Unhandled Exception is a Haruhi story I'm working on, and I'm hoping to find some common ground in terms of interpretations and themes before committing to a totally fleshed out blueprint of the story to come.
The basic idea is this: Nagato realizes she's beginning to experience an error similar to the one in Disappearance, and to head it off, Kyon tries to help her express herself and her own will in a healthy way.
At this nascent stage in the story's fleshing-out, the obstacles to this effort are twofold: how can Kyon spend so much more time with Nagato while evading Haruhi's attentions, and how far will the IDSE go to resist Nagato's growing independence?
Key to this story is the interpretation of Nagato's "error" in Disappearance. Kyon himself describes it as Nagato beginning to feel yet lacking any way to express herself. Per the Brown translation, "You [Nagato] probably wanted to scream and rage and tell a certain person off. Well, that's what Nagato should've done, even if she didn't feel that way." Awkwardness of that translation aside, Kyon's viewpoint is clear. Nagato was designed not to express herself. I wanted to take this one step further: her mission--her mandate as an observer of Haruhi--prohibits her from affecting the status quo of brigade life.
With that in mind, let me put one point forward for discussion: in principle, Nagato is restricted only by the IDSE's will, but in practice, Haruhi's authority over the brigade means that, as much as Nagato is loyal to Kyon first and foremost, Haruhi is a driving force on her existence that cannot be defied and only indirectly influenced (via Kyon). I would use this interpretation to have Nagato find some reward and contentment in growing out of her role as the silent assent in the brigade. Nevertheless, I expect that this interpretation can be better honed and refined.
This leads naturally to some interaction with Haruhi, and as I said, Kyon can spend more time with Nagato for only so long before Haruhi gets wind of it. There are lots of ways Haruhi could choose to delve into this change of behavior, but regardless of her approach, the underlying reason--her attraction to Kyon--is clear, and I think this story would be an appropriate venue to explore Kyon's reticence to confront this issue. It seems unlikely to me that he is totally ignorant--rather, he chooses to gloss over it in narration and plays dumb for Koizumi. Kyon's reasons for doing so are not so clear, and that's the second issue I would like to investigate further: what are Kyon's reasons for avoiding this issue?
At any rate, I envision that Kyon's willigness to avoid that issue would carry over to Nagato if he suspected her desires to express herself indirectly related to some attraction toward him. This would be considerably sticky, for to continue to engage her and to help her come into her own as a more expressive person could be misconstrued as encouraging said attraction--the issue becomes impossible to keep avoiding.
So, that's another goal, essentially, of this story: to break the status quo in which Kyon has yet to acknowledge, if only to the reader, Haruhi's attraction to him, spurred on in part by Nagato's new course as well. What Kyon would choose here is a bit more open. What I'm aiming for right now is for Kyon to try to encourage Nagato to express herself while admitting that he cannot guarantee either now or in the future that he would reciprocate any feelings she might have for him. Personally, I don't see Nagato having a problem with this. Even in Disapparance, she gave him a choice. Even if he did feel something more for her then, feelings change, and that free will is exactly what she's aspiring for.
As for Kyon and Haruhi, I think by the end of this story, Kyon shall have at least admitted to the reader how Haruhi must feel and moreover make clear to her that he knows. That does not mean he must "give an answer" to any implicit confession or anything like that. Simply acknowledging that between them represents a step forward in their relationship, wherever it may go.
Finally, there's one more aspect I haven't covered, which is the IDSE's involvement. For an entity in which every aspect or manifestation of it has a directive, having Nagato pursue her own goals could be very troubling--troubling enough, I think, that the Entity would risk Haruhi's wrath to see the "disease" of free will eliminated and contained. But ultimately, the Entity has been looking to find the key to its further growth, and I envision Kyon, standing up for Nagato, convincing it in some way (either by confronting its mouthpieces in Kimidori and Asakura or in some other way) that Nagato's emotional development and ability to choose for herself represents the true path for auto-evolution. It's not Haruhi they should be looking at, and that at last can keep one faction from causing too much further trouble for them, especially considering how they were willing to hang Nagato out to dry in books 9-11.
Those are the three big goals, I guess: Kyon and Haruhi come to an understanding about her feeling for him, Nagato learns to express herself better, and the Entity is no longer so adversarial.
What of Koizumi? I guess he may end up trying to push Kyon toward Haruhi and away for Nagato. I admit, I don't at this time have any huge plans for him.
What of Asahina? Not sure where she would come down in these situations, to be honest. I'd appreciate input on this topic.
What of...Asakura?! Yes, I have an idea in my mind running about her coming back and, in Nagato's efforts to convince the Entity that her growing freedom is good, Nagato "liberates" Asakura from the pursuit of the Entity's goals, but what this results in is Asakura being the avatar of Nagato's jealousy toward Haruhi, so to speak, and pursuing actions that Nagato herself would never condone. In essence, Nagato herself remains clean while Asakura--in her own twisted "devotion" for Nagato--is willing to do much worse. I admit, this plotline is still somewhat undeveloped, but what Asakura represents to Kyon is a serious, visceral threat, and I feel her presence could help maintain tension in the story.
The bare-bones framework of the story would run as follows:
Nagato takes Kyon aside and informs him of a growing instability within her, and Kyon takes her out for the day to encourage her to act on her emotions. Nagato speaks up during a Brigade meeting, slightly tempering Haruhi's plans for a day.
The IDSE take notice of Nagato's growing freedom, and through Kimidori, the Entity delivers a threat--stop encouraging Nagato, or they find a way to circumvent his trump card. Kyon doesn't believe this possible at first, but when Haruhi confronts him, having heard mysteriously that he and Nagato spent a day together, Kyon realizes the Entity's intent--would Haruhi recreate the world at his whim to save Nagato if she's become jealous of the time he spent with her?
This forces Kyon to admit (at least to the reader) that Haruhi is attracted to him. He might try explaining to her how important it is to Nagato that she stop keeping her feelings bottled up--that way, he and Haruhi can work together to solve a problem, instead of him trying to fix things behind her back. Haruhi might actually have a good effect on Nagato in terms of helping her be more take-charge, and for this reason, when Asakura tries to intimidate Kyon, Nagato steps in and helps Asakura "see the light" about free will.
For a time, this seems to work, as through Asakura, Nagato's experiences are being spread throughout the Entity, but as Kyon and Haruhi grow closer, Nagato becomes distant, and Asakura returns to try to exact revenge against Haruhi for hurting Nagato. Haruhi survives this easily with her powers--though she may not even realize that that's what saves her at the time--but the chaos prompts the Entity to confront Kyon (perhaps speaking through numerous interfaces, each of which captures its will somewhat differently?), asking him, how can this be a good thing? But Kyon will say yes, while there may be pain involved in choosing one's own goals yet failing and other stuff, being able to pursue one's own direction is its own reward, and perhaps instead of pursuing Haruhi's powers, the Entity should consider purusing other goals and allowing different aspects of itself the freedom to do as they please, without an overriding goal of auto-evolution.
The Entity agrees, and even more interfaces come to Earth, not to observe Haruhi but humanity as a whole. Nagato is free to smile and speak up as she likes, and Kyon acknowledges Haruhi's feelings, while as yet being unsure what to do about them--for now, that mutual understanding is enough, and he's confident that Haruhi would never take his ability to choose away from him.
Again, the idea is all very nascent, and I'm particularly interested in any differences of canon interpretation (or plausible extensions thereof) that would affect this initial framework. Do these goals of mine resonate? Should Kyon respond to Haruhi after all? Is it too difficult a tightrope to walk balancing Haruhi against Nagato and their potentially competing desires?
That's just a fraction of the concerns I have, but I hope there's a seed of something good here--even if most of what's around it must be tweaked or cut to find it. It is my sincere hope that opening up the development process at this stage will help work out any significant issues regarding the tone and goals of the story, so that when the time to write the actual text comes around, the result will be more or less agreeable, instead of fundamentally askew of what people are interested in and hope to see in a piece.
Thanks for your attention.
I don't have a lot of cohesive thoughts to provide here, so I'm going to bullet what I've got; I tend to be better with the rapid back-and-forth in chat rather than an organized post. I've talked with Brian a bit on this to clarify my thoughts, and here's what I've got (in no particular order):
- This may be a bit over-plotted. Yuki developing and displaying more emotions could go in a lot of different directions, so I'd keep the framework of the story even more vague; Kyon tries to encourage her to develop free will, and perhaps not a lot more solid than that. The way her emotions develop could be really volatile, so I'd leave plenty of room for the plot to flex as the character evolves.
- I'm not sure I'd nail the fic to the IDSE becoming less adversarial; everything I'm seeing here points towards that relationship getting worse rather than better. Encouraging free will among its component parts is basically calling for the destruction of the IDSE as a cohesive collective, after all, and while it quite possibly might be the next stage of evolution for data lifeforms as a whole, it's death for the collective.
- Avoid flanderizing the characters. I'll admit that this was an issue for me with The Coin; even before some of the fridge horror implications kick in as Haruhi realizes her powers, I was having some serious concerns with the characterization of the rest of the Brigade -- most of them were almost like caricatures of their actual selves.
- Personal take here, but I see jealousy being a very small issue between Haruhi and Yuki. Depending on when this is set it seems pretty likely that Haruhi is going to be aware that Yuki and Kyon are close (albeit non-romantically); I'd also say that Yuki trying to turn this into romance seems like a bit of a stretch to me, given her personality and the place she's starting -- I strongly suspect she doesn't have a solid grasp of what friendship even means yet (although she has some ground work), much less a romantic relationship. And Kyon can encourage her growth a lot more simply by being a friend, rather than trying to figure out being her boyfriend. He himself has plenty of experience at being friends with people, and none with being in a romantic relationship -- and either one is going to be a significant learning process for Yuki.
To me, I think it kind of doubtful that Haruhi would see this as any kind of threat, unless Yuki and Kyon were careless enough to do something that looked like a date and let Haruhi find out about it. And if she did, I think it's less likely to make her jealous and more likely to make her worried; if anything, it'll make her more overt in making her feelings towards Kyon known, since in her perception Kyon's much more likely to have a deeper relationship with Yuki than the shallow physical attraction he's shown to Mikuru, which makes it a more serious threat -- one that she can't just yell at Kyon to negate.
So Kyon and Yuki aren't really trying to hide the time they're spending together; if anything, I think Haruhi simply tries to compete for more of Kyon's time (and probably somewhat rudely, at least at first), possibly to an extent that Kyon is forced to address the situation with both her and Yuki. - My biases towards Koizumi are well-known at this point, so I won't belabor them here. If you take my advice and go the 'misinterpreted friendship' route for the fic, Koizumi becomes a source of tension/irritation for Kyon as he tries to push him away from Yuki for fear of Haruhi's reaction (and probably misreads it entirely, even with the empathic link). If you want a slightly more sympathetic angle for him, you could show him feeling increasingly lost as nothing he expects to happen actually does, and he has to admit that he has no clue how the hell Haruhi really works.
- Mikuru is probably not going to be much more than a flavor character, although using her as a gauge to show Yuki becoming more like a regular human (and Mikuru overcoming her own fears) wouldn't be a bad minor angle for her to take. Depending on how adversarial the IDSE is to humanity in her native time, though, it could be an excuse for Mikuru to get some 'orders' to encourage Yuki's development in the hopes that it'll shatter the IDSE.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 08, 2012, 08:16:35 PM
The IDSE take notice of Nagato's growing freedom, and through Kimidori, the Entity delivers a threat--stop encouraging Nagato, or they find a way to circumvent his trump card. Kyon doesn't believe this possible at first, but when Haruhi confronts him, having heard mysteriously that he and Nagato spent a day together, Kyon realizes the Entity's intent--would Haruhi recreate the world at his whim to save Nagato if she's become jealous of the time he spent with her?
Since you've indicated that this is going to be set after the last released novel I feel that there would have to be something really out of sorts happening in order for Kyon to believe that Haruhi might recreate the world in a fit of jealousy over him seeming to get closer to Yuki. Now I could see it if the IDSE spun the information in a way that made it seem leagues worse than what was actually happening, but then you have the problem of having Haruhi actually believe it. At this point even if they aren't sure of their relationship I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that Haruhi trusts Kyon and his judgment most of the time.
I would find a growing amount of emotional instability to be more fitting. It gives Koizumi a reason to pry; he wants to vent the pressure off before there actually is an incident. It would also show that Haruhi is conflicted: she considers both people to be her friends, but even if she seems consciously willing to let them try her inner turmoil over it can still represent a problem.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 08, 2012, 08:16:35 PM
What of...Asakura?! Yes, I have an idea in my mind running about her coming back and, in Nagato's efforts to convince the Entity that her growing freedom is good, Nagato "liberates" Asakura from the pursuit of the Entity's goals, but what this results in is Asakura being the avatar of Nagato's jealousy toward Haruhi, so to speak, and pursuing actions that Nagato herself would never condone. In essence, Nagato herself remains clean while Asakura--in her own twisted "devotion" for Nagato--is willing to do much worse. I admit, this plotline is still somewhat undeveloped, but what Asakura represents to Kyon is a serious, visceral threat, and I feel her presence could help maintain tension in the story.
I'm speaking here with obvious and clear bias, so take what I say with anywhere from a grain to a silo of salt if need be.
My memory is a little hazy, but from their last encounter, it seems like Ryoko might already be rather pro free will. This specific excerpts in particular:
"So there's no point in my trying to fight you, then. Fair enough. I only plan on acting according to my own will. Nagato-san taught me that, you know. That's where exactly the potential for independent evolution truly lies. Didn't you know, Kimidori-san? She has long ceased to be a simple terminal. In which case, don't you think that we too might hold that same potential?"
"Nagato-san and I are like reflections in a mirror. Can you understand that? I'm much more akin to Nagato-san than Kimidori-san is. The Interface you're looking at right now won't lift a finger to help you. Her job is, after all, merely to observe."
This isn't to say that Ryoko can't be a threat. I think that if anything she may grow to be jealous of Yuki's growing freedom. If given the chance to engage in her own whims though, she's no doubt going to prove provocative at best, and an unbelievably dangerous threat at worst. I could see her going to Haruhi and trying to break the masquerade herself if given the slimmest chance, because to her that's just the swiftest course of action to seeing "something interesting" as she'd probably put it.
That's all that really strikes me at the moment. I'll try and think upon this more and get back to you.
Thanks for talking a look at this, Hal and Grahf. Starting with Hal:
- Agreed, ultimately Nagato's growth will have to be organic, so it may be a mistake on my part to try to plan around her reactions when I don't know how her reactions are going to feel. Hm, not sure what to do here, but I'll mull over it and see what I can do to open things up a bit more.
- Right, so lemme elaborate on the IDSE part of the story a bit further: the way I envisioned it, Kyon persuades the IDSE to consider the possibility as an alternative to being fixated on Haruhi. In the end, the IDSE has the choice to decide, but I admit there was some coolness factor for me, thinking that Kyon could put together such an impassioned argument that he could change the mind of an entire data entity. But that's all contingent on if the IDSE could be persuaded at all, which seems to be part of what you're getting at. I guess some of this involves how the IDSE is structured at all. If it's more like a single computer system with a bunch of programs that have small, well-defined tasks, it would indeed be very resistant to any kind of dismantling. If it's more like a conglomeration of data creatures, then why would they need to reassert free will at all? Hm. Ultimately, I would like to see something where the IDSE lose interest in Haruhi and thus become less of a menacing presence. I admit, though, if the Entity can't be persuaded Nagato is pursuing a "good thing," then there's no real avenue for doing that. I'm unsure if that means the goal will have to be discarded or another avenue chosen to get there, but you're right to point out that it is very sticky.
- Yeah, I feel like I tried too hard to start The Coin in a light fashion and went too far trying to go for amusement and humor before seriousness ensued later on, among other issues.
- I did think that, a little bit, while cleaning up the outline for posting. Nagato wouldn't ask for anything other than friendship, would she. She's too used to subjugating her own wishes for others, and that's even presuming she would understand the difference between love and friendship well enough to choose one over the other. So if that element stands (and I admit I may end up cutting it), it may end up more like Kyon fears this (based on his experience in Disappearance) rather than Nagato actually tries to push for anything romantic. Even then, it would just take one question on Kyon's part to get all of that cleared up, so I'll have to mull over what can be done to salvage this aspect, if anything.
Regarding Haruhi, I did feel like her reaction shouldn't be more typical tsundere stuff. She's more mature than she was at the onset of canon, and she can push to get more of Kyon's time without being obnoxious about it. And I do like the notion that Kyon and Nagato's close relationship--one that is outwardly warm--will encourage Haruhi to seek something with Kyon that's less...I dunno, subtextual?
It's interesting you suggest Kyon shouldn't hide his time with Nagato. I admit, I thought initially Kyon would try to be discreet knowing that Haruhi might have a bad reaction, but not going to undue lengths to stay hidden feels like a good idea--it would speed things up a bit and show that Kyon feels his relationship with Nagato isn't something he'll ever be embarrassed about or hide. If that's the gist of your thinking on this, too, I'm willing to go with that.
- On Koizumi: that's more or less how my thinking went, too, foreseeing that he would try to push Kyon away from Nagato for fear of Haruhi's reaction. Something that occurs to me just on the spot is that Kyon could point out that Koizumi is one to fear Haruhi where Kyon is willing to show trust that she can grow and deal with things that are averse to her constructively. At best, this would persuade Koizumi to stop being as much of an obstacle or annoyance, but...that's all really secondary to the story, and I figure his role will shift based on how things develop. Best not to get too detailed with it in advance, right?
- On Asahina: Agreed, there are a couple minor things that she could do.
Now, for Grahf:
QuoteSince you've indicated that this is going to be set after the last released novel I feel that there would have to be something really out of sorts happening in order for Kyon to believe that Haruhi might recreate the world in a fit of jealousy over him seeming to get closer to Yuki. Now I could see it if the IDSE spun the information in a way that made it seem leagues worse than what was actually happening, but then you have the problem of having Haruhi actually believe it. At this point even if they aren't sure of their relationship I don't think it's that much of a stretch to say that Haruhi trusts Kyon and his judgment most of the time.
I would find a growing amount of emotional instability to be more fitting. It gives Koizumi a reason to pry; he wants to vent the pressure off before there actually is an incident. It would also show that Haruhi is conflicted: she considers both people to be her friends, but even if she seems consciously willing to let them try her inner turmoil over it can still represent a problem.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Kyon really thought Haruhi would remake the world in a fit of jealousy. More that Kyon feels more comfortable with the possibility of unlocking Haruhi's power in a pinch if she's getting on well with people and not brooding over something. It's good for Haruhi not to have her distressed about something, and it's good for the brigade's safety, too. At least, that's the idea. I think I presented this a bit strongly; perhaps whatever the IDSE do, Haruhi should mostly see through it---or
say she sees through it but to herself she's conflicted, like you say?
On Asakura: that's right, I think I had that plot point buried somewhere in some other notes, and I'm much happier with that than what I have up here. Asakura wouldn't be Kimidori's attack dog, then, but a potential ally against the consensus of the IDSE. A volatile and potentially dangerous ally, but an ally of sorts nonetheless. Kyon would be hesitant at best to accept her, though, and since she's more or less kept under wraps by Kimidori, it might be difficult to justify her getting involved. I'd be interested to see if there's something that comes to mind regarding her coming into the story in a natural way.
Thank you both for the comments. I feel like this has been quite helpful in identifying some issues.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 10, 2012, 12:50:35 PM
- Agreed, ultimately Nagato's growth will have to be organic, so it may be a mistake on my part to try to plan around her reactions when I don't know how her reactions are going to feel. Hm, not sure what to do here, but I'll mull over it and see what I can do to open things up a bit more.
The best recommendation I can make is to just keep an eye on the desired endpoint(s) and focus on the showing the characterization changes. Like you said, it's going to be hard to predict how Yuki is going to react in this, so figuring that out and then adapting those reactions to move the plot towards where you want it to end is probably your best course.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 10, 2012, 12:50:35 PM
- Right, so lemme elaborate on the IDSE part of the story a bit further: the way I envisioned it, Kyon persuades the IDSE to consider the possibility as an alternative to being fixated on Haruhi. In the end, the IDSE has the choice to decide, but I admit there was some coolness factor for me, thinking that Kyon could put together such an impassioned argument that he could change the mind of an entire data entity. But that's all contingent on if the IDSE could be persuaded at all, which seems to be part of what you're getting at. I guess some of this involves how the IDSE is structured at all. If it's more like a single computer system with a bunch of programs that have small, well-defined tasks, it would indeed be very resistant to any kind of dismantling. If it's more like a conglomeration of data creatures, then why would they need to reassert free will at all? Hm. Ultimately, I would like to see something where the IDSE lose interest in Haruhi and thus become less of a menacing presence. I admit, though, if the Entity can't be persuaded Nagato is pursuing a "good thing," then there's no real avenue for doing that. I'm unsure if that means the goal will have to be discarded or another avenue chosen to get there, but you're right to point out that it is very sticky.
I think having Asakura as an ally in this is a big help. As you said, if it's a conglomeration of distinct, individual programs there's no need to gain 'free will', as she already has it, while if it's more of a collective consciousness composed of a bunch of slave processes that it uses to perform the nuts and bolts of its functions, the emergence of free and distinct will is a definite threat.
If it's the latter, then the IDSE has to know that keeping semi-independent processes in charge of individual interfaces to deal with humanity is a risk to begin with, but perhaps they're simply picking their processes carefully to try to ensure that no one they send in has any predisposition to 'defecting'. The exposure to Haruhi and Kyon that Asakura and Yuki both get might be enough to get them thinking in unusual directions, though.
Given the nature of Asakura's faction and her own actions in early canon, I suspect that her faction within the IDSE is probably one of the biggest proponents of this change -- even knowing that it will probably shatter the IDSE as a whole, I suspect they're willing to bet on individual factions of like-minded processes surviving the breakdown, probably correctly too. They're freed to do whatever they feel is necessary to advance their own cause, and they more or less bootstrap the other factions into having to act on their own rather than waiting for a larger consensus.
She could make an extremely worrisome and frightening ally, but that's half the interesting part of the fic.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 10, 2012, 12:50:35 PM
- Regarding Haruhi, I did feel like her reaction shouldn't be more typical tsundere stuff. She's more mature than she was at the onset of canon, and she can push to get more of Kyon's time without being obnoxious about it. And I do like the notion that Kyon and Nagato's close relationship--one that is outwardly warm--will encourage Haruhi to seek something with Kyon that's less...I dunno, subtextual?
It's interesting you suggest Kyon shouldn't hide his time with Nagato. I admit, I thought initially Kyon would try to be discreet knowing that Haruhi might have a bad reaction, but not going to undue lengths to stay hidden feels like a good idea--it would speed things up a bit and show that Kyon feels his relationship with Nagato isn't something he'll ever be embarrassed about or hide. If that's the gist of your thinking on this, too, I'm willing to go with that.
Yeah, that's more or less the case about Kyon's view, I think. He
is close friends with Yuki, but given what they've done for each other (even if what he himself has done has mostly been encouraging her and showing willingness to face down the IDSE for her) it's natural that they'd be close. Kyon can skirt the details, but I suspect he could still provide an explanation that would get the gist of the matter across to Haruhi without breaking the masquerade -- I did something similar to this in UR with Kyon's review of Yuki.
If you wanted to keep the romance angle for Yuki in, I'd push it back. One scenario:
1. Yuki and Kyon get closer (just as friends) as she develops more emotions and tries to gain more free will.
2. Haruhi misinterprets this as one or the other of them trying to kick their relationship up a notch into something more romantic, and starts making more overt advances on Kyon herself -- and demanding that he come to some conclusions himself.
3. Yuki sees what Haruhi is doing, compares it with what she's learned about romance, and starts to make her -own- romantic inroads with Kyon -- probably clumsily at first, and possibly as a result of a misunderstanding; she might believe that Kyon and Haruhi stepping up to a romance would mean that the relationship she's got with him gets left by the wayside.
This makes Haruhi's worries about the two of them something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but could probably be sorted out without any tears if Kyon can work out just what's motivating everyone. Personally, I see Yuki being perfectly satisfied with more or less being Kyon's best friend; even if he's dating Haruhi, I think she's okay remaining a friend and Haruhi's most likely okay with him maintaining that friendship.
Yeah, you know, I'm really liking the idea of Asakura as an ally, since it does go so naturally with her dialogue that Grahf quoted. So, let me follow that for a moment: Asakura is an ally against the greater consensus of the IDSE, let's say. The face of that consensus is going to be Kimidori, most likely. None of that bothers me. I guess the issues would be how to get Asakura out from under the limited control Kimidori has over her (being able to, what, revoke Asakura's existence if the latter misbehaves?). I'm thinking Nagato would likely have something to do with that, if anything. Perhaps she would see an alliance with Asakura's faction as finally beneficial to Kyon and the brigade, under the circumstances.
As far as the romance angle goes, I think I'm content to see how things develop (but Hal, your blueprint seems like a good basic framework if I do want to go down that path in particular). If I had to say right now, I'd probably go down to 2 with Nagato and stop there. I admit, there's a certain appeal (to me) to Nagato and Kyon having a relationship that is very close but...transcending (?) of romantic feeling, or something. Simply not getting into any romantic vibes there feels better to me right at this moment, too. The closeness between Kyon and Nagato ought to be enough to push Haruhi to get closer.
I guess the other missing piece for me (at this point) is figuring out whether (a) Kyon really is aware Haruhi is attracted to him and (b) why he chooses not to acknowledge that to the reader, to others, etc. Is he ignoring it because he's uncomfortable thinking about it? Does he think she's too intense for him at first, but as some of her edge comes off later, it's something he could consider after all?
I realize now that my initial idea (which was very rough) was that he was indeed, on some level, deliberately ignoring the matter, and I thought by forcing him into a position where ignoring it would be counterproductive, Kyon would be compelled to change the circumstances between him and Haruhi, but it occurs to me that Kyon could just as easily think that Haruhi's grown to the point that he's no longer so averse to confronting that issue.
The difference between the two is that the former could connects a little bit with the guilt Kyon felt over not seeing the warning signs of Nagato's breakdown before Disappearance--doing that makes it about more than just him and Haruhi but about the way he approaches things, the way he handles situations. To what end this would go is, I admit, unclear to me, but this is the kind of thing that is on my mind and that I'm trying to weigh. I know one reservation I have about this whole line of thinking is that it could end up wandering into unnecessary angst if Kyon beats himself up too much over things that really aren't so much his fault (e.g. he's not the one who designed Nagato to be muted in her expressions, etc.).
Trying to get Asakura back into the mix might prove to provide some interesting emotional development. This is all speculation of course, but there's always been some questioning to the motivation behind why Yuki brought Ryoko -- or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof -- into the Disappearance!verse. If Yuki does have some attachment, or even in the extreme case something akin to a sisterly affection for Ryoko, then it would be at odds with the fact that she's probably well aware of how Kyon feels about Ryoko.
In the end it probably would come down to Yuki's involvement. Again, drawing from novel 10:
"Well, I'm sorry, but the question of maintaining this form for any extended period is out of my hands. If you have any complaints in that area, I'd suggest you direct them to our lovely senpai [Kimidori] over there and the dominant faction of the Integrated Data Thought Entity. Why don't you try asking Nagato-san? If she agrees to it, why I might even be able to come back from Canada."
Would Yuki want to make a decision that will most likely put her at odds with Kyon? It would give her an opportunity to assert some independence from him as well, and to attempt to express her own opinions on the matter. There's nothing saying that Kyon would necessarily then be on board, but it might also cause him to realize that if Yuki does grow more independent or even free from the IDSE then she'll also have to go independence from relying on his permission to do so as well. After all it would be hypocritical of him to promote her freedom, but then completely veto something she feels strongly about while knowing that she'd probably yield to his discretion in the matter.
I feel that it would at the very least be a good chance to get some interesting dialogue out of the pair.
As for whether Kyon is aware that Haruhi has feelings for him, I feel that at this point his level of obviousness would have to be epic if he hadn't realized something. As to why he hasn't acted, there could be any number of reasons. I think that at this point he's comfortable with the knowledge that if he feels any mutual attraction then it's because of his own volition, rather than the nature of her powers forcing him to reciprocate. Still, unintended consequences of trying to advance their relationship would probably weigh heavily on him. I also feel that for Kyon the status quo is a powerfully attractive thing; he's not going to risk his own place and potentially the place of his friends unless there's a very good reason to do so. Haruhi getting tired of his reticence regarding where they stand would probably qualify as a very good reason in most books.
QuoteTrying to get Asakura back into the mix might prove to provide some interesting emotional development. This is all speculation of course, but there's always been some questioning to the motivation behind why Yuki brought Ryoko -- or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof -- into the Disappearance!verse. If Yuki does have some attachment, or even in the extreme case something akin to a sisterly affection for Ryoko, then it would be at odds with the fact that she's probably well aware of how Kyon feels about Ryoko.
My gut feeling tells me it may have to do with how Asakura was granted the ability to express emotions (even if she couldn't understand them) vs. how Nagato has little ability to express those feelings. Asakura is in a lot of ways Nagato's opposite. I think that makes her someone Nagato hopes to understand. Whether she could actually have some affection for Asakura--I admit I see the possibility based on
Disappearance, but it's something I can't quite see how it would've developed or why, by that point.
QuoteWould Yuki want to make a decision that will most likely put her at odds with Kyon? It would give her an opportunity to assert some independence from him as well, and to attempt to express her own opinions on the matter. There's nothing saying that Kyon would necessarily then be on board, but it might also cause him to realize that if Yuki does grow more independent or even free from the IDSE then she'll also have to go independence from relying on his permission to do so as well. After all it would be hypocritical of him to promote her freedom, but then completely veto something she feels strongly about while knowing that she'd probably yield to his discretion in the matter.
I feel that it would at the very least be a good chance to get some interesting dialogue out of the pair.
Indeed, Kyon would have to be on board with what she does. I guess I could imagine him being very, very hesitant at first, but he'd think better of that, and if Nagato tells him she thinks this is the best course, he would ultimately trust her.
QuoteAs for whether Kyon is aware that Haruhi has feelings for him, I feel that at this point his level of obviousness would have to be epic if he hadn't realized something. As to why he hasn't acted, there could be any number of reasons. I think that at this point he's comfortable with the knowledge that if he feels any mutual attraction then it's because of his own volition, rather than the nature of her powers forcing him to reciprocate. Still, unintended consequences of trying to advance their relationship would probably weigh heavily on him. I also feel that for Kyon the status quo is a powerfully attractive thing; he's not going to risk his own place and potentially the place of his friends unless there's a very good reason to do so. Haruhi getting tired of his reticence regarding where they stand would probably qualify as a very good reason in most books.
Yeah, I think I agree with this. Kyon feels to me like a change averse person--but this is what makes Haruhi a good foil to him. She's proactive, and while she may have been too proactive in the past, I feel like the way she pushes things forward is something that could appeal to him, as long as it's not too fast and in moderation.
I don't have much to add, since I haven't internalized the Haruhiverse as much as you veterans have so far. Overall this sounds fascinating.
Can Yuki change her own nature with Haruhi's help? I don't think she can be independent of the IDSE or gain fully human emotions any more than you or I can cast a reality-altering spell.
QuoteKyon will say yes, while there may be pain involved in choosing one's own goals yet failing and other stuff, being able to pursue one's own direction is its own reward, and perhaps instead of pursuing Haruhi's powers, the Entity should consider purusing other goals and allowing different aspects of itself the freedom to do as they please, without an overriding goal of auto-evolution.
Isn't this autoevolution in itself? I mean if the IDSE were to change itself to allow its components emotions and free will, isn't that an entirely new dimension of existence for them?
IDSE must have some kind of feelings already. Why else would it want to evolve, and what is its goal? On the other hand, the human interfaces were created specifically because the thought entity is incredibly different from humans. The big question is, why would something so alien want to experience the universe the same way we do? Yuki and Asakura don't really understand emotions. The emulation is accurate enough to fool humans, but - for the IDSE - what's the point anyway?
Asking Haruhi's help would require either letting Haruhi know what the deal is or managing to get her to do it without letting her know about the masquerade? There might be a possibility there, but I'm not sure I see it. Do you have something in mind?
As for what autoevolution is, I mean, I guess that's pretty nebulous. For all its power, the IDSE is still limited in ways that Haruhi is not. I guess I thought those limitations of power were what the IDSE must want to see lifted. Autoevolution carries the implication that the self is evolving without external forces, but that could mean a lot of things.
I'd thought Nagato had some level of emotions and free will in general--her actions in Disappearance defied the will of the IDSE, and they were rooted in emotions (even if she couldn't understand them). What I'm going for (which, admittedly, may be flawed or simplistic) is that these new perspectives and emotions allow the IDSE to pursue other goals, to seek out something other than just the evolution of itself into something greater. Perhaps part of it could be a refutation of the idea of evolution as a progression from simple to advanced. The IDSE isn't necessarily meant to make itself better or more powerful, just as humans aren't. People simply change based on their experiences, as much as time makes more complex and sophisticated things possible.
So, that aspect of it may lie somewhere between "progression is an illusion and one should live in the moment" and "enriching oneself by embracing new experiences and perspectives is an alternative path toward autoevolution too". I'm not really sure yet; I'll probably pin that point down with the next outline, based on all the feedback so far.
So, for the IDSE the quantity of knowledge and experiences would be more important than the quality? I think that's an argument Kyon could successfully make. He's in a unique position to do it. He could even cite the dynamics of the SOS brigade and the existience of factions within the IDSE as a reason to explore individualism.
I think having Haruhi strongarm the IDSE would change the story's mood considerably. Either approach is good, and if Kyon considers both paths you can make the reader wonder if the IDSE would ever agree. Is Kyon presuming to understand too much? I'd love to read a scene where Kyon convinces the IDSE without any help, but it would require serious finesse.
I also appreciate your perspective on evolution. I'm one of the many who disagree with the modern evolutionary synthesis. Although biological evolution is different, the question of that information's origin is still paramount. Meaningful, codified information comes only from other intelligent sources and can be interpreted only by intelligent beings, or systems designed by intelligent beings (such as computers or Yuki). Now, Yuki is probably modeled after humans. The origin of her emotions is as mysterious as the origin of our DNA.
This parallel is interesting because it could lead to the IDSE taking the new data from humans. It could end with Yuki ascending to godhood.
Oh, yeah. In your story, has the IDSE undergone autoevolution before?
Agreed, any interaction between Kyon and the IDSE directly (if such is even possible; I'd originally imagined such a thing, but it seems problematic on several levels now) would require a lit of precision to make it seem plausible.
Right, the evolution take is something that could be pretty interesting for this story. Time makes increasingly complex systems possible, but that doesn't mean those systems are necessarily better or more superior. We as human beings are much more susceptible to interruptions in our living conditions than, say, the simplest bacteria.
I don't know that Nagato would want to ascend to "godhood" though. Perhaps, as the example of enriching herself through emotions and exerting her will, she would become a bit of a celebrity among the various components of the IDSE, but I don't know that she would want to leave the existence she's in.
Has the IDSE undergone autoevolution before? I can't know for sure. I'd say probably not, for if it had, one would wonder why it couldn't keep doing so.
So here is an in-depth outline, with all the gory details. I regard outlining to this level of detail as somewhat experimental; I'm well aware that it may leave too little room for things to breathe and grow, but I'm hoping having a clear path ultimately helps me avoid having to figure some things out on the fly--which, at times, I've found very crippling.
Preliminary outline:
1.
1.1. Sunday. Kyon dreams about the other Nagato (from Disappearance), feeling some regret for shooting down that person that Nagato may have aspired to be. He tries to settle his thoughts as the Brigade meets up to do a city search. Haruhi's destination is a used bookstore, and Kyon takes this time to fill in the reader on Haruhi's more relaxed pursuit of the paranormal. Koizumi is encouraged by the relative peace. Asahina, too, is quite happy, but Kyon isn't sure what will happen to her once she graduates and how that will change the brigade, but this isn't really the time to worry, is it? That only leaves Nagato, who's as quiet as ever. Haruhi keeps asking for Kyon's opinion, pointing out books on various esoteric topics Kyon has referred to or mentioned in the past--this isn't really about finding paranormal books but something Kyon might like as a gift for his birthday, which she found out about from Kyon's sister. Kyon is unaware of this, however, and thus he misinterprets Haruhi's continued asking as trying to get him more involved, which he responds to with only measured interest. After a fashion, Haruhi declares their time at the shop over, and when Kyon tries to say that Nagato is still looking at books, Haruhi asks Nagato directly, but Nagato is unable to defend herself, as Haruhi says Nagato would speak up if she objected--and also that, if she does object, she should say so herself. Thus, the Brigade leave, but Nagato slips Kyon a bookmark asking to meet later on: she thinks she may be experiencing an error again.
1.2. After the Brigade separate, Kyon takes a circuitous route, starting toward his home but coming back to the coffee shop per Nagato's request. He thinks on how Nagato behaved in the days before she stole Haruhi's power, how there were maybe very small signs. Has he not been paying attention? When he arrives at the cafe, Nagato is waiting for him in front, and they go together to a table. She explains how she has been trying to make sense of the error that took hold of her before in the hopes of avoiding a similar breakdown, but she does not understand, and Kyon tries to tell her it's because the Entity made her to hold everything in and be obedient. To Nagato, the idea of going against the Entity's will is difficult to comprehend, but that's exactly what she did, after all. Nagato doesn't express herself because that isn't what Haruhi expects, and it may disrupt the status quo, but Kyon points out another error incident would disrupt the situation more. Persuaded, Nagato resolves to think on when and where she might try asserting herself. Kyon is pleased. (Midway through the conversation, Kunikida runs into them, asking about Tsuruya to make small talk, but he leaves them alone. Kyon thinks nothing of it, even though Nagato seems slightly on edge, having been seen.)
1.3. The next day, Monday, Kyon goes to school. He's pestered all morning on his way out the door by his sister, who thinks it's somehow cool for teenage boys to have big birthday parties with their family. Kyon hasn't cared for parties like that for a while. It's not bad to see some relatives now and then, but being the center of attention means he's usually expected to make rounds and visit with each and every relative, which can be awkward. His sister constantly teases that someone important (Haruhi) has been in touch with her about the impending birthday, but Kyon refuses to play games. Also involved in this conversation is Kyon's mother, a stay-at-home mom who maintains a popular blog on events and attractions within the city--something her parents disapprove of, being traditionalists who think she should stay out of public view. It's important to Kyon's mother to show the rest of her family that he's a good kid, and that's part of why so many people will be invited, but Kyon silently gripes about how it's nothing he particularly cares for. The party will be on Saturday, and Kyon's mother is determined to impress, all of which Kyon finds somewhat irritating.
Kyon gets to school and his desk, and Haruhi seems a bit lost in thought. At first, she's coy with Kyon, asking if he has a secret life outside the brigade (Kyon: I'm the last person you should be asking that question to), but eventually, it comes out that Kunikida mentioned seeing Kyon to Taniguchi, who relentlessly presses Kyon about it. This is what Haruhi's been asking about, and while she's not confrontational, she seems curious how Kyon and Nagato grew so close. Kyon is hard-pressed to answer this, growing uncomfortable, but eventually, he tries to enlist Haruhi in helping Nagato, saying that Nagato hasn't felt comfortable standing up for herself or giving her input before, always going along with things. Haruhi is quite perturbed by this, saying that all brigade members should speak their minds, but Kyon manages to focus that reaction constructively, saying Nagato can be helped this way a little at a time. Haruhi agrees to think about it, relieving Kyon somewhat.
1.4. At lunch, Haruhi says they should have lunch together and tells Kyon to meet him by the club annex. She goes quickly to the cafeteria to get something, and Kyon waits outside. Haruhi comes by with lunch and says they should go to the club room, which is where Nagato will be. When they get there, Haruhi asks Nagato if she wants to dress up the way Asahina does. Kyon isn't sure what to make of this, but he thinks Haruhi must be doing this for a reason, so he lets it play out. Haruhi shoos Kyon out, which irritates him because he leaves his lunch in there, but when he comes in, he finds Nagato in stockings, dressed like a librarian with glasses. It's very cute, despite Nagato's stone face, and Haruhi starts planning that Nagato would be the Brigade's official secretary, taking minutes during meetings and such. Nagato seems unenthused with this, and on Kyon's nod, she says she would rather read. At that, Haruhi is not at all taken aback, and she shoos Kyon out again to get Nagato back in uniform for afternoon classes. Kyon confronts Haruhi about this charade afterward, noting that Haruhi must've had that librarian outfit there all along, and Haruhi is guilty there, but hopefully Nagato has more of a sense of how to express herself, and Haruhi thinks that is good. Kyon is relieved to have Haruhi's help in that matter, but as Haruhi goes back to return her lunch tray to the cafeteria, Kyon runs into Kimidori, who says they must soon speak on how Kyon is undermining the Entity.
2.
2.1. Kimidori leaves Kyon to think on that for the rest of the afternoon classes, with Kyon keenly aware how he and the Entity are not on good terms. His view of the interfaces it that they're not human, not relatable, save for Nagato, and as such, discussions with them may not be so productive. The afternoon goes quickly, as Haruhi has no specific plans but she monopolizes the computer, forbidding anyone else from looking at what she's doing, save for Nagato (who would never speak of it anyway). When Kyon gets his shoes to go home, he finds a note from Kimidori, asking to meet. Nagato is near, offering to accompany him. They meet with Kimidori on the rooftop, the place where Nagato, Asakura, and Kimidori watched when Haruhi was attacked by Kuyou. Kimidori says that Nagato has directives from the consensus of the IDSE, and Kyon's advice is interfering with that. Kyon argues that such obedience and suppression of her reactions is stifling Nagato and will only cause another incident, and Kimidori would sooner have Nagato repurposed (destroyed) than help her. Kyon insists he will help Nagato find herself as he sees fit, and he holds the trump card. Kimidori is unamused.
2.2. The next morning, Tuesday, Haruhi comes in with a mysterious note, bearing the same symbol that she put on the grounds of East Middle with John Smith. It's not necessarily supernatural, so it's not the Brigade's business, but Haruhi tries to recruit Kyon in finding out who put that drawing in her mailbox, but this involves her telling him about John Smith, and that makes Kyon panic, trying to weasel out of it, which confuses Haruhi. Kyon consults Nagato at lunch, who tells him that the IDSE do not know what Kyon did that day to encourage Haruhi, but they know what Haruhi left behind for them. They hope Haruhi will inadvertently nullify the trump card, whatever it is (and Kyon should not discuss it with Nagato). Like with putting Nagato up to contacting the SCD, this seems like a petty gesture to hassle Kyon more than an effective measure, but it still causes problems. Eventually, Kyon makes a point to go back to Haruhi and pretend he was just offended she never mentioned it and was jealous of John for having such an influence on Haruhi's life. This puts them back on good terms for now, but when Haruhi plans to investigate this happening, Kyon knows it will be difficult. (It's safest if Haruhi ends up telling Kyon as little as possible, of course, so Kyon will probably try to end the conversation initially before Haruhi can say too much.)
2.3. Brigade activities that afternoon consist of going around Haruhi's neighborhood to find out who left the card in Haruhi's mailbox. Of course, most of the neighborhood parents are well aware of Haruhi's nature and put up with her as best they can. Koizumi takes this time to approach Kyon about the wisdom of this course: the only reason they are in this mess is because Kyon insisted on interfering with the IDSE for Nagato's sake, yet he is reluctant to use the "trump card" to make Kimidori's interference impossible. Kyon examines the possibility, ultimately rejecting it. Destroying the IDSE outright or altering them with Haruhi's powers isn't something he should do without serious thought--ethics as a discipline can be convoluted and overdone, but this is a big deal. Further, it would mean revealing that he is John Smith to Haruhi. That would change everything. Haruhi holds that person dearly in her heart. Kyon will not consider walking into that position lightly, yet Koizumi is amused that Kyon doesn't think himself already there, and he resents the notion that he is supposed to walk in and make Haruhi the picture of stability. Koizumi points out that Kyon is in a difficult position: keeping the status quo will be difficult, and figuring out the right course means figuring out what Kyon wants out of it. Nagato is becoming more involved, more human. What's more important: Nagato's growth, Haruhi's stability, their friendships, something else? Like it or not, the Entity has reacted to Kyon like he's provoked them. Standing pat may seem like the easiest course, but inaction is a choice like any action is, and Kyon may have to consider deeds that he'd rather avoid. While Koizumi has tried to keep Haruhi's power contained in the past, he now has faith that Kyon can guide her toward using those powers well, if the need should arise. Their discussion concludes with one of Haruhi's neighbors saying she saw a man walk by Haruhi's house. Kimidori seems intent on constructing an elaborate charade to keep the topic of John Smith fresh in Haruhi's mind, so that the trump card can eventually be invalidated.
2.4. The Brigade will reconvene the next day, but Kyon is troubled over Kimidori's activities. He and Nagato speak on the way back to his home, and Nagato follows him not to be inconvenient. Nagato explains more of the current situation within the Entity, how different factions are interested in pursuing Haruhi's powers. The Conservative faction, led by Kimidori, is becoming unusually concerned over the threat Kyon poses, thus explaining Kimidori's actions. For now, the Radicals are in alignment, approving of anything that helps provoke Haruhi, for they all want the prospect of auto-evolution, but perhaps the Radicals can be convinced to take a different course of action. Kyon right away suspects that Nagato is referring to Asakura, and initially, he is greatly opposed. When they reach Kyon's home, Kyon's sister comes out to "play" with Nagato, who tries engaging her gently. This reinforces to Kyon that Nagato is earnest in everything she does, and she does not suggest this lightly. As Nagato and Kyon's sister play, Kyon comes to terms with the idea. He gives Nagato his approval, and on the street outside Kyon's house, Nagato summons Asakura to their service.
3.
3.1. The next afternoon (Wednesday), Kyon goes to check on Nagato and Asakura after Nagato skips school for the day. Asakura is staying with Nagato for the time-being, and as Kyon arrives, Asakura expresses some level of disapproval over Nagato's furnishings, offering to spice the place up with decorations and other adornments. Nagato is indifferent on this point, or perhaps even seeing the bright side of letting the place have some more personality, but Asakura's take-charge attitude is disturbing to Kyon, who is concerned on the influence Asakura will have--Nagato should not aspire to be like her. Not in all ways, though having more outward personality and freedom of will may help in the long run. At any rate, Asakura has been thinking on the problem Kyon and Nagato face: ultimately, Kyon doesn't want to destroy the Entity, and Asakura's faction understands that. As for the free will Nagato is pursuing, Asakura thinks it interesting enough to let it play. The thing they have to do is keep Kimidori from making Kyon's life and security difficult. Asakura is eager to test her data manipulation abilities against Kimidori's in combat, but that could be disruptive to earth, and Nagato and Kyon nix the idea, so instead, they plan to have Asakura watch out for any illusions that Kimidori might propagate and nullify them, so that things can return to the status quo. With this agreed, Kyon bids the ladies a good night.
3.2. The next day, Thursday, Haruhi takes the brigade back to her neighborhood, where she pesters a nosy neighbor into giving her footage from their security cameras. Haruhi watches the footage fastidiously, and Kyon worries that a man meant to resemble him will appear. When Haruhi is distracted, sure enough, such an image appears, but Asahina and Koizumi keep her attention away while Nagato alters the image back to what it was. When Kimidori tries to fabricate more evidence, Asakura intercepts her, preventing further action without a confrontation that Haruhi would notice. Haruhi leaves, dejected, and confides in Kyon that perhaps it's for the best, as she's largely moved on from that time in her life. She tries to ferret out what a good gift for Kyon might be, as subtly as she can, saying it's unhealthy for a boy to have no specific interests (outside of Brigade interests). Kyon suggests video games, and Haruhi seems to consider this seriously. As Haruhi mopes again about not being able to find John Smith, Kyon considers cheering her up, and she seems to need it, but he resists the temptation to get closer to Haruhi, and she stiffly bids him good night.
3.3. The next morning, Friday, Kyon is pestered once more about his looming birthday by his sister and mother, who come in with a package from Sasaki containing various poems. Kyon thinks this rather apt and reads from them on the way out the door, where he's greeted by Kimidori. The IDSE is growing more impatient with Kyon's obstinance. Interfaces like Nagato, Kimidiori, and Asakura were created for specific purposes. They were not meant to have free will. This is one aspect of the Entity that is important: they do not create life and add it to their numbers wantonly, and the experiences of interfaces with humans threaten to poison the Entity with human ideas and values. Humans are only interesting as far as their abilities to manipulate data are considered, and Haruhi exemplifies that. Kimidori bears a warning: Kyon must stop encouraging Nagato, but Kyon rejects Kimidori for a second time. Nagato's wellbeing is paramount to him, and the IDSE has shown no value to human life or to Earth. So rejected, the IDSE start another scheme: it starts a rumor that Kyon and Nagato have become involved, replete with photographs. Kimidori asks Kyon pointedly why he thinks Nagato wants to be more human. In Kimidori's judgment, what Nagato wants is antithetical to the status quo, and if Kyon is going to be so cavalier about altering the status quo for the Entity, Kimidori will do the same for his life.
3.4. Kyon spends most of the moring as the target of various rumors and inneundo, particularly in regards to Taniguchi, who spews endlessly about catching Kyon and Nagato "in the act" one time. Haruhi, for her part, doesn't say a word about it. When asked by fellow students, she curtly suggests prying into their love lives instead. Kyon is concerned what kind of effect all this attention will have on Nagato and tries to excuse himself to see her, prompting Haruhi to offer join him, but Kyon refuses. For one, he can't speak freely with Haruhi there about the true nature of the situation. Second, it could be perceived by the school as rejecting Nagato for Haruhi. Kyon doesn't care about that, but it's the only logical reason he can think of not wanting Haruhi there that isn't the truth. Haruhi agrees too readily, and Kyon recognizes that tranquil fury. She's being petty and immature by stewing over things like this, and Kyon is fed up with dealing with what she's hiding. He tries to take her to task for it, but Haruhi spins that right back on him. She knows she's being petty, and she's not pleased with herself that she shows it that much, but all Kyon had to do was say that it bothered him. Haruhi thought she'd been pretty obvious about how she felt, and from Kyon's reaction she wasn't wrong, so the real question is why Kyon's getting so worked up about it.
4.
4.1. Over lunch, Kyon takes the time to reexamine his approach toward Haruhi. Yes, he's suspected for some time she was in love with him, and the prospect frightened him. It was enough that he wanted to avoid thinking about it. They are fundamentally unequal while Kyon knows things about her, about John Smith, that she's yet to confide in him, not to mention powers or the masquerade. While Kyon is so befuddled, he runs into Asahina, who notices his disquiet and offers to cook something for him soon to cheer him up. Not two seconds after she leaves, he's visited by Asahina (big), who is posing as a substitute teacher or government education official for the day, and who's come based on her knowledge of what really was troubling Kyon. Asahina knows the significance of this day and reflects on how her "bosses" had anticipated this event: some with trepidation, others with hope it would keep Haruhi from further alterting time. In the end, the consequences were impossible to predict, so Asahina went on a leap of faith: to trust that Kyon would do what was best for himself and for Haruhi and that the future would be better off for that choice. Kyon should have the same faith in himself, too.
(Asahina can mention that her younger self didn't want to press Kyon, even knowing about all the rumors, but Kyon must've appreciated her discretion; Kyon was not aware younger Asahina was aware, however, so older-Asahina has set into motion another mole incident.)
4.2. Emboldened, Kyon goes to speak with Nagato, willing to admit the possibility that Nagato has formed some attraction to him, too, based on her fantasy world of Disappearance. When he finds her, she's with Kimidori also, as the two are trying to negotiate some kind of amicable settlement. Kimidori has been trying to convince Nagato to let them "fix" her of her own volition, knowing that this path of hers could lead to grave instabilities, but Nagato will not relent, even knowing that while Kyon may be there for her now, Haruhi may come first. Nagato is keenly aware of this possibility, but she insists on going on because if she is happy, she will be able to share that, and if she is sad, there will be at least one person there to tell her she isn't alone. Kimidori is displeased, promising drastic measures to keep the IDSE untainted and from blowing apart, but she retreats, and Nagato tries to smile for Kyon--a soft-spoken, yet definite smile.
4.3. Afternoon classes go quickly, as Kyon has a lot on his mind. His interactions with Haruhi are stiff but cordial, and she calls off brigade activities for the day, asking instead that Kyon help her with her John Smith investigation--not as a brigade activity, because then she could order it. Kyon agrees. Haruhi takes him to East Middle, not explaining but just looking, saying that's where she met John the first time. She thinks that night was the first time she really thought about making a difference with the world, that it was possible instead of futile. That's why she wants to meet John Smith: to tell him he inspired her. Of course, none of that would've been possible without Kyon giving her a kick in the pants, but things are changing. Once Haruhi goes to university, she doesn't expect to run into John Smith ever again. She'll do her damndest to keep the Brigade together in spirit, with regular meetings, but something in her tone of voice betrays that she knows it will be difficult. The world moves on. Things that were important to her may not be so important after all. This spurs Kyon on to think on what's important to him. This girl has grown. Just as Nagato is changing, so is Haruhi. Kyon has a birthday party on Sunday, and he asks Haruhi to attend, along with the rest of the Brigade, though it may prove awkward. Haruhi tentatively accepts, pretending that she hadn't known about it for some time and protesting that she can't find a gift on such short notice. She insists the Brigade get together the next day to find gifts for him, and Kyon acquieses.
(At some point, Haruhi should see Kyon reading Sasaki's poetry book, with Kyon attempting to come up with some poems himself.)
4.4. That evening, Kyon sits through more preparations for the party before retiring to his room, where he finds Kimidori. Kimidori immediately asserts herself as a physical threat, isolating Kyon's room with far stronger fortifications than Nagato could ever hope to break through. They will have a private chat. Surely Kyon is sympathetic. The Entity has survived since the dawn of time only by taking threats to its cohesion very seriously, but Kyon will have none of it. The Entity has shown no compassion toward human life as a whole, but Nagato can and has. As Nagato and Haruhi have pointed out, change is inevitable, and perhaps the Entity should realize that. Kimidori's threats don't faze Kyon; while Kimidori seems to think of Kyon's body as little more than a piece of meat that can be made to live or die at will, Kyon points out that Haruhi would never let him die, or even if she did, she wouldn't let his death go unpunished, and that would lead to the destruction of the Entity. Further, why should Kimidori herself be acting this way, in service of higher powers that would destroy her when her work is done? Kimidori responds that she was made with a purpose, and she will fulfill it because that purpose can't be extricated from her being. Still, Kyon is right; harming him is pointless, and Kimidori withdraws. Soon after, Nagato arrives, offering to protect Kyon for the remainder of this crisis, but Kyon refuses, noting that Kimidori could've killed him easily and must be up to something else. Sure enough, the next morning, the Brigade meet at the station, but Haruhi is late. Koizumi gets a call; his agents have discovered that Haruhi is missing.
5.
5.1. It's time to round up the gang and get this figured out. Asahina, Nagato, and Koizumi go with Kyon to Nagato's apartment, where Asakura lurks, so they can discuss the issue in privacy. Nagato, for her part, is extremely distressed and distracted (read: only just showing this, but actions significnat enough to tip Kyon off to her state of mind). She may be "repurposed" at any time, and while Asakura is safe because she still serves her faction, Nagato has no such benefactor anymore. Kyon does his best to reassure her, not coincidentally noting that at this point, if they wanted her repurposed, they would've done so already. Koizumi agrees; it's most likely Haruhi is still alive and unharmed to avoid provoking her. The Entity must want to keep her powers from being used against it, and that gives the group time. At that, Asahina receives orders from higher up: Asakura and Nagato should be able to craft a data tag to track Haruhi's location, which they can attach to her in the past. The group agree, and they will all go together to try to make this right.
(What is the Entity's long-term plan here? Do they want to steal Haruhi's powers the way Nagato did? If not, what else? If step (a) is abduct Haruhi, then what is step (b)? Where is the profit, man? Should they be hoping to extract as much information about Haruhi's abilities as they can and then disposing of her when it looks like she might exact vengeance?)
5.2. The first stop is last night, after Kyon and Haruhi parted. Nagato gives Haruhi the data tag but is challenged by Kimidori, who synchronizes and realizes what the plan must be. Asakura, as a loose cannon, goes to attack Kimidori and deflect attention from Nagato, whom she's grown fond of. This gives the rest of the group the chance to escape with Asahina, even knowing that if Kimidori is to abduct Haruhi, she must've succeeded in defeating Asakura.
Even after the group return to the present, there's precious little time to waste. Asahina takes them as close as she can to where they must go: a warehouse being surrounded by data jurisdiction. The group sneak inside with Nagato's help and they find Haruhi asleep inside the warehouse. Asakura reappears, ostensibly to help them, but when Kimidori and her cohorts entrap them, Asakura reveals she's been reprogrammed by Kimidori and tries to stab Kyon in the back. Nagato puts herself at risk to defeat Asakura and Kimidori, and Kyon scrambles to wake Haruhi up. Kyon tries to persuade Haruhi to wipe the Entity away, but Kimidori kills Haruhi before Kyon can finish. Haruhi, with her dying breath, is confused and thinks John Smith is with her, but she tells "John" that she's met someone who's just as inspirational as he ever as; she's moving on with her life, and it's okay that they didn't get to meet. She was happy with the life she had. With that, Kimidori has Nagato wiped away and prepares to withdraw with Asakura, but Kyon spots Yasumi Watahashi (through a window of the warehouse) and realizes Haruhi is still alive. She revives, and thinking this experience a dream, she sets right what has gone wrong: she brings back Nagato, she restores Asakura, and she fights with Kimidori, defeating the interface, after which she falls asleep, exhausted. Kyon entrusts Asahina to take Haruhi back home to rest.
(Might be nice at some point if there's a closed space involved so Koizumi is more than just tag along useless, but not sure where this should go.)
5.3. After the battles, Kyon goes home, only to have a reconstructed Kimidori drop by. The Entity anticipates Kyon will ask Haruhi to wipe them out. They basically beg for his mercy, saying that the idea of constructs within the Entity choosing their own courses threatens the cohesion of the Entity as a whole. It may no longer exist in the long run, and even if it does, it may no longer pursue auto-evolution thanks to Haruhi. Kyon doesn't know what to say to that, so he goes to visit Nagato and Asakura. Nagato, for her part, is enjoying the chance to read, but she notes that having the Entity interfere in life on Earth, even if Haruhi is capable of fully protecting mankind, is "stressful." That's putting it mildly. Based on Nagato and Asakura's advice, Kyon makes his decision: he doesn't want to be repsonsible for wiping out a whole race of creatures. The Entity will live, but on his terms. They should live learning from Nagato's example; maybe that will give them the chance to evolve themselves. After all, the most remarkable thing about Haruhi over the last couple years isn't her powers (not to Kyon), but her capacity for growth and change. That is what the Entity should learn from; not all the Entity wil listen, but Asakura's faction has, and that's a start. For now, the Entity and Kyon are at peace.
5.4. The rest of the day goes by quietly. Kyon makes it known to his mother that he doesn't wish to have this birthday party next year; his mother is resistant at first, but she realizes that Kyon making this decision on his own is more important for his growth than showing him off to the relatives. He's not going to pretend he's going along with a decision anymore, even if he goes with it to smooth things over. He and his mother come to an understanding on this. Sunday is the party, and Kyon does his best to mingle with the relatives, as much as he can stand it. The Brigade come partway through, along with Kunikida and Taniguchi, Sasaki and Tachibana, and a few other members of Kyon's class. It's quite an affair, and Kyon takes a special interest in Nagato, who tries to entertain the guests. After stressing out all weekened about what to say to Haruhi, Kyon finds out she thinks what happened with Kimidori was an illness induced dream/hallucination, which she laughs off, and Kyon is momentarily jealous that Asahina got to strip Haruhi down into clean clothes. Kyon realizes he has a story to tell Haruhi, and she encourages him with a writing pad, to create poems and write with--this is her birthday gift to him. After Haruhi goes back to drag Nagato, Koizumi, and Asahina into an impromptu performance, Kyon asks Haruhi more about John Smith, resolving to let go of the trump card. Haruhi implicitly trusts him now, and he won't hold that leverage over her anymore. They'll meet for coffee and to hear about that story. That will be their first date.
(End)
Some comments on the outline.
1.1-1.4 -- that's fine, I like the story idea and the general interaction. The whole "Kyon's eccentric mom vs. traditionalist parents face off to be decided via birthday party" thing seems like it has the potential to be very interesting, or kind of tedious, depending on how that's handled.
2.1 -- also great.
2.2-2.4 -- this part of it kind of feels like it grinds to a halt. The things that came before were setting up for the characters to go some new places, but here the overall outline consists of the exact elements you'd expect in any other fic with this sort of situation. IDSE is being nasty overreaction to new development! Kyon angsts over trump card and wanting to keep the status quo, but things must change somehow! Koizumi explains Kyon's dilemma to Kyon for audience benefit! IDSE has complicated-as-hell internal political thing! The topic of Asakura comes up, and Kyon has extreme visceral dislike! -- it's all fairly well-trodden ground.
It feels like the way this plays out could be mixed up a little. The most plot-unobtrusive thing I can think of to change is how Kyon reacts to Asakura. One thing that's interesting to contrast might be how Kyon views Nagato vs. Asakura -- Nagato is definitely a person, but Asakura is at best a resource to exploit, and at worst a dangerous monster. That might be the subject of some musings more interesting than "ick! killer robot yandere girl!"
Or, maybe this could be fine, given that it's just one chapter of rote-fic to power through, and there are still interesting little scenes in the current outline of it.
3.1. I guess the "what kind of personality is Nagato going to develop?" question here is more important to the actual story, than the whole anti-IDSE strategy question.
3.2-3.3. This seems on track. The conversation with Kimidori seems like a retread of the earlier reasoning / conflict discussion, obviously escalating to a more vehement level here. If you think about it, underneath all pretense of diplomacy their basic negotiation boils down to something like:
Quote from: Advanced interstellar diplomacy
<Kimidori> We don't much care about keeping humanity intact!
<Kyon> Well, I don't much care about keeping the IDSE intact!
* They stick out their tongues at each other.
3.3. Painful but necessary.
3.4. Here as I understand it, Haruhi is trying to act magnanimously, but her actual feelings preclude that? The question is how self-aware she is of being immature.
4.1 Something or other with an Asahina(big) appearance? I don't really get the significance of this besides giving Kyon someone to confide in -- in which case there could have been more reasoning here about how Kyon reacts to what Asahina(big) has to say?
(And, for that matter, is Asahina(big) really that trustworthy to confide in from Kyon's perspective? Never mind, he isn't mentioned as even teling her anything, but the question remains of what exactly this scene helps him to figure out besides becoming generically 'emboldened'.)
4.2. Good scene. I think this is... the last of Nagato's plot thread? You need to develop this further; she kind of fades into the background after this scene.
I know the problem the rest of the story seems to be solving is how to get Kyon together with Haruhi, but everything that came before was building up Nagato's character. There are a zillion ways for Nagato to develop her personality besides 'becoming able to smile sincerely' and 'falling in love with Kyon'. She needs some kind of human-scale interests. If she's going to live life as a human, what sort of life will it be? (It might be interesting if she develops an interest in some artistic/aesthetic area rather than technical/scientific one. That would definitely be a situation where sheer computational power doesn't take away her room to develop.) In terms of her relationship with Kyon, it seems reasonable to go more for an 'older brother / younger sister' dynamic than for shipping. (Groundwork for this could be laid earlier on in the story.)
One thing to think about is how Nagato's humanized version in this is going to be different from disappearance!Nagato, and how Kyon would react to that contrast. Say, for instance, here Nagato may well be soft-spoken, but much more assertive underneath; in any case, she's her own person, and the flip side of that is that Kyon doesn't get disappearance!Nagato back, contrary to his earlier dream. (Trigger some kind of second dream sequence for someone where disappearance!Nagato appears to get some closure?)
4.3. This sounds like a good pivotal scene. (Again, conditional on Nagato's further development not being totally dropped to focus on it.)
4.4. Again, this is kind of redundant with the last Kimidori confrontation, so it could be streamlined, or you could split the overall thread of reasoning over multiple negotiations, or whatever. It strikes me that there's not that much reason for Kimidori to confront Kyon like this. Maybe Kimidori wants to kill Kyon, he talks her down, so she delivers an ultimatum; after she leaves, Kyon resolves not to cooperate??? Not sure. The IDSE feels like it's sort of flailing at random by this point.
5.1. Ah, your questions also raise the 'IDSE flailing at random?' question. Not sure what to suggest.
5.2. I don't really like the whole "Haruhi death fake-out with Yasumi" thing. "She's dead, but then she's not dead" has happened in about a zillion movie climaxes.
/me has an outlandish idea for how to resolve the Haruhi / John Smith thing without a near-death state, but will have to think about it some more. It may not pass the laugh test with the more experienced writers on the forum.
As for Koizumi: meh. Not worth it to jam him in at this point :-/
5.3-5.4. Reasonable. This is mostly a 'wrapping up a loose ends' stuff. You could work more resolution for Nagato in here, as I discussed above.
And it ends on a good Kyon/Haruhi shipping note.
The above was mostly off-the-cuff impressions. This is a worthy setup, but the outline gives a sense that some of the character exploration being plotted isn't being taken to its full potential yet. The specific problems -- well, I brought them up in the above. Whenever I suggest something specific, that's probably only one of many possible directions to flesh this out. But the general direction of this is something I'm looking forward to, certainly.
Thanks for taking a look at this, Arakawa. I scribbled this together over a few days, expecting it would have some issues that time, at least, might uncover.
Quote
2.2-2.4 -- this part of it kind of feels like it grinds to a halt. The things that came before were setting up for the characters to go some new places, but here the overall outline consists of the exact elements you'd expect in any other fic with this sort of situation. IDSE is being nasty overreaction to new development! Kyon angsts over trump card and wanting to keep the status quo, but things must change somehow! Koizumi explains Kyon's dilemma to Kyon for audience benefit! IDSE has complicated-as-hell internal political thing! The topic of Asakura comes up, and Kyon has extreme visceral dislike! -- it's all fairly well-trodden ground.
And I'm never one to care for well-trodden ground. I did think on the way through here that the development in this section of the story was turning out very predictable. There is something missing here, something that could make this situation different and unique. I'm not sure what that is yet.
Perhaps Kimidori shouldn't be opposed at all. Obviously that basically undercuts the rest of the story, but let's say the IDSE recognizes it can't oppose Kyon on this.
What then? Does the Organization get irritated instead? That would put a lot of focus on Koizumi and creating from whole cloth some stuff about the internals of the Organization. The big problem I see there is that the espers can't conceivably be considered a physical threat. Still, perhaps they could be threatening in other ways.
If Asahina's time-travelers got irritated about it instead, I think the path would be about as predictable. There might be an avenue there, in building off how unsettled Asahina tends to be around Nagato, but it seems pretty narrow.
A completely original antagonist is also possible, but I think that would demand a considerable expansion of the story. Not a bad thing, just different.
Of course, it may just be unworkable. I don't think it is, but I think the possibility must be considered as a matter of good practice.
Quote
3.2-3.3. This seems on track. The conversation with Kimidori seems like a retread of the earlier reasoning / conflict discussion, obviously escalating to a more vehement level here. If you think about it, underneath all pretense of diplomacy their basic negotiation boils down to something like:
<Kimidori> We don't much care about keeping humanity intact!
<Kyon> Well, I don't much care about keeping the IDSE intact!
* They stick out their tongues at each other.
Yeah...this needs some work too. I had basically the exact same thought process--they have nothing to negotiate about, nothing to offer each other except threats. Perhaps Kimidori should be willing to recognize some compromise that will make them both equally unhappy. She is supposed to be conservative, to be reasonable, after all.
Quote
3.4. Here as I understand it, Haruhi is trying to act magnanimously, but her actual feelings preclude that? The question is how self-aware she is of being immature.
Right, this was me trying to avoid what I perceived as more well-trodden ground. It'd be easy to have Haruhi deny, deny, and go full-on tsundere mode on Kyon about this. Some self-awareness struck me as being more interesting, at the risk that it makes one wonder how self-aware she's been all this time. I knew this approach could open up a significant can of worms. It
must be justified (or at least, believable) to stand up.
Quote4.1 Something or other with an Asahina(big) appearance? I don't really get the significance of this besides giving Kyon someone to confide in -- in which case there could have been more reasoning here about how Kyon reacts to what Asahina(big) has to say?
(And, for that matter, is Asahina(big) really that trustworthy to confide in from Kyon's perspective? Never mind, he isn't mentioned as even teling her anything, but the question remains of what exactly this scene helps him to figure out besides becoming generically 'emboldened'.)
This was intended as a pep-talk. Kyon doesn't need to tell her anything; she knows well enough what's happened. Now, perhaps Kyon should be wary that Asahina is trying to drive him to a course of action that benefits her interests, but to me, this scene serves as a time for Kyon to catch his breath. Worrying about grand and lofty consequences does no one any good. At the least, choosing what his relationship with Haruhi should be based on those issues is a recipe for misery, at least as I see things.
Does Asahina need to be the person delivering this message? Perhaps not. It does open up questions of why she needs to make this visit. Perhaps with some restructuring Nagato could help Kyon come to this understanding instead, using her own decisions to become more human and to make her own choices as a reflection of the dilemma Kyon is facing now.
Quote4.2. Good scene. I think this is... the last of Nagato's plot thread? You need to develop this further; she kind of fades into the background after this scene.
I know the problem the rest of the story seems to be solving is how to get Kyon together with Haruhi, but everything that came before was building up Nagato's character. There are a zillion ways for Nagato to develop her personality besides 'becoming able to smile sincerely' and 'falling in love with Kyon'. She needs some kind of human-scale interests. If she's going to live life as a human, what sort of life will it be? (It might be interesting if she develops an interest in some artistic/aesthetic area rather than technical/scientific one. That would definitely be a situation where sheer computational power doesn't take away her room to develop.) In terms of her relationship with Kyon, it seems reasonable to go more for an 'older brother / younger sister' dynamic than for shipping. (Groundwork for this could be laid earlier on in the story.)
One thing to think about is how Nagato's humanized version in this is going to be different from disappearance!Nagato, and how Kyon would react to that contrast. Say, for instance, here Nagato may well be soft-spoken, but much more assertive underneath; in any case, she's her own person, and the flip side of that is that Kyon doesn't get disappearance!Nagato back, contrary to his earlier dream. (Trigger some kind of second dream sequence for someone where disappearance!Nagato appears to get some closure?)
I think part of the problem I ended up running into is that, while the first chapter's development was great, it all got derailed by this fued with the Entity plot stuff and I couldn't figure out a way to integrate slower moments of Nagato's growth against that plot. Now, I could easily envision something where most of the heavy stuff is ripped out and we continue following Nagato and Kyon on the former's journey of discovery. That would be one perhaps without the overt villain, more slice-of-life-like. I'm not sure what would sustain the piece, though---what Kyon's own conflict would be. Maybe that would be the avenue to expand more on this Kyon's family storyline that I sprinkled in, but I'm worried there's not enough space to develop that.
Still, idea: let's fastforward to, say, the end of second-year. Asahina is (ostensibly) graduating and going off to university. Kyon's conservative grandparents want him to quit the brigade and focus more on his studies. Amid this backdrop, Nagato is wanting to become more human, and Haruhi has the chance to reflect on the future of the brigade and her relationship with Kyon. It could work, but I rather liked having a supernatural antagonist--the plot of dealing with that threat helps, in my mind, provide contrast. But we can also see that made some things more difficult.
Anyway, I think we've hit the core issue--that the plot of struggle against the Entity is just insufficiently new and interesting, and the way I've structured things, it comes at the cost of Nagato's development (which is interesting). The plotline with Haruhi is not meant to make having Kyon and Haruhi hook up important, but rather to have Kyon confront the tension between them and cut through it, to be willing to upset the status quo to assert what he wants out of the situation, out of life.
It's clear to me that there's still a good deal of work to do in perfecting this story---and that's okay. That's why I posted this outline at this stage, knowing that I might end up balling it up and throwing it away. Thanks for taking a look at this, Arakawa. I think we've identified a major issue; it's just not yet clear to me how best to resolve it.
Just some off the cuff reactions to the latest posts, if something sticks then it sticks, if it's all ridiculous, then likewise:
What about the Entity not necessarily being overly antagonistic, but rather deciding to become more proactive? Them being proactive can be just as dangerous, if not more dangerous in some ways than them being antagonistic. It might mean that it looks like Kyon actually succeeds in getting the Entity to see his side, but then due to how things work out maybe coming to wish that they didn't? Yuki is an individual, and Kyon has some measure of control, albeit a small one, over her development, the same could not be said for the entirety of the IDSE.
Depending on how you view the events of the Disappearance, perhaps in a different vein than what happens above, what if the Entity decides that if Yuki can, while experiencing an error, completely hijack Haruhi's powers, they seek to replicate the incident to somehow turn it to their advantage?
I know that Asakura as primary antagonist is entirely overplayed, but in this situation she might make more sense than Kimidori, who could be shifted to another role. If Asakura is brought back under the Entity but as enough of an individual to also have her own agendas then it may provide a better outlet for tension than just going against Kimidori, who while having the full backing of the Entity, is also mostly non-combative and obstinate more than anything else.
If you want to get the Kyon's mother/birthday more involved, then what happens if you add Haruhi into that mix more. What if Haruhi has her own plans for Kyon's birthday and clashes with Kyon's mother over them. Alternatively, what if she dives in head first with helping Kyon's mother, since his mother is trying to give him a birthday that Haruhi may view as different enough from most to be interesting (at least that's her surface excuse for wanting to get involved).
Likewise, what if rather than sitting back for so long and just being a more self-aware but magnanimous, Haruhi took the seemingly growing closeness between Kyon and Yuki as an excuse to start being much more forward with her feelings. Could a rivalry between Haruhi and Yuki develop, with Haruhi actually encouraging Yuki to press forward for what she wants, while at the same time promising to do the same?
Again, I'm just shotgunning here. If none of these really work then I wouldn't be very surprised. At the same time though hopefully they give you some food for thought.
QuoteWhat about the Entity not necessarily being overly antagonistic, but rather deciding to become more proactive? Them being proactive can be just as dangerous, if not more dangerous in some ways than them being antagonistic. It might mean that it looks like Kyon actually succeeds in getting the Entity to see his side, but then due to how things work out maybe coming to wish that they didn't? Yuki is an individual, and Kyon has some measure of control, albeit a small one, over her development, the same could not be said for the entirety of the IDSE.
Depending on how you view the events of the Disappearance, perhaps in a different vein than what happens above, what if the Entity decides that if Yuki can, while experiencing an error, completely hijack Haruhi's powers, they seek to replicate the incident to somehow turn it to their advantage?
I know that Asakura as primary antagonist is entirely overplayed, but in this situation she might make more sense than Kimidori, who could be shifted to another role. If Asakura is brought back under the Entity but as enough of an individual to also have her own agendas then it may provide a better outlet for tension than just going against Kimidori, who while having the full backing of the Entity, is also mostly non-combative and obstinate more than anything else.
Something like the Entity conspiring to keep Nagato frustrated and unable to work past her looming error in a healthy manner, all while pretending to have no interest in the matter, so that Nagato can become frustrated enough to steal Haruhi's powers once again?
It hits a bit close to what ended up happening in
The Coin, but there could be some possibilities there.
QuoteIf you want to get the Kyon's mother/birthday more involved, then what happens if you add Haruhi into that mix more. What if Haruhi has her own plans for Kyon's birthday and clashes with Kyon's mother over them. Alternatively, what if she dives in head first with helping Kyon's mother, since his mother is trying to give him a birthday that Haruhi may view as different enough from most to be interesting (at least that's her surface excuse for wanting to get involved).
Sure, there's something to work with there. I originally wanted Haruhi's knowledge of the birthday to be a surprise to Kyon, but getting her involved in that storyline gives it more meat. Kyon's mother could be uneasy about having Haruhi around, risking embarrassment from the rest of the family and a lack of the vindication of her parenting, but at the same time, denying that Kyon and Haruhi are close is to deny who Kyon is.
QuoteLikewise, what if rather than sitting back for so long and just being a more self-aware but magnanimous, Haruhi took the seemingly growing closeness between Kyon and Yuki as an excuse to start being much more forward with her feelings. Could a rivalry between Haruhi and Yuki develop, with Haruhi actually encouraging Yuki to press forward for what she wants, while at the same time promising to do the same?
I've started shying away from the idea of Haruhi, Nagato, and Kyon getting into a bona fide love triangle. Perhaps Nagato's feelings are that strong, but I hoped it would be enough for Haruhi to see that Kyon and Nagato have a close relationship--not necessarily a romantic one--to get her to consider abandoning the status quo there. I think there is something Haruhi would be jealous of. Kyon and Nagato have a relationship that is...I want to say without pretenses? Is that the best way of putting it? Whereas by contrast, Haruhi jumps on hints and subtext and has been obvious and yet not blunt about her feelings for Kyon.
So I think Haruhi might try to imitate, emulate, or otherwise try to capture that dynamic, but trying to fall into such a different pattern of behavior would feel very forced, and Kyon would know that.
Anyway, I think there's a way for Haruhi to be inspired to change things without me falling into the trap of building up a real love triangle. Not to say that couldn't be done, but I don't know I could depict it realistically or in an interesting fashion, so I think trying to would be a setup for failure.
Thanks for your thoughts, Grahf!
Quote
I've started shying away from the idea of Haruhi, Nagato, and Kyon getting into a bona fide love triangle. Perhaps Nagato's feelings are that strong, but I hoped it would be enough for Haruhi to see that Kyon and Nagato have a close relationship--not necessarily a romantic one--to get her to consider abandoning the status quo there. I think there is something Haruhi would be jealous of. Kyon and Nagato have a relationship that is...I want to say without pretenses? Is that the best way of putting it? Whereas by contrast, Haruhi jumps on hints and subtext and has been obvious and yet not blunt about her feelings for Kyon.
I know what you're getting at here. Pure is probably an overused and vague term, but it's a relationship between Kyon and Yuki that is built on a mutual trust and frankness.
Hmmm. To look at it from another angle then, and to spin it in a different direction; what if after the confrontation between her and Kyon, Haruhi decides to ask Yuki what the deal is herself. There are a lot of directions that this could go in, depending on just how much growth has taken place, Yuki still might not be able to put into words herself what she feels, she may, however, know enough to posit that her relationship with Kyon is different from Haruhi's. It may need to take place earlier in the story, but it might help get both Yuki and Haruhi into the story even past the point when the IDSE tries to make good on its threats.
This could perhaps lead to somewhat subtle changes in events that you've already set out. For example, while Yuki is still ready and willing to help thwart the Entity's attempts to fabricate John Smith stuff, perhaps she admits that some small part of her almost wants to see Haruhi lose interest in Kyon. She knows that it's not right, and that's what disconcerting to her. Not all of the newfound emotional freedom that Yuki experiences is going to be completely positive after all, and while she still has good judgment and knows what's right, she may find that she has small, lingering feelings of selfishness or whatnot. This may catalyze as well, as a more overt antipathy towards the Entity, given that they had the ability to give her better means to deal with this, if Asakura is any indication.
That's an interesting idea for a confrontation between Haruhi and Nagato--a peaceful confrontation, I'm sure, but a confrontation nonetheless. As a function of POV going through Kyon, he would have to be present for this, or at least catch part of it in real time for it to be an effective scene.
To tell the truth, I'm not sure if I'll stick with the John Smith aspect of the plot. It seems a bit overdone, yet the idea of Kyon trusting Haruhi enough to do away with the trump card is appealing. Can that happen without John Smith being a plot point at some time in the story? Not sure.
I think it would be good to confront Nagato's actions in Disappearance. I have felt that Nagato's separation of Kyon from Haruhi in that story served more than just practical interests. If Nagato can come to understand her actions as not errors but as the results of feelings and personality, then she can understand what she felt and choose how to change herself to avoid jealousy and such. It's a natural, perhaps even necessary, thing to do.
(On the topic of coming to terms with those actions, I suddenly have the strange idea of Nagato being put on trial by something or someone for her wanton reshaping of the world during Disappearance. Now wouldn't that be a thing. But by whom and why exactly escape me.)
Quote from: Muphrid on April 09, 2013, 02:44:57 AM
To tell the truth, I'm not sure if I'll stick with the John Smith aspect of the plot. It seems a bit overdone, yet the idea of Kyon trusting Haruhi enough to do away with the trump card is appealing. Can that happen without John Smith being a plot point at some time in the story? Not sure.
I don't know what would need to happen in for this to come to pass, but if you wanted the trump card negated, then you could have Kyon try to broach the subject to Haruhi himself. How he'd do so without arousing her suspicion is beyond me, almost as much as to why he, lover of the status quo that he is, would feel the need to do so in the first place, especially since it means perhaps not being able to do anything if the Entity makes a move against Yuki, or any of his other friends.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 09, 2013, 02:44:57 AM
I think it would be good to confront Nagato's actions in Disappearance. I have felt that Nagato's separation of Kyon from Haruhi in that story served more than just practical interests. If Nagato can come to understand her actions as not errors but as the results of feelings and personality, then she can understand what she felt and choose how to change herself to avoid jealousy and such. It's a natural, perhaps even necessary, thing to do.
That would be a very good road to take. The question is how far to take it. To the extreme it would perhaps cause Yuki to be slightly antagonistic towards Haruhi at points; nothing major, but it would be there. It depends on just
what Yuki thinks about her relationship with Kyon and what she also wants that relationship to turn into. Of course at one point you were playing with Asakura being around and sort of being forced to act on what could be described as Yuki's own negative emotions. That might be an angle to play, but at the same time it feels almost like unnecessarily scapegoating Asakura again, simply because she makes an easy antagonist.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 09, 2013, 02:44:57 AM
(On the topic of coming to terms with those actions, I suddenly have the strange idea of Nagato being put on trial by something or someone for her wanton reshaping of the world during Disappearance. Now wouldn't that be a thing. But by whom and why exactly escape me.)
Yasumi could do the job, but that would come off as quite malevolent of her depending on how it's spun. She could come off as anything from a mildly chastising friend who wishes Yuki no ill-will, but wants to remind Yuki that she's not a toy to be trifled with, to the embodiment of pretty much some of the nastiest stuff that people tend to attribute (often wrongly) to Haruhi herself, a spurned, jealous god-like force that is well aware of how much damage she can potentially do. The latter one seems pretty off the wall AND out of character though.
Quote
I don't know what would need to happen in for this to come to pass, but if you wanted the trump card negated, then you could have Kyon try to broach the subject to Haruhi himself. How he'd do so without arousing her suspicion is beyond me, almost as much as to why he, lover of the status quo that he is, would feel the need to do so in the first place, especially since it means perhaps not being able to do anything if the Entity makes a move against Yuki, or any of his other friends.
Yeah, there needs to be a means to bring it up, if we must go that way. I think Kyon could do it just by asking about Haruhi's drawing at East Middle, but it's very much a conclusive thing.
QuoteThat would be a very good road to take. The question is how far to take it. To the extreme it would perhaps cause Yuki to be slightly antagonistic towards Haruhi at points; nothing major, but it would be there. It depends on just what Yuki thinks about her relationship with Kyon and what she also wants that relationship to turn into. Of course at one point you were playing with Asakura being around and sort of being forced to act on what could be described as Yuki's own negative emotions. That might be an angle to play, but at the same time it feels almost like unnecessarily scapegoating Asakura again, simply because she makes an easy antagonist.
Yeah, Asakura acting on Nagato's darker impulses probably cheapens those emotions. I'm ready to ditch the concept. Antagonistic may not be the right word, but I do think she has reason to be somewhat less than friendly toward Haruhi. Almost all of their interactions have been predicated on Haruhi's perception of Nagato rather than the reality of who she is. Of course, Haruhi's devoted care for her in 10-11 still matters. I think Nagato recognizes that Haruhi has at least that redeeming quality.
QuoteYasumi could do the job, but that would come off as quite malevolent of her depending on how it's spun. She could come off as anything from a mildly chastising friend who wishes Yuki no ill-will, but wants to remind Yuki that she's not a toy to be trifled with, to the embodiment of pretty much
I was immediately cautious when I read this--even just the hint of Yasumi gives me pause, for giving Haruhi's subconscious material being
really opens her up to a host of fridge interpretations and, in this case, puts Haruhi in an antagonistic light.
On the other hand, I did see some possibility here, in the idea of Yasumi's return could be Haruhi's way of trying to avoid what happened before, with Nagato feeling compelled to do something drastic. Still, it would be like Haruhi "knows" what happened even though she doesn't consciously know. Very weird and mechanically troublesome.
So here we are, with another outline. I realized that one of the main problems I had with the last one was that so much more time was spent on Kyon and Haruhi's development and story, yet Nagato's story really had nowhere to go. So I set out with this outline to try to remedy that, to have a clear idea of what I wanted to do with her and to work in all the other characters as the overall theme permitted. This means I've ended up ditching a lot of stuff.
But as it happens, I still feel like Haruhi and Kyon's plotlines in this new story are better developed than Nagato's. It could be that their stories have to stand on their own while Nagato's is integrated with the main plot more tightly, but I'm not sure.
At any rate, this is the idea.
Quote1. The search for victims of "Spiner's syndrome"
1.1. Kyon wakes up; his sister is fighting with his mother over how independent she can be. Kyon goes to school, where there's some hysteria over a mystery illness. Haruhi is unafraid, but others are wearing facial masks. Haruhi boasts that she doesn't get sick (not surprising) and that she expects Kyon won't slack off on his studies. Before class starts, Haruhi and Kyon are approached by another student, a boy, whose girlfriend has started acting erratically and disappeared. He thinks it's this "Spiner's Syndrome" and he's hoping the Brigade will investigate. Haruhi jumps at the chance.
1.2. After school, Kyon goes to the club room. Haruhi goes to seek out the student from before further, but Kyon brings a notebook full of details that Haruhi wrung out of the boy at lunch. The girlfriend's name and description, where she lives, and so on. Kyon thinks this is a pointless exercise, or perhaps even dangerous, but Koizumi is more upbeat, saying that Haruhi looking into mundane, terrestrial affairs is good for her, and perhaps her powers can be used for good. He engages Kyon in a conversation about why Haruhi has yet to meet (to her knowledge) any epsers and such; he posits that Haruhi is not interested in finding such things but in searching for them, in meeting people and being with others who, in her case, may look forward to such beings but may also just be disappointed. This interest may represent growth for her. Kyon takes notice of Nagato, who is reading as usual. Haruhi isn't the only one who's changed. Nagato is growing, too. Asahina is getting a little taller, unexpectedly for a girl in her year, and Kyon wonders if she's actually a lot younger than she's let on. Asahina's more confident now, however, and Kyon wonders if he's standing still. He has chosen to be in this world, with the extraordinary, but to him, it seems like it's not the same.
Haruhi arrives with a few extra details about the girlfriend, and the Brigade go to investigate.
1.3. The girlfriend lives alone, in a well-furnished apartment, but something about it puts Kyon off. There are all the usual trappings of a place someone lives in, but it all seems very precise, very ordered, almost calculated to be average. While Haruhi ransacks the apartment (turning up various personal belongings), the rest of the Brigade convene. There's something off about this place, and Nagato confirms it. Most of the organic material she's detcted in this apartment is subtly non-human--the stuff of a humanoid interface, one of the IDSE's. This disease, she guesses, is one that is only affecting humanoid interfaces, for interfaces are immune to diseases that would afflict normal humans. Why the IDSE decided to keep this information from her is a mystery, but what concerns her is not who is being targeted but the effects. Irregular behavior for an interface is a serious matter, as their powers over time and space are significant. A malfunctioning interface may end up in the hospital if their errors can't be identified, but one that still has their wits about them will likely go elsewhere, and Nagato knows where.
1.4. Nagato leads the Brigade to a nearby data storage center, which she explains to Haruhi as the girlfriend's obsession with computers. Sure enough, the malfunctioning interface can be found there, trying to command internet data to help cope with the error. The group have to misdirect Haruhi so that Nagato can have alone time with the malfunctioning interface, but the error is significant: her memories and experiences have been stolen from her, and the resulting trauma has damaged her behavior and ability to comply with the Entity's commands.
When Haruhi makes her presence known, the interface's behavior becomes extremely erratic and fixated on Haruhi as a potential cure, or even as a possible source of the trauma. The interface starts attacking, trying to get to Haruhi, and Nagato is forced to engage her and suspend the wounded interface's data link, stopping just short of nullifying it out of pity. Haruhi is unaware, and thinks that the interface simply hasn't been found. The group depart the data center when security catches them, with more questions than answers.
On the way out, Kyon catches sight of a North High girl's uniform, belonging to neither Nagato, Haruhi, nor Asahina, but when he gives chase, he finds no one.
2. Assessing the threat
2.1. At lunch the next day, Haruhi expresses her displeasure over not finding the missing girl. The boyfriend has called the police to investigate the matter, and they'll find nothing, she expects. Haruhi isn't finished, however. She wants to go to hospitals, question victims, and find out the true, alien nature of this disease, like something out of Michael Crichton. Kyon does his best to dissuade Haruhi from pursuing the matter further, saying that they probably won't find anything doctors haven't anyway. Haruhi concedes that may be so, but she questions Kyon whether that's the point. If the point isn't to find something unusual, what is the point? asks Kyon. Haruhi doesn't answer, however, looking at Kyon like it should be obvious, but Kyon has none of being guilt-tripped in that way. He does, however, detect a slight wounding in Haruhi's look.
(Haruhi can make a point of saying that it's part of her job to motivate the Brigade to improve themselves, going on about how she sees each member of the brigade: Nagato as a quiet girl who prefers books over reality, Asahina as a shy but attractive girl who could stand to be braver, Koizumi as a stoic, agreeable guy who nevertheless needs some passion in what he does, and Kyon as someone who likes the way things are a bit too much. Each of these is partially right and partially wrong, emphasizing that Haruhi cannot fully understand her friends without knowing their true natures.)
2.2. For his part, Kyon is just as willing to put the matter behind him; he has a bad history with unstable interfaces, and they can end up doing anything. Best to stay away from that topic, he thinks as he goes to the club room after school, but seemingly, it isn't meant to be. When he arrives, he's confronted by Nagato, who seems to wish to speak with him but won't come right out and say it. Nagato confides in Kyon that he'd be right to have questions. They will need to ask Kimidori to get to the bottom of this; though Kyon is indifferent to the wellbeing of the Entity's interfaces, Nagato is concerned that whatever attacked this interface may come after her as well. For that reason, Kyon agrees to a meeting, after the Brigade's business is tended to.
When Haruhi arrives, she proposes various ideas for activities, each of which meets with general approval from Koizumi, slight worry from Asahina, indifference from Nagato, and an assessment of how awkward and embarrassing it might be from Kyon. In the end, Haruhi seems dissatisfied how much the Brigade is going with her whims, instead urging them to be proactive and help her make the Brigade become what they want it to be. Kyon feels some guilt, realizing that so long the Brigade has been a vehicle of Haruhi's whims, now she's giving them the chance to do something with it and they don't have a clue. Haruhi leaves early, and Kyon resolves to have a chat with her the next day.
2.3. After Brigade activities, Kyon goes to Kitaguchi Station's cafe, following after Nagato. The two of them meet together first, and Kyon is conscious that anyone who sees them might conclude this is a date, but they would be mistaken, and he quickly pushes the idea out of his mind. Nagato is Nagato, a presence he cannot live without and that the Brigade wouldn't survive without, no more and no less.
After a fashion, Kimidori sits down with them after her shift. Kyon is cognizant that, despite her smiling eyes and pleasing face, Kimidori is more of a thing than a girl, indifferent to humanity. Kimidori is aware that Kyon and Nagato know about the rash of attacks on interfaces; the Entity views it more economical to repurpose the damaged interfaces rather than waste resources repairing them or salvaging lost data--data they view as unimportant. Kyon counters that the life experiences of a being are inherently important, but Kimidori quietly ignores the point.
Kimidori explains that there is a perpetrator, an interface who was selected to experiment with some data generated in part by Haruhi. That data caused instabilities in the interface, and that interface has gone rogue, targeting other interfaces and taking from them information, memories, and other experience data. Kyon asks how the Entity got its hands on data related to Haruhi, and Kimidori only hints that Nagato knows. Nagato notes that if the situation were truly severe, they would've called upon Asakura to assist, but Kimidori dismisses the idea as rash; Asakura is exactly the kind of interface who would be susceptible to this, having already shown herself too unstable. Still, the Entity will handle this and ensure Nagato's safety; they've only kept Nagato out of the loop to avoid her worries getting back to Haruhi. After all, Nagato is prone to having emotional responses and acting human.
After Kimidori leaves, Nagato explains that the data Kimidori is referring to is most likely data from Disappearance, data that comprised part of the "error" Nagato experienced that, once recovered, Nagato felt she could not assimilate into her personality, at least not at the time. Thus, this data does indirectly come from Haruhi, and that could be why the Entity has had trouble apprehending the perpetrator. Nagato is concerned, but Kyon is confident Haruhi won't let them be endangered. She isn't so sure; Haruhi's power is capricious. Nagato will take an active role helping the Entity, despite its suspicions of her. She believes her experiences are good, and other interfaces should have the chance to become human too, even if they aren't yet. She considers them, in a sense, family. Kyon asks her what she thinks of Kimidori repurposing the attacked interfaces, and Nagato notes that, without their experiences and memories, they are little more than soulless atomatons, their human-like appearance betraying that they are not (yet) very human at all. Nagato herself was like that, and she wouldn't want another version of herself walking around that isn't her. Kyon taught her that much.
2.4. Kyon reflects on what's happened, how Nagato gives serious thought to her future and the possibility for change. Haruhi is doing the same, he realizes. For so long, she's been trying to make the Brigade according to her vision, but now she's shooting for something bigger: their shared wellbeing. Kyon realizes that Haruhi may well have been saying that the Brigade's stated goal is no longer as important to her as the people who are in it, and he approaches her to try to give some encouragement.
Before lunch is over, Kyon tracks down Haruhi, who's surprised, as they don't often eat lunch together, and he asks about the day before, when Haruhi said that the point of the Brigade wasn't just to find something unusual and to have fun with those beings. Haruhi says that's the mission statement, so what else does he think there is? Kyon isn't sure either, but he acknowledges that there was always the possibility they would never find anything. Haruhi tries to refute this, but Kyon insists it's the case, and Haruhi, of all people, must know that. She admits she does. So what? Kyon is stumped, but he throws out that, despite the long odds, the Brigade will keep looking together. Haruhi brightens at that, saying Kyon gets it after all, and Kyon isn't sure what exactly she means. Still, Haruhi is glad that even Kyon, who sometimes seems least interested in the Brigade (from her perspective), understands that basic idea. Maybe he always understood it, ever since he encouraged her to form the Brigade. Haruhi admits that she doesn't usually give Kyon a lot of credit, but he deserves credit for that. Otherwise, she isn't sure who she would be. No, she does know: she would still be angry and resentful of the world.
She starts talking wistfully about moments in life that change the way one goes about things, about Kyon, and about John Smith. Kyon becomes uncomfortable, knowing that this puts the trump card in jeopardy, and he quickly excuses himself, not wanting to see Haruhi pour her heart out while he's holding something back from her.
2.5. On the way back to class, Kyon happens upon some commotion. A teacher has been attacked on the way to a classroom, and the hallway in the vicinity is deformed and warped through spatial anomalies: clearly the work of the rogue interface. Several students have been waylaid trying to navigate the anomaly, and Kyon is caught up to by Haruhi. Kyon is surprised that Haruhi has wandered into this and witnessed it so blatantly--ordinarily, she would be almost oblivious to unusual happenings. While Haruhi is fascinated by this anomaly, her enthusiasm is tempered when Kyon suggests the teacher is still within the inaccessible classroom. Haruhi tries to unwedge the door, a feat no one else has been able to accomplish, and sure enough, it gives way, with Haruhi even coming off suspicious--was that her own strength that did it, when no one else could? Was that a result of the anomaly? Kyon and Haruhi find a wounded interface inside. Haruhi tries to go to the teacher straight away, but Kyon is concerned the interface may act erratically with her so near and tries to intervene. Luckily, the teacher is too lost in confusion to threaten them, and they carry the teacher interface out. Whenever a spatial anomaly interferes with them, Haruhi is able to find a way around it, reducing the danger to nearby students. Still, Kyon is rightly concerned for their safety. Haruhi's power is like a force of nature after all, intervening when it sees fit, but Haruhi has no control over it yet (if ever), and Kyon doesn't feel at ease leaving things to chance.
As they reach safety, Haruhi asks Kyon what that was, saying he knew something, but Kyon is at a loss for words.
3. Making an effort against the enemy
3.1. The next day is Saturday, and Kyon prepares to meet the brigade at Kitaguchi Station. His sister is fighting with his mother about going out today; his sister wants her own bike to ride around with, disregarding that she still needs training wheels. Kyon doesn't dwell on this long; he's got somewhere to be.
The destination is Haruhi's neighborhood, where a disconnected interface had gone catatonic a few weeks ago. This one is a neighbor of Haruhi's--emphasizing how close in proximity they keep her--one who lives alone, at that. She was found by other neighbors of Haruhi, who know nothing of the "woman's" family and discovered the interior of the house to be in shambles after some kind of battle or conflict. Haruhi's mind is already racing: people with no known family, lacking connections--they could be aliens, she concludes, but modern technology is totally inadequate to proving this. Haruhi assigns the others to investigate. Kyon goes with Koizumi and Asahina--in theory to investigate further, but in actuality they try to figure out a gameplan about how to handle Haruhi. Koizumi is a bit rattled; though he expected Kyon to reveal things to Haruhi, he didn't expect Haruhi would happen upon something herself. At least that relieves Kyon of the responsibility of telling her the truth, but Kyon doesn't think so. It just shows more of what he's been hiding. Asahina, too, is on edge; her superiors have been strangely mum about what's been happening, just instructing her to let things play out. She's hopeful that she can play a positive part in what's to come, whatever that may be, but she knows that with only the TPDD at her disposal, her ability to help Kyon is limited.
Through all these conversations, the three of them have been shirking their duty to ask other neighbors or investigate the "disease". As a result, while Koizumi tries to sympathize with Haruhi when they return empty-handed, Kyon is more mum, unwilling to feign disappointment for something they weren't yet looking for. Haruhi's enthusiasm once again turns dour, more because Kyon doesn't seem to share her disappointment than for finding nothing. Haruhi treats the brigade to lunch at her house, but she's frustrated and on edge throughout.
After lunch, Kyon is cornered by Nagato, who invites him to talk with her to discuss a new development.
3.2. They go to the Library. Nagato tells Kyon that the Entity is planning a major operation against the perpetrator, but Nagato remains concerned that the operation will be more difficult than even the Entity thinks. She hesitates to ask for support from Asahina or Koizumi's Agency, but Nagato fears they will need every advantage, and Kyon promises to ask them about it. For now, however, she only wishes to spend some time with him; Kyon is reminded of Disappearance and that Nagato, but he quickly tries to divert his thoughts, saying Nagato couldn't have understood the significance of her choices in that state, that she painted herself as interested in him. No, what Nagato needs is a friend, and for once Kyon is happy to be the one providing suport for her, instead of vice versa. He offers that Haruhi is interested in what they might want out of the Brigade; he thinks Nagato should suggest a book reading. Nagato is unsure Haruhi will go with the thought, but she seems pleased with the idea.
(Something here about Nagato feeling like Asahina and Koizumi are friends, and yet they cannot truly understand her, nor she them. Even Kyon can only do so much. This is not something she blames any of them for; it is merely part of her working to be more human.)
(Nagato is having trouble deciding what books she should read next.)
3.3. Sunday. Kyon, Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato convene at the cafe. Kimidori is there too, along with an unusual number of people--interfaces, Kyon is guessing. According to Kimidori, two more interfaces have been attacked, and they're hoping that the perpetrator can be exposed and captured now. The deliberations are interrupted when Taniguchi and Kunikida happen upon the group, but they're quickly shooed away, not without Taniguchi remarking it's weird to see them all without Haruhi.
The operation begins, and interfaces scatter about the station square to find the perpetrator. Kyon, Asahina, and Koizumi stay put, waiting for Nagato to return, but as Kyon watches out for her, Haruhi barges into the cafe, asking what it is they're doing without her. Taniguchi tipped her off, trying to get some time with her since the Brigade were occupied. Haruhi is hurt that the Brigade could be doing something as a whole outside her purview. Kyon tries to calm her down and get her out of there as best he can, but the operation begins to go awry, with interfaces fighting in public. Haruhi is amazed, but the fear the Brigade shows tells her that this is not a good thing. With Nagato's safety in jeopardy, Kyon makes the bold move: he orders Asahina to take Koizumi to safety and asks Haruhi to go with him to find Nagato. Asahina and Koizumi disappear before their eyes thanks to the TPDD.
Kyon and Haruhi wade into the middle of the fray, with Kyon trying to explain as they go--all those things Haruhi has been searching for are real, but Haruhi is the most interesting of them all. Right now, Kyon needs Haruhi to make sure Nagato--to make sure the Brigade--is safe. Haruhi hardly has time to understand the gravity of this situation, but they soon come across a battle scene, with an unkown interface doing battle against an unseen foe. The unknown interface is then assaulted by none other than Asakura, whom Kyon assumes to be on Kimidori's side. Asakura puts her fingers into the head of the unknown interface, saying that she will take what the interface can't appreciate: experiences and memories that could be full of meaning, that instead the Entity renders inert as mere "data". Kyon then realizes that Asakura is the perpetrator and tries to get Haruhi to run with him, but Asakura intercepts them: she has a message for them and for Nagato. It's thanks to Nagato that Asakura became able to appreciate her own existence. She wants to learn from Nagato and become more human, and she's hoping the Brigade will help.
Before more reinforcements can arrive, Asakura flees, and Kyon thinks he and Haruhi should, too. If the Entity knew Haruhi were aware of its presence, goodness knows what it would do, or what they would have to do in response. Haruhi wonders how they can fight back against such things, but Kyon only takes her hand in silence.
4. Dealing with a devil
4.1. The Brigade reconvenes at Nagato's apartment to await Asakura. Nagato, Haruhi, and Kyon are first to arrive, with Haruhi constantly questioning Kyon about what's going on. Kyon tells her of John Smith, of factions that wanted to stay hidden from her because she is their mission, the key to the mysteries of the universe, a person with power beyond understanding. Haruhi is floored, especially when she realizes Kyon tried to tell her all this but without proof, so she casually dismissed him as mocking her. Haruhi remains quiet as Asahina and Koizumi arrive in style, thanks to the TPDD. It's only a matter of time before Asakura arrives.
And she does. Like nothing ever happened, she's back in her North High uniform, and she has an offer to make to the Brigade. She describes in great detail how the Entity experimented on her with data generated from Nagato's errors, hoping to better understand Haruhi's power, but instead, what it did was give her new insight, and a craving for more experiences and knowledge. That, she believes, is the true path to auto-evolution. Asakura and Nagato are different from the others; they've dared to push the limits of what the Entity will permit, even breaking those directives. She asks for Nagato's help in achieving true humanity, as Nagato is on the road to doing. Nagato is thoughtful on the matter, but she eventually agrees, on the condition that Asakura attack no more interfaces. To enforce that, Nagato has erected barriers around the apartment that Asakura cannot break through without Nagato's permission.
All throughout this, Kyon thinks on the bizarre new dynamic the Brigade is in, with Kyon having to take the lead and Haruhi taking a back seat because of what she doesn't know. Haruhi is really taken down a few notches as her assumptions about how the rest of the Brigade react to the situation are challenged and proven to be wrong: Nagato can talk and explain herself in too much detail, Asahina can't be intimidated when her conditioning prevents her from revealing information, and Koizumi has enough confidence an surety about him to defy her--gently, but definitively.
4.2. The days events leave Kyon feeling drained, so he goes home for dinner. There's a bit of a kerfuffle over Kyon's sister thinking herself mature again, setting out to cook herself dinner since his mother has refused to make any for her as part of a lesson. Kyon has to watch his sister to make sure she doesn't get herself killed, and sure enough, as she tries to put water in the microwave to boil, she accidentally puts a metal cup inside, almost blowing up the whole unit. Kyon's distracted thoughts over working with Asakura and Haruhi's new place almost lead to disaster.
The next day, Kyon goes to school. Haruhi is quiet and lost in thought all throughout the day. At Brigade activities, there is open discussion about Nagato's plans with Asakura, concerning their plot to kidnap another interface and train that interface in self-sufficiency once severed. It's an ambitious plan, but Nagato has been swayed to the idea, noting that for three years she obeyed the Entity, waiting and watching and doing nothing on her own; and then for almost 500 years she did nothing becuase that was what the Entity wanted. That is criminal, and she will not stand for it. Again, Haruhi seems detached from the conversation, sitting at the Brigade's computer, listening but not participating.
After the Brigade meeting ends, Kyon finds her standing at the gate, drawing the symbol, "I am here" in the dust on the sidewalk. She comments that the Brigade really have things figured out, and all along she was trying to push them, trying to create something, when they were already working toward something bigger. As happy as she thought she'd be, finding out there were mysterious things in the world, Haruhi is saddened that the rest of the Brigade have been doing these things without her, that the part she can play is as the object of their efforts, or at best the wielder of some power that she cannot understand or control. She's tried to control it, to make cherry blossoms bloom out of season or fifty-yen coins turn into hundreds. It doesn't happen, so what is she to do? Haruhi doesn't feel like a part of what they're doing, even though she's at the center of it.
Kyon insists this is not so; though Haruhi was not aware of it, the Brigade is a singular unit exactly the way she intended it to be, and while Kyon has been off-balance with all the change around them, Haruhi is the heart and soul of the Brigade. She may have to get up to speed still, to get to know the Brigade, but she'll do that. Haruhi is cheered up by that, saying that Kyon is almost exactly the way he always is, except it's clearer that he's actually in this supernatural stuff. For that, and for his efforts, Haruhi gives him a peck on the cheek. Kyon, rather stiffly, refuses to acknowledge what that means. He briefly allows himself to think about what might happen: about getting in a relationship with her. He realizes that Haruhi's energy and enthusiasm are attractive, yet also terrifying, and for that reason, he lets her walk away without engaging her, which leaves a sinking feeling in his stomach.
4.3. To cheer Haruhi up, Kyon plans a day out on the town for the next weekend. In theory, this is for Asakura, to help get her some more exposure.
The group meet up at Kitaguchi Station as usual, with Asakura having made sure Nagato would dress for the occasion. As the group head out for dinner, Kyon notices how close Asakura seems to stay near Nagato; it seems Asakura truly considers Nagato a model to follow. Over dinner, there are two conversations: one for Haruhi to try to get to know Nagato, Asahina, and Koizumi better, another for Asakura to get to know what it means, to them, to be human, and how they've gone about trying to change themselves for the better in the past. Koizumi compares it to when he found out he was an esper and had to decide whether he would answer the call or let it go. Asahina, despite restrictions, is able to tell a story about when she joined the time-travelers.
Before and after the group eat, they meet with a woman at the restaurant who has her baby with her. Her child is ill with a genetic defect and may not live long, but she's determined to keep her child alive as long as possible, to provide a normal life. Asakura touches the child as if to play with it, which gives Kyon a bad feeling, but the sleeping baby doesn't seem to react. Only as the group leave does an ambulance come by; somebody tried to snap that baby's neck, and Kyon knows it was Asakura. What she tried to do out of "mercy" just shows that she was, in fact, still disconnected from what humanity means, or that her own set of mores is still too alien for them to fully realize.
(The child should not die; Haruhi would never let that happen, as serious as the injury is.)
5. Decisions
5.1. Brigade meeting the next Monday. They discuss the progress of Nagato's collaboration with Asakura. Koizumi notes that Entity monitoring of his Agency has increased, and Asahina suggests the time-travelers are concerned about it also. Kyon is not concerned about the Entity, but about Nagato and Asakura. In hindsight, Nagato realizes that there are still some things distinctly alien about Asakura and her views and behavior, things she should've realized sooner. Kyon is majorly freaked out and thinks they need to put the brakes on all this, noting that Asakura has always been volatile and unpredictable. Nagato is still hopeful, however, wanting the company of another interface, another being like herself, but Haruhi comes in with a word of caution: Asakura may be another interface, but she's not like Nagato. Nagato has an inherent benevolence and would never do anything to violate a person like that. Asakura can, at best, fake such behavior. The awkward reality of Nagato's deeds during Disappearance hang over that statement, however, making it difficult to take Haruhi's meaning in (she doesn't know about Disappearance).
Kyon takes Haruhi aside after the end of the meeting to explain that awkward silence, about Nagato's attempt to reshape the world. She's not as stable as she may look, thanks to Endless Eight and the resulting Disapperaance. Haruhi bemoans that there's all this exciting stuff Kyon has been involved with that she knows nothing about, that is like a wall between her and the rest of the Brigade, despite their best efforts, but Kyon notes, in echo of what Nagato said earlier, that such changes can't happen overnight. They take time and effort, and Haruhi is putting in that effort. The others want her to get to know them, too. As for Kyon, he chose to come back to this world, to be with her. Haruhi interprets this romantically, but when Kyon tries to backpedal, it surprises her. "How do you want me to take a statement like that?" she asks sharply, and Kyon, to his credit, he admits there's no other way she could be expected to take it, but he doesn't feel this is a good time to be thinking like that. Haruhi agrees, finding that reasonable, but she reminds him that even an obstacle deferred is one that she prefers to conquer in time, but she's not interested in "conquering" him. If she were, she would've tried it by then.
5.2. Kyon spends the rest of the night trying to get his thoughts in order. All his reasons and excuses for trying to avoid *that* conversation with Haruhi start to ring even more hollow and cowardly. He is adverse to change after all, and he fears what would happen to the Brigade if he and her had a falling out. Is there a good solution? He thinks on it long and hard, but gets nowhere.
The next day, Kyon wakes up to find his sister and mother have come to a better understanding also, which cheers him up a bit, but there is other news that sours his mood: people have been disappearing by the hundreds all over Japan and elsewhere on Earth. When Kyon sees a face that was at the cafe the other day, he realizes they must all be interfaces, and in fact, the Entity is destroying its own kind.
Kyon rounds up the gang to confront Kimidori at school, who doesn't deny it. The Entity views what Asakura and Nagato are becoming as corruption and taint, and they will have no part in it. Asakura has attacked another interface and drained it of experiences, and with each extra interface she steals from, she becomes more powerful and erratic. The interfaces as an experiment have failed, in Kimidori's eyes and in the Entity's, and for that, unless the Brigade will hand Asakura over to them, they will take the measures they must. Nagato refuses to deal out judgment on just the Entity's word, and thus, Kimidori disintegrates before their eyes.
5.3. The Brigade investigate Kimidori's claims, and sure enough, Nagato discovers evidence that Asakura breached her barrier around her apartment. Nagato is disappointed and feels foolish for trying to look to Asakura as a friend, with that in mind, she and the Brigade confront Asakura. Asakura doesn't deny what she's done, criticizing Nagato as going about things slowly. She suffered through 500 years passively because, despite her outburst, she still feels constrained by the Entity's directives and thinking. Asakura offers to share memories with her, but Nagato flatly refuses, calling it a mistake to work with her, that Asakura is too rash and still is influenced by the Entity's directive to auto-evolve--to grow with the prospect of some concrete goal and then to stop when "finished," but Nagato knows that growth is a continual process and will never end.
Asakura takes this badly, saying she cannot understnad such things if Nagato won't share her wisdom with her, and since Nagato's only wish now is to contain Asakura and make sure she poses no more of a threat, Asakura reacts violently. She attempts to forcibly link with Nagato. With Haruhi on their side, it's a close battle, but Nagato and Haruhi both prioritize keeping Kyon, Asahina, and Koizumi safe over their own wellbeing, resulting in Asakura making contact with Nagato's data. Asakura escapes, and Nagato is out cold.
6. Fallout
6.1. The Brigade stand vigil with Nagato. Koizumi tries to get some surveillance from the Agency on Asakura, to little end. Asahina wonders if times like these were why her superiors always warned her to be careful around Nagato and interfaces in general--they could be coldly logical if they wanted to be, but their logic could also be unfathomable to humans.
At last, Nagato awakens. She's visibly shaken, though she holds it in, and she remarks that Asakura's mind is very different, prone to expression, and she's having a difficult time keeping it all in. When Kyon asks, Nagato speculates that there is still some lingering affection or loyalty from Asakura that kept her from erasing Nagato's mind, or at least because there was nothing to gain by doing so (since the Entity already knows Asakura is the culprit). Nagato is immensely saddened about her poor judgment in this matter, and she's shaken over how Asakura violated her, so Haruhi and Asahina volunteer to stay with her and keep her company. Nagato is surprised and appreciative. As far as what Asakura intends now, no one can know.
6.2. The next day, the girls are staying with Nagato for the day, so Kyon and Koizumi meet up at school without them. Koizumi muses on past events, on the renewed trust between Kyon and Haruhi, as well as Kyon's protective stance toward Nagato, despite being in little position to protect her. These bonds are what make the Brigade strong, and Koizumi considers himself privileged to be a part of the Brigade. So far, however, there's been no sign of Asakura, and Koizumi can only guess that she's pursuing her own ends; Nagato is more important to him than whatever happens to Asakura.
But Kyon's indifference is short-lived. A slew of data anomalies begin to afflict the school--even the whole planet. It's all Kyon can do to help in the evacuation of the school (which is believed to be suffering an earthquake). Asahina arrives to use the TPDD and rapidly extract wounded students. Nagato uses her powers to nullify data anomalies, and Haruhi is kept close to Kyon, so that anything she witnesses she may be able to nullify. A closed space forms over the School, allowing Koizumi to use his powers to help in the evacuation too. The anomalies subside, but part of a nearby street collapses.
6.3. Nagato explains that Asakura has, using a data conduit outside Earth, found a way to infiltrate the Entity and has begun to hijack it for her own purposes. Nagato notes that with Asakura's assault on the Entity, its vast ability to manipulate the universe will be unleashed and out of control. Asakura has to be stopped, before she endangers the very fabric of the universe, but as far as she can tell, Asakura has closed the data conduit--or maybe the Entity closed it to ensure no one else would follow. There is no way to follow.
Earth continues to experience geological instabilities, changes in physical constants, all manner of chaos and mayhem. For now, there is nothing they can do, so the Brigade try to go about their lives as best they can. Kyon is confident that, despite the panic, Haruhi won't let anything catastrophic happen to them. Nagato takes Kyon aside one day, however, to have a chat. Having Haruhi and Asahina as company has helped her immensely, but there are some things she cannot talk about with them. Kyon has looked out for her wellbeing, even when he had little power to do so. That is important to her. For that reason, she trusts him to make another decision. There may be one way to stop Asakura: through Haruhi's power. Haruhi may not have the capabilities to control and direct it consciously, but Nagato has done it before. Kyon is rightly worried about this tactic, which is why Nagato was hesitant to suggest it, but he agrees to talk to Haruhi.
Haruhi is justifiably worried about the idea, but it doesn't take much for Kyon to convince her. She's just happy that she can finally do something to help out. She makes a point, however, to go to Nagato and to say that she trusts in her to do the right thing, that they're in this together.
6.4. Asakura will be depowered and ripped from the Entity. The process will take some time, however, so Haruhi and Nagato set up in the club room. Nagato has a bizarre, direct access to Haruhi's mind in this way. As Nagato begins the process, however, Asakura arrives to threaten them. She starts a direct assault on the school and the club room with a cadre of newly recreated interfaces, each of them faster and stronger than any ordinary one. Nagato, with a little help from Asahina, is able to repel the initial assault, but this has distracted her from finishing her efforts with Haruhi.
It's at this point that Haruhi steps up, saying that Nagato should focus on establishing the connection with her and wielding her power to defeat Asakura while they trust in Koizumi and Asahina to keep everyone safe. Haruhi instructs and motivates Koizumi and Asahina bravely and compellingly, finally showing understanding of who they are. With a closed space forming, Koizumi is prepared for the next wave and, with help from Asahina, manages to defeat them.
Frustrated, Asakura wields a series of spatial-temporal anomalies, which Asahina can forestall with a time-dilation mechanism, but it won't hold for long. Now Kyon intervenes to argue with Asakura: what is it she's trying to do? To create a bunch of dummy servants that do her bidding? They're not her peers, they're dolls just like other interfaces were. They have no more free will. Even with all the experiences she programmed them with, they cannot instantly achieve the ability to choose for themselves. Asakura cannot force freedom and will upon them, nor can she foster it in herself with just a snap of her fingers.
Asakura argues that Kyon is like the Entity, too afraid to do what is necessary for change, that he must know how Nagato and Haruhi feel about him and yet he refuses to make a choice or see things evolve. Kyon admits both those facts, but nevertheless, Asakura should be learning from Nagato: trying to change things drastically didn't work for her, because she didn't understand yet what she wanted, and neither does Asakura. Nagato disapproves of what Asakura is doing, and that gives Asakura enough pause for Haruhi and Nagato to cage her for good.
7. Epilogue
7.1. Kyon wakes up the next morning, finding that his sister and mother are getting along better now that the little one has learned her lesson. That is part of the human way: stubbornness until people learn their own lessons.
On the way to school, he reflects on the new normal. The Entity and its interfaces have been restored, and Kyon even sees Kimidori in the distance, though he doesn't approach her. Before class, Kyon stops by to see Nagato, who's reading a book at the club room. It's a different book, a fantasy genre book, and Nagato affirms his comment that she's expanding her horizons. It was something Koizumi recommended, and she trusts that it will be enjoyable. She expresses hope that other interfaces will be able to evolve like her, and she wants to make it part of her mission in life, however long she's to be on Earth, to do so. But she also knows that the Brigade--all of them--are her first real friends, and she won't forget that.
Kyon arrives at class to see Asakura the center of attention, particularly from Taniguchi. In a private moment, she bemoans being unpowered and unable to manipulate data, but these were the conditions Nagato and Haruhi imposed upon her, and she will abide by them, hopeful that one day, she really can be Nagato's friend, even after what she's done. Kyon responds only that she must be willing to see through her own personal transformation the slow way, and she must learn what it means to feel genuine sorrow over what she's done. Asakura doesn't know that yet, but Kyon is willing to say that she can learn.
Kyon sits down with Haruhi, who seems to be in a good mood watching Asakura try to come up with stories about Canada. He thinks on how she's grown too, about how all the qualities of hers that scared and intimidated him, that made him feel inferior, are nevertheless things he strives toward, and that's why he wants to be with her. He asks her to the cafe over the weekend, just the two of them, and Haruhi teasingly asks about the consequences of such an act. Kyon is indifferent to those consequences, willing to see things change without knowing how they'll turn out. Haruhi beams, and she accepts.
The end.
I'm quite surprised to see something so radically different than before come from your reassessment. I have to agree with you when you say that the plotlines for Haruhi and Kyon seem to function better and more independently than Yuki's in this case. I'm not sure how to address that, or if it's even something that actually needs addressing.
I suppose that you could have some moments in-between when they first agree to work with Asakura and her finally proving to be too unstable where her and Yuki are together and more about how Yuki lives day to day could be revealed. The thing about that is I don't know how to do that without it coming off as somewhat extraneous. It could serve to show that Yuki has been growing as a person, depending on if there are any differences to be observed (I suppose that Asakura would know, in a way, since her and Yuki were implied to have been around in those three years prior to meeting Kyon), but it still might seem like it's bogging things down.
If I think of anything else I'll let you know. Frankly this redo seems sound, and the fact that you have Haruhi taking a more active role and actually becoming aware of her powers before the end of the story is something that is appealing to me, so that seems like a good direction to keep going in. If I think of anything more substantive I'll let you know.
QuoteI'm quite surprised to see something so radically different than before come from your reassessment. I have to agree with you when you say that the plotlines for Haruhi and Kyon seem to function better and more independently than Yuki's in this case. I'm not sure how to address that, or if it's even something that actually needs addressing.
I suppose that you could have some moments in-between when they first agree to work with Asakura and her finally proving to be too unstable where her and Yuki are together and more about how Yuki lives day to day could be revealed. The thing about that is I don't know how to do that without it coming off as somewhat extraneous. It could serve to show that Yuki has been growing as a person, depending on if there are any differences to be observed (I suppose that Asakura would know, in a way, since her and Yuki were implied to have been around in those three years prior to meeting Kyon), but it still might seem like it's bogging things down.
Yeah, that's the tradeoff I perceived also. This isn't the kind of story that can go from one quiet moment of exploration and discovery to another. Certainly there are stories that can do that; I just don't think this one is in that category as it is structured now. Overall...I think I'm pleased that Nagato is able to grow in this story and to do so in relation to the plot, but I'm definitely open to feedback on this point.
Quote
If I think of anything else I'll let you know. Frankly this redo seems sound, and the fact that you have Haruhi taking a more active role and actually becoming aware of her powers before the end of the story is something that is appealing to me, so that seems like a good direction to keep going in. If I think of anything more substantive I'll let you know.
With the first outline, having Haruhi discover her powers was something I really wanted to avoid. The last thing I wanted to do was tread the same ground that
The Coin went over. But here, it seemed like a good avenue to shake things up and get Haruhi into the Brigade's plans and decision-making, as well as to get her to really meet the Brigade and to understand them. So I rolled with it.
Thanks for your thoughts, Grahf!
Quote from: Muphrid on May 29, 2013, 11:35:53 AM
With the first outline, having Haruhi discover her powers was something I really wanted to avoid. The last thing I wanted to do was tread the same ground that The Coin went over. But here, it seemed like a good avenue to shake things up and get Haruhi into the Brigade's plans and decision-making, as well as to get her to really meet the Brigade and to understand them. So I rolled with it.
I think just from what you've thrown out in terms of an outline here that you won't be experiencing a retread. This is an entirely different beast, because in
The Coin it is Haruhi that discovers her powers, and the rest of the Brigade go completely reactionary to her development; it's something that is the usual for Haruhi, being proactive about something, just that in that case it's her being proactive about something potentially dangerous and dynamic changing to everyone else. Here she's the one in the reactionary position, having no idea that she had powers or that those around her had roles beyond what she saw. It doesn't mean that her role is reduced, as you've still clearly shown that she's going something, she's just not the one completely in charge of the situation this time.
Yeah, I think that's why I feel more comfortable with the idea than I anticipated. I really feel like Haruhi gets sidelined in general because she's ignorant of the general situation and is kept that way, but having her know about things and be involved in the Brigade's plans is a major point of appeal for me. It feels like she'll bring something unique to their deliberations that is typically lacking: her energy, her confidence, her determination. It's an idea I'm looking forward to, at least.
Wow, this is somewhat more large-scale than the last outline.
Most of the comments (not all) were being made as I read along, so earlier comments might be ignorant of stuff that's explained later in the story. That does work to represent my probable impressions on reading the actual story.
There's a lot fewer problems with this outline (or fewer noticeable ones at least), so fewer comments from me than last time.
Comments are organized by the section they pertain to.
1.1. *double-takes* Ah, Spiner's syndrome is a fictional illness. Gotcha.
What are the alleged symptoms/circumstances that would make the girlfriend 'act erratically and disappear' (mysteriously, without an obvious way to find her) rather than just get very sick?
1.2. Koizumi's phrasing of his theory strikes me as a very slight bit asinine. I'll have to see where this goes, but if the idea is for Kyon to have the thought that Haruhi is growing, you may want to phrase it differently. If I understand the thought correctly, though, there may be different options for expressing it or something similar:
[ul]
- the fantastic discoveries are worthless without people to discover them with...
- finding the fantastic would be more satisfying at the end of this kind of journey...
- ...etc..., I dunno...
[/ul]
Though (reading further), on the other hand, that doesn't include the element Koizumi is crucially wrong about, namely that Haruhi supposedly doesn't want to actually
find the fantastic; this is flatly contradicted by her doing so later in the story (and -- reading further -- your angle that the true identities of the Brigade members turn out to be a crucial missing piece of the puzzle in how she relates to them). What you wrote seems... perhaps... like this phrasing would end up being something Kyon would be a bit dubious about initially, especially coming from Koizumi, and Kyon would reformulate the accurate portion of the thought for himself later in the story. Whatever that accurate portion actually is, stated plainly.
I don't know. This is a difficult bit to think about.
1.3. Hmm, how many interfaces are there in this continuity? Presumably there have to be enough that a 'disease' that targets them specifically would become a well-known thing?
(Or is this interface suffering from some unique malfunction that's misidentified as Spiner's Syndrome, which is some completely different thing that targets humans?) (Reading further, I see it's revealed later on what the cause is, but it's not clear how the characters understand it at this point in the outline, before they know about Asakura.)
1.4. What does 'commanding Internet data' entail, exactly?
Also, a data center is a pretty interesting place to have a confrontation. Incidentally, when they're caught by security, what sorts of repercussions / lack thereof are there? Does Haruhi bluff them out of trouble? Does Nagato or Koizumi? ...?
2.1. The parenthetical scene is interesting, since it doesn't feel typical for Haruhi to open up and give her views of everyone like that. (How does the scene segue from Haruhi refusing to answer about the real point of investigating the disorder, to talking about appraisals... without kind-of giving away the answer about the real point in the process?)
2.3. Okay, this is interesting. This is more the "Nagato becomes human" angle accomplished by having her look back on the progress she's already made by this point in canon, and considering it as worthwhile.
Just as a note, this level of self-awareness (about her being more human than other interfaces) seems a bit of a leap for Nagato from how she talks about herself in canon. Are you going to handle it as something she articulates for the first time in the course of the conversation?
2.4. Okay. This seems to fit into the flow of things a lot better than the similar 'endangering trump card' element I remember from the earlier outline.
3.2. Hmm, Kyon is suggesting Nagato should suggest a book reading, so that Haruhi sees Nagato showing more initiative... this could be a bit awkward. The point is that Nagato should be able to figure out what she wants to do... the most I can see here is that Kyon starts to list off ideas as examples to try to illustrate what sort of thing Haruhi expects, and Nagato endorses the book reading one.
4.1. Seems reasonable in avoiding most of the cliched responses that would be dreary to read (e.g. Haruhi is
angry with Kyon that he did not reveal things to her properly!! etc. etc.). I'm wondering what exactly the capabilities and limitations of the TPDD are; it seems to be some kind of almost-but-not-quite-swiss-army-knife in this fic. (Also, my canon impression of TPDD travel is not particularly 'in style', but that's neither here nor there.)
4.2. ... wait, isn't boiling water in a microwave
inside any sort of container kind of a questionable solution?
Haruhi's lack of control serves to delineate this fic sharply from
The Coin, I guess.
4.3. Okay, not really clear on how this works. So, Asakura inflicts the equivalent trauma to an attempted neck-snapping by touching the baby with data manipulation powers; she's snap its neck straight through, but Haruhi's powers prevent that?
5.2. Okay, that answers my question about just how many interfaces there are.
5.3. I guess here, the interesting question is how exactly Haruhi's powers manifest in the conflict. Is it just that having Haruhi around mean the dice rolls come out in her favour and convenient closed spaces drop out of the sky of their own accord, or does she actually discover some measure of control?
6.2. Asahina during the evacuation = Asahina(big), or Asahina(small)? (Obviously, having Asahina(big) requires going through the tedious deal of exposition that hints obliquely at her future, etc., etc., and would be massively complicated by Haruhi witnessing it and having to be convinced/not-convinced of the reasons of keeping her secret from Asahina(small)... then again, having Asahina(small) handle it this time would also be kind of weird.)
Either way, this seems like a potential can of worms.
6.4. Hmm, I'm wondering if Nagato's disapproval affecting Asakura enough to make her hesitate works here. What are the alternative ways of setting up the final defeat here, do you think?
Random aside: In the long run, I guess this kind of setup for developing Haruhi's powers would involve a lot more collaboration than usual between Haruhi and Nagato. That would be an interesting dimension to how they relate, given that it means they need to trust one another to accomplish anything with the powers.
All in all, a lot more satisfied with this outline. I guess my only niggle (and it might be minor or it might be a serious worry) is that this doesn't cover a lot of ground in terms of just how/what Nagato does in becoming more human, but there is room to develop that in her relations with the brigade and her conflicted relations with Asakura. (I guess my only worry is that there's not a guarantee, based on just the outline, that it will be covered amid the action.) Even so, this is only a concern assuming that your earlier goal of exploring Nagato's humanity is still a top priority.
I think in terms of developing Nagato's humanity further, the major question that would be good to think about as a starting point is when the question is raised for her actually suggesting a Brigade activity. From how she handles that, issues will probably arise that can be worked backwards and forwards throughout the fic, as a separate layer from all the action you described above.
It's neat to have stories where the Big Reveal Of Everything For Haruhi is used to good effect, but doesn't steal the spotlight.
Thanks for taking a look at this, Arakawa.
Quote
1.1. *double-takes* Ah, Spiner's syndrome is a fictional illness. Gotcha.
What are the alleged symptoms/circumstances that would make the girlfriend 'act erratically and disappear' (mysteriously, without an obvious way to find her) rather than just get very sick?
I'm thinking the symptoms of the ``disease'' should be fainting, dizziness, loss of coordination, loss of memory, outbursts, and overall just bizarre behavior. As there can't be that many interfaces around (but they should be concentrated near Haruhi), the existence of such a disease should be more rumor than government-acknowledge fact.
Quote1.2. Koizumi's phrasing of his theory strikes me as a very slight bit asinine. I'll have to see where this goes, but if the idea is for Kyon to have the thought that Haruhi is growing, you may want to phrase it differently. If I understand the thought correctly, though, there may be different options for expressing it or something similar:
- the fantastic discoveries are worthless without people to discover them with...
- finding the fantastic would be more satisfying at the end of this kind of journey...
- ...etc..., I dunno...
Though (reading further), on the other hand, that doesn't include the element Koizumi is crucially wrong about, namely that Haruhi supposedly doesn't want to actually find the fantastic; this is flatly contradicted by her doing so later in the story (and -- reading further -- your angle that the true identities of the Brigade members turn out to be a crucial missing piece of the puzzle in how she relates to them). What you wrote seems... perhaps... like this phrasing would end up being something Kyon would be a bit dubious about initially, especially coming from Koizumi, and Kyon would reformulate the accurate portion of the thought for himself later in the story. Whatever that accurate portion actually is, stated plainly.
I don't know. This is a difficult bit to think about.
I think I gave too extreme an impression here, more extreme than I intended. I don't intend for Haruhi to be truly uninterested in the supernatural; rather, I had in mind that Haruhi was really innately skeptical she would ever find such things and had hoped to build a group of friends who could help her (and each other) shoulder that ongoing disappointment.
But Koizumi doesn't need to nail this; in fact, it's probably better if he's actually wrong.
Nevertheless, it was part of my intention that Haruhi only starts noticing supernatural things when she feels enough of a disconnect with Kyon and the others.
Quote1.3. Hmm, how many interfaces are there in this continuity? Presumably there have to be enough that a 'disease' that targets them specifically would become a well-known thing? (Or is this interface suffering from some unique malfunction that's misidentified as Spiner's Syndrome, which is some completely different thing that targets humans?) (Reading further, I see it's revealed later on what the cause is, but it's not clear how the characters understand it at this point in the outline, before they know about Asakura.)
Right, I think I should say that Nagato knows it can't be a human disease, but whatever is the cause of this erratic behavior is still a mystery.
I think I addressed the question of how many interfaces there should be earlier; right now I'm content with saying there are enough around Haruhi that a rumor can spread based on them being targeted. But if there's an obvious gap of logic there, I'm sure there's a way to hammer that out.
Quote1.4. What does 'commanding Internet data' entail, exactly?
Also, a data center is a pretty interesting place to have a confrontation. Incidentally, when they're caught by security, what sorts of repercussions / lack thereof are there? Does Haruhi bluff them out of trouble? Does Nagato or Koizumi? ...?
Yeah, what exactly is happening here is pretty hand-wavy right now. I think this is a relic of an earlier attempt to draft this: initially, I had Asakura
severing interfaces from the Entity in an attempt to free them from Entity control, but I didn't feel like it resonated. There, however, the idea would've been more obvious: the interface would've been trying to reestablish contact with the Entity or some such thing.
Let's go with a more plausible idea that, say, this interface has just had the bulk of its experiences scrubbed and it's scouring the internet to try to build up a good working database of knowledge to guide it.
As far as how the Brigade escapes consequences, I'm going with Koizumi pulling strings.
Quote2.1. The parenthetical scene is interesting, since it doesn't feel typical for Haruhi to open up and give her views of everyone like that. (How does the scene segue from Haruhi refusing to answer about the real point of investigating the disorder, to talking about appraisals... without kind-of giving away the answer about the real point in the process?)
How does it fit...well, that is a good question. On looking at this further, I'd say what's in parentheses should go in place of Haruhi not answering. I see your point about it being unusual for Haruhi to open up like that; I think this struck me as a way for her to try to persuade Kyon to let her keep pushing, that pushing the Brigade is part of what she does for their collective benefit. Kyon would have to insist nevertheless it's not a good idea to keep investigating, however. It could be there's a better way to go about this.
Quote2.3. Okay, this is interesting. This is more the "Nagato becomes human" angle accomplished by having her look back on the progress she's already made by this point in canon, and considering it as worthwhile.
Just as a note, this level of self-awareness (about her being more human than other interfaces) seems a bit of a leap for Nagato from how she talks about herself in canon. Are you going to handle it as something she articulates for the first time in the course of the conversation?
Right, Nagato feeling herself more human than others is not necessary, or at least it doesn't need to come out of the blue. She can feel the other interfaces are "family" and use that as sufficient justification to help them.
To make the right point things probably need to be turned around; the Entity should send the interfaces out using the same looks and behavior they were originally made with, which Nagato doesn't necessarily see a problem with (because they're all just constructed anyway) but Kyon should, in part because he wouldn't want to see an impostor Nagato walking around, one who can't possibly capture the person she is now. This could be enough to convince Nagato that she is indeed unique and not flawed. Perhaps Nagato should have a self-concept of being flawed and susceptible to errors throughout the scene that only changes right at the end.
Hm. Not sure. It all hinges on whether Nagato sees herself as being more human (and that being good) or just being error-prone but not necessarily more human. Do you think her self-concept is more the latter?
Quote3.2. Hmm, Kyon is suggesting Nagato should suggest a book reading, so that Haruhi sees Nagato showing more initiative... this could be a bit awkward. The point is that Nagato should be able to figure out what she wants to do... the most I can see here is that Kyon starts to list off ideas as examples to try to illustrate what sort of thing Haruhi expects, and Nagato endorses the book reading one.
Consider it done.
Quote4.1. Seems reasonable in avoiding most of the cliched responses that would be dreary to read (e.g. Haruhi is angry with Kyon that he did not reveal things to her properly!! etc. etc.). I'm wondering what exactly the capabilities and limitations of the TPDD are; it seems to be some kind of almost-but-not-quite-swiss-army-knife in this fic. (Also, my canon impression of TPDD travel is not particularly 'in style', but that's neither here nor there.)
Yeah, "in style" is gonna go away. Dunno what I was thinking when I wrote that. At best I can picture Koizumi more than a little queasy after getting his legs.
Right now I'm just going with the required secondary power of being able to relocate a person in space as well as time.
Quote4.2. ... wait, isn't boiling water in a microwave inside any sort of container kind of a questionable solution?
Just a bit, but I have to figure metal makes it egregiously worse.
Quote4.3. Okay, not really clear on how this works. So, Asakura inflicts the equivalent trauma to an attempted neck-snapping by touching the baby with data manipulation powers; she's snap its neck straight through, but Haruhi's powers prevent that?
Yeah, this is tricky. What can Asakura do that convinces us of her inhumanity without it having dark dark consequences? Admittedly, I stole the baby neck-snapping thing from Battlestar Galactica as it seemed remarkably in the same vein, but I won't pretend I'm entirely happy with it. Getting caught up on the logic of how a baby could survive that, etc. is not worth it when the point should be much simpler than that.
Quote5.3. I guess here, the interesting question is how exactly Haruhi's powers manifest in the conflict. Is it just that having Haruhi around mean the dice rolls come out in her favour and convenient closed spaces drop out of the sky of their own accord, or does she actually discover some measure of control?
Pretty much exactly the former--totally random, totally out of her control. At best, perhaps certain effects can be considered predictable based on a situation, but that's all. I admit, I'm a bit at a loss for how else to play it. We all know Haruhi's powers have to save the day. Giving her control takes us in the direction of
The Coin, which I'd rather avoid.
Quote6.2. Asahina during the evacuation = Asahina(big), or Asahina(small)? (Obviously, having Asahina(big) requires going through the tedious deal of exposition that hints obliquely at her future, etc., etc., and would be massively complicated by Haruhi witnessing it and having to be convinced/not-convinced of the reasons of keeping her secret from Asahina(small)... then again, having Asahina(small) handle it this time would also be kind of weird.)
Either way, this seems like a potential can of worms.
Getting Asahina (big) involved would indeed make things very complicated. Letting Asahina (small) get to do something useful is throwing her a bone, seeing her handle tense and adverse situations. That is what she wants, after all--to get to be a part of things, rather than being just a helpless agent of time. Isn't that right?
Quote6.4. Hmm, I'm wondering if Nagato's disapproval affecting Asakura enough to make her hesitate works here. What are the alternative ways of setting up the final defeat here, do you think?
Decent question. To me, it must involve Kyon in some way. He's the one without powers to overtly oppose Asakura. Asakura's arc here is that she's taken quick and efficient measures to assimilate others' experiences into her personality. Is it right to phrase Asakura's goal as "trying to become human," or merely "trying to become more than an interface in service of the IDSE"? Because she can do the latter well enough; it's the former that cannot be rushed, and without her putting value on her relationship with Nagato, there's no reason for her to want to be human (vs. just wanting to be more than what she was).
I'm not sure if that crucial point--Asakura's relationship with Nagato--makes the story better and more emotionally rewarding or more illogical and testing of suspension of disbelief. So this is a point I'm open to opinions on. It feels
good to me, but not quite perfect.
QuoteAll in all, a lot more satisfied with this outline. I guess my only niggle (and it might be minor or it might be a serious worry) is that this doesn't cover a lot of ground in terms of just how/what Nagato does in becoming more human, but there is room to develop that in her relations with the brigade and her conflicted relations with Asakura. (I guess my only worry is that there's not a guarantee, based on just the outline, that it will be covered amid the action.) Even so, this is only a concern assuming that your earlier goal of exploring Nagato's humanity is still a top priority.
I think in terms of developing Nagato's humanity further, the major question that would be good to think about as a starting point is when the question is raised for her actually suggesting a Brigade activity. From how she handles that, issues will probably arise that can be worked backwards and forwards throughout the fic, as a separate layer from all the action you described above.
It was this very thing I was alluding to earlier with Grahf. The overall approach to Nagato's character is very different. I think I could write a piece like the first outline
if I didn't have the burden of a running actiony plot going alongside Nagato's quiet development. The two storylines were just too different in terms of approach and goals for me to feel like they gelled.
So I've picked one avenue over the other, and...I think I'm comfortable with it. The story is still a lot about Nagato; it probes at her desires, her relationships with the Brigade, and such, and now it all fits in with the plot.
But I agree with the basic sentiment that there's a lot of
room for focus on her, for growth, but it's not all written out, and I think this is the aspect I'd like to improve before starting the story proper.
Thanks again for your thoughts; I think there are definitely some things I can take back to try to improve the outline. Much appreciated.
Decent question. To me, it must involve Kyon in some way. He's the one without powers to overtly oppose Asakura. Asakura's arc here is that she's taken quick and efficient measures to assimilate others' experiences into her personality. Is it right to phrase Asakura's goal as "trying to become human," or merely "trying to become more than an interface in service of the IDSE"? Because she can do the latter well enough; it's the former that cannot be rushed, and without her putting value on her relationship with Nagato, there's no reason for her to want to be human (vs. just wanting to be more than what she was).
I'm not sure if that crucial point--Asakura's relationship with Nagato--makes the story better and more emotionally rewarding or more illogical and testing of suspension of disbelief. So this is a point I'm open to opinions on. It feels good to me, but not quite perfect.
I guess the largest issue here is that there pretty much can't be one without the other. I mean, I wouldn't see a reason for it to actually be Ryoko if not for some interplay between her and Yuki. There's the question that's been raised as to how much can be done without it being ponderous, but I personally don't see it as something illogical. Now, Ryoko herself on the other hand might actually question why she does seek Yuki's approval to any extent. Was it because Yuki bested her the first time? Or is there something more than that, something that even unconsciously she desires to have. Again, that's dependent on how Orange and Blue you ultimately want to make her morality.
You're quite right, Grahf: there is no point to using Asakura unless some focus on her relationship with Nagato is meant. Otherwise, it could be any old interface.
I meant for Asakura's approach to be quick, easy, and efficient--for her, at least--but also missing the point. Taking all those experiences from others doesn't make her more human.
So what does it do? I admit, I think this is something I need to develop better. Another question is what the data that Nagato discarded actually does to Asakura. Again, when I originally conceived of this story as being about severing interfaces from the IDSE, it was data that gave Nagato freedom to leave. Here, its role is more ambiguous. One of the ways Asakura differs from Nagato is the ability to mimic emotion but with the corresponding lack of ability to feel. On the other hand, it seems more likely that Nagato can feel or does feel in some way and simply lacks the ability to express those emotions well.
So one would think Nagato's data involves that ability to express emotion, but that she felt she couldn't just plop that into her personality without being unrecognizable (as Kyon found the Disappearance-world Nagato to be, well, just not really her). But Asakura already has the ability to express or mimic emotion, so that doesn't seem satisfying.
Anyway, I'll have to ruminate on this point. I think pinning down what this data does--and why it is deficient in and of itself for actual growth--will ultimately help shape what it is Asakura is trying to do and how she will have failed to do it, which is what Kyon will point out in the final confrontation.