The inevitable tradeoff between Montreal and Toronto is as follows:
- Montreal is cooler, versus
- Most people you actually know live in Toronto.
Who said anything about a tradeoff? I'm doing both.
Certainly! But you're just visiting, whereas I can only live permanently in one or the other!
(Re: Montreal being cooler than Toronto, I'm trying to think of what cool things Toronto even has that don't also exist in New York or San Francisco. Coming up mostly blank at the moment.)
San Fran and New York are pretty high bars. Not a large number of cities worldwide really got much trump on them.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 12, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
(Re: Montreal being cooler than Toronto, I'm trying to think of what cool things Toronto even has that don't also exist in New York or San Francisco. Coming up mostly blank at the moment.)
I've wanted to visit a Marche Movenpick ever since reading about it in Eyrie's Symphony of the Sword (http://www.eyrie.net/UF/FI/SOS/) (probably don't start reading that if you're not familiar with Eyrie-style fanfic), and I understand Toronto still has one.
/me has been to Movenpick multiple times. Doesn't get what the big deal is.
The problem I found with Movenpick was that the portions were way way too large. So there's only so much stuff you can... well... pick in one visit. One main course and a waffle and I was bursting at the seams.
Maybe it's changed.
I think when last I was there Montreal also had a Movenpick. Toronto's Movenpick is inside the PATH network, and Montreal's Movenpick is inside the Souterrain.
Actually, the PATH/Souterrain/Pedway systems are one of the things that
is fairly unique in the major Canadian downtowns. All of the buildings and subway stations are connected using underground passages / overhead walkways / whatever, enabling office drones to exist in an environment completely isolated from the sometimes atrocious and always-inconsistent weather conditions. So the suits working at the Bank of Montreal (cosmic irony!) skyscraper in downtown Toronto don't get mauled by polar bears on the way to Union Station.
/me removes tongue from cheek.
In practice, it's like a huge mall that goes on... and on... and on....... not much to write home about........ and it can get somewhat confusing. I remember meeting people in a restaurant on Yonge St., and getting mixed up by the fact that the facade on Yonge is the
back entrance of the restaurant, and the
front door (where we were supposed to meet) was in the basement.
Quote from: Dracos on January 12, 2012, 08:02:28 PM
San Fran and New York are pretty high bars. Not a large number of cities worldwide really got much trump on them.
It's not that I'm saying T.O. needs to beat San Francisco and New York. I'd just like its salient features not to be a slightly polished subset of said two cities. Montreal has the Quebecois, along with a whole bucketload of history that's just not present in Toronto, which makes it actually interesting to visit even if you've been to New York, since it's not just duplicating stuff already found in more famous cities.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 12, 2012, 10:50:03 PM
Actually, the PATH/Souterrain/Pedway systems are one of the things that is fairly unique in the major Canadian downtowns. All of the buildings and subway stations are connected using underground passages / overhead walkways / whatever, enabling office drones to exist in an environment completely isolated from the sometimes atrocious and always-inconsistent weather conditions. So the suits working at the Bank of Montreal (cosmic irony!) skyscraper in downtown Toronto don't get mauled by polar bears on the way to Union Station.
Sounds like Shinjuku station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinjuku_station#Commercial_facilities) except without the subway. Minneapolis has a similar thing, except theirs is skyways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Skyway_System) connecting buildings.
Right, but I'm pretty sure PATH has more square footage than the Shinjuku underground complex, even if it's not nearly as crowded (outside of working hours when it's absolutely swarming with suits, the shops can seem almost eerily deserted).
Also, what do you mean without the subway? It connects to six subway stations and a commuter rail terminal. (Yeah, again, not as crowded as Shinjuku.)
Just take a look at the map (page 2 of the PDF) to get a sense of the scale:
http://www.toronto.ca/path/pdf/path_brochure.pdf
Quote from: Jon on January 13, 2012, 12:01:11 AM
Minneapolis has a similar thing, except theirs is skyways (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Skyway_System) connecting buildings.
Ah. I think Calgary and to a lesser extent Edmonton do the skyway thing. I notice the Wikipedia page you linked also notes the existence of underground cities in Texas downtowns.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 13, 2012, 12:37:42 AM
Also, what do you mean without the subway? It connects to six subway stations and a commuter rail terminal. (Yeah, again, not as crowded as Shinjuku.)
Tokyo's subway system is the only one truly worthy of the name.
(Actually I just forgot.)
Update: the PATH as explained by a stop-motion midget chipmunk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULKZqqBW3g
(Yeah... I'm not sure what the thinking behind that movie was. Probably something along the lines of "I bet I can get a grant to film this random nonsense!")
As you can see, it's just a huge climate-controlled mall. Which is considered a big deal in Canada.
*redirects* Not that it isn't fun, but perhaps a thread on discussing toronto? :3
Amusement in the Bitching Bin, Moving. =P
*sings a song of Toronto*
Toronto is much cooler than Montreal because it's not in Quebec. >_>
Sorry, it had to be said! =p
Montreal is much cooler than Toronto since it's much further to the north... (Edmonton is, by that criterion, the coolest major city in Canada, however.)
Kidding aside, a lot of the good stuff about Quebec is just as easy to appreciate from a distance. (Kind of how people watch anime and read manga who don't ever have any intention of moving to Japan.) And some of the bad stuff is pretty miserable when seen in person. While Montreal has some nice 'historic' parts, a lot of it is also really depressing and now-dilapidated sixties era construction.
http://www.photojpl.com/dilapidated-roads-in-quebec:-turcot-interchange/-/wT2edBbAof/
This panorama is certainly a concentrated, but fairly representative, image of what you'll almost certainly see in some parts of Montreal. Some mid-sized Quebec cities (looking at you Ste. Agathe!) are similarly ugly, and with less history.
However, urban coolness can also be evaluated in terms of culture. (Which is ironic, since culture does not have to be enjoyed in the city of origin.)
Songs in my music library which mention Montreal (in order of decreasing... legendariness?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibs7I7D2b54 - Martin d'la Chasse-Galerie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tat2V97FYqE - Blues d'la Metropole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLVd6oMpn9o - Les Etoiles Filantes; kind of a 'Studio Ghibli does Quebec' vibe with the video, since all of the ugliness (and, in fact, ethnic diversity, but that's a separate discussion) of Montreal has been carefully cropped out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0-1GKXZEA - Les Peaux de Lievres
I haven't found any music of similar quality which mentions Toronto, although I'd be curious for a recommendation. There's got to be stuff that clears this fairly low bar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZnLjRi_g9o - Spadina Bus. Not sure if this is kind of neat... or just incredibly embarrassing. I guess "it's the 80's" just about sums things up?
Toronto generally seems to have this overwrought, kitschy aesthetic. It also shows up on some of the odder murals in the railway underpasses, and of course Honest Ed's: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ourfamilypicture/3727992137/
(Honest Ed's has to be seen in person, both inside and outside, to be properly believed. It's so kitschy that, on going inside, you get this weird feeling that all its kitsch has warped the architecture to such an extent that it exists in five dimensions.)
Also notable is the 'bug van', a mysterious contraption often seen in the vicinity of Dupont & Palmerston: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tamingnoise/5627880729/
The bug van's owner also has a house (see slideshow): http://www.blogto.com/arts/2009/02/art_of_bugs_of_toronto/
(I discover from that article that the van is actually called "Art of Bugs of Toronto". Indeed.)
Of course, it's not just 80's kitsch. Toronto kitsch doesn't go away, it just evolves. Here is the modern tradition of inviting star international architects to construct expensive three-dimensional graffiti, in full blossom:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/summer_ming/2242340387/ -- objects in Flickr appear prettier than they are in reality. Also, in winter potentially-lethal icicles tend to grow on the underside. Hooray for falling icicles!
http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Projects_and_initiatives/Spadina_subway_extension/Design/Steeles_West_Station.jsp -- They're still building kitsch into the outskirts of the subway system -- scroll down to "North Entrance and Substation".
http://www.flickr.com/photos/15945834@N05/6289256509/ -- this is actually kind of cool to see in real life. Not too hard to find, it's practically behind the Art Gallery of Ontario.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomcochrane/4561821742/ -- plastic totem poles and mummies that, again, look far, far more retarded when seen in real life without HDR.
(To be honest, the nicest-looking TTC subway station right now is probably Downsview. The one waay out in the suburbs.)
I saw on the news the other day that some study pegged Toronto as the second smartest city in the world. It was apparently the only Canadian city to make it onto the list.
That has been your weird trivia for today.
Today's weird trivia is somewhat misleading. After copious Googling, I have found plenty of studies. Here's the one where Toronto is, indeed, number two:
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/cities/top-10-smartest-cities-in-the-world/1654
But I haven't found any study that ranks cities as "smartest" in the obvious sense of "populated by the most intelligent people in quantity and/or quality". What is being measured is "previous city rankings in innovation, quality of life, sustainability, digital community, and digital governance." (I assume these rankings were assembled long before the Rob Ford era.)
Moreover, since it doesn't take an Einstein to make an announcement about putting "smart" stuff into the budget, and it doesn't take a Frederick the Great to come along on a tidal wave of right-wing populism two years and reverse all of the decisions, a large portion of what is being measured seems to be hot air.
Since these sorts of rankings are deeply within silly season, we could hardly do worse by looking at the almost certainly deeply flawed ranking of which city has the most people who obsess over taking IQ tests:
http://www.iqleague.com/group/smartest-city-in-the-world
... wherein we learn that the smartest city in Canada is supposedly Kamloops.
You gave way more thought to my silly trivia than I did.
... and apparently, this is now happening:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69910321@N03/6910719082/
I've heard of filmmakers dressing up Toronto to look like New York, but this is the first time (to my knowledge) anyone has been insane enough to try to dress it up to look like Japan. Either that or this was the most kickass April Fool's joke ever.
*shakes head*
As proof, voici street view of the same location from before we got taken over by Japan:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Elizabeth+Street,+Toronto,+ON,+Canada&hl=en&ll=43.654452,-79.384782&spn=0.005061,0.007178&sll=43.652022,-79.415209&sspn=0.010061,0.014355&oq=eliza&hnear=Elizabeth+St,+Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.654338,-79.384737&panoid=h7Z5zP5DVlI84vsTeXx1LA&cbp=12,270.86,,0,-0.4
Guess what, Torontofolk?
I'm coming to your awesome city, in a month! I've been asked to speak at a conference (http://www.ludicjunk.com/fig/), and I'll extend it into a vacation to see Toronto and maybe Montreal. I'll be flying on on May 3rd, flying out on May 13th.
The Toronto Island Airport is probably one of the most unfortunately placed passenger airports in the universe.
http://maps.google.com/?ll=43.628341,-79.396348&spn=0.020129,0.02871&t=h&z=15
I hear it's really convenient to get downtown though.
It involves taking a ferry, but yes.
May have photos later.
Toronto vs. the Windy City comparison (based on unfair and innacurate first impressions), in keeping with the 'city of subways' thread topic. I wonder how far off the mark this is:
Toronto has a self-similar fractal structure. Outside of the main downtown, there's a host of high-rise satellite 'downtowns' sort of strewn randomly about: downtown Missisauga, Yonge-Eglinton, Scarborough Centre, North York Centre, Six Points, not to mention a bunch of other random clumps of high-rises such as High Park which are too residential to be called a 'downtown' even in jest. These often coalesce due to the gravitational pull of either a subway station, or a mayoral ego. (Or, in the case of North York Centre, a mayoral ego demanding a subway station. And not just any station! An interchange station!)
Chicago has two areas: Downtown and Not Downtown. Almost all of the highrise buildings are in downtown -- Not Downtown seems to be mostly flat. Thus, in spite of actually having more people than Toronto, Chicago
feels smaller. You're either somewhere way out in suburbia, near downtown but looking in, or somewhere in downtown (which is fairly compact). In Toronto you go out... into a suburb-looking place... and you think that's it... and then you stumble on another clump of highrises... and it feels like it never ends...
This may have something to do with why public transit is more popular in Toronto -- for a city with a half-assed subway (with only two real lines to Chicago's six-or-so real lines), the system runs to a surprising amount of secondary destinations which have a moderate amount of stuff going on. The bus routes also funnel into the same secondary destinations, so it all more-or-less connects even if the buses suffer from horrible traffic.
By comparison, in Chicago only the Loop seems to be a reasonable center of gravity to anchor the El lines with. These go out into the suburbs, which are mostly uniform and thus don't manage to capture a significant amount of passengers in their catchment area.
Half assed statistics that show just how strong the difference in popularity ends up being:
- daily ridership of the 144-station Chicago El system (~600,000) < daily ridership of the 32-station Yonge-University-Spadina subway line in Toronto (~700,000)
- daily boardings of the El system inside the loop (~70,000) < daily traffic in Sheppard-Yonge station in North York Centre (satellite downtown, ~100,000), daily traffic in Bloor-Yonge station in downtown Toronto (~250,000)
On the other hand, because Chicago has one downtown and everyone knows it, the city arguably has a more iconic and unified image. This is something you don't see in Toronto where the subsidiary downtowns are/were competing for attention to some extent, with most of them being fairly bland. (Again, some of the regional centres exist for no reason other than mayoral ego.)
So, the nerdy conclusion is that if you want to design a city for public transit, make it have a self-similar fractal structure with pockets of density. On the other hand, if you want to design a city with an iconic feel, make sure you don't have any bland secondary centres that could compete with your main downtown.
Hmm, my impressions of Chicago have mostly been based on driving around. I hadn't actually used the public transit system until this summer there.
It's true that most of the stuff in Chicago is very centralized. Many of the museums are within walking distance of each other (if you don't mind walking, that is) and even though a "few blocks" can be a couple of miles, there's plenty of things to do for those few miles. Drive into Chicago for the day, park at one of the big lots on the edge of town, walk into town and entertain yourself. That's something my family has done since I've been young.
I did notice that the Chicago transit system feels much larger than the Toronto one, but my experiences are pretty limited. Also, when I think of Toronto I guess I really think of it as having one big, central part of downtown, then a bunch of....shopping centers? It's hard to explain because I'm only just now getting familiar with the various parts of the GTA. I'll probably read this in a year or two and think I was crazy for thinking that but, like I said, I'm still pretty new to the living in a huge city thing.
Which area of Toronto should I look to stay in?
Hm. I can't speak to the quality or pricing of any of the hotels, obviously. The conference is at the Bell Lightbox, right? Namely, this place:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=bell+lightbox&fb=1&gl=ca&hq=bell+lightbox&hnear=0x89d4cb90d7c63ba5:0x323555502ab4c477,Toronto,+ON&cid=0,0,5721766538735862166&ei=YTCZT82_JYaxgweinZT0Bg&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ_BIwAA
(Wikipedia is useful as it has an index of Toronto neighbourhoods:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Entertainment_District
Note that, at the bottom, there is an index of adjacent neighbourhoods, so you can click around most of the downtown core.)
I'd probably check the following areas out:
- In the vicinity of the Bell Lightbox (since you may as well be minutes of walking distance away from it).
- The vicinity of St. Lawrence Market (the area south of King and east of Yonge) is the oldest part of Toronto and is thus fairly neat. You will be dependent on either walking or the moderately-unreliable King streetcar to get to your venue.
- Areas in the vicinity of Bloor and Yonge, or the university (Bloor and Spadina) may be convenient if you have some reason to get around to more far-flung areas of the city (High Park, The Beaches, anywhere up north, &c) as well as downtown. You will be taking the subway most places, which is extremely reliable. Generally, in the areas I indicated, immediately north of Bloor is preferable to immediately south of Bloor.
I can't speak to the actual quality of the hotels, but those are interesting neighbourhoods.
You will want to consider how the public transit is anywhere you choose to stay, as taxis in Toronto are expensive. The subway is always a safe bet to locate on. Out of the streetcar lines, Spadina is the most reliable; King and Queen are the most hectic.
I'd probably think twice about staying in the following areas:
- Anywhere south of the rail corridor, as it is guaranteed to be deadly boring.
- Anything too close to City Hall, as it is also likely to be boring.
- The entire area east of Yonge and west of the river, unless someone specifically recommends a location to you (e.g. like I just recommended St. Lawrence Market). Some parts of it are very nice. Some parts of it are downright sketchy. I don't feel confident enough to untangle which is which for the purposes of staying there an extended period of time. For example, Queen and Jarvis I found to be an unpleasant intersection. That said, it's safe to explore during the day. I make no guarantees about what it's like at night.
If you find a hotel in some other neighbourhood, ask and I'll try to tell you what to expect.
That is where the conference is located, yes. But I'm actually looking to find a neighborhood to stay in from the 9th to the 13th; after the conference and after I get back from Montreal. Right now I'm looking at something at the corner of Yonge and Bloor. (Not actually a hotel.)
Quote from: Jon on April 26, 2012, 10:37:04 AM
That is where the conference is located, yes. But I'm actually looking to find a neighborhood to stay in from the 9th to the 13th; after the conference and after I get back from Montreal. Right now I'm looking at something at the corner of Yonge and Bloor. (Not actually a hotel.)
That's probably a solid choice (again, for the reason that it's easy to get to most locations from there). Where will you be staying during the actual conference?
The Hyatt near the lightbox, looks like.
It's probably too late to throw in my two cents, but the hotel we stayed in last year for the SR was really nice.
The front page of the subway dailies this morning had a headline about the current mayor's diet.
His diet. The mayor's diet.
what the hell is it with this city lately
Doesn't your mayor have a "fun" relationship with the news media?
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on May 28, 2012, 04:19:45 PM
The front page of the subway dailies this morning had a headline about the current mayor's diet.
His diet. The mayor's diet.
what the hell is it with this city lately
The TV news was covering it too.
I don't think it's really that bad. I mean, it's nice to show people trying to do a positive change in their lifestyle. Anyway, the Mayor and his brother made the diet public in the first place so it doesn't seem like a weird bit of news to cover.
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1204236--union-station-flooding-shuts-subway
Huh, so, yeah, I guess it rained a lot today.
The prime minister claims Calgary is the greatest city in Canada.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/07/11/calgary-harper-greatest-city.html
Silly Mr. Harper, it's completely obvious that the greatest city in Canada is Hamilton.
And Wawa, Ontario is obviously the second greatest city in Canada, because of the name.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=47.98096,-84.776173&spn=0.06676,0.114841&t=m&z=13
So, there's this uranium refinery.
http://goo.gl/maps/NPSxv
Huh. Apparently large scandal is go.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 08, 2012, 09:15:58 PM
So, there's this uranium refinery.
http://goo.gl/maps/NPSxv
Huh. Apparently large scandal is go.
I skimmed something about that but didn't really pick up on the details.
Our mayor is now a viral animated gif, so according to the laws of the Internets I am obligated to share it with you:
(http://i.imgur.com/h0s0F.gif)
Speaking of the mayor.....
Quote from: Music-chan on November 28, 2012, 12:05:32 AM
Speaking of the mayor.....
Don't worry -- if he gets barred from running for re-election, he says he's going to go into provincial politics!
Necessary Context: So, Mayor Rob Ford of Toronto was found guilty of conflict of interest due to accepting about $3,000 in donations for his football foundation from lobbyists. On facing legal challenge, he refused to pay back the money to the lobbyists or even read the relevant sections of the municipal code of conduct (saying he didn't need to because he knew what a conflict of interest was). Result: he has now been removed from the mayoralty by court order.
What I find amusing is how many of the news articles I've read say that removing Ford from office is an 'insult to the voters.' I'd think the voters should be more insulted that the person they elected didn't know how to follow the correct policies.