Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

There is a debut trailer for Thief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4H-DGMM1tc). I look forward to the game, as that series is still my favorite.  However, I would like to lay out a small list of modern game design concepts which I feel is inappropriate to the Thief franchise, the application of which I believe will instantly turn the game into a steaming pile of burrick.

These concepts include:

• Sandbox setting.  As discussed in my Deadly Shadows review (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,100241.0.html), sandbox gameplay didn't really work out well.  It doesn't fit the standard Thief gameplay of "you have a goal, go to it, also steal everything along the way". It is better for Thief to have more focused level design.
• In-mission loading screens, in-mission cutscenes.  Anything that breaks gameplay immersion.  Immersion is really important for getting in the Thief mindset.  Chopping a level into parts with non-interaction in between is not cool. However, I'd like cutscenes for mission briefings back. Those were great.
• Dumb, pointless achievements/trophies. I thought Deus Ex: Human Revolution's popup for "you completed a level with stealth" was kind of condescending as a Deus Ex player. Getting it for playing Thief would be nothing less than a slap in the face.  Thief traditionally has interesting, real challenges worth attaching trophies to.
• Morality meters. Dichotomous morality as a theme. Let Garrett be his own character, and let the player choose his own actions. Stilted morality plays don't mesh with the series feel.
• Co-op play. Do not put it in Thief or I will moss you in your sleep.

Also, it'd be cool if we could get a good level editor right out of the gate this time.

Did you mean to put this into the game discussion forum?

I meant it more as an appreciation (followed by massive complaining) than for actual discussion about the game, but if you think it's more appropriate for the gaming board, please move the post. Sorry about that.

Massive complaining is kind of one of the things we're all about.

I think what would be better than the removal of trophies/achieves (a controversial move, I expect), the option to disable them showing up on your screen.  But that would be better in general than just in one specific game.  That being said, the trophies/achieves in DE:HR only showed up one time per mission, and then, well, you had them.

They also gave you a similar notice that you were getting bonus EXP for pulling it off, though.

That being said, I somewhat disagree with the message you share there, though for what I consider a good reason: If you're trying to pull off a 'no one has seen me, ever' run, knowing when you've blown it is really useful, as that lets you know that you need to start over.  If I remember correctly, classically Thief would let you check your status in-mission and monitor that.

DE:HR and Dishonored both give you no feedback until the end of the mission, which (I mentioned in my Dishonored review) can span as many as six different loading-screen separated areas.  So not knowing for certain if you were sneaky and knocked that guy out before he went, "Oh, no!  The dude about to knock me out is right there, knocking me out!" or if you were spotted just before you tagged the loading-screen-triggering-door-to-the-next-area....

Of course, you also comment that you'd like to see no loading screens in a mission.  I agree with that in theory, but in practice, it mandates shorter levels -- their size is generally a technical limitation, not a design limitation.

I'm starting to think that Sandbox, by and large, has been overplayed and badly done enough that people are starting to move away from it.  This is unfortunate in some regards, but in others, well, they weren't getting it right most of the time, so for now, probably it's just as well.

Morality in video games can be handled well or poorly, but unfortunately is traditionally handled poorly.  I wouldn't mind a good implementation, but it's been a while since we've seen one.  I do like the idea of letting player choice change the ending, but having that be as simple as 'actions have consequences' is entirely doable without using a morality meter.

Finally, hate for co-op?  ;_;  Why?

Well, it's done with Unreal.  I guess Unreal Editor would work?

Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2013, 03:08:13 PMI think what would be better than the removal of trophies/achieves (a controversial move, I expect), the option to disable them showing up on your screen.

I'm not against the idea of having trophies/achievements as much as the more general idea of having those things for events which no player really should be proud of. For example, in DMC Devil May Cry, you get an achievement for receiving your new weapons, even though those are unavoidable plot events. 

Now in the original Thief: the Dark Project, probably the closest equivalent would be on level five ("Assassins") where you first pick up the lockpicks. That event simply has you standing in a black market store with the picks already bought and in your inventory along with a readable note on how to use them. That's it. When you take one step in any direction, an arrows flies into the room and kills the seller, your existing mission objectives instantly fail, and you go off to solve the mystery of who wanted you dead and then inflict hardcore vengeance.

Now imagine that there's an achievement/trophy for getting the lockpicks. What exactly would that add to this experience?  You don't need a trophy for that.  You don't need it even for beating the level (by robbing Ramirez blind).  But if, say, you not only robbed Ramirez blind without him detecting you but also locked him into his basement money room and logjammed the corridor outside with the unconscious bodies of his entire mansion guard staff, I could see that being worth a trophy.

QuoteThat being said, I somewhat disagree with the message you share there, though for what I consider a good reason: If you're trying to pull off a 'no one has seen me, ever' run, knowing when you've blown it is really useful, as that lets you know that you need to start over.  If I remember correctly, classically Thief would let you check your status in-mission and monitor that.

You could do that. I support it. Though if you wanted to mandate a full ghost run rather than making it optional (a possibility for higher difficulties), you can just fail the mission when you get seen. I think I remember some fanmissions with that requirement.

QuoteOf course, you also comment that you'd like to see no loading screens in a mission.  I agree with that in theory, but in practice, it mandates shorter levels -- their size is generally a technical limitation, not a design limitation.

It's both. Technical requirements are born from designs, after all. You'll have to make design sacrifices to fit inside technical limits, but I'd rather have levels with short, focused gameplay that aren't super-pretty, over beautiful long-winded setpiece levels broken up with loads.  That's just my preference for Thief games.

QuoteI'm starting to think that Sandbox, by and large, has been overplayed and badly done enough that people are starting to move away from it.  This is unfortunate in some regards, but in others, well, they weren't getting it right most of the time, so for now, probably it's just as well.

My problem with Thief's sandbox, as done in Deadly Shadows, is that I've always felt Thief levels had a somewhat tight purpose holding together the "freedom to choose how to approach the task" business.  Garrett knew what he's there to do, even as the player chooses how he does it.  When you transition to sandbox, suddenly the player has to decide what he's there to do, which sounds a whole lot better than it is in practice because that decision tends to collapse into maximizing the amount of stuff you steal from the sandbox.  I'm not sure if I'm describing this well, but for Thief games, maximizing the amount of stuff you steal isn't the point; you're there for some other, primary purpose like grabbing a unique treasure or finding specific information, and even though you do steal everything else, doing so is actually more proof that you've fully explored a unique level than an activity of its own value, especially since you can't keep the money across multiple missions.  In Deadly Shadows, fully robbing the sandbox feels like a rote activity, there to allow you to pointlessly hoard money.  Though that was also because the sandbox environment was so small and static,

QuoteMorality in video games can be handled well or poorly, but unfortunately is traditionally handled poorly.  I wouldn't mind a good implementation, but it's been a while since we've seen one.  I do like the idea of letting player choice change the ending, but having that be as simple as 'actions have consequences' is entirely doable without using a morality meter.

Thief's implementation of the theme of choice-and-consequence has typically been mostly a part of its story narrative, and endings have been mostly "not up to choice".  There have always been the twin themes of prophecy and Garrett-being-horribly-screwed-by-the-prophecy.  That conflicts with any attempt to make a player choice mechanic, which I think is fine because that's consistent with the Garrett's snide character, the oppressive setting, and all the other elements that make the story fit together.  Gameplay-wise, there have been some attempts at player choice (for example, steal a widow's treasure, and find a hitman outside your door in the next level).  They've mostly fell flat for me.  I'd rather have uncompromised cohesion with the theme than extra player choice for the sake of choice.  As with the sandbox, choice is kind of overrated.

QuoteFinally, hate for co-op?  ;_;  Why?

As with my complaint on IRC some weeks ago, I've noticed a concerning trend of existing survival horror franchises like Dead Space, F.E.A.R., and Resident Evil suddenly having co-op grafted onto them.  It strikes me as bizarre for survival horror to have that mechanic since it really changes the fear dynamic when you have someone watching your back, and the Thief series definitely has a secondary survival horror aspect.  Co-op works well when the franchise is designed around it, like Left 4 Dead, but Thief was designed around the loner Garrett.  The existing elements don't seem to click with the concept.

Gameplay-wise it's hard to imagine what kind of changes would be need to be brought to the Thief experience to accommodate co-op. It's a pretty common situation in a Thief game to sit in one spot in the shadows just watching the world do its thing, for even ten minutes at a time... not exactly gripping teamplay.  You could make the game more action-oriented, but that's kinda not how Thief rolls.

To be fair, I don't play much co-op, so this is just my thought experiment.  There's been some attempts in the Thief community to try that concept with modding, but I don't know how they've worked out.

Quote from: Dracos on April 02, 2013, 04:16:49 PM
Well, it's done with Unreal.  I guess Unreal Editor would work?

Would it? I've never seen Unreal Editor, and I only have a shallow understanding of Dromed, the original Thief editor (mostly assorted complaints about how hard it was to use picked up from forums). It'd be nice to edit levels in the PS4 version, as is possible InFamous 2.

There is a developer interview (http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/28agom/thief-rebirth-interview) available. I have a few thoughts on it, though I apologize that my quoting is chopped up and not completely accurate because the fellow has an accent and rambles a bit.

QuoteFrom the beginning, it's really not a question of how many polygons more we can push or textures or sound [...] it's really about the experience we want to give you as a player, but we need to bring you into our universe; the immersion will be just amazing.

Emphasis on immersive experience over pure technical quality?  Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.  I'm on board with this.  Having played quite a lot of the old Thief games even into the modern graphics era, I would even go as far as saying that poorer graphics makes it somewhat easier to suspend disbelief.  I am much more interested in having top-notch voice acting than even middle-of-the-line graphics.

Unfortunately, it seems that Stephen Russell won't reprise his role as Garrett.  I think that'll hurt a bit, but on the other hand, I think if the current VA gives a similar enough delivery (and the one in the trailer seems close enough) then I can look past it.

QuoteWe are kind of Medieval Victorian, we are about to be in the Industrial period [...] You have this conflict, there is this City, ruled by the Baron, the guy trying to control everything.  There is this charismatic leader, [name I can't make out], trying to speaking to the population, trying to start the revolution, because according to him it cannot continue like that.

That sounds fine, but it makes me worried: will there be a supernatural element?  The supernatural element of Thief is the foundation upon the original Hammer versus Pagan conflict in the first Thief, as well as the basis for most of the horror in the series.  Thief 2 removed a significant amount of supernatural, replacing it with something along the lines of cybernetic body-horror, which I don't think filled the void.  I don't want to lose the supernatural angle here, and miss the next Haunted Cathedral or Shalebridge Cradle.

QuoteSo if you want to follow the story, there is the classic missions [...] but between each mission, you come back in your hideout, and your hideout is in the city. [...] We divided the city in different districts, [...] and these districts are open [...] so we are going to have sidequests to do.  [...] You will also see an evolution.  After each mission [...] the city will be alive and following your story.

AAAAAAHHH.  That sure sounds like sandbox, and I was disappointed last time with this talk of using the City as a hub between missions, with the City changing to reflect your actions.  That's been done, and it's not as it good as it looks on paper.

In addition to what I said in the previous post about the sandbox, the problem with a changing hub location is that there is probably no way to carry it far enough to feel real.  If we look at fairly recent games, in my case Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Assassin's Creed 3 (I haven't played Dishonored, so I don't know if that's a better parallel), what gamedevs do to evoke change in an existing map mostly involves cheap shortcuts.

One shortcut is to keep the map exactly as it is, but change the NPCs.  You know how this works, and you might think, well, this is something that happens in real life.  People come and go.  That's true, but in video games it fails to provide verisimilitude because it draws attention to how static the game world is, even where it shouldn't be.  In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, you can attack some gang members in an apartment building the starting city, Detroit.  When you come back to Detroit later, the gang isn't there anymore, but apparently their furniture is still exactly the same, no police have taped off the area, the other gang hasn't expanded into the abandoned turf, and the neighbors aren't reacting to their absence.  In Assassin's Creed 3, the difference between a city controlled by the British and the same city after you've stabbed the Americans to domination seems to be that the patrolling guards have been palette-swapped from red to blue--especially galling when the game's historical notes often talk about how the British occupation involved pulling down buildings for wood, which is not at all represented in the game.  In Thief: Deadly Shadows, you can seriously rob the same house for treasure every single night, knocking out the same guard every time, and at no point I can remember does anybody seriously try to fortify the place or leave an ambush.  It doesn't follow even a cursory chain of cause and effect.

Another change-depicting shortcut is to hamhandedly control access to map sections.  The game cordons off a section of the map depending on story progression, letting you into sections that corresponding to the time position you're supposed to be in and cutting you from those you're not.  In Human Revolution, they just put down a wall in the middle of the street in front of Sarif HQ to represent the change that there is supposed to be a huge protest going on around the Sarif HQ building (shown in cutscene).  Assassin's Creed 3 kept the Valley Forge region of the frontier behind a wall of not-in-this-memory until the story's year progresses to a point in the Revolution that fits with the army camp found in that region.  Thief... well, Dark Shadows fences off the City's regions but that wasn't as much about depicting change to the City as it was plain controlling game progression. In all cases, the static parts of the sandbox are where you can can go freely, while the time-dependent parts are denied until the right time.  You can call it a depiction of change, but it feels so blatantly artificial it pulls me out of the experience.  Showing change should involve some first-hand experience of before-and-after, and this technique forbids you from experiencing one of them.  You might as well sweep it under the rug and focus on something else.

Now I won't say I can't understand why these shortcuts are necessary from a production perspective (see this timely blog post by Shamus Young (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=19311#more-19311)), but they are so contrary to the Thief experience as found in the Looking Glass Studio games, with really not that much gain in return, that I wonder if developers should just let it go.  You don't need to show change to the city using a hub location and sandbox gameplay.  The original Thief games reused maps all the time, and it didn't feel all that bad, because there you at least have the rationale that "this part of the map is fenced off because your objective isn't in that direction" instead of "this part of the map is fenced off because the devs don't want to reveal it".  To get the right feel of change, you have to balance what you change and what you keep the same, so that a comparison can be made.  The usual shortcuts don't hit that balance for me.

It may be that the developers are thinking about using the Assassin's Creed 3 homestead model, where compartmentalized changes to a map spring into existence.  That may work (assuming the changes happen between missions instead of right in front of you after you do a sidequest like AC3), but if that's the plan, I hope they carry it out pervasively enough that it doesn't seem forced and gimmicky.

Quote from: KLSymph on April 02, 2013, 05:08:57 PMI'm not against the idea of having trophies/achievements as much as the more general idea of having those things for events which no player really should be proud of. For example, in DMC Devil May Cry, you get an achievement for receiving your new weapons, even though those are unavoidable plot events.

It's been said before, but evidently it bears repeating; that sort of achieve isn't actually intended for the player to enjoy and appreciate.  It's there so that the developer/producer can look at stats and say, "X people have the 'you ran our game' achieve, so we can extrapolate from there how many of our users got that far.  We also see that 'level/stage completion achieves' drop off toward the end; this informs us that around 30% of our content is enjoyed only by around 10% of our players." and so on.

Some achieves are there for you to show off and brag, certainly.  But a good number are just there for tracking purposes.

Quote from: KLSymph on April 02, 2013, 05:08:57 PM

QuoteFinally, hate for co-op?  ;_;  Why?

As with my complaint on IRC some weeks ago, I've noticed a concerning trend of existing survival horror franchises like Dead Space, F.E.A.R., and Resident Evil suddenly having co-op grafted onto them.  It strikes me as bizarre for survival horror to have that mechanic since it really changes the fear dynamic when you have someone watching your back, and the Thief series definitely has a secondary survival horror aspect.  Co-op works well when the franchise is designed around it, like Left 4 Dead, but Thief was designed around the loner Garrett.  The existing elements don't seem to click with the concept.

I really didn't catch a survival horror vibe from Thief game I played.  When I got to the one level in the first game that made me give up in disgust (no, seriously ... hordes and hordes of superdurable undead that you can't sneak around very well?  What exactly is 'thief'like about this?) I felt more like, 'poorly implimented game about killing monsters forced into what had started out an interesting stealth game'.

I watched a friend finish the third game, though.  That didn't seem too bad, though there were a lot of questions that I didn't know the answer to, like the mechanical eye and the talking gem.

Quote from: Brian on April 05, 2013, 02:30:06 PMIt's been said before, but evidently it bears repeating; that sort of achieve isn't actually intended for the player to enjoy and appreciate.  It's there so that the developer/producer can look at stats and say, "X people have the 'you ran our game' achieve, so we can extrapolate from there how many of our users got that far.  We also see that 'level/stage completion achieves' drop off toward the end; this informs us that around 30% of our content is enjoyed only by around 10% of our players." and so on.

I don't follow game development deeply enough to judge the usefulness and necessity of that for developers. My opinion as an end-user is that A) it's presented to the end-user as a thing to enjoy and appreciate even if it's not, B) it's still annoying for an end-user even if developers have a good reason for it and aren't there less annoying ways to get that information, and C) two out of four weapon achievements in DMC are in the second level so what's the point.

QuoteI really didn't catch a survival horror vibe from Thief game I played.  When I got to the one level in the first game that made me give up in disgust (no, seriously ... hordes and hordes of superdurable undead that you can't sneak around very well?  What exactly is 'thief'like about this?) I felt more like, 'poorly implimented game about killing monsters forced into what had started out an interesting stealth game'.

Sounds like Down in the Bonehoard or Haunted Cathedral.  While hordes of superdurable undead you can't sneak around easily doesn't sound too thief-ish, it's harder to say they don't sound pretty survival-horror. I can understand that some people are turned off, as that was reportedly why so much of the supernatural element was removed from Thief 2.  On the other hand, after getting used to it, I'd say that Thief is richer for having undead, because the human enemies quickly grow to be contemptible in their familiarity, and having this separate class of enemy adds variety in what kind of missions can be made.  Stealing from the dead has resonance, just as stealing from the rich, from the church, from other thieves, and so forth.

It can make you feel frustratedly helpless, I'll admit.  If you find it more frustrating than scary, I can't really speak to that, but I was more scared than frustrated.  But then again, when I played Thief the first time I was too scared to move for five minutes because of one searching (human) guard on the first level.

Regarding the impact of co-op, even if we leave aside the survival horror aspect, I think doing co-op will slide the gameplay rather sharply toward action, away from the series's slower, more methodical roots.  I don't think I can even imagine a multiplayer implementation of the existing core gameplay that wouldn't throw out the feel of the previous games, and in that case you might as well start with a new IP.  Which is fine, really.

QuoteI watched a friend finish the third game, though.  That didn't seem too bad, though there were a lot of questions that I didn't know the answer to, like the mechanical eye and the talking gem.

Well, from my second complaint post you won't be surprised to hear those depend on the supernatural elements in the first game.  Not sure if you'll care that I spoil a fifteen-year-old game, but I can say that the mechanical eye and the talking gem are the SAME THING (*scary noises*) and only be sort of lying.

The third game was not bad, but it had a lot of tradeoffs which I didn't agree with, so I can't help but look down on it a bit.

A preview editorial on a Thief tech demo. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/previews/10272-Thief-Preview-Will-it-Steal-Our-Hearts?utm_source=latest&utm_medium=index_carousel&utm_campaign=all)

QuoteThe titular thief, Garrett, is a master at making away with items that are not his, and as the developers explained, the player is meant to feel powerful and skilled, rather than some newbie learning the ropes. To this end, Garrett has been equipped with some impressive abilities, including being able to peek around corners or objects without being spotted,

Not sure what's so impressive about it. I don't remember 1998 all that clearly, but I recall with astonishing vividness that Garrett was able to peek around corners even on my computer with less than 128 MB of RAM.  In fact, it was rather impressive how Garrett could wrap most of his body around a corner and grab something on the other side and still not be seen.

Quoteand slow down hand-to-hand combat in order to pick specific parts of your enemy's body to target.

This is something a Thief demo shouldn't brag about.  It's like I'm being sold on a lockpicking feature for a SoulCalibur game.  Why would you even put that in?  For all that is sacred in Thief, I just hope it's not a quick-time event.

QuoteThus far, only a few of the game's weapons have been shown off - including the beloved blackjack club and a compound bow.

I'm somewhat curious if having an obviously artificial compound bow rather than a primitive shortbow means you can now hold a draw forever.

QuoteYou may have bested many a stealth game in the past, but rest assured that Thief won't be a simple walk in the park. As I learned straight from the developers that showed us the game, the artificial intelligence in Thief is something that is only possible on next-gen hardware. Whereas in past games, a soldier might react in an "if, then" manner - for example, if a glass breaks, then walk towards the sound - your enemies in Thief won't be so predictable. Say you snuff out a lantern and attract the attention of a guard. At first, the enemy may simply mumble to himself that it must have been the wind, but should you do it again, the chances of the guard growing suspicious heightens. Do it a third time and he may launch an all-out sweep of the area, and each time is different.

This doesn't sound like next-gen technology. It sounds like last-last-last-gen technology, since back in 1998, you had to do action (usually jumping up and down on a noisy floor) more than once to attract a guard's attention.  Also, attracting a guard's attention by doing something suspicious multiple times is still if-then behavior.

QuoteEach guard also has a specific amount of expertise which will determine how they react to certain situations. A rookie may ignore a few more strange happenings than an experienced guard would, and if you cross paths with a particularly adept individual, you'll be given very little margin of error. This varied difficulty is designed to not only be more realistic, but also achieves the added bonus of creating more organic, original experiences for each player.

One day, instead of "we have classes of enemies with different behavior sets", I hope I'll hear "we have specific guards who have individual personalities, and behavior based on those personalities". So we have a rookie guard who's had only some basic training with a sword, so he's always stationed with a veteran guard, and while the vet fights defensively and holds the gate (because that's more important than chasing down every intruder), the rookie always run for help from another post before coming back to engage.  Or maybe this one guard, let's call him Benny, always comes to work totally drunk.  So the captain stripped him of the uniform and put him somewhere outside the wall, but if a thief comes by and thinks the drunkard singing to himself won't care when the thief tries to scale the wall, Benny suddenly shows his hobo powers and starts drunk-punching the thief out of nowhere.

That needs a lot more focused level design, but it's something already doable with existing Thief AI.  If you're trying to sell "organic, original experiences" it sells it a bit better than talk about adjusting paranoia levels between classes of enemies.  You might as well try to brag about "tougher enemies have more HP" for all the good that does.

QuoteReplacing the "gem" notification icon of previous Thief titles is a small orb that appears in the corner of the screen. The sphere appears bright when you are exposed and goes dark when you are hidden, but that's not the only mechanic in place; a dark shroud appears in the corners of the screen when you are creeping in the shadows to give you a visual cue without requiring you to look at a specific corner of the screen.

Fixing what ain't broke.  What's so bad about the light gem?  I liked the gem; it did its job rather elegantly by glowing bright when you're brightly lit to going dark when you're in the shade.  It's right there in the bottom-middle of the screen, symbolizing the central importance of the light mechanic in the Thief series.  It's easy to look for and to look at, giving you the information you need with a glance.  It also, more subtly, shows that Garrett's only really abnormal ability is his power to disappear into shadow in a way that other people can't, due to his Keeper training--the gem demonstrates that this power is really a part of him.  If you go a little meta, you can find Thief fanmissions where you play as someone other than Garrett, who must sneak but don't have the light gem.  If you don't play fanmissions, play System Shock 2, which was built using the same engine as Thief 1 and also has stealth in shadows, but again without the gem.  The added uncertainty makes sneaking quite different even if rest of the mechanics are very similar.

Conversely, I'd be happy if they got rid of the health indicator.  I think that Thief would benefit from the standard modern "screen goes red at the edges, then fades after you hide in a corner for a while" injury mechanic. That would be better for immersion than the existing method, a line of shields or crystal icons along the bottom of the screen.

QuoteThings like rain and fire are also more realistic than ever, and in a short tech demo that Eidos showed us to demonstrate this, a rainstorm poured down over the city. But this was no ordinary rain filter or overlay like you might see in most games - we were told that each individual raindrop was being rendered separately, and reacted independently when coming into contact with the terrain.

I played Assassin's Creed 3 with all its hype about day/night and realistic weather systems, and I have to say all that did was make visibility obnoxious to adjust to, while not appreciably making the gameplay interesting (deep snow in particular just made running slower, hooray).  If all that realistic rain also opens up new sneaking opportunities (for example, the guards are less sensitive to footfalls because of all the rain noise and new tactics become feasible because of it), I would certainly support it.  Otherwise, it's probably not worth the resources to make it happen.

I am impressed by your conviction in your ideals in game design.

I've got nothing else constructive to contribute, sorry; you have debated me to a standstill.

Hopefully they at least make the game reasonably moddable, or otherwise allow players to create custom missions.

*glances briefly up*

There seems to be some discussion on Existing things.

The existing thief engine doesn't exist anymore, except maybe on some moldy backup drive somewhere in europe.  It's being done with Unreal and anything nonstandard in unreal is something that team is making themselves.  There's not some inherited AI or guard or jewel system that's being applied.

Quote from: Brian on April 08, 2013, 03:50:51 PMI am impressed by your conviction in your ideals in game design.

It's not so much conviction about game design as it is me liking Thief and me liking to complain. It's pretty easy for me to tell other people they're doing it wrong based on my finely-honed hindsight powers.

QuoteI've got nothing else constructive to contribute, sorry; you have debated me to a standstill.

When you say that, I feel I should hide because Rezantis is coming to mock me.

QuoteHopefully they at least make the game reasonably moddable, or otherwise allow players to create custom missions.

Would be awesome. I used to think about making a Thief mission, before I picked up writing fanfiction as more my speed. Never managed to make Dromed work.

Quote from: Dracos on April 08, 2013, 05:15:32 PMThe existing thief engine doesn't exist anymore, except maybe on some moldy backup drive somewhere in europe.  It's being done with Unreal and anything nonstandard in unreal is something that team is making themselves.  There's not some inherited AI or guard or jewel system that's being applied.

Fair enough. My statement, as always, is strictly from an end-user perspective, in the sense that something exists in my user-familiarity because it's already been done in the series, not that it exists in any concrete, practical sense such as in actual code.  I believe it would be easy to create in Unreal what was done in the Dark Engine, and I believe this with the certainty you always find in people who don't know what they're talking about.

Dracos says that previous Thief mechanics don't necessarily exist in the new engine.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/26/4269912/thief-reboot-impeded-by-office-politics-high-level-departures (http://www.polygon.com/2013/4/26/4269912/thief-reboot-impeded-by-office-politics-high-level-departures)

QuoteThe current version of Thief barely resembles the initial concept, says a source. The vertical slice doesn't load inside Thief's current heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3. Many programming tricks were necessary to run the current demonstration, like turning off non-playable character AI — the engine has trouble when too many characters are on screen.

It turns out that currently developed Thief mechanics also don't necessarily exist in the new engine.

Dracos was more right than I thought.

Now I'm sad.

Some thoughts on Thief's E3 gameplay demo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdNzCNl5Q), assuming that this is real and the development hell news I mentioned previous was all a horrible dream:

I got nothing to say about Eagle Vision.  I mean Focus. That mechanic continues to not especially appeal to me, especially since slap-a-filter-on-the-screen mechanics give me headaches.  Why can't one of these things make the color palette brighter instead of more faded and monochrome?  Well, okay, it's so that object highlighting will have more contrast.  But why can't I find a version that doesn't make the game more ugly?

I do like the slide.  That seems like the kind of new mechanic that opens up gameplay and level design options. Certainly more than the last one, Deadly Shadows's hug-the-wall mechanic.  The slide animation is kind of abrupt when done from a standstill or creeping walk, though. I think you should need to have a running start, to avoid Garrett becoming Mega Man.

Now that I've seen the darkened screen edge as a replacement for the light gem indicator of being hidden, it doesn't seem to fit well for me.  It seems that the screen edge creeps in when you change from running to sneaking, but blinks out if you're suddenly exposed to light.  This... yeah, I'm okay with this.  It's not the most elegant way to handle it, but I can see it being useful.  But while I can probably get used to the visual effect, this particular one suggests "tunnel vision" to me, as if when my character is hidden he's focusing on the bright portion and away from peripheral vision.  This conflicts with Thief's traditional gameplay, where being hidden is when the player is safe to take a breath, look around carefully, and think about what to do next.  It's when you're exposed that you want to focus on dealing with what's in front of you and then get out of the light as quickly as possible.  This mechanic inverts that association.

I'm not a huge fan of the Deus Ex: Human Revolutions-style takedown where the camera goes third-person for a cinematic shot and then brings you back to first person.  It's appropriate when you're a cybernetically enhanced brawler doing cool executions, but that's not what Thief is really about.  I don't think a guy who needs the hand dexterity to pick locks should go around punching guards in the face.

I'm neutral about the Assassin's Creed-style giant inventory ring.  Certainly I've used it in Assassin's Creed and Deus Ex: HR where it's been fine, and I won't say that the traditional Thief inventory selection wheel where you have to manually dial through the item list is tons better. However, the old inventory wheel (which were small icons on the corners of the screen) didn't interrupt gameplay the same way, and more readily gives the sense that you're digging through your pockets.  I can't tell from the video, but I hope that the new inventory popup doesn't pause the game while you're in there.  You haven't lived until you've found yourself elbow-deep in inventory while being attacked in melee.

There is a lot more on-screen popups than before.  While old Thief had new-objective popups and captions, this one has popups everywhere.  Tutorial stuff, context button cues, loot values, EXP, object captions, the auto-save icon, the area name, guard alertness indicator... it makes the main part of the screen very cluttered sometimes.  This is another "for gameplay" mechanic that sacrifices immersion for accessibility.  I won't judge the game poorly for having them, but hopefully most of those popups can be turned off in the options.

Wait, why does Thief have an EXP mechanic?  This better not be a prelude to Garrett leveling up.

I want to say some good things, but being a basic gameplay demo, there's not a lot of wow factor in this video.  The level looks decent, and I do appreciate the verticality point since I mentioned in my Deadly Shadows review that I like use of vertical space in Thief games.

My impression is that they're probably going to make it as DE:HR-like as possible.

That seems to be the way things go these days; studio finds successful formula, sticks with it.

While I was never big on thief, because it had what I felt were some issues (most notably, how guards always knew that your footsteps were the sounds a criminal makes when you go through crowded city streets and the undead-not-thiefy-bits), it had an interesting story.  Watched a friend beat the last game, played some of the first.

Felt like I got most of the story from that.

That being said, if they do make the Thief reboot very DE:HR-like, I'd buy it.

If you're looking for a game with visual filters that add to it, try Batman: Arkham City or Asylum (which were both enjoyable, IMO).  There, the detective mode is really nice; objects are blue, points of interest are various bright colors.  Pretty well one.

Quote from: Brian on June 13, 2013, 04:31:11 PMMy impression is that they're probably going to make it as DE:HR-like as possible. That seems to be the way things go these days; studio finds successful formula, sticks with it.

Then clearly that EXP is going to buy Garrett some Praxis kits.

Quote from: BrianWhile I was never big on thief, because it had what I felt were some issues (most notably, how guards always knew that your footsteps were the sounds a criminal makes when you go through crowded city streets

Oh yes. Fun fact: multiple guards can randomly walk around on metal grating near an industrial boiler so loud you can barely hear their footfalls over the noise, but if you make the slightest clink on the same grating, they will all hear it and somehow identify it as not one of their own.  Over the years I've become far more paranoid about high ambient noise than I am about bright light.

Quote from: BrianThat being said, if they do make the Thief reboot very DE:HR-like, I'd buy it.

What if they put in some HR-style boss fights?

QuoteIf you're looking for a game with visual filters that add to it, try Batman: Arkham City or Asylum (which were both enjoyable, IMO).

Hmm. I must look into that.

Quote from: KLSymph on June 13, 2013, 07:05:34 PMWhat if they put in some HR-style boss fights?

I didn't love those fights, but only the first one bothered me significantly (the gimmick was very difficult).  However, two things to keep in mind:

A.) the fights were outsourced to another studio.

B.) they admitted it was bad design, so are unlikely to make that particular mistake again (edit: Their DLC introduced a new boss, and gave you options to get around it without killing it).

Well, I rest easy knowing that there's no news of Thief dev troubles that may cause the company to outsource work or make sloppy design decisions.

*whimpers*

Alright. Game just came out. What do you think KL? Have you had a chance to try it yet?

The current metascore for the game is kind of a bad sign. Sorry for the necro post but I didn't see another thread on this anywhere.

RANT MODE ON

To add my two cents to this discussion, I would say that it seems like the devs for the current Thief game have pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the series. Yep, nothing like a bland medieval city with an evil baron and some boring looking cult moving in the background while the populous rises up against the baron's oppression. Ho hum...generic genericness of genericocity. This sort of storytelling isn't exactly terrible...but it sure isn't that good either.

It pushes no boundaries, and doesn't even TRY to bring back any of the elements we loved from the first games, but hey, the eternal loner Garrett now gets a bloodthirsty apprentice that he drops to her death so he can angst about her for most of the game so that's neat, right? /sarcasm

Oh and words fail me about Garrett. How could they have gotten his character so wrong? It's like they said, "Hey, old Garrett was boring, so lets make him a thrill seeking master thief now who steals for the sheer joy of taking stuff." That could work I guess, but it's really a bastardization of his character and I shudder at the "reluctant hero" bits.

Garrett is NOT a hero. He did what he did in the first two games because it was a matter of survival and because certain people crossed him. He was a cynical, money-driven professional who always tried to get the job done with a minimal amount of mess, because that was how he liked to roll. I don't even LIKE this concept for the new version of him. It seems like teen fantasy Garrett, though as I haven't played the game yet and can only go by the various trailers and gameplay videos I've seen, I will admit that I could be mistaken.

Who trained him anyway? If all of the old factions in this alternate universe are gone, then there are no Keepers and if there are no Keepers, then Garrett would likely have starved to death on the streets as a child. They took what he was and refined it until his skills were arguably greater then their own. A Garrett without the Keepers is kind of like Luke Skywalker without Obi-Wan. Have fun on the moisture farm Luke, cause you aint ever leaving.

Storytelling aside, the gameplay mechanics look decent enough. Scripted takedowns look amusing and the climbing mechanic looks useful...but I'm pretty sure that's context sensitive so you can't climb all over stuff and I've heard not good things about the level design. Oh, and the game looks too bright. Maybe I'm just way too used to how dark the first game was. And no more jumping for Garrett. Now it's all about the slide.

Also, some people have complained that the arrows in his bow no longer obey the laws of gravity and just shoot in a straight line without falling. I don't know whether this is true, but if it is it makes me wonder what in the name of hell is wrong with a game development studio that they can't get that right in a THIEF game. Why does a game from 1998 have more realistic physics then a game from 2014? That shit be whack, yo.

Other people were also complaining about how your shots are context sensitive. Apparently the game wont allow you to waste arrows shooting at nothing, so...more hand holding. Woot?

From all of the reviews I've read and from everything I've seen, this version of Thief appears to be a watered down, dumbed down experience by and large and it makes me think that no one on the dev team actually played the first two games. Maybe someone just handed them a brief synopsis of what they were about and said, "Here. Do with this what you will."

I will try and muster some bit of positiveness from this perversion of one of the great things from my childhood...that line they show at the end of all the trailers. "What's yours is mine." Yeah, that's neat.

RANT MODE OFF

Quote from: Kaldrak on March 01, 2014, 09:44:00 PMAlright. Game just came out. What do you think KL? Have you had a chance to try it yet?

Not yet.  And with the reviews that have come out, I don't know if I want to buy it or if I just want to watch a Let's Play of it.  The whole thing sounds like it follows Deadly Shadows and not the first two games, design-wise.

QuoteTo add my two cents to this discussion, I would say that it seems like the devs for the current Thief game have pretty much ripped the heart and soul out of the series. Yep, nothing like a bland medieval city with an evil baron and some boring looking cult moving in the background while the populous rises up against the baron's oppression. Ho hum...generic genericness of genericocity. This sort of storytelling isn't exactly terrible...but it sure isn't that good either.

To be fair, that's not much different from the other games.  I don't love Thief for the incredibly original storylines, but rather the immersion.  I just need vaguely competent storytelling to justify the levels I play.

QuoteIt pushes no boundaries, and doesn't even TRY to bring back any of the elements we loved from the first games, but hey, the eternal loner Garrett now gets a bloodthirsty apprentice that he drops to her death so he can angst about her for most of the game so that's neat, right? /sarcasm

I honestly can't even imagine how Garrett would interact with a girl, given his known personality.

*remembers Viktoria relationship*

That sure adds nothing.

QuoteStorytelling aside, the gameplay mechanics look decent enough. Scripted takedowns look amusing and the climbing mechanic looks useful...but I'm pretty sure that's context sensitive so you can't climb all over stuff and I've heard not good things about the level design.

Yeah, I've heard some bad stuff about the level design.  Especially the loading screens and level sizes.  Sigh.  Also, it's kinda linear, and uses too many one-way doors.  I didn't think I'd ever see a Thief game accused of having too many one-way doors.

QuoteAnd no more jumping for Garrett. Now it's all about the slide.

I imagined that the slide would be a strategic maneuver that was highly visible and risky, but would let you exploit a momentary lapse in an enemy's line of sight to dart to a different position.  When I first read a review that said the slide was basically a horizontal-only version of Dishonored's Blink, and saw a video where Garrett slid by two guards in mid-light conditions without being seen, I nearly coughed blood.

QuoteOther people were also complaining about how your shots are context sensitive. Apparently the game wont allow you to waste arrows shooting at nothing, so...more hand holding. Woot?

Ha ha ha, such an abomination can't possibly exist, Builder be praised.  It would be like restricting leaning to only context-sensitive surfaces.  It would be like naming your heavy-set fence character Basso instead of Cutty.

QuoteFrom all of the reviews I've read and from everything I've seen, this version of Thief appears to be a watered down, dumbed down experience by and large and it makes me think that no one on the dev team actually played the first two games. Maybe someone just handed them a brief synopsis of what they were about and said, "Here. Do with this what you will."

I think it's less about that and more about Thief not ever being possible to deliver on consoles.  If this game comes with a level editor for PC and the community starts making fanmissions, I'll probably get the game, otherwise I'll probably buy it used or when the price comes down.

I watched an LP of the prologue, and the LPer spend a few minutes trying to figure out why he couldn't shoot during the water arrow tutorial, so I can confirm that the bow is indeed context-sensitive.

So much of what I hear about the game makes me ask, "How did you even come up with an idea that terrible?"

Edit: Watched some more of the prologue, and the water arrows can also be shot without context.  Don't know if it was a tutorial thing.

Quote from: Shamus Young(http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/images/thief2014_bug6.jpg)

Issue: This is what lightning looks like in the game. It just cranks up the brightness for a split second. In the real world, lightning comes from the sky and stuff like buildings cast stark shadows. This would be a minor problem in any other game, but Thief is all about using shadows to hide. I kept positioning myself in what I thought would be shadows, only to have the magical wall-penetrating light illuminate me in front of the guards. (link (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=22383))

That is just wow.

But hey, as long as this game doesn't reach the level of my personal worst encountered Thief-franchise bug, I can still spend some money on it, eventually.


[/spoiler]

As long as it's better than that.

It's nice to find a fellow Thief fan. ^_^

Though I have to admit, you're making me not want to try Deadly Shadows. I've had the game on steam for a while, but I haven't tried it yet.

I read your review page on it. Is it even worth playing?

One of the main things I remember that killed me on more then one occasion in the original was the fact that if you were trying to climb on a rope arrow and said rope was too close to the wall, then you couldn't simply grab it, oh no. You had to jump on it and half the time you did that there was an invisible force field around the rope which repelled you away from it instead of letting you grab hold.

This was annoying and inconvenient, but sometimes much worse, oh say, like in the end of The Lost City mission (the actual one, not the one that ends when you find the haunted cathedral) where I was trying to climb up that ridiculously high tower to grab the fire talisman. I crept out onto this tiny ledge, shot a rope arrow a good twenty feet above me into an even smaller section of wood at the top of the tower and tried to jump onto/climb the rope. Garrett's terrified shriek rang in my ears as we fell to our death hundreds of feet bellow after being bounced off the rope like someone had applied Portal 2's blue goop on it and we'd taken a full running start before slamming our face into it at max speed.

One of my more memorable Thief deaths. I think my hands were actually shaking at the time.

Quote from: Kaldrak on March 03, 2014, 10:04:29 PMIt's nice to find a fellow Thief fan. ^_^

Likewise!

QuoteThough I have to admit, you're making me not want to try Deadly Shadows. I've had the game on steam for a while, but I haven't tried it yet. I read your review page on it. Is it even worth playing?

It is worth playing on its own merits, yes.  Some parts of it are weirdly changed from T1/Gold/2, but it is still Thief, and you should play it at least once.

QuoteOne of the main things I remember that killed me on more then one occasion in the original was the fact that if you were trying to climb on a rope arrow and said rope was too close to the wall, then you couldn't simply grab it, oh no. You had to jump on it and half the time you did that there was an invisible force field around the rope which repelled you away from it instead of letting you grab hold.

Ah, Thief rope physics.  Luckily, you don't have to worry about ropes in Deadly Shadows, where they took those out and gave you climbing claws.

QuoteThis was annoying and inconvenient, but sometimes much worse, oh say, like in the end of The Lost City mission (the actual one, not the one that ends when you find the haunted cathedral)

That's the Haunted Cathedral mission (and the Return to the Cathedral mission).  The Lost City comes after finding the cathedral. </pedantic>

Quotewhere I was trying to climb up that ridiculously high tower to grab the fire talisman. I crept out onto this tiny ledge, shot a rope arrow a good twenty feet above me into an even smaller section of wood at the top of the tower and tried to jump onto/climb the rope. Garrett's terrified shriek rang in my ears as we fell to our death hundreds of feet bellow after being bounced off the rope like someone had applied Portal 2's blue goop on it and we'd taken a full running start before slamming our face into it at max speed.

Well, you'll love the climbing claws.  Not only will you not bounce off a wall while using them, you can't even jump away from the wall either.  I remember trying to jump from a wall in the Pagans' territory after climbing up through a hole in a ceiling, trying to get onto the ceiling-now-floor once I'm up there... and Garrett just refused to stick or mantle onto the edge, so he kept falling straight through the hole over and over.

QuoteOne of my more memorable Thief deaths. I think my hands were actually shaking at the time.

Ha, Thief verticality.

*lines up a ladder-to-platform jump in the Horn of Quintus chamber*

*jumping perpendicularly from the ladder goes too far*

"Nooooooooo...." *splat*

You just don't get much of that anymore with all the invisible walls and handholding of modern games.  To this day I am strangely proud of becoming able to consistently get on Thief ladders from the top without falling to my death.  None of that "press a context-sensitive button to get on a ladder" nonsense.  You walk onto that ladder and if you did it with the wrong speed, or angle, or the engine hates you, you suddenly have an intimate relationship with the ground ten meters below, and an equally intimate relationship with the quickload key.  I'm pretty sure I'm better with Thief ladders than I am with real ones.

My most memorable Thief-classic death shall always be on the Return to the Cathedral broken stairs, from Sudden Heart Attack Syndrome.  If you know what that is, you know how horrible it feels happening to you.

Thief was one of my favorite games. Stealthy games are my single favorite genre, personally. It makes me sad inside to hear bad things about the new one. Hopefully there'll be a community mod pack or something that'll fix most of it.

On a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

*checks TTLG level editor forum*

Nope, still no news about a T4 level editor.

Sigh.

Oh look, they're still doing the Dark Mod.  Too bad I never cared about Doom 3...

Wait, the Dark Mod is standalone now?

And free.

!!!

Somebody download this (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142513), play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

Quote from: KLSymph on March 04, 2014, 01:41:33 PMThat's the Haunted Cathedral mission (and the Return to the Cathedral mission).  The Lost City comes after finding the cathedral. </pedantic>

Yes but I could have sworn that they named that mission "The Lost City" in the non Thief Gold version of the game. I could easily be mistaken as it's been years since I've played it.

QuoteHa, Thief verticality.

*lines up a ladder-to-platform jump in the Horn of Quintus chamber*

*jumping perpendicularly from the ladder goes too far*

"Nooooooooo...." *splat*

Oh man...that brings back so many memories. Beating The Bonehoard mission was one of the crowning achievements of my childhood. This game here was the game that started me on my eternal quest to eradicate the Undead. It was the first survival horror game I ever played, before I even knew what the genre WAS, let alone what it was called.

QuoteYou just don't get much of that anymore with all the invisible walls and handholding of modern games.  To this day I am strangely proud of becoming able to consistently get on Thief ladders from the top without falling to my death.  None of that "press a context-sensitive button to get on a ladder" nonsense.  You walk onto that ladder and if you did it with the wrong speed, or angle, or the engine hates you, you suddenly have an intimate relationship with the ground ten meters below, and an equally intimate relationship with the quickload key.  I'm pretty sure I'm better with Thief ladders than I am with real ones.

I agree with you about the handholding. So much. So freaking much. It's at the point where it just feels like my intelligence is being insulted every time I start up a new game. Press 'X' to interact with stuff. Oh really? I thought I'd just slam my face into the controller a few times and see what happens. >_<

QuoteMy most memorable Thief-classic death shall always be on the Return to the Cathedral broken stairs, from Sudden Heart Attack Syndrome.  If you know what that is, you know how horrible it feels happening to you.

I think I know what you're talking about. *shudders*

Quote from: KLSymph on March 04, 2014, 03:20:01 PMSomebody download this (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142513), play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

Done. I'll let you know what I think.

Quote from: KLSymph on March 04, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
*checks TTLG level editor forum*

Nope, still no news about a T4 level editor.

Sigh.

Oh look, they're still doing the Dark Mod.  Too bad I never cared about Doom 3...

Wait, the Dark Mod is standalone now?

And free.

!!!

Somebody download this (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142513), play, and tell me if I should buy a new laptop for it!

It's an unreal game.  I'd think that'd make it more moddable, but honestly, don't know.

Quote from: Iron Dragoon on March 04, 2014, 03:08:41 PMOn a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

Yeah, seriously.  Why the eyeliner?  Does Garrett want to emphasize his eyelashes?  I can barely accept the new mask-over-the-mouth based on the logic of staying unidentifiable when you're seen, but then you put on that stuff.

Quote from: KaldrakYes but I could have sworn that they named that mission "The Lost City" in the non Thief Gold version of the game.

The Lost City is the place and the level with all the lava and fire elementals.  The "lost city" with the hammer cathedral is the sealed section of the Old Quarter.  It's certainly a lost part of the city, but not named that.  Hooray for abstract naming.  You're lucky you get "the Hammers" instead of "the Priests" (compare "the Pagans").

QuoteI agree with you about the handholding. So much. So freaking much. It's at the point where it just feels like my intelligence is being insulted every time I start up a new game. Press 'X' to interact with stuff. Oh really? I thought I'd just slam my face into the controller a few times and see what happens. >_<

The biggest problem I have with the handholding is that it takes away from having a selection of solid core mechanics which you can exploit to make inventive solutions, and replaces that with a more limited set of actions the developer thinks of and codes directly into the game.  For a very cinematic game, that would be fine, but a game like Thief benefits more from mechanical interactions.  For example, if you make jumping completely context-dependent, how can the player indulge in the sublime art of crate-stacking?

Quote from: Kaldrak on March 01, 2014, 09:44:00 PMAlso, some people have complained that the arrows in his bow no longer obey the laws of gravity and just shoot in a straight line without falling. I don't know whether this is true, but if it is it makes me wonder what in the name of hell is wrong with a game development studio that they can't get that right in a THIEF game. Why does a game from 1998 have more realistic physics then a game from 2014?

Looking back on this point, I am far more offended that they went even farther than Deadly Shadows and have Garrett hold the bow horizontally.  In T1/T2, Garret holds his bow vertically, as if he's a person who's ever used a regular bow.  In T3, he held it in a weird 45-degree angle.  In T4, he goes a full five-degrees from horizontal.  Given the humongous deflex (bow curvature towards the user) already built into the new bow shape, he'd be able to draw like three inches from rest holding it that way.  It's so dumb.

Quote from: KLSymph on March 05, 2014, 03:18:51 PM

Quote from: Iron Dragoon on March 04, 2014, 03:08:41 PMOn a different note: http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/689/689345.jpg

Yeah, seriously.  Why the eyeliner?  Does Garrett want to emphasize his eyelashes?  I can barely accept the new mask-over-the-mouth based on the logic of staying unidentifiable when you're seen, but then you put on that stuff.

Eh, like I said. Teen Fantasy Garrett. I suppose we should be glad no one added sparkles to his character design....

QuoteLooking back on this point, I am far more offended that they went even farther than Deadly Shadows and have Garrett hold the bow horizontally.  In T1/T2, Garret holds his bow vertically, as if he's a person who's ever used a regular bow.  In T3, he held it in a weird 45-degree angle.  In T4, he goes a full five-degrees from horizontal.  Given the humongous deflex (bow curvature towards the user) already built into the new bow shape, he'd be able to draw like three inches from rest holding it that way.  It's so dumb.

Bow physics have been a pet peeve of mine since I originally played Thief. Actually, having had archery lessons in the past, I have a pretty good idea of how one draws and fires a bow properly. The best I can manage to do is force myself to actively ignore bow and arrow physics in most games....

For example, the latest Tomb Raider (sorry Drac).

Insta-arrows that hit their targets almost as fast if not just as fast as bullets that defy gravity and having the character holding the bow horizontally are regular occurrences. Not only do you not get enough force for a shot worth beans that way, but if they'd kept Lara's original bust size she wouldn't have been able to use it properly at all. Think about how an archer holds a bow and draws the bowstring back against their body, now try to imagine what happens to a busty woman if they attempt to use it that way.

*ouch*

I appreciate it when game devs take the time to implement these things in a manner that doesn't hurt my willing suspension of disbelief every time I use the weapon, though I suppose most gamers would be like 'eh, who cares'? You can sacrifice accuracy for ease of playability, but I LIKE the challenge of accurately aiming a bow that has arrows that will fall short of their targets if they're far enough away. Bows are not guns and should not be an easy replacement for them. The way the latest Thief game treats Garrett's bow feels like utter contempt for the players and the game itself though it's probably not intentional.

Coolness over realism is fine for a particular type of spectacle-based, cinematic experience.  It's just that Thief has never been that kind of experience, and attempts to force Thief--a franchise about staying in the dark and avoiding notice if possible--into that type feels weird.

If you want a sideways bow with non-arching arrow flight so bad, why not have Garrett steal Corvo's crossbow?