ago now:


Next we have body proportions (who am I kidding), mostly done from photo references.


Skull construction, I'm not yet sufficiently satisfied with to upload just yet. Surprisingly, I'm having the most difficulty with it; if I can't figure any obvious improvements out, I'll upload what I have in a couple of days, but it's really miserable right now and I think I can improve it if I slow down and try to work logically.

Also, note to the mods: if this is too many images which are too big (they're hosted on tinypic... but it might still be bad etiquette for those with slow browsers/connections?) please feel free to whack me and then I will do something to resize them.

Those aren't bad, but I would point out that your thumbs are generally drawn way too long. They should be 1/2 to maybe 2/3 the size they are now. Some of the thumbs are better in the pen drawing, though a lot of those poses feel a little more unnatural as well.

Also, I think anybody going into these threads expects some large pictures, that is the whole point of an art forum. Go ahead and keep 'em big! =p

@Arakawa:

Overall, the body sketches are better than the hand sketches, but I'll get back to the body later. Right now the most essential thing is that your sketches reveal a specific fundamental weakness: your sense of whole is not on par with other basic skills. This can be seen most clearly from thumbs that are out of proportion, and in body sketches from entire hands that are out of proportion. What happens is that when you concentrate on a particular detail that is conceptually separate from the rest of the object (thumb for hand, hand for body), you see only that specific detail as such, not as a part of the whole.

This is one of the issues that is often referred to as right/left brain hemisphere thinking, and the best known book about the differences and how to take advantage of them is Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards. Recommended, of course.

There are exercises for learning this skill, both in the mentioned book and described on various drawing related pages around the net. Very roughly, you must learn to 'unfocus' your brain a bit while drawing so that you never lose sight of the whole. You could try croquis (speed sketching), drawing from upside-down reference pictures, or just unfocusing your eyes to keep the reference image and the drawing blurry until you can perceive the whole image simultaneously.

Contrary to appearances, I am in fact slaving away at head construction. (That, and I am also fiddling around with minor facial details for amusement's sake. I have managed to convince myself that Japanese people in anime do, in fact, look Japanese.)

Bit sensitive to post anything at the moment, but just a quick question for sarsaparilla based on the specific construction example she gave:

I notice to place the nose you seem to have used a pair of faint construction lines extending from the ears (similar to, but apparently independent of, the jaw line). I can see that these help locate where the nose should be, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the logic behind them is. (i.e. once the lines are placed, drawing the nose is easy. I can't figure out what logic to use to place the lines, though.) I've wound up giving up and just drawing an alternative line following the front teeth (which are fixed in place to the skull and thus easy to picture!) and then placing the nose however I can manage in between the teeth and browline. If I'm not paying attention, this generally results in skulls that are vertically elongated compared to the original (for whatever reason, possibly just the poor gestalt perception you already noted).

So I'm wondering if you could comment on the method you used to place the nose in your drawing.

Note: will swallow pride and upload a couple of pages that are relevant to the above.

Head construction: good example of my elongated skull problem with the non-hideous one at the bottom of the page.


This is just some random stuff, but regarding what I said regarding people in anime looking Japanese -- two eyes on the far right are: above, marked δ is my own; below, marked ε is a more typical (Asian-looking) Ghibli eye of the same size. The penny basically dropped for me after drawing that. (Watch for the next installment of 'Arakawa learns something everyone else knows already...' any day now.)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 02, 2012, 12:58:14 PM
I notice to place the nose you seem to have used a pair of faint construction lines extending from the ears (similar to, but apparently independent of, the jaw line). I can see that these help locate where the nose should be, but I can't for the life of me figure out what the logic behind them is. (i.e. once the lines are placed, drawing the nose is easy. I can't figure out what logic to use to place the lines, though.)

It looks like you are referring to an auxiliary feature that doesn't have anything to do with the nose. Actually, it's the lower part of a circle that I drew first to fix the scale of the head. The upper half of the circle became the cranium; the lower half the is superficial part, and something that is not needed for anything beyond a sense of scale.

Although it's not drawn in my example, the easiest way to determine the position of the nose is to imagine a triangle with the centers of the eyes and the tip of the nose as vertices. Look at the model and observe whether the triangle is equilateral, or if not, what are the relative lengths of the eye-to-eye line and the eye-to-nose lines. If necessary, after fixing the eyes (or just orbs as in my example), draw that triangle (in proper perspective if necessary) to find the location of the tip of the nose.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 02, 2012, 12:58:14 PMIf I'm not paying attention, this generally results in skulls that are vertically elongated compared to the original

Based on the examples that you provided, I don't find the overall shape of the faces particularly elongated (though the originals may have been rounder). The major issue is that in some sketches the cheeks are drawn way too low, which does indeed give an impression of an elongated face. It might be helpful to have a look at a human skull and study the general shape and location of cheekbones that are the main subsurface feature that determines the cheek profile.

Overall, these sketches hold together much better than the previous ones; there is hardly any scale discrepancy.

Considering eyes, the distinctive feature of the 'asian eye' is the epicanthic fold, and it's very illuminating to study actual human anatomy to understand the structural difference that it represents. However, the most striking differences between the caucasoid and mongoloid face reside in the side profile which is also worth studying from actual images of people of different ethnic origins.

It's something about the slope or shape of the jaw, is it not?  That's what I notice with my mother's side of the family; the teeth seem bigger, but I know they can't be bigger, so I can only imagine the space they have to occupy is less or emphasizes them in some way.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 02, 2012, 05:14:03 PM
It looks like you are referring to an auxiliary feature that doesn't have anything to do with the nose. Actually, it's the lower part of a circle that I drew first to fix the scale of the head. The upper half of the circle became the cranium; the lower half the is superficial part, and something that is not needed for anything beyond a sense of scale.

Ah. It seems that by sheer coincidence, in that particular drawing it took two tries to get the bottom half of the circle and the tip of the nose fell in between the two lines... which made me confused, since I thought this meant the lines and nose were related somehow. My bad. No wonder I had no clue what structure I could correlate them to.

In general, starting with a circle gives me a solid sense of the eyes and upper face, and leads me to get confused as to the width of the point where the jaw attaches and then the subsequent angle at which it descends towards the chin -- I seem to make it very narrow, to the extent of actually carving into the sides of the circle. (Based on your reaction to the drawings this seems to be a valid thing to do by choice if designing a character, but when copying from a reference it's obviously an error.) I'll see if explicitly indicating the structure of the cheekbones when constructing the face will help me control this better.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 02, 2012, 05:14:03 PM
Considering eyes, the distinctive feature of the 'asian eye' is the epicanthic fold, and it's very illuminating to study actual human anatomy to understand the structural difference that it represents. However, the most striking differences between the caucasoid and mongoloid face reside in the side profile which is also worth studying from actual images of people of different ethnic origins.

I've got about as far as observing that the presence of an epicanthic fold has to do with the relative prominence of the brow and eyeball. There's a certain amount of skin around the eye socket; if the brow is prominent, the skin is stretched to wrap around the eyeball and expose the tear duct; if the brow is fairly flat  then the skin folds over the corner of the eye instead. Since the Asians don't have a monopoly on flat brows, epicanthic folds can be encountered in all sorts of populations. (Particularly when you look at children.) -- and beyond just the broad caucasian/mongoloid eye types, there's a wide range of gradations in how tightly the skin wraps around the eye.

Dammit! Some of the uploads are disappearing off tinypic already!

Okay... here's a more mundane question for the next time I get around to asking feedback: what kind of image hosting can people recommend for this sort of material?

Imgur. They're solid as far as I've used them. http://imgur.com/

Alright! Hopefully they'll stay solid when I start using the site.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Stick figures that are supposed to exist in space more-or-less convincingly.

Probably my best batch


Misc - drawn from imagination


Misc - sketched haphazardly during bus commute


My question to those who can give advice (if anyone is willing) is whether it's worthwhile trying to get the stick figures looking better than they are right now, or to quit dawdling with this exercise and move on to making them look a bit more solid than they are now. (i.e. cylindrical shapes for the limbs instead of sticks, a more well-defined torso, etc.)

I claim no particular artistic experience.  The following is my uneducated opinion.

My opinion would be to keep experimenting with the stick figures, as it feels to me that the proportions could be polished up.  If you continue fleshing them out, they're just going to look quite a bit awkward and require a massive amount of redrawing to get proportions just right.

But yeah, fix proportions, and get experiment with different ones, like "this is a teenaged girl because of hip width and shoulder width" and "this is an older man with a hunched back" and "this is a young boy in the middle of puberty with all the knobbly knees and slightly longer arms and legs, and not very comfortable in his own skin".