Identity is post-manga
Ranma trilogy in progress--book one is already completed, and at this point, I'm starting the second. I'm a little hesitant about this, considering that this means there's a lot of backstory would take a long time for any commenter to digest, but I felt like my experience with
The Coin was too good not to solicit feedback and have this story improved as well.
So, to mitigate the backstory problem, I've included a spoiling primer to book one below. The story can be found in full on its FFN page (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5513459) or in the attached archive at the end of the post.
Recap: Identity book one - Tribe of the Ki Sorcerers
At the end of the Ranma manga, our eponymous hero, Ranma Saotome, slew the Phoenix King Saffron at Jusenkyo, hoping to save Akane from certain death. As he cried over her inanimate body, he admitted his love for her, at least to himself, and lo, Akane awoke. In celebration, the Tendo and Saotome families planned a great wedding, which was spoiled by Shampoo, Ukyo, and others. Identity begins in the aftermath of those events, with Ranma driven to return to Jusenkyo, thinking his cure necessary to prove his manhood and worth. There, he's met by a party of Ki Sorcerers, and after a tense battle, they take him captive.
The reasons are complex. The Sorcerers of Qinghai live a secluded life west of Jusenkyo. From the battle with Saffron, their isolated existence was disturbed. The Sorcerers have a Jusenkyo spring of their own, and they use this spring to change their genders, suppressing sexual desires and feelings of affection. To exert ultimate control over the dangerous magics they wield, they use a Sieve--a single person who drains the village of strong emotions and magic, lest those powers erupt in a cataclysm. The battle with Saffron has sated the Sieve, and it is village tradition that the person who did this deed take his place. Coerced into helping the Sorcerers, Ranma quickly points them to Saffron, unwilling to tell them he killed the Phoenix King, lest their anger with him prove a danger.
This is the sage for which the first book of Identity unfolds, for as Akane, Shampoo, and Ukyo journey from Tokyo to save Ranma, he works to subvert his captors' and earn freedom on his own, learning the Sorcerers' magic to aid him. Tribe of the Ki Sorcerers concludes with Ranma having escaped the Sorcerers' clutches after a climactic battle between them and the Amazons, but this freedom comes with a catch: the Sorcerer captain and advisor, Kohl, has aided their escape for a purpose--to stay with Ranma, to get the Amazons off their doorstep, for now, it is understood that Saffron wasn't meant to be the next Sieve. It was the one who slew him instead. The Sorcerers have let Ranma go, but they still mean to break him. That is where we begin with book two.
Cast of Characters
A quick description of new characters and how events have changed the cast we know from the manga.
The Nerima party
Ranma Saotome: A misunderstanding with Akane and Ukyo drove Ranma back to Jusenkyo, and in Sorcerer captivity, he's put his aptitude for learning other techniques to good use. Ranma acquires an array of ice magic abilities, materializing deadly spikes from the air and explosive orbs.
Akane Tendo: Feeling massive guilt over her hand in Ranma's disappearance, Akane has admitted her love for him and joins the party to China to stage a rescue.
Ukyo Kuonji: While in China, Ukyo's shop is run by her father, a now-successful chef based out of Osaka. In pursuing Ranma, she hopes to earn back some respect from her father as well.
Shampoo: Shampoo's status within her tribe is complicated by Ranma's disappearance. In particular, while Ranma's captured she can return freely to the Amazon village and can exert tribal right to raise an army to save him, but when he is free, she must return with him or not at all.
Cologne: Twenty years ago, Cologne was one of the three Speakers of the Elder Council, and to smooth over relations between the Amazons and the Sorcerers, she offered her granddaughter, Ceruse, to marry a Sorcerer prince. Ceruse and her husband disappeared, however, sparking a bitter war. To this day, Cologne hopes to uncover the truth behind Ceruse's disappearance and pursues this mystery with great abandon.
The Sorcerers
Making their village west of Jusenkyo, the Sorcerers protect themselves in a "Maze," an illusion that confuses anyone without affinity for magic, preventing their entrance to the village--or, in Ranma's case, preventing escape as well. Ritually, new babies are cursed in their sacred spring, changing their genders. They grow up believing that this is imperative, for otherwise their affinity for magic would lead to acts of catastrophic power. The spring dulls their magic potential somewhat, providing control instead, but the defenders of the village, the Sorcerer Guard, do their duty in their original bodies, using magic to its fullest extent. In this, they maintain dual lives--an identity while in the Guard, with a new name and responsibility, and an old life as a common villager.
Sindoor: The leader of the Sorcerers, often addressed as "Lady." Little is known about her except that she practices magic very sparingly but is utterly formidable when she does. As the Amazons invade the Sorcerer village again, she repels them with extreme force--an attack that reduces all in its cone of effect to ash.
Kohl/Wuya: Kohl is Sindoor's advisor publicly, but in secret, he is also the Captain of the Guard, Wuya. Wuya is his birth body, but he identifies himself as Kohl always. He has long had Sindoor's favor, for reasons he knows not. He is gruff and stoic but not without pride. His reasons for leading stem from the past. As a trainee in the Guard, he became involved with another in his class, and their closeness is what sated the previous Sieve. While Kohl was allowed to continue his training, the other--Tilaka--was broken in spirit and became the new Sieve. Kohl seeks to have Tilaka replaced so that his friend won't have to bear that responsibility again.
Tilaka: Having been Sieve for several years, Tilaka is strongly driven by seeking out powerful emotions to fill the void within her. She was born male and spent all her time as Sieve that way, but she considers herself female in keeping with tribal tradition.
The Amazons
They called themselves the Tribe of the River Warriors until disastrous defeat at the hands of the Sorcerers killed many of their men. Now, branding themselves Women Heroes, their hatred for the Sorcerers is strong.
The Council of Elders: The Council is a small body of twelve representatives, all from powerful families. To maintain a separation between persuasive influence and real power, the Council is divided in two parts--the Silent Nine, who may not speak in open chambers but hold all power to vote, and the Three Speakers, who direct and control debate but can never vote. Cologne was once Second Speaker, a position she relinquished after insisting that the Sorcerer War continue. Today, the Speaker positions are filled by Surma, a former student of Cologne's; Thanaka, a populist, hawkish individual; and Bindi, the First Speaker, who stubbornly seeks a peaceful solution.
Finally, some remarks about what I submit for criticism here: the prelude and first act of chapter eight. I'll refrain from saying too much to pollute the responses. For those unfamiliar with the story and who feel the primer above is inadequate to follow what happens here, I can recommend some parts to read that may illuminate what's referenced:
For 8.0: 5.1, 5.2, 6.0
For 8.1: 4.1, 6.8, 7.5, 7.6
I
think that should do. Again, under the circumstances, I can only imagine it will be somewhat challenging to give feedback for a story that's already this long, so I'm very grateful for the help.
Again, the story so far is attached in a compressed tar archive or here on FFN (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5513459). The archive also contains 8.0 and 8.1, which are separately attached below as well for convenience, as well as a framed index page for navigation of the whole story.
Edit: 8.4 revision 3 is now also attached.
Would you like comments other chapters, or just the parts of chapter 8 that you've posted? I finished reading chapter 1 and wrote down a few notes, then reread your post. If you'd just like chapter 8 commented upon, I can skip to the backstory parts you've cited.
You're welcome to give commentary on whatever you wish, though I'd be hesitant to make big, sweeping changes. I have made some minor revisions on the earlier chapters to fix some matters of fact (which are unaltered in the FFN version but fixed in the one uploaded here). Reading chapter one and comparing it against what's written of eight could give some perspective, though, considering chapter one was written over two years ago.
This is taking a bit long for me to read, so I thought I'd post the notes I've been taking.
I had a number for chapter 1, but lost them in an unexpected computer reset. It involved a repeated word, an unexpected tense change, and some other minor grammar, but I don't remember where. Some other stylistic chapter 1 issues, but I don't remember what they were either.
Also, if I'm seriously commenting on a work, I'll read it over 3 times: once for first impressions, twice to see what pieces I missed from the first time, and thrice for polish. But since you've mentioned that you're probably not going to make significant changes, I've just read everything once. It's possible that the comments I've made are not proper with the context of a later development.
2a0
> The stone of the palace walls damped not these energies.
The "damped not" prose was sufficiently purple that I thought it would be a good idea to point it out.
I'm also not sure what purpose the first paragraph serves, beyond being imagery. I could see it being "Lady Sindoor is a badass sorceress", but the rest of this part already establishes that she's the big cheese.
2a1
> "Who do these people think they are, magicians?" said Ranma. "Take anyone on earth they please, why don't they." I don't see where the "magicians" guess comes in. It's not like Ranma has a long history of self-proclaimed magicians specifically doing things to annoy him (Gosunkugi does, but so does everyone else who isn't a magician).
"Who do these people think they are?" without modifier is also a perfectly good line of indignation.
2a2
> "The warriors of the Sorcerer Guard wear black," said Kohl. "The palace attendants wear maroon."
> "I guess that's smart—not having your best warriors wear red shirts."
> "Pardon?"
> "Nothing."
As a manga reader, I find this funny. But I think he wore a red shirt in the anime, so you may get a few comments regarding that.
> Say what he would of the Sorcerers' hospitality, Ranma had to give credit for their magic. Folks back home—like Mousse and Ryōga—used what magic they knew as tricks, one-off weapons meant to distract more than assert victory. Ranma himself was no exception there.
Uh...he blew up two mountains. That sounds pretty assertive of victory in my book, with or without magic.
> We could've struck back, decimated their village, but the Prince would have none of it
Decimation is, technically, the practice of diciplining a Roman legion that routed by randomly executing 1 of every 10 soldiers. People use the term interchangably of "devastation" these days, but it's not strictly proper.
> "So you'll forgive me if, when mention Saffron comes to me, I assume the culprit is him?"
Grammar seems off here.
2a4
> Ranma stole their daggers, slashing both.
He slashed what? Slashed their throats, I could maybe see, but if that's what you meant, you should say that.
3a3
> "Your eyes, your hair—no, this will not do," said Cologne. "I'll make some brown-weed tea, then. A few sips on the flight should let you sleep even through a tornado."
Do they not have liquid bans in flights out of Japan?
Also, hah for use of the tea. That feels like something out of the manga.
> (chapter end)
Idle thought. Shampoo is going to die for Ranma. I guess future chapters will tell if I'm right or not.
4a2
> (SoD-Akane)
Nice touch.
The sentience is a bit creepy, if you think about it, but I suppose that probably isn't where you are going to take the fic.
4a6
> "Well fine." Ranma poked back with the same motion. "Who are you?"
> She blinked for a moment but soon caught on. "Marula."
Doesn't really sound Chinese. Then again, neither does Mousse.
4a7
> (A note to those at home: damage from floods, earthquakes, household pets, and the Shishi Hokōdan are not often covered by your home insurance. Contact your broker for more information.)
This is funny. It also totally fucks up the tension you built into this scene.
Generally, I liked your combat scenes, but this is from the perspective of someone who can't write fighting scenes worth a damn, so take that with a grain of salt.
Yeah, this is why I didn't really want to expect anyone to read the whole thing in short order; it's a bit...lengthy. Longer than planned? I'm not so sure because I planned seven chapters and I got seven chapters. It's just that they're all longer than I thought they'd be going in. Some of that's the structure and what I ended up trying to accomplish with each act.
And now, of course, I'm doing something slightly different for book two. Structure evolves, I guess.
Quote2a0
> The stone of the palace walls damped not these energies.
The "damped not" prose was sufficiently purple that I thought it would be a good idea to point it out.
I'm also not sure what purpose the first paragraph serves, beyond being imagery. I could see it being "Lady Sindoor is a badass sorceress", but the rest of this part already establishes that she's the big cheese.
You think maybe "could not block" instead?
Regarding the first paragraph: it's intended to be an explanation for how this magic works or is felt. If that's not what comes across, I may consider how to make that more clear.
Quote
3a3
> "Your eyes, your hair—no, this will not do," said Cologne. "I'll make some brown-weed tea, then. A few sips on the flight should let you sleep even through a tornado."
Do they not have liquid bans in flights out of Japan?
Also, hah for use of the tea. That feels like something out of the manga.
I guess the question is whether they had bans in 1988 or so. I don't really know the answer to that question, but I do try to write this piece as taking place strictly in that general timeframe around 1988-1990 (i.e. no cell phones, no widespread computers). Admittedly, outside of the no cell phones part, the timeframe is sufficiently vague not to matter.
Quote4a6
> "Well fine." Ranma poked back with the same motion. "Who are you?"
> She blinked for a moment but soon caught on. "Marula."
Doesn't really sound Chinese. Then again, neither does Mousse.
Yeah, I went for theme naming over sensible Chinese names. And Marula's a character I haven't really gotten to use to her fullest yet.
Quote4a7
> (A note to those at home: damage from floods, earthquakes, household pets, and the Shishi Hokōdan are not often covered by your home insurance. Contact your broker for more information.)
This is funny. It also totally fucks up the tension you built into this scene.
You're right about how it breaks the rhythm of the scene. As it is, I'd have to remove a reference to this gag in 5.4 also if I wanted to kill it.
But it's a fun, fun line. So, I'm not sure what to do about that.
Most of these other bits seem straightforward enough to change, or I'm glad to see that certain gags or references have gone over well (at least in one person's eyes). As a matter of fact, you brought up several tidbits that are, uh, particularly relevant, but I should probably say no more about that.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 17, 2012, 11:30:03 PM
Yeah, this is why I didn't really want to expect anyone to read the whole thing in short order; it's a bit...lengthy. Longer than planned? I'm not so sure because I planned seven chapters and I got seven chapters. It's just that they're all longer than I thought they'd be going in. Some of that's the structure and what I ended up trying to accomplish with each act.
It's fine, really. I'd planned to have read through most of it by last weekend, but have been generally busy.
And hey, a fic in a series with which I'm familiar! So, no burden, really.
Quote
And now, of course, I'm doing something slightly different for book two. Structure evolves, I guess.
You'd be a cruddy writer if your style didn't evolve.
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Quote2a0
> The stone of the palace walls damped not these energies.
The "damped not" prose was sufficiently purple that I thought it would be a good idea to point it out.
I'm also not sure what purpose the first paragraph serves, beyond being imagery. I could see it being "Lady Sindoor is a badass sorceress", but the rest of this part already establishes that she's the big cheese.
You think maybe "could not block" instead?
Sure, that will work. Or "didn't damp", "could not fully suppress", etc.
If you wanted to, you could also throw in a quick adjective about the walls themselves (dense, strong, thick) which would both infer to the reader why he should expect the walls to do something with the energies, and also set an impression of impenetrability early on to show why Ranma's use of the exploding point technique is surprising to the Sorcerers.
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Regarding the first paragraph: it's intended to be an explanation for how this magic works or is felt. If that's not what comes across, I may consider how to make that more clear.
I get that it explains the feel of magic. I meant my comment in terms of story objectives - I don't get why the feel of magic is being explained right then. Maybe when Ranma is figuring out how to use magic to beat the Sorcerors at their own game, describing the sensations of magic makes sense. Or perhaps when Ranma meets Lady Sindoor for the time, and is walking around the energies, so he describes what he's feeling.
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Quote
3a3
> "Your eyes, your hair—no, this will not do," said Cologne. "I'll make some brown-weed tea, then. A few sips on the flight should let you sleep even through a tornado."
Do they not have liquid bans in flights out of Japan?
Also, hah for use of the tea. That feels like something out of the manga.
I guess the question is whether they had bans in 1988 or so. I don't really know the answer to that question, but I do try to write this piece as taking place strictly in that general timeframe around 1988-1990 (i.e. no cell phones, no widespread computers). Admittedly, outside of the no cell phones part, the timeframe is sufficiently vague not to matter.
You're right on the timeframe and liquid bans (that happened after 9-11). If this is 88-90, then in a later chapter, you used the term "wireless" in reference to the Guide's phone, and I don't recall that term being used widely back then.
Quote
Quote4a7
> (A note to those at home: damage from floods, earthquakes, household pets, and the Shishi Hokōdan are not often covered by your home insurance. Contact your broker for more information.)
This is funny. It also totally fucks up the tension you built into this scene.
You're right about how it breaks the rhythm of the scene. As it is, I'd have to remove a reference to this gag in 5.4 also if I wanted to kill it.
But it's a fun, fun line. So, I'm not sure what to do about that.
I've used endnotes to throw in lines that would otherwise break scene flow. Some people hate seeing endnote markers too, but I think those are usually because some writers would throw as many Japanese terms into their fic as they could find to make their fic more "authentic". Of course, the fics where I used endnotes tended to be topical off-the-wall vignettes, so they might seem out of place in a story like this. But if you are referencing this gag later on, endnotes might be the best compromise solution.
I think that if it were up to me, I'd probably end up removing the gag - in the middle of a intense battle, it sticks out too much. If you were writing the typical Ranma-style battles where your Saucerors cast spells by using saucers full of sauces while sitting in UFOS, then it would be fine, but that not how you've been writing this. Of course, I also haven't read chapter 5 yet, so maybe it's worth taking a tension hit now for a better payoff down the road.
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Most of these other bits seem straightforward enough to change, or I'm glad to see that certain gags or references have gone over well (at least in one person's eyes). As a matter of fact, you brought up several tidbits that are, uh, particularly relevant, but I should probably say no more about that.
The gags are a nice touch, IMO - Ranma 1/2 was fun because it was slapstick masquerading as a martial arts drama. No reason not to have fun with them here.
Since I'm not prereading for you, the less you tell me, the better. I purposely haven't read the summary you put behind the spoiler tags for that reason.
Yeah, I think maybe moving the insurance line there to an endnote may be the best thing. It'll still be reasonably funny there, even if it doesn't have quite the same impact.
Honestly, part of why I'm attached to the paragraph starting 2.0 is because I thought starting with "On cold stone a woman knelt..." would be too sudden a start. But that could just be fixed with a different opening paragraph instead. I'll have to ruminate on that one.
8.2's first revision is now attached to the first post as well.
5a1
> And, for one day, among shelves of scrolls and parchments a girl sat, reading at a table by the window.
This either needs a comma after parchments, or reordering to "sat a girl". I recommend the former, since the latter is passive tense.
> Ranma narrowed his eyes. "You guys's soup sucks."
guys'
> "Where? What does it matter? Or better yet, give me a good reason why I should tell you."
> "There are many stories about the sacred spring," she said. "Legends, they are, of how the spring came to be infused with magic. The popular version tells of a prince and a foreign princess, who married to bring peace between the tribes. The princess, though kind and powerful in her own right, had no love for her husband. She strayed. She lay with the prince's brother and took him into her bed, but even so, the prince's brother grew jealous. The stories differ as to why. For the tile of Lord that the elder brother would wield when their mother passed? Or for the woman whom the younger could touch and lie with yet never call a wife? Who can say. No one even knows how long ago that was."
Seems awfully chatty for this transition, but gets the job done. You're not likely to overhaul the dialogue for this chapter, and it's not really all that important anyway, but thought I'd bring it up, just in case.
> "Orders get confused all the time. A group of four can be told they'll be relieved and shouldn't wait for the next watch."
THIS is a bit more. Why is a rope maker going to such trouble to accomodate Ranma's curiosity? This goes far beyond simple chatting, s/he wasn't particularly annoyed such that there's something to prove to Ranma, and there's no reason to support an "outsider"
The conversation in the next scene shows that there's an resistance going on, but a hint, very brief, that it exists either earlier or during the conversation might help.
> Let no one mistake:
Odd phrasing.
> Though Ranma couldn't read Chinese, he knew the large set of characters well enough from grade school.
> After all, every Japanese kid his age should know how to count.
This works for me, since I'm aware that Chinese and Japanese use the same characters for numbers. I wonder if this would make sense to someone unfamiliar with the written languages.
> The truth of his heart stalled him there, for he too had been afraid of passion before. Nay, it still frightened him to that day, but unlike these Sorcerers, he would bear the risk. Someone had to be told about these people, and if she refused to hear him, so be it.
> He opened his fist, and the dust fell into the fire, erupting in a burst of flame.
> Akane...
As much as I've been pointing out how much of the text of this chapter didn't work for me, it is also worth mentioning that this does.
Also, if more post Vol. 38 stories worked this much to get Ranma to plausibly admit that he has feelings for Akane, I would probably be willing read more stories about the pairing.
> "Ranma's battle with Saffron may have restored water to the central well, but Saffron still lives as a child, unable to bathe the people in heat and light. Such misfortune must still grate on them."
Didn't vol 38 mention that they bought heaters? I might be misremembering.
> "Such a shame. We've walked a great ways, yet we've spoken more of the tribe's than ourselves."
remove "'s"
5a4
> "There is no dishonor in refusing."
Perhaps replace dishonor with shame? It's not bad as it is, but since the basic setting takes place in Japan, notorious for its concern with honor, and since the current setting is in China, the change might help differentiate between cultures.
> "I don't understand it," said Ryōga. "Every time I looked back at my hand, the Old Maid was there. Why on earth are you all so good at this game?"
> Ukyō plucked the lone joker from his hand, adding it to the deck and shuffling. "Akane-chan and I had some amount of practice. Though I admit, that doesn't explain Konatsu."
Ha.
> And then there was the matter of the point getting lodged in the rock.
That's either a really good spear, or a really crappy wall.
General item: Keema is romanized in most fics as Kiima. I'm not sure which is closer to the actual name.
QuoteSeems awfully chatty for this transition, but gets the job done. You're not likely to overhaul the dialogue for this chapter, and it's not really all that important anyway, but thought I'd bring it up, just in case.
Yeah, I think that just needs some smoothing and spacing out, so Ranma's not taking in big chunks of dialogue at once from this stranger.
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THIS is a bit more. Why is a rope maker going to such trouble to accomodate Ranma's curiosity? This goes far beyond simple chatting, s/he wasn't particularly annoyed such that there's something to prove to Ranma, and there's no reason to support an "outsider"
You think so, huh? I'd hoped the line where Ranma says this rope-maker could get shot for what she's saying would make it clear he knows she's up to something against the system, but I can see how it could be made more clear.
QuoteThis works for me, since I'm aware that Chinese and Japanese use the same characters for numbers. I wonder if this would make sense to someone unfamiliar with the written languages.
Yeah, it can't hurt to make more explicit that the numerals are the same.
QuoteGeneral item: Keema is romanized in most fics as Kiima. I'm not sure which is closer to the actual name.
Yeah, I went with the spelling consistent with theme naming: keema, korma, and masala all come from Indian cuisine, and I felt like the Japanese transliteration of these words (put back into English) obscured that.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 27, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
You think so, huh? I'd hoped the line where Ranma says this rope-maker could get shot for what she's saying would make it clear he knows she's up to something against the system, but I can see how it could be made more clear.
I see what you were going for, but when I read it, it just seemed like the ropemaker spontaneously switched from passive-hostile to assistance, without any good reason. Probably much of it was that, up until this point, there really hasn't been any sort of indication of growing resistance. Sure, there's one person who has a personal stake in the system being overthrown, but is still following Sindoor's orders anyway. So, the "aha, there's a resistance movement running around somewhere" didn't really click until the rope-maker said "Hi! I'm part of the resistance!"
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Yeah, I went with the spelling consistent with theme naming: keema, korma, and masala all come from Indian cuisine, and I felt like the Japanese transliteration of these words (put back into English) obscured that.
Did not know that.
And, thinking about it, that makes me hungry.
-Edit-
Read through ch 6. Nothing much to say, except (1) generally exciting! (2) Shampoo's 'maces' are called chui in mandarin, if you're at all interested. Calling them 'maces' works fine as well, though (and at least you're not calling them bonbori - I wonder who came up with that term, anyway?) (3) Not sure if you've done this intentionally, but you've swapped Ranma's and Akane's traditional roles. Ranma is continually kidnapped by the villains for their own selfish purposes, and Akane has to learn to be stronger to rescue. Which is fun.
7a2
> The elder Surma left her teacher there, in the camp where Keema died that day, and Cologne stood her ground, unwilling to follow. She took out the photo of Ceruse and held it to the light, so the sun's glare and the paper's shadow blocked out all the color, all the life in the ink that remained.
When did the original Sorceror/River marriage take place?
Cologne is, by her word, 300 years old. Cameras were invented in ~1840. Per wikipedia, the opium wars were around that time, so cameras could have made it to China around or after that - however, since they are a minority tribe, it would take longer.
Anyway, just an idle thought. This is the sort of detail that 99% of people won't even notice, and I'm not even sure if it's really a cause for concern.
7a4
> "Xiu stabbed you?"
> A scoff. "No. He was too cowardly to do that himself."
There's a question. Why *did* they need Akane, in particular, to stab captain? Xiu could have done it himself. From latter events, he's clearly willing to attack colleagues.
7a5
> The Sieve caught her wrist, yet she cried out, all the same. "Oh, for the love of the gods!" she said, bawling, thrashing. "It's sticking right through him! Let me pull it out!"
> "Please, stop!" said Tilaka. "Please, you must calm yourself for a moment. He'll only bleed that way. Have faith. The captain will help." He looked to Wuya. "Won't you, captain?"
I've noticed that throughout your fic, your characters have a habit of not removing large spikes from people.
7a6
> This ain't like Saffron; this ain't like Herb. They were powerful, they were tough, but you could outsmart them. You could beat them because they didn't think fast. He looked to the sun, but that golden orb cast shadows from the ash on the tower grounds. My gods. How do you outsmart this?
More powerful than Saffron? That's pretty damn broken.
Keep in mind that both Saffron and Herb, when combined with Ranma, each blew up a mountain.
So, Sindoor is slinging around that kind of power in the heart of her own Sanctuary, amidst her own people? That sounds pretty damned reckless to me.
8a0
> The rope-maker nodded. "Light the fire, then."
Didn't Xiu light the rope-maker on fire?
8a1
> At that, Kohl doused himself with hot water from a nearby pot. Wielding a staff from a fallen Sorcerer, the captain herself stood before them instead, repelling her would-be jailers with a shockwave of concussive force
Observation: When the captain switches, you switch pronouns to match the body. When Ranma switches, you always use the male pronoun.
> "I'm sure that would suit Grandfather fine as well," he said. "He always had strange habits. I remember, as a young boy, I caught him trying on Grandmother's kimono. After that, he always brought me sweets from Nagano as a price for my continued cooperation. I was all too happy to oblige."
Perhaps "continued silence" would be a better phrase (unless Soun really is that way, but one would think he would not be so cavalier in admitting it).
General thoughts on chapter 8:
So, on one hand, if you removed the magic lesson, 8.0-1 this is a typical post-Saffron date setup. These usually annoy me, since they're mostly same-ish, "Ranma loves Akane, you damned Ranma-other-fiancee fans" without much to it. This didn't annoy me like those, because your entirety of book 1 changes the character dynamic.
The Kohl/Wuya aspect is itself, interesting, since the Captain's presence in Japan proper means that there's exposure to people who express emotions to each other (and this is interesting in itself, since emotional reserve is a stereotype of the Japanese people. That, and honor-suicide at the drop of a hat.) So, you could take this in the direction where, Ranma and Akane's relationship don't fall to Sindoor's expectations but the Captain has been subverted by living amongst people who can express themselves. Or, if you're really ambitious, the captain isn't subverted...but the Guard who followed, is.
Shampoo's necklace makes its return. I remember it, since I was thinking when I read it that it was a very good setup for Shampoo as a tragic heroine. I'd almost forgotten about the necklace, and had I not commented on it earlier, I might have actually done so. I don't know if it works better like this, or whether it would be better to try to work them into her description (nothing too obvious, but a mention once or twice to keep it in the back of the reader's mind). It's hard to say, without knowing what you'll be doing with that aspect of the story. While I remember it, I am not sure if other readers would.
Ukyou was overshadowed in book 1. Shampoo took on a personal sacrifice that is still hanging over her head, Akane was captured twice and had to stab someone in the back to save Ranma, Ukyou made cooking analogies. I don't think that you've shortchanged her perspective, since Mousse and Ryouga had less, but it didn't feel like she changed events much. When she'd made the "leek" comment, I'd somewhat expected you to pull a leek/leak pun and flood the Sorcerers to cut off their mobility, since she would have then made a meaningful contribution to the war effort. I think she was useful for developing the group dynamic, but didn't really stand out as a fiancee who is threatening Akane in terms of usefulness/sacrifice/whatever. Takahashi, herself, didn't do as much with Ukyou as some others, so there's no real shame in this; still, something to keep in mind, depending on whatever you were planning for Ukyou in your later chapters/acts.
To sum up the previous two paragraphs, after the initial council debate where Cologne exposes the three speakers, the focus was on Akane. Which is generally okay, given where the story has gone so far. Whether it matters depends on where you're planning on for future events in Nerima, so I'll have to wait until you've written them to tell.
QuoteRead through ch 6. Nothing much to say, except (1) generally exciting! (2) Shampoo's 'maces' are called chui in mandarin, if you're at all interested. Calling them 'maces' works fine as well, though (and at least you're not calling them bonbori - I wonder who came up with that term, anyway?) (3) Not sure if you've done this intentionally, but you've swapped Ranma's and Akane's traditional roles. Ranma is continually kidnapped by the villains for their own selfish purposes, and Akane has to learn to be stronger to rescue. Which is fun.
Yeah, the maces should be called chui most of the time; I'd hoped to only say "maces" for variety, I think. Swapping traditional roles was a fun part of the book one plot; I feel like it got people other than Ranma more involved than they otherwise would've been.
QuoteWhen did the original Sorceror/River marriage take place?
Cologne is, by her word, 300 years old. Cameras were invented in ~1840. Per wikipedia, the opium wars were around that time, so cameras could have made it to China around or after that - however, since they are a minority tribe, it would take longer.
Anyway, just an idle thought. This is the sort of detail that 99% of people won't even notice, and I'm not even sure if it's really a cause for concern.
To be honest, I was going for Cologne being merely in around a hundred or so (300 coming from the anime, the manga being...less clear, I thought). The marriage was 20 years before the story, just before the war.
QuoteThere's a question. Why *did* they need Akane, in particular, to stab captain? Xiu could have done it himself. From latter events, he's clearly willing to attack colleagues.
Yeah, I think I was going for something like, Akane is alone with the captain a lot, and so has opportunity to be an unexpected attacker. Why Xiu can't do that himself does raise questions: is it because they're thin on manpower and need all the help they can get, or something else? I do think this is inadequately answered in the text.
QuoteDidn't Xiu light the rope-maker on fire?
The rope-maker wasn't at her stand; I'll review the part where Xiu burns it down to see how I can make that more clear.
Quote
Observation: When the captain switches, you switch pronouns to match the body. When Ranma switches, you always use the male pronoun.
This is...complicated. Almost always, Ranma is a male pronoun, yes. There are a couple times where I try to remind what state Ranma's in by saying "the pigtailed girl...she..." sort of thing. Before Kohl was widely outed this way, the characters' limited knowledge drove the narrator's pronoun usage. Mostly, Kohl was a man and Wuya a woman, and the only person whom the narrator followed that would avoid this rule was Kohl himself (who will, in 8.3, always see himself as a man). Now that Kohl and Wuya are known to be the same person, things are more...ambiguous, and they depend on the narrator's viewpoint. Ranma is being stubborn and insists Kohl is Wuya (and, hence, is a girl). Akane is more understanding. Others, who aren't living with Kohl right now, may not have formed a consistent habit.
Basically, I've tried to have the pronouns the narrator uses follow the pronouns and viewpoint the POV character would use. Nevertheless, there may be some inconsistencies there.
Quote> "I'm sure that would suit Grandfather fine as well," he said. "He always had strange habits. I remember, as a young boy, I caught him trying on Grandmother's kimono. After that, he always brought me sweets from Nagano as a price for my continued cooperation. I was all too happy to oblige."
Perhaps "continued silence" would be a better phrase (unless Soun really is that way, but one would think he would not be so cavalier in admitting it).
I'm not sure why I have that as it is when I'm pretty sure I had "silence" there at one time or another. Odd.
QuoteSo, on one hand, if you removed the magic lesson, 8.0-1 this is a typical post-Saffron date setup. These usually annoy me, since they're mostly same-ish, "Ranma loves Akane, you damned Ranma-other-fiancee fans" without much to it. This didn't annoy me like those, because your entirety of book 1 changes the character dynamic.
I'm glad it doesn't come off as trite. I felt that a lot of the entanglements with relationships were really on hold for book one, that after things blew up in chapter one, it was all about understanding the enemy, finding out who the Sorcerers were, and fighting to get Ranma back. Book two gives the opportunity to confront everything that had to be put aside, and I see 8.1 as part of the starting point. Necessary, in that way. It may be too unambiguously positive, but I've been trying to write more positive stuff based on learning from
The Coin, if only so that when things get bad, the relative change is accentuated.
QuoteThe Kohl/Wuya aspect is itself, interesting, since the Captain's presence in Japan proper means that there's exposure to people who express emotions to each other (and this is interesting in itself, since emotional reserve is a stereotype of the Japanese people. That, and honor-suicide at the drop of a hat.) So, you could take this in the direction where, Ranma and Akane's relationship don't fall to Sindoor's expectations but the Captain has been subverted by living amongst people who can express themselves. Or, if you're really ambitious, the captain isn't subverted...but the Guard who followed, is.
Yeah, there's a lot of possibility here. What Kohl learns from Japanese culture and about gender is something I consider integral to the story.
QuoteShampoo's necklace makes its return. I remember it, since I was thinking when I read it that it was a very good setup for Shampoo as a tragic heroine. I'd almost forgotten about the necklace, and had I not commented on it earlier, I might have actually done so. I don't know if it works better like this, or whether it would be better to try to work them into her description (nothing too obvious, but a mention once or twice to keep it in the back of the reader's mind). It's hard to say, without knowing what you'll be doing with that aspect of the story. While I remember it, I am not sure if other readers would.
I'm not sure I understand about what works better. You're saying the necklace isn't mentioned enough--it's mentioned in an opening paragraph where Ukyo remembers how Shampoo was allowed to lead the party--or...?
QuoteUkyou was overshadowed in book 1. Shampoo took on a personal sacrifice that is still hanging over her head, Akane was captured twice and had to stab someone in the back to save Ranma, Ukyou made cooking analogies. I don't think that you've shortchanged her perspective, since Mousse and Ryouga had less, but it didn't feel like she changed events much. When she'd made the "leek" comment, I'd somewhat expected you to pull a leek/leak pun and flood the Sorcerers to cut off their mobility, since she would have then made a meaningful contribution to the war effort. I think she was useful for developing the group dynamic, but didn't really stand out as a fiancee who is threatening Akane in terms of usefulness/sacrifice/whatever. Takahashi, herself, didn't do as much with Ukyou as some others, so there's no real shame in this; still, something to keep in mind, depending on whatever you were planning for Ukyou in your later chapters/acts.
To sum up the previous two paragraphs, after the initial council debate where Cologne exposes the three speakers, the focus was on Akane. Which is generally okay, given where the story has gone so far. Whether it matters depends on where you're planning on for future events in Nerima, so I'll have to wait until you've written them to tell.
You're entirely right; Ukyo didn't have a lot to do, and after chapter four, neither did Shampoo. I'm hoping to give them both bigger roles to play, to give the same focus on overcoming flaws (or trying to) as I did with Akane for the back half of book one.
At any rate, I can't thank you enough for having the patience to read through this story. I'm glad that you find it generally tolerable. Now that you've read the whole story, I can say a few things about what I'm trying to do with book two. In trying to not lose the threads on each character's story, I'm trying to do less perspective changes. 8.1 and 8.2 both have single POV characters (Ranma and Ukyo), and as much as I can, I'm going to try to stick to that (in part, it's also easier to transition back into from the first-person stuff I was writing before, at least for me). It's a slightly different style of storytelling, but I think it still works.
Thanks again for your thoughts so far. I'm going to try working through the rest of chapter eight and then try to clear up the parts you found unclear or awkward.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 30, 2012, 01:32:45 AM
To be honest, I was going for Cologne being merely in around a hundred or so (300 coming from the anime, the manga being...less clear, I thought). The marriage was 20 years before the story, just before the war.
Okay. I haven't read the manga in a long time, and disliked the anime and stopped watching after the first few eps...but remember the 300 number being thrown around fairly often. If she's 100 (in canon, or in story), then that's fine. And like I said, even if 300 is a correct number, it's not as if most people would notice or care about cameras anyway.
Quote
Quote
Observation: When the captain switches, you switch pronouns to match the body. When Ranma switches, you always use the male pronoun.
This is...complicated.
<snip>
But complicated in a good way! I thought you were doing something like that (and when I said "always", I noticed in the earlier chapters that the Sorcerers would refer to Ranma as "she", so "always" wasn't the proper word.). That you were treating pronouns based on viewpoint didn't really jump out at me until when I made the statement, when you're switching back and forth between viewpoints inclusive of the captain and Ranma more often. If I had picked up on it earlier, it would have meant that I was confused/annoyed.
Quote
It may be too unambiguously positive, but I've been trying to write more positive stuff based on learning from The Coin, if only so that when things get bad, the relative change is accentuated.
It doesn't, mainly because from Ranma's viewpoint, it's Akane whom he sees coming after him, and whom he sees the most fighting and suffering for him.
Quote
QuoteShampoo's necklace makes its return. I remember it, since I was thinking when I read it that it was a very good setup for Shampoo as a tragic heroine. I'd almost forgotten about the necklace, and had I not commented on it earlier, I might have actually done so. I don't know if it works better like this, or whether it would be better to try to work them into her description (nothing too obvious, but a mention once or twice to keep it in the back of the reader's mind). It's hard to say, without knowing what you'll be doing with that aspect of the story. While I remember it, I am not sure if other readers would.
I'm not sure I understand about what works better. You're saying the necklace isn't mentioned enough--it's mentioned in an opening paragraph where Ukyo remembers how Shampoo was allowed to lead the party--or...?
I'm not sure if it is mentioned enough, or not enough. I'm just raising the possibility that since there was that war and several battles, the significance might have gotten lost. Since I was jotting notes for each chapter at a time, it's hard for me to offer an opinion from someone reading through the story with no incentive to particularly note story elements. In short, I'm flagging it for attention, not necessarily change.
Quote
I'm hoping to give them both bigger roles to play, to give the same focus on overcoming flaws (or trying to) as I did with Akane for the back half of book one.
I was wondering if you were going to take this into a "Ranma-Akane relationship against all opponents" type story for book 2, especially since Akane had most of the screen time of all the fiancees in the last half.
Quote
At any rate, I can't thank you enough for having the patience to read through this story. I'm glad that you find it generally tolerable.
Book 1 as a whole was more than tolerable. It was my pleasure to review this, and look forward to reading more of book 2.
Hm, it's been a while. A draft of 8.3 is now attached.
> 'Good. How are the Sieve and his beloved?'
She refers to Ranma as "him"?
> The labeling of streets, the behavior of traffic signals—he had to understand them to get from place to place.
I've been told that the Japanese address system is incomprehensible anyway.
> He summoned gusts of wind to blow through the streets, and curiously, girls around him would pull furiously on their skirts to keep them down. Why did they do that?
> And then there were shorts and skirts. It was hard enough to see people wearing such things, but to consider doing so himself? What a sickening, disgusting thought. The very notion made him retch. What obsession did these people have with exposing their legs?
A bit of dissonance here. At one point, there's confusion as to why one would hold down a skirt, in the other, awareness of it.
Also, I'm imagining a scene of bribing Happosai for assistance by using the wind spell, although I'm sure that this isn't that sort of story.
There was some other thought as well, but I forgot it. If I remember it later, I'll let you know.
QuoteShe refers to Ranma as "him"?
Kohl will need to explain thisEdit: The narrator will need to explain Kohl's thought process, but the idea being that if Ranma's supposed to be the Sieve, Ranma's going to spend most of his time locked up in the tower as a man anyway, and knowing that Ranma and Akane are supposedly involved, it hurts Kohl's brain less to think of Ranma as a man than to think of him as a woman...or so. Like I said, Kohl needs to explain that a bit.
Quote> He summoned gusts of wind to blow through the streets, and curiously, girls around him would pull furiously on their skirts to keep them down. Why did they do that?
> And then there were shorts and skirts. It was hard enough to see people wearing such things, but to consider doing so himself? What a sickening, disgusting thought. The very notion made him retch. What obsession did these people have with exposing their legs?
A bit of dissonance here. At one point, there's confusion as to why one would hold down a skirt, in the other, awareness of it.
Yeah, I caught half of the problem when I did my second pass through the wind part, but it seems I didn't get all of it.
Thanks again for the feedback, Jason.
An initial draft of 8.4 is now in the main post.
Edit: to be frank, I've noticed the lack of input aside from Jason's. I expected that presenting a story for feedback when it was already so far underway would be a barrier, but given the lengthy discussions on other current Ranma pieces, I'd hoped for a somewhat broader base for thoughts. I can think of a fair number of reasons why people would want to pass on this piece, most of which I think are understandable to be sure, but right now, I'm trying to puzzle out the meaning of the silence and getting nowhere. It makes me think there must be something fundamentally wrong with the piece that I'm just blind to and can't pick out.
To be homest, I haven't even looked at it.
I am that apathetic to Ranma/Akane. Nothing you did wrong, just tired and burnt out on that. Plus, I'm working on a story with somewhat similar themes in the same universe, so....
Can't speak for anyone else.
That's perfectly fair. I won't say I'm thrilled to hear it, but I have my preferences too and won't begrudge anyone for that.
For myself, it's mostly that I know very little of the Ranma-verse, aside from some exposure to fanfiction and people that write/critique it. I could review it for technical aspects, but since the story holds very little attraction for me aside from the fact that someone's asking for C&C, I tend to shy away from doing so.
Sorry you didn't really find what you hoped for with regards to C&C and a broader audience/review pool.
I rarely even look in this sub-forum unless someone mentions a non-Haruhi fic being posted here, and yours was the first one to get mentioned over IRC for doing that, so it at least grabbed my attention initially. I don't even mind Ranma/Akane fics, and I'd -wanted- to review it just for not being non-Haruhi stuff here when I first saw the thread...but then seeing the size of the content promptly made me pull back on the idea. =/
I just always lose steam reviewing through huge content, and like Miao, I like to do 2-3 reads so I have first impressions/technical mixed into the review. Almost 50 chapters is incredibly intimidating...
...and I'll also admit that the stuff about ki sorcerers and the whole gender-bending thing about how they work/think did absolutely nothing to draw my interest, so I had attraction problems similar to Brian/Hal if just for different reasons from the get-go.
While size is a huge contributor, I might have gone ahead and made time to read through that monster, and just reviewed from the last chapter onward if it had intrigued me. That it didn't, well that meant that I'd likely lose steam before I even got to the chapters you do want reviewed, barring me actually deciding I actually liked it somewhere in the middle, but I don't want to start reading 40+ chapters for that 'maybe'.
For what it's worth, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it from what I saw scanning through it, it seemed easy to read, well-written, with good narrative flow and mix of dialogue and details (if a bit slanted towards dialogue, but a lot of fanfics do that anyway)...it just didn't grab me.
Again, sorry. =/
Well, if the main gimmick of the piece (the Sorcerers and what they represent) doesn't work, that's a problem. Admittedly, it's not a problem I know how to fix, but just knowing that that is the case will make me think about it and what I could've done differently, so thanks for that.
Well, it's a problem for me certainly, but it's not like it's something that needs 'fixing', it's just different interests.
I mostly just wanted to at least explain why I hadn't reviewed since you were asking for info on that from everyone, and I peeked in the thread since someone mentioned this fic yesterday in chat.
Indeed, it's a perfectly understandable reason and it gets me thinking about how the story could've been more widely appealing. It's something I'd been pondering for some time. One of the things I was just considering was how choosing a pairing had narrowed the audience (even before Brian's comment to that effect), that perhaps the story would've been better served without that limiting aspect. That would've put more focus on Ranma himself and simplified things a great deal in terms of the structure and what needed to be accomplished. It'd also be a very different story, though, so that's something I put in the "what if I'd done this instead...?" category.
Anyway, in all seriousness, it is helpful to me to understand what barriers are in place, and I can see that, at least from the three of you, they are the barriers I expected, so it does put me at ease that it's nothing I didn't think could be. Thanks for the input.
I've tried to read it, but see Brian's reply. Ranma/Akane 100% kills interest, even if other aspects hold promise. I've read a few bits and I do think the story idea holds promise and there's nothing inherently wrong with your ideas. For what it's worth, I don't think Brian and I are representative of Ranma fandom in general. Ranma/Akane's generally popular within the fandom, as far as I've ever noticed.
QuoteIndeed, it's a perfectly understandable reason and it gets me thinking about how the story could've been more widely appealing. It's something I'd been pondering for some time. One of the things I was just considering was how choosing a pairing had narrowed the audience (even before Brian's comment to that effect), that perhaps the story would've been better served without that limiting aspect. That would've put more focus on Ranma himself and simplified things a great deal in terms of the structure and what needed to be accomplished. It'd also be a very different story, though, so that's something I put in the "what if I'd done this instead...?" category.
My personal opinion is that unless the story needs to deal with Ranma's relationships, it shouldn't. The entire premise of Ranma 1/2 involves Ranma's Gordian Knot of relationships, fiancees and romance. Attempting to cut that knot invariably adds baggage to your fic, as well as things you need to resolve on top of your existing premises. You're going to invite over a decade's worth of opinions and fans, as well as comparing your fic against every other fic that's attempted to resolve Ranma's love life. That's why I say it's best to leave it be unless the premise requires it. With your fic, I see things like ki sorcerers and gender-bending. It sounds like you have a lot going on already, so why foist off more complications to it?
This all said, your premises do interest me and I may give it a read one day anyway. I've tried a few times, but getting past my own biases against Ranma/Akane fics is hard. Eh, hell with it, let's give it a shot.
Oh yes, question. Do you want comments on book 1 in this thread or somewhere else?
Here is fine. I just wanted to give an impression of the starting point for what's new.
Giving my thoughts as I read each chapter/act plus any relevant feedback at the end. Gonna try knocking this out a few acts at a time, whittle away at things.
Chapter 1, Act 0.
Okay, starts in a rainy, miserable situation. Ranma's at Jusenkyo and things didn't work out thanks to some lightning shooting fellows in black. Emperor Palpantine vibes aside, Ranma runs. Makes sense for him, it's the final attack and all that. Then we get some context about him being here for Akane and some bottled up guilt. Interesting hook here, there's enough going on to pique my interest without telling too much. I'm more curious as to what brought Ranma here than some lightning throwing strangers at the moment. I like it as an in media res opening.
Chapter 1, Act 1.
Back to Ranma's normal life. I'm guessing flashback. Lots of Ranma/Akane stuff here, skimming. Okay, looks like things settled up and Akane's fully embraced the character change she got pushed into for the wedding arc. Shampoo's trying to make amends but Ranma's not interested. By now it feels pretty obvious that he's made up his mind about the fiancee mess. It feels like you have the Ranma/Akane interplay down well (to the point that it reminds me why I dislike that, here nor there though), especially as they walk to school and then end up in the classrooms.
Note: In the bathroom, Ranma thinks of 'Keema'. Isn't that supposed to be Kiima? Can't say that I've ever seen it spelled that way.
Ahahahahhahahhaha. Loved how Ranma chased off the boys in the bathroom. Nice touch of humor there.
Chapter was okay. A lot of Ranma/Akane stuff that I skimmed, read enough to know what's going on without drowning it.
Mur,
I will also note that had I just read chapter 1 without a "I will review this fic" mindset, I likely would have stopped at Acts 2-3. I think that once the readers hit chapters 2+, you're mostly good to go.
I didn't comment on that reaction since I have no idea what you can do about it. You've pretty much done what you could - show the fight at the springs that would let the reader know up front that this isn't going to be just a typical post-38 high school drama romance. You can't really just skip it from a story perspective, since you do need to lay some groundwork. Nothing is badly written per se.
Really, the problem is reader fatigue: Ranma/Akane has been done so badly, so often, and we've all read a number of those poorly written fics for years, so seeing more post-38 relationships, our (or at least, my) trained reaction is to stop reading before I've spent too much time on it. I was half-tempted to recommend that you cut most of chapter 1, but I think I would have served you poorly had I done so: in this case, it really is us, your readers, not you.
Really busy lately, but I'll download and read the latest act once I get a bit more time.
You make a good point, Jason--despite the in medias res prologue that I did intend to show that this wasn't just a post-38 romance, the first chapter as a whole dominated by content that is non-indicative of what's coming. It's like chapter 2 hits and bam, genre shift? Maybe not that drastic, but close.
Just so this isn't seen as empty thinking, this is the kind of change I could seriously consider doing. It's a presentation thing that doesn't change things factually, just how they're seen and perceived. The bulk of the material in chapter 1 could be scattered through what's currently chapter two (maybe? I think everything has to be known and clear before 3, or else Akane's need to make penance makes no sense, but that might feel rushed) to shed light on what Ranma was doing at Jusenkyo.
It's a provocative point and makes a lot of sense.
To Ana: Thanks for giving this a shot, though if at any time it gets too far outside your enjoyment, I absolutely would understand. As I told Jason, I chose to spell it "Keema" to make the theme naming of the Phoenix more clear: keema, korma, and masala are terms from Indian cuisine, and I felt that the romanization choice the old scanlations had obscured the theme and didn't sit well alongside Cologne, Shampoo, and Mousse. It was a personal choice; I knew it would be different from what people were used to.
And to everybody who's taken the time to comment since my little moment of frustration yesterday, I am truly grateful. I didn't expect this level of response, really; I was only hoping to get some negative emotions out that really had nothing to do with anyone here, so I appreciate folks' understanding.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 03, 2012, 08:33:47 PMTo Ana: Thanks for giving this a shot, though if at any time it gets too far outside your enjoyment, I absolutely would understand. As I told Jason, I chose to spell it "Keema" to make the theme naming of the Phoenix more clear: keema, korma, and masala are terms from Indian cuisine, and I felt that the romanization choice the old scanlations had obscured the theme and didn't sit well alongside Cologne, Shampoo, and Mousse. It was a personal choice; I knew it would be different from what people were used to.
And to everybody who's taken the time to comment since my little moment of frustration yesterday, I am truly grateful. I didn't expect this level of response, really; I was only hoping to get some negative emotions out that really had nothing to do with anyone here, so I appreciate folks' understanding.
It's cool. I can understand where you're coming from, especially when you really want good feedback and it's not coming. I'll see how the story goes and keeps going. I hope to knock out at least a couple of acts a day for awhile.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 03, 2012, 08:33:47 PMAnd to everybody who's taken the time to comment since my little moment of frustration yesterday, I am truly grateful. I didn't expect this level of response, really; I was only hoping to get some negative emotions out that really had nothing to do with anyone here, so I appreciate folks' understanding.
Believe me, I understand how you feel. :\
I do feel bad I can't comment more constructively, but I'm horrible about overcoming my biases, and would rather remain silent then rant at you like I did over
the Coin. >_<
I've been poked to yammer here. I am hesitant, because I am pretty sure what I have to say can easily be considered mean-spirited and in a sense dismissive. But at the same time, from my view it looks like you're literally clawing out trying to figure this out and not getting it at all. So I suppose it's no kindness to stay silent. There's a lack of understanding at why a fifty chapter fic is only getting one person to read and comment on it in any sense on a site where there's clearly a fair bit of commentary on fics going on.
The short of what's below is that Miao is the only one here who read it because he's the only one on the site that would slip through the very narrow filter that all the barriers around the fic produce. This is namingly because he's the type of reader who'd generally most enjoy what your pitch/story is. The why/details? Read on. I put it in spoiler tags so there isn't a gigantic long-winded post that people have to scroll through.
Context for this, if you need it at all, is that like many here, I've been reading fanfics for two decades now and general fiction for much longer. Unlike perhaps most of the fanfic community here at this point, I still enjoy reading Ranma fanfics and gladly seek them out. I don't care on relationship choices as really I've seen plenty of enjoyable stories taking every angle imaginable on that question. Long fics are actually my general target, with over a hundred thousand words on ff.net usually a minimum requirement for me to look at a fic without a personal rec or already having a hook on the author. I read epic, horror, etc, and though my usual preference is adventuresome martial arts where good things happen to the hero, that's not really a requirement to have me look. Basically, it should've been easy to get me to at least read a bit of this, but it didn't happen that way and I won't put it just at "It's because you chose a matchup that's unpopular".
I've not, prior to today, read any of your fic. I'll glance over a bit later, but I don't think your writing is at all your problem and at a glance, you've got decent enough technical chops that you shouldn't have a problem there. I've been to your FF.net page three times before today, and also this page, and in none of those did I end up actually opening up and reading the fic. I encountered it prior to your first posting here, off of someone's favorite list. Something distracted or discouraged me each time and I closed the page entirely. It didn't even make it to the small horde of 'should read this when I feel the whim'. Looking today and ignoring the details you gave in your post about what the fic contains, I almost immediately have the same impulse of closing it and not looking back. I don't think this is solely driven by a personal taste issue (Though that is part of the narrow problem).
I think in fact, there's a lot of problems with the delivery of your fic concept that drives people away from it, which means you have a significantly reduced audience base to ever give decent C&C on it. This makes it particularly hard when writing a continuation work to get any decent feedback. Calling out for it hard is one way to get over this barrier, but if you don't understand the barriers that are blocking folks off from reading your fics, then it's likely something that is going to continue to frustrate you. I'm gonna give a solid try here at elaborating on some of them, so that hopefully you can see them and I apologize for any patronizing tone that will come with it.
I'll start with an easy one. Ranma is a dead fandom. Very dead. Most of us here who have read fanfics in it were reading fanfics from it in the early-mid nineties. Outside of the 'let's turn Ranma into a girl' crowds, there isn't much in the way of a live and active community that is dedicated to reading those fics anymore. It's mailing list groups are dead. It's fan sites are pretty much historical wikias at this point. It's awards and large archives have mostly vanished from the web. For all that it was once a thriving community to write in, writing a pure Ranma fic is something that is just particularly hard to get readers for these days. It's not like a small current fandom, where you can at least track down a small group to work with. Having no community is crippling to getting feedback. When you post fics in them, nobody really sees them for the most part. How do you work around there? Many fanfic writers use crossovers in order to leverage accessibility from multiple fandoms but that's really just part of it. You need community, connection, a few people at least ready to go with you down the road early. I see you reached out on TvTropes and are doing so here. This is a good start, but also probably on both a late and too little one. Basically, without a community around, it's very hard to get much feedback at all on a fic but also to have a vision of just who might want to read your fic. Basically, without this, you cannot Know Your Audience, and that makes selling your fic to them real darn hard.
Next one, I'll just dash by. You start with a matchup declared right off the bat. Ko, Brian, these are both people you instantly lost by doing that. They never even opened your fic prior to today to see if they might like it anyway or give you feedback to a point, because started with declaring matchup. This divides your potential readerbase. This might be what you want to do, because a fic shouldn't be all things for all people, but it's a bad habit that is often encouraged. With summaries and openings, you should be hooking people on why they want to read your fic, and unless that fic is a shipping or romance fic, who is going to boff who is not a high priority there.
But that isn't alone there. I'm gonna tap another fic that's far more blatant down that road: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/36632/Speaker_to_Dreamworlds : Ranma and Akane: A Love Story. It's got a fair bit in common on face (Meant as a multibook thing, clear matchup stuff). I pinged the channels a bit during this, and most people who had heard of it had at least read it a bit. Partially from it coming from another time, but a lot has to do with how the fic itself is sold. It's original web page was amazingly inviting as a hook to check out the author's universe he was setting up. Even the barren ff.net page gives a more sharp hook to try and pull people in: Can Akane finally become a Hero? Can Ranma become a Hero ... again? I don't know. I don't know the context, I don't know what's going to happen, so I'm more likely to take a look at the first page because that summary is telling me that this is a story about these two characters and their relation to being a hero. When I read yours, I take that Ranma has already hooked up with someone, and dumped them, and now is dealing with some villians that hate emotions. Wow, that's seriously charged stuff going on, and the train on it left before I even arrived at the station. This is not a good hook, as it tells too much in too complicated a manner. I shouldn't know a villains motive before I even meet them or have opened your fic. You're also telling me right here it's a psychology fic, both in the title and the summary. I'll get back to that in a sec, but just want to point that out. Hooks though, are important. Even if someone is recommended to read your fic, if they go there and the five second summary is muddled like that, they'll probably wander off. For another worthwhile example: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/198979/Black_Dragon6 look at how big human on campus did it. Not great, but clear and no big complexity being revealed there. I have footing from that summary into just what I'm going to be starting on.
A good summary is super important to getting folks. You summarize Identity in 3 places for those approaching from FF.net (and a lot more detail if we come through SR), and to be truthful, all of them are pretty bad from the standpoint of making the fic inviting for your readers. Your big one on the front of your page is what most people will stop at. It's not sharp, it's not snappy, it gives a muddied and complicated view of what your story may be about while also potentially raising a bunch of red flags for people. Your first sentence, fine. Then you go into what's happening with the Romance. This isn't good for hooking folks. That's part of the story you're going to tell them, so now instead of being curious about what Akane or Ranma is going to do, we already know and may or may not like that. Your story loses the chance to sell us on it, because if we don't like it, we leave right there. So, okay, it's a story on Romantic Resolution where the proximity is kept very close and personal between the girls and Ranma following the series? But the next line tells us that this isn't the case. Instead the story is about these Ki Sorcerer guys who are very fucked up. Too much information on your antagonists. By just here, we've gotten too much on their past, their powers, them being far away, and something incoherent on forced marriages. This does not deliver them as good antagonists as they instantly come across as very removed from the characters I might care about (The ranma cast), and because they're introduced here, the fic doesn't get its chance to deliver them better. More specifically, this is entirely off tone from the first part of your summary. Now I've got two potential stories here? As a reader, I go Uh here. Now the summary is giving reasoning on how things have gotten to this point, and now we release the third bit: Hey the fic is really about this psychology question on the worth of love. Solid close. Even taking just the one line version, you still give too much on the antagonists. The end result is that your hook sells your fic as a muddied psychology / star-crossed romance setup. It's busy and its complicated and most readers are going to simply stop there without even opening the fic. A good summary/lead in hooks people to actually open your chapter up, whether it is being shared as a forum thread title, an ff.net fic posting, or anything else really. Most people will encounter a fic through some aggregation (Even as minimal as going to an author's own site), so if the summary is poorly delivered, then most people aren't even going to open the first chapter and try it out. All that effort and time you sink into writing hundreds of thousands of words doesn't reach them at all. A bad summary is almost as damning as a poorly written first chapter (as many folks who have 200k+ word fics fail to resolve and then run into the same problem).
Gonna give another good example of doing this: Kakashi made a mistake. Shikamaru is smart. Shino is skilled. Naruto is strong. Maybe something amazing could happen, with the right ... motivation. - Here we get a quick glimpse of a few of the characters that we're going to be interested in with this fic. We're given quick sound bites on them, as well as a good hook: a mistake has been made and yet it may have provided interesting motvation. To do what? We're not sure, but a lot of people very quickly took notice of that byline despite it not being advertised in any community at all. Basically, (and I'm a god-damn hypocrite at saying this): A concise and short summary that provokes a solid question or image in the reader's mind is superior for getting people to open a story and check it out. The more people that get that far, the more reviews and commentary that you will get, because they've actually given your story a chance to begin with.
The same thing, btw, goes for 'book 2/season 2/etc'. Sure, most authors think the important thing is to inform people what went on before, but that is a mistake. The important thing is to sell people why they want to read this new book on its own merits. Check your first post. It's all about what already happened. Rereading it, I'm still not sure at all what story I'd be reading if I opened chapter 1. This isn't good for getting new readers to come and check out a work for commentary. When professional authors release book 7 of a long running series, they don't have the back cover be 'and this is what came before', because it is far more important that they seize the imagination with what the characters will be dealing with now.
Okay, enough beating that horse. Next up. Psychological Fiction is something that has a small audience. I may be wrong that this is a psych fic, but every summary you've written on this has pounded that through to me, over-top of anything else the fic might be about. It's a critical element the fic is interested in. This is going to leave you far more in the "Fine, but not for me" situation with readers than any other type of fic, because you're not inviting them into your universe or pulling them to get into your characters or building a myth. Instead you are exploring a question, and not a philosophical one, but one that is pretty much phrased in a psychological torture experiment way (That's how I took it anyway). We've got this whole bunch of seriously messed up killer people. And they're just like Ranma. And they kidnap him, in part to make him like them? And we're exploring at all whether this might be right or not? And they've also got a bunch of shared situational things with him? A lot for some reason. This in the best of situations leaves you with a very narrow audience, no matter how skillfully you deliver the story it is going to be. On one hand, when you are writing this kind of fiction, you almost have to suck it up and take it. You've chosen a very narrow subject that is uninviting for most people to even contemplate. You're going to have trouble getting feedback on it. On the other, that's taking failure to get such too much for granted. The Story of B is a question based story, focusing on a Philosophy of Population versus Food, but it was able to be accessible to a rather broad range of folks because while the story was about investigating and exploring the question, it was also about a man's journey of spiritual discovery, and it's initial hook was something more accessible than that: An evil group of priests that hunt down and eliminate potential anti-christs. Yeah, religious assassins basically. A concept that is super easy for the common person to get an image of without them having an interest in philosophy, farming, population growth, or any of the myriad of other topics the book actually covers in exploring its question. The key I am getting at here is to not put the cart in front of the horse. To write a philosophical or (bleh) psychological fic and attract readers, do not start with the Question. Don't expose it. If you want to just deal with the question, go write a psychology paper. If you want to tell a story that people listen to, start with the story of how that question is going to become relevant and why people will be interested in that story. From the title through to the summaries and even the start of your fic, you deliver an impression that exploring this question is more important than telling the story, and that's something that drives people looking for a story away.
Okay, let's see, what else... This is just kinda petty of me, but I gotta note it, because it did drive me off once. You've got some ideas on your front page. Big deal, lots of authors do that. It's not a great habit, but one of the downsides is I'm going to look over them despite them having nothing to do with the fic I'm scrolling down to go read. In this case, I see your planned continuation of Zen's Bitter End. And frankly...it offended me. Zen (Who happens to hang out on the irc server, btw) wrote a story with tremendous proximity and coincidentally powerful emotional delivery, working primarily around a small handful of characters and exploring a tragedy brought about by a painful psych condition. Basically a descent into insanity and how it harmed those around them, kept very gritty and grounded. The Color Red is a pitch for ...that Akane to have become a dimension traveling monster? What the fuck? I could see working off of a Skysaber or Metroanime Akane and getting that, but from Zen's fic? I know fanfic authors by definition play fast and loose with other people's ideas and universes, but still... having that kind of thing front and center on your page delivers to me "This guy has a very wacky perception on these characters and you probably won't like it". Probably not the message you meant those ideas to send, but that's often the problem with having a raw concept snippets before your fics: They can tell a lot that might not be good.
Okay, that's probably way more than enough. There might be more worthwhile to go over and hopefully some folks will go into the actual fic, but I hope this helps illuminate some of the core of why you were having such trouble getting people to start reading it, despite technical chops. A muddied summary and uninviting hook will convince most people that the fic isn't their thing before they even give it a shot.
That's a fascinating perspective, Drac, and I appreciate the time you've taken to share it. In particular, hooks are something I know I've struggled with and gone back and forth on a few times, so seeing what you feel is good example and how that simple aspect can be improved is very helpful to me, so thanks for that and the rest of your comments. It's really illuminating to see how the story's subject matter fits in the grand scheme of things and how that's narrowing toward the audience. It's something I expected, on one level, but you point out why that's so in ways much more specific than I could've come up with on my own.
Chapter 1, Act 2.
Okay, onto the wedding and another flashback. Interesting that it feels like you're moving in reverse order chronologically, unfolding the story like an onion. I sort of like it. I like Kasumi's speech to Akane; I've always had trouble with Akane going along with the wedding so any patch on that is always appreciated. The Akane-Nabiki scene was okay, didn't really draw me in much for whatever reason. Rest of the chapter left me going meh, mostly due to personal biases. I feel Shampoo got a bad rap here and fell too neatly into the villainous bitch role.
So-so chapter. Akane-focused chapters don't do a lot for me, I confess. Just isn't my cup o' tea, though it looks like the next chapter hops back to what's going on at Jusenkyo, so we'll see how that goes.
Yeah, most of 1 does the flashback schtick; 1.2 is the only one that doesn't go back to Jusenkyo for some amount of time, if I recall. Ironically, this kind of storytelling I did to death back then in 2009, yet to an extent, I've moved away from it, tried to be more linear and do less jumping around to keep things "simple." With respect to what Jason mentioned earlier, though, it does feel to me in retrospect that the best parts of 1 could be taken and put into 2 as flashbacks. It would change the emphasis somewhat and explore the characters' states of mind in less detail--not a bad thing if that level of detail is undue and overdone anyway. It would be the difference between seeing a puzzle solved step by step vs. seeing only the major jumps in logic and leaving all the other blanks to be filled in.
Honestly, I think I didn't do that originally (starting with Ranma captured and in custody of the Sorcerers and flashing back to what happened at home) because, for whatever reason, I thought starting with the Sorcerers in a cold-open-esque way would be uninteresting? Can't really figure out why I thought that, to be honest. It seems like the most natural thing to start with, in retrospect.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 05, 2012, 03:51:19 AM
Yeah, most of 1 does the flashback schtick; 1.2 is the only one that doesn't go back to Jusenkyo for some amount of time, if I recall. Ironically, this kind of storytelling I did to death back then in 2009, yet to an extent, I've moved away from it, tried to be more linear and do less jumping around to keep things "simple." With respect to what Jason mentioned earlier, though, it does feel to me in retrospect that the best parts of 1 could be taken and put into 2 as flashbacks. It would change the emphasis somewhat and explore the characters' states of mind in less detail--not a bad thing if that level of detail is undue and overdone anyway. It would be the difference between seeing a puzzle solved step by step vs. seeing only the major jumps in logic and leaving all the other blanks to be filled in.
Yeah, I think I have to agree with that.
QuoteHonestly, I think I didn't do that originally (starting with Ranma captured and in custody of the Sorcerers and flashing back to what happened at home) because, for whatever reason, I thought starting with the Sorcerers in a cold-open-esque way would be uninteresting? Can't really figure out why I thought that, to be honest. It seems like the most natural thing to start with, in retrospect.
Yeah, the cold opening's good. I think you hit the flashback button a little too hard. After reading the opening, I already had it in my head that he was closer to Akane and doing it for her. That fact didn't really need two acts elaborating on that point.