Print Page - [American Magic] Lost Twins (short-chapter version)

This is a project I've been working on for quite a while (see this older thread (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102526.0.html) for some context), about a magician who works at the New York Subway Lost Property Office, and her naive apprentice. 'Lost Twins' is a ~~fairly~~ moderately short fic that introduces the characters and tells of how they met. If this turns out to work, I have ideas for other stories which should hopefully be more straightforward to write.

Primary Characters in This Story

Simon Molloy - a seventeen-year-old financial services intern (long story) who took the job thinking that he would see a glimpse of some kind of hidden world of financial affairs, but instead found people engaged in the fairly boring and meaningless pursuit of money. Going home on the subway one evening, he picks up a strange notebook dropped by a mysterious old man and tries to return it to the lost and found, plunging himself straight into the middle of a sinister and inscrutable plot operating in New York's magical underworld.
Drake Powell - a magician who apparently possesses the secret of eternal youth; dubiously claims to be the 'best magician in North America', actual evidence for the claim is... inconclusive, given that she holds a largely menial job as head of the Hazardous Materials Division in the New York Subway's Lost Property Office. 'Hazardous Materials', of course, is largely code for magical artefacts that are sometimes dropped on the trains, and cause an entire headache of their own to deal with.

My primary source of uncertainty this time around is how to divide the chapters; for now, I will be posting short sections of around ~6,000 words that I hope to glom together into three large chapters once the fic is done. (Thus the sections are numbered 1a, 1b, 1c and so forth....)

Chapters So Far

Prologue - an inscrutable old man (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102788.msg1044221.html#msg1044221)
Chapter 1a - a lost notebook (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102788.msg1044223.html#msg1044223)
Chapter 1b - a nameless genie (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102788.msg1044701.html#msg1044701) (version 2)
Chapter 1c - an intimidating warehouse (TODO)
Chapter 1d - a very large troll (TODO)

This is my initial version of the prologue for the story. (People who have been following the earlier process will note that I made many earlier versions, but this is the first one I'm actually satisfied with. The dynamics of the encounter between these characters have been changed significantly.)

Edit: minor tweaks (not enough to bother marking a separate new version). Tweaked a bit of magician's reaction and added some window dressing describing what the old man notices in his eyes.

And this is the first part of what will be Chapter 1. One interesting question is whether this section works sufficiently well to hook people in to the story; if not, then events might be taking a little too long to develop, regardless of whether I put an actual chapter break here or later.

Edit: minor tweaks, including:

tentatively added a header quote from 'Chomei at Toyama (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poem/9369)'. Not sure how well it'll fit, and I have a bunch of other possible quotes to use, but this is the one that satisfies me most at the moment.
based on JonBob's feedback, added a paragraph lampshading Simon's lack of a 'freak out' reaction, and why it doesn't make particular sense to him

Hooray, we have content!

Prologue and chapter one:

Spoiler: Show

Overall impressions:

Plot and structure: I think you were right to be concerned about the structure and breaking up of this chapter. There isn't really a "wham, you're in a world with magic" type of moment, especially the way it's constructed. I can think of a few alternatives, but I won't say they're clearly superior; rather, they just go about things differently. For instance, I can imagine starting with Simon on the train, picking up the notebook, and the notebook is somehow removed from him yet magically ends up back in his pocket. That strikes me as a short, quick scene that would rapidly establish that something supernatural is afoot without giving away as much as you do.

On the other hand, such an approach would lose something you have now: an immediate sense of the depth of the world and how magic permeates it.

You could consider instead stopping right after Simon finds the notebook back in his pocket. I think for that, Powell would need to have a different attitude, perhaps as part of trying to convince Simon of the otherworldliness of this happening. She could tell him he must be trying to pull some prank on her, that he must not be Simon Molloy and is just trying to have this object passed around through the LPO to get money into someone's hands, etc. The only other explanation would be something supernatural going on, and no one would believe that unless the notebook just happens to go back to Simon's pocket. That could be the moment it all finally clicks for Simon. Then the train ride could be the start of the next chapter, just showing how deep the rabbit hole goes, so to speak.

The piece does feel a bit slow. We're what, 10000 words in, and we have no idea what this notebook is all about? Slow starts aren't a crime; just concerned that people are gonna wonder why they should continue reading the piece. There's a sense of magic being commonplace and everywhere, which doesn't lend itself to wonder and awe. There's no hint of the threat that (if you haven't changed things around since I last remembered) will ultimately come. Right now, at the end of one chapter, we don't even really know where the plot will go. This reflects the characters' ignorance also, but still, it's something I notice.

Characterization and development: You do a good job at detailing characters and giving them some quirks, which helps make them feel real. Each one--from the old man to the financial magician to Simon to Powell--is unique and carries a distinctive voice about them (no pun intended for Simon).

Style and command: This is the thing that gives me the most pause. The style for this piece is very distinctive, particularly through Simon's narration. It's not as wordy or as jarring as I remember it, though. Again, the big thing that gets me is the apparent shift in narrator between the prologue and the first chapter (an alternative would be for Simon to recount that he has no first-hand recollection of these events, despite having been there, but he's managed to reconstruct what happened through various means).

The way you talk about Powell's habits and such makes me think this piece is best told as if in retrospective: a much older Simon thinking back on his past experiences. I like the idea of such a separation between Simon in the story and Simon the narrator that would result, but it may also distance the reader from the piece.

Theme: Knowing a little bit about what you've planned, I know that the old man is probably the main driving force behind any theme you have in mind. As I said earlier, it's not apparent how to turn his rants and diatribes into a clear-cut set of goals and motivations. Perhaps it doesn't need to be all that apparent at this stage; being too clear would make the story uninteresting and transparent.

Thanks for this commentary, it was very much worth the wait :D

Spoiler: Show

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
Plot and structure: I think you were right to be concerned about the structure and breaking up of this chapter. There isn't really a "wham, you're in a world with magic" type of moment, especially the way it's constructed.

Hmm. I'd have thought a train full of goblins would be a hint that something's odd, but I guess from how much magic gets mentioned in the earlier omniscient narration, and from the magic-related metaphors Simon uses to talk about the internship, when more magic pops up it's less striking for the reader than it is for Simon.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
For instance, I can imagine starting with Simon on the train, picking up the notebook, and the notebook is somehow removed from him yet magically ends up back in his pocket. That strikes me as a short, quick scene that would rapidly establish that something supernatural is afoot without giving away as much as you do.

Hmm. The way I could see this happening in reality is that Simon tosses the notebook into a lost and found slot (which would be operational), and then finds it back in his pocket minutes later. Then Powell pops up to explain things to him. In some ways, it's a more natural series of events (Powell doesn't have to push against Simon's skepticism as much), but it would actually take longer to develop, though, than what happens here....

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
You could consider instead stopping right after Simon finds the notebook back in his pocket. I think for that, Powell would need to have a different attitude, perhaps as part of trying to convince Simon of the otherworldliness of this happening. She could tell him he must be trying to pull some prank on her, that he must not be Simon Molloy and is just trying to have this object passed around through the LPO to get money into someone's hands, etc. The only other explanation would be something supernatural going on, and no one would believe that unless the notebook just happens to go back to Simon's pocket. That could be the moment it all finally clicks for Simon. Then the train ride could be the start of the next chapter, just showing how deep the rabbit hole goes, so to speak.

Okay, those are neat ideas; though they either don't fit with Powell's knowledge and motivations, or they make a hash of chronological order. I have enough complicated stuff happening here, I think, without messing up the order of events with flashbacks.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
The piece does feel a bit slow. We're what, 10000 words in, and we have no idea what this notebook is all about? Slow starts aren't a crime; just concerned that people are gonna wonder why they should continue reading the piece. There's a sense of magic being commonplace and everywhere, which doesn't lend itself to wonder and awe. There's no hint of the threat that (if you haven't changed things around since I last remembered) will ultimately come. Right now, at the end of one chapter, we don't even really know where the plot will go. This reflects the characters' ignorance also, but still, it's something I notice.

Other people on IRC told me not to worry about slow beginnings, so I didn't worry as much. We'll see if they were right about this, I guess.

/me walks off to press-gang alethiophile into looking at this story, given that he was the guy (I think?) who reassured me about this issue.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
Characterization and development: You do a good job at detailing characters and giving them some quirks, which helps make them feel real. Each one--from the old man to the financial magician to Simon to Powell--is unique and carries a distinctive voice about them (no pun intended for Simon).

As I mentioned before, I just hope they sound sufficiently American....

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
Style and command: This is the thing that gives me the most pause. The style for this piece is very distinctive, particularly through Simon's narration. It's not as wordy or as jarring as I remember it, though. Again, the big thing that gets me is the apparent shift in narrator between the prologue and the first chapter (an alternative would be for Simon to recount that he has no first-hand recollection of these events, despite having been there, but he's managed to reconstruct what happened through various means).

Yep. The fact that I needed omniscient narration for the prologue is what drove the decision to make it a separate prologue in the first place. Likewise for a scene I posted earlier with the old man at the convenience store, which at least has a section separator in front of it. I think Simon's total absence from those scenes should be enough hint that this is a bit of a narrative shift going on.

I have another bit of omniscient narration I'm tempted to include near the end that elucidates things about Powell a bit more, but I might have to cut it entirely. My only way to actually keep it would have to format the scene in question in highly intrusive italics, to make it obvious that this is an interpolation into Simon's non-omniscient retelling of events, so I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile. Still thinking about it.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
The way you talk about Powell's habits and such makes me think this piece is best told as if in retrospective: a much older Simon thinking back on his past experiences. I like the idea of such a separation between Simon in the story and Simon the narrator that would result, but it may also distance the reader from the piece.

That's another way to think of the narration, that has the advantage of being more unified among the sections.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM
Theme: Knowing a little bit about what you've planned, I know that the old man is probably the main driving force behind any theme you have in mind. As I said earlier, it's not apparent how to turn his rants and diatribes into a clear-cut set of goals and motivations. Perhaps it doesn't need to be all that apparent at this stage; being too clear would make the story uninteresting and transparent.

As I said, it's always possible to go back to this section later and make his allusions more explicit if it seems necessary.

Spoiler: Show

Quote
QuotePlot and structure: I think you were right to be concerned about the structure and breaking up of this chapter. There isn't really a "wham, you're in a world with magic" type of moment, especially the way it's constructed.

Hmm. I'd have thought a train full of goblins would be a hint that something's odd, but I guess from how much magic gets mentioned in the earlier omniscient narration, and from the magic-related metaphors Simon uses to talk about the internship, when more magic pops up it's less striking for the reader than it is for Simon.

Yeah, it could be that, knowing this was a piece predicated on magic being real and such (and just how deep that goes, that Powell is involved, etc.) I just can't give a good bead on how this all fits together to an unknowing reader. I realize now that seeing those goblins is the first real concrete proof Simon has encountered of something extraordinary, as well as that Powell is knee-deep in that world. So it is a big deal, in that sense.

QuoteAs I mentioned before, I just hope they sound sufficiently American....

I dunno, I think you may be worried about this too much. In a purely textual medium, I can hardly tell the difference between other people I know from Canada and other Americans, aside from spelling differences. At the least, there's little that comes to mind as being able to instantly distinguish the two. What I notice in people from the UK is the tendency to use plural verbs for collective nouns (this may be a bad example, but something like, "The team are coming on the pitch" vs. "The team is taking the field"?) But I haven't noticed if Canadians are more American or more British in that respect. You probably know.

QuoteYep. The fact that I needed omniscient narration for the prologue is what drove the decision to make it a separate prologue in the first place. Likewise for a scene I posted earlier with the old man at the convenience store, which at least has a section separator in front of it. I think Simon's total absence from those scenes should be enough hint that this is a bit of a narrative shift going on.

I have another bit of omniscient narration I'm tempted to include near the end that elucidates things about Powell a bit more, but I might have to cut it entirely. My only way to actually keep it would have to format the scene in question in highly intrusive italics, to make it obvious that this is an interpolation into Simon's non-omniscient retelling of events, so I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile. Still thinking about it.

Yeah, I would avoid a massive block of italics; my attitude toward that nowadays is that large swaths just let you get away with not adequately saying what's meant.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 03, 2013, 12:17:42 AM
... and if I try to make Powell's voice fit her image in my head, she starts sounding British, too.

Huh. To be honest, I was actually picturing Powell with something of a Boston accent, but I have no idea how to actually convey that in writing (knowing mostly just the general sound and not any specific mannerisms/turns of phrase). If you know of a good source for a story with an overtly Bostonian character, that might be neat to take a look at (even if that just shows my idea of her accent is unworkable).

This is complicated by the fact that the only New England writer I can think of right now, HP Lovecraft, writes stories that feel fairly British to me, and would have still been writing around the time Powell was growing up. (But that Britishness could be a factor of Lovecraft's addiction to purple prose, something that shouldn't be an issue with Powell....) Though if that trend bears out over other Bostonian writers I look at from the same time period, then I guess they don't call it New England for nothing....

What other writers do I know off the top of my head from Massachusetts? Poe? Way too early.... seriously, there needs to be some kind of searchable database of writers by time period and place of origin and preferred alcoholic drink and all kinds of trivia like that....

Quote from: Muphrid on June 03, 2013, 12:17:42 AM
... realize now that seeing those goblins is the first real concrete proof Simon has encountered of something extraordinary, as well as that Powell is knee-deep in that world. So it is a big deal, in that sense.

I'd say 'neck-deep', but that'll certainly be established later... I guess the "wham" aspect of this scene is toned down by the fact that Simon tries so hard, and partly succeeds at, taking the whole thing in stride. In some ways he doesn't have that many options in terms of overtly freaking out, not when talking isn't a free action for him...

Quote from: Muphrid on June 03, 2013, 12:17:42 AM
Yeah, I would avoid a massive block of italics; my attitude toward that nowadays is that large swaths just let you get away with not adequately saying what's meant.

>_>;; I'll also have to think about what to do about the upcoming convenience store scene, then, which has a block-of-italics that *definitely* needs to be there in one form or another. That scene is omniscient in the first place, so there it'll be more an issue of choosing a different kind formatting, rather than correcting PoV abuse.

Quote
Huh. To be honest, I was actually picturing Powell with something of a Boston accent, but I have no idea how to actually convey that in writing (knowing mostly just the general sound and not any specific mannerisms/turns of phrase). If you know of a good source for a story with an overtly Bostonian character, that might be neat to take a look at (even if that just shows my idea of her accent is unworkable).

This is complicated by the fact that the only New England writer I can think of right now, HP Lovecraft, writes stories that feel fairly British to me, and would have still been writing around the time Powell was growing up. (But that Britishness could be a factor of Lovecraft's addiction to purple prose, something that shouldn't be an issue with Powell....) Though if that trend bears out over other Bostonian writers I look at from the same time period, then I guess they don't call it New England for nothing....

What other writers do I know off the top of my head from Massachusetts? Poe? Way too early.... seriously, there needs to be some kind of searchable database of writers by time period and place of origin and preferred alcoholic drink and all kinds of trivia like that....

I can't think of anyone from Massachusetts specifically; I know King is from Maine, so that would at least be in the ballpark, but that's about all. As for my trouble with catching her accent and hearing it right in my head, I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the time I really hear her as sounding like a mature woman from the 1920s (the smoking adds to that image), which just has the problem of not jiving with the image of her, but does jive with her attitude a bit more. Really, you could have five people read it and hear her five different ways; I don't know how to solve that problem. Might just come with the territory.

Quote
>_>;; I'll also have to think about what to do about the upcoming convenience store scene, then, which has a block-of-italics that *definitely* needs to be there in one form or another. That scene is omniscient in the first place, so there it'll be more an issue of choosing a different kind formatting, rather than correcting PoV abuse.

Something I've seen is using a different, but otherwise ordinary, font. Might get the idea across without being as hard on the eyes (which is my big concern about long swaths of italics; I feel like it actually gets irritating to read after a while).

Attached is the second part of Chapter 1, in a somewhat more rough state than the previous section.

Turns out, what I thought would be the first chapter is going to be split into four parts rather than three, due to the impossibility of covering so much ground in quite as many words as I'd thought. Putting the dialogue in order, I discovered a bit of drama I'd overlooked, that makes for a nice place to put a section break. Perhaps 1a and 1b would make a passable chapter 1 in the final version, resulting in a fic that's 4 chapters + prologue overall; though it's not really a cliffhanger, with the end of this section we see a definite dilemma establish itself (not the same one as Simon faces by the end), and that gives some considerable idea of what's supposed to make the world described here interesting.

There may be problems with the sheer amount of exposition and people talking, and with the sheer depth of the arcana that Powell tries to cover involving spiritual beings, in relatively few words. But then again, this fic isn't really trying to be Harry Potter, either, in terms of how the pacing and worldbuilding are handled. How to handle this aspect of the world (there is a LOT of potential depth to get lost in, certainly far more than is discussed here) is something I could definitely use some feedback to help recalibrate.

_{Fair warning: I'm going on a camping trip without Internet starting tomorrow afternoon, so I unless a feral wireless hotspot ambushes me in the bushes near Lake Huron, I'll most likely only be able to see and reply to any feedback on Monday.}

Edit: added a newer revision (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102788.msg1044701.html#msg1044701) below, all further comments should be directed to that one.

Some flow/wording issues:

Spoiler: Show

And questions and comments

Spoiler: Show

Ah, thanks for the prompt reply. (Didn't see it while I was still on IRC.)

I'll leave the minor issues for when I get back. For now, I consider just the important things below.

Some flow/wording issues:

Spoiler: Show

And questions and comments

Spoiler: Show

Thanks again for the feedback!

Tweaked some of the parts of the last section (1b) (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,102788.msg1044526.html#msg1044526) to produce what's hopefully a better emphasis on the nature of the genie's powers, with less melodrama. Also updated prologue and section 1a above with some minor tweaks.

Some thoughts on how I wound up handling the revised section 1a. The problems in the first draft were, in my opinion:

Spoiler: Show

Okay, and a point-by-point response to the rest of JonBob's feedback, that I hadn't addressed in my earlier response.

Some flow/wording issues:

Spoiler: Show

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
QuoteIn reality, it felt more like someone's clean but neglected garage or basement, writ large.
Don't think I've encountered "writ large" ever before. Maybe "only larger"?

'Writ large' basically means 'the same thing on a larger scale'. It's a reasonable idiom for Simon to be using, I think.

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
Quoteseemed to be given special pride of place
"place of pride"?

Again, this can be thought of as a weird expression of the kind Simon has an abnormal affinity towards in his narration.

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
QuoteShe looked more nervous of me than I was of her, somehow, thought not in an unfriendly way.
"though" - also, how does one look nervous in an (un)friendly way? I can imagine it, but mostly it would be "nervous" by itself.

Thanks, I've tried to clarify the balance between the genie's nervousness and her generally happy attitude (before they make her promise not to grant wishes).

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
QuoteI on my part realized suddenly and in great detail that I was in fact holding her bridal-style, nearly dropped her, then figured out how to let her down to the floor in a gentle-enough fashion, then composed myself in an attempt to wipe from my memory the precise nature of the soft sensation of cradling her shoulder like that.
a bit run-on

Thanks, I've split that up.

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
Quoterequires for someone to deliberately transport, with the utmost care, and then deliberately drop an almost-priceless genie on a train... can you imagine what sort of reason someone might have for doing that?
"requires someone to deliberately..."

Personally, I think the original quote here is fine.

Quote from: JonBob on June 12, 2013, 01:21:54 PM
Quotemy sense of honour said I shouldn't take what is mine
is mine or isn't mine?

QuoteI was briefly tempted to wonder if I should turn it the voice in to the Lost Property Office
"turn the voice in" or "turn it, the voice, in to". probably more the first

Thanks for the catch there, in both cases -- oops >_>;;

Plot and Structure

We see a bit of the LPO and Powell's idiosyncratic interactions with her coworkers. Of more importance is her conversation with Desmond. We find out that magic is fairly well-known in higher circles, enough that the US government would catalogue and store articles of sufficient danger. Desmond seems cursorily aware of this, too, and treats such matters merely like they're not really his area of responsibility or expertise.

Powell exposes the genie and explains more of what concerns her: it is highly unusual for a genie to be left unbound and unattended. This helps shape the future plot: finding out who left the genie and for what purpose. We already know who that is, of course, but for what purpose remains unclear.

Still, it strikes me that the threat we're being told of is very intellectual in nature, driven by lack of knowledge. We see Powell is concerned, but we cannot really grasp the magnitude of the danger that is posed. We're only convinced that there is something serious going on thanks to all this exposition. I can't really think of any other way to go about this, however, without making significant changes, so you may just have to roll with it.

Characterization and Development

Quote"Why is this an issue for us, anyways?" Mr. Desmond asked. "We can't store the notebook, and does the kid even want to return a genie to us at this point? Can't we just tell him, 'congratulations, you've won a free genie' and send him on his way?"

Desmond seems to be taking this quite in stride, all things considered. He certainly doesn't seem surprised by a genie appearing before him, more irritated, as if just witnessing this mess means more paperwork for him.

Powell seems quite tense in trying to cut through Desmond's authority to do what she intends. This is, perhaps, the first time we've seen her on edge. She rightly comes off a bit intimidating, and she conveys the seriousness of the situation well.

The genie comess off like a fish out of water, unaccustomed to the situation she's in, and to be honest, rather childish in temperment. Perhaps this just goes well with the image she's projecting.

Simon has kept rather level through this whole affair. He appreciates Powell's reasoning and does the logical thing in having the genie hold off from granting more of his desires for the moment.

Style and Command

QuoteBelow the window was a square, metal trapdoor, presumably for handing packages back and forth; beside the window was another completely uninviting door with a stern admonishment restricting access to "authorized personnel only".

I think the quotes go outside the ending punctuation? Or maybe this is a regional thing.

Quote"Yeeah," the guy at the computer remarked, taking Powell's appearance entirely in stride, "as always, you all just can't take a joke. Want to get down here and do your part of the job? There's more than a few items here that seemed a bit off to us."

Are you deliberately drawing out this vowel?

QuoteThis was the exact opposite of either of those cases. I was unexpectedly looking down into the eyes of a short, highly attractive girl with dark hair and a face that was most suited for smiling wryly; an appearance that wasn't at all powerful or intimidating.[...]

Instead of the semicolon, perhaps consider a dash?

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
We see a bit of the LPO and Powell's idiosyncratic interactions with her coworkers. Of more importance is her conversation with Desmond. We find out that magic is fairly well-known in higher circles, enough that the US government would catalogue and store articles of sufficient danger. Desmond seems cursorily aware of this, too, and treats such matters merely like they're not really his area of responsibility or expertise.

...

Still, it strikes me that the threat we're being told of is very intellectual in nature, driven by lack of knowledge. We see Powell is concerned, but we cannot really grasp the magnitude of the danger that is posed. We're only convinced that there is something serious going on thanks to all this exposition. I can't really think of any other way to go about this, however, without making significant changes, so you may just have to roll with it.

Okay. This gives me a few other things to try to clarify, if I can. Simon doesn't see any problem with taking the unexpected in stride; however, having other apparently-normal people react normally may leave him a little confused as to who is and isn't supposed to know about magic, so I might have him comment on the notion of Desmond reacting to the notion of a genie with nothing more than (*ugh; this again*).

As for the intellectual nature of the threat, I'm not sure what the best way to roll with it is. Powell restates her case for being suspicious of the situation a lot -- first to Mr. Desmond, then to Simon with the genie present, then to Simon on his own in the next section. She's urgent and dismissive to Desmond, tries to fascinate Simon with the lecture, and then a third time she'll try to impress the matter on Simon further to make him appropriately nervous about getting the authorities involved; it makes some sense that things would play out this way in practice, but the repetition is a bit unwieldy to keep fresh.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
Desmond seems to be taking this quite in stride, all things considered. He certainly doesn't seem surprised by a genie appearing before him, more irritated, as if just witnessing this mess means more paperwork for him.

Indeed. There's no chance to do it in this story, but exactly how Desmond manages dealing with Powell (or doesn't) would be worth further exploration. Powell's strategy is generally to overwhelm Desmond with an unknown situation, so that he's forced to defer to her opinion until he can get his own knowledge from some other source; by which point Powell is already in control of the issue.

There's a bit of an Orwellian dimension here, in that Powell's understanding is that the authorities tasked with dealing with genies would not be on Simon's side or care about his interests or rights. While Mr. Desmond is okay, she's walking a terribly thin line here between having to present the truth of the matter (which he can and will go and verify on his own), and emphasizing it in such a way that he won't bother with the authorities, while letting her do her own appraisal.

That dimension of things is a bit complicated to get across while it's still going way over the narrator's head, though....

Really, Powell is pretty much caught off balance by the genie popping up. She goes to Jay St. - MetroTech knowing in advance she'll find something, but not something this major. And the old man is totally off her radar right now. She really doesn't have any reason beyond the principle that anything so major and so unknown is, by default, to be considered extremely dangerous.

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
The genie comess off like a fish out of water, unaccustomed to the situation she's in, and to be honest, rather childish in temperment. Perhaps this just goes well with the image she's projecting.

It most likely has a lot to do with an (unconsciously felt) need to be as likeable as possible. So, most of her uncertainty and discomfort are expressed through a (more tolerable) childishness rather than a more 'adult' reaction, which (my gut feeling is) would be more unpleasant for Simon to deal with. Here, having to thwart her works in a way that makes him more likely to feel emotional involvement for her, not less.

So whatever her personality, and even if it's somewhat malleable from person to person (was she quite like this with the much older fireman, for instance?), it shouldn't be thought of as a deception. (It's far easier to just become the personality you're presenting than to have to consciously project it... and a lot more genuine.)

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
I think the quotes go outside the ending punctuation? Or maybe this is a regional thing.

The scary-looking government website tells me that Canadian periods go inside the quotes, so I shall obey lest they send Mounties to beat me with their ceremonial exclamation marks.

(http://www.btb.gc.ca/btb.php?lang=eng&cont=1422)

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
Are you deliberately drawing out this vowel?

Yep, not sure if that's the right thing to do or not. (It would be drawn out in speech, but is it acceptable to represent it like that?)

For whatever reason, I really like how the data entry guy turned out. He takes Powell in stride, estimates the dimensions of things just by holding them, and is well aware of the basically inane professionalism his job requires on most days (cataloging items, the vast majority of which will never be returned). (Desmond, on the other hand, takes things a bit too seriously.)

Quote from: Muphrid on June 23, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
Instead of the semicolon, perhaps consider a dash?

Will do.

QuoteThere's a bit of an Orwellian dimension here, in that Powell's understanding is that the authorities tasked with dealing with genies would not be on Simon's side or care about his interests or rights. While Mr. Desmond is okay, she's walking a terribly thin line here between having to present the truth of the matter (which he can and will go and verify on his own), and emphasizing it in such a way that he won't bother with the authorities, while letting her do her own appraisal.

That dimension of things is a bit complicated to get across while it's still going way over the narrator's head, though....

Yeah, I definitely got that impression--that she was trying to have it a little both ways because it was the only way she could get the freedom to do as she needed while also justifying her involvement in the first place.

QuoteIt most likely has a lot to do with an (unconsciously felt) need to be as likeable as possible. So, most of her uncertainty and discomfort are expressed through a (more tolerable) childishness rather than a more 'adult' reaction, which (my gut feeling is) would be more unpleasant for Simon to deal with. Here, having to thwart her works in a way that makes him more likely to feel emotional involvement for her, not less.

So whatever her personality, and even if it's somewhat malleable from person to person (was she quite like this with the much older fireman, for instance?), it shouldn't be thought of as a deception. (It's far easier to just become the personality you're presenting than to have to consciously project it... and a lot more genuine.)

Right, it gives the feeling that these genies are very malleable by nature, and a personality is little different from an outfit in terms of how easy it is to change, and how it does change to fit the audience. But as you say, there's no inherent malice in doing this.

Posting the current version I have to the next section, in spite of it being extremely rough. (I'm a bit too snowed-under at work to do much writing, and it's been far too long since the last section was posted, so I'm posting what I have instead of revising much....)

I at least have the events in this bit correct, and have covered at least the necessary info so far, so there's not much to be gained from hiding the chapter away at this point while I'm thinking how to fix. Editing this part would hopefully be more an issue of streamlining / removing exposition and tweaking prose style.

NB: on re-reading the above section, I've found it to be disappointingly sub-par (worse than the initial versions of the other ones); it remains to be seen how I'll fix the problems I see with it.

So just as a heads up if any people are still interested in sharing impressions, that general impressions will probably be more useful than prose style tweaks (for scenes that will probably be changed anyways).

Eh, too late, I wrote this up this afternoon and forgot to post.

Plot and Structure

Forbis is Powell's subordinate, yet she goes to Desmond to find Forbis another task. This seems necessary for Powell to get some freedom from Forbis, but it also seems straining logically.

The whole scene with Desmond, Powell, and Forbis seems very strained. There isn't an ounce of civility, even feigned civility, here. It makes the scene a bit uneasy to read through.

To me, the idea that the notebook was deliberately lost always seemed a bit off, and the old man's reappearance seems to bear that out. Maybe he realizes that Simon has the genie when he talks to him, or maybe he doesn't, but he seems frantic enough before he runs into Simon. This makes Powell's estimations and guesses seem a bit boring because we know she's a ways off from the truth. This also makes the interview scene at Powell's desk seem a bit dry, too, because it ends up with her not really finding much of anything. The scene does not, in itself, seem to progress anything.

Characterization and Development

Simon's scene during dinner, talking to himself, seems quite an apt response to his newfound voice.

Powell's in a somewhat tough situation trying to persuade Simon to trust her while also saying he should be skeptical and paranoid.

Style and Command

QuoteIn addition to the sign, the door was emblazoned with a number of attention-grabbing safety decals, akin to the "Danger: Radiation" or "Danger: Biohazard" signs most people are familiar with, though these did not use any logos that I even remotely recognized. One looked deceptively similar to the biohazard warning sign, but instead of linked spikes or horns it consisted of strange free-floating ones, arranged in a way that somehow immediately brought to my mind the word 'disjoint'. Other symbols were far less recognizable. The most enigmatic logo, given pride of place in the middle of the bunch, was simply a pentagram with a question mark in the middle. The general impression was highly intimidating.

Nice imagery. I think this works very well from a first-person perspective.

Quote"Yeah, in the interest of brevity, please don't try to hold yourself back: I am asking for a lot any you have no reason to trust me, is that what you're getting at? It would be a hypocrisy for me to bring up 'good old-fashioned paranoia' and not expect something like this...."

Correct to "and".

QuoteBy this kind of goading interaction, Powell quickly obtained more information about what I'd been doing in New York than I myself could even be bothered to keep track of on a daily basis.

By this kind of goading interaction, Powell quickly obtained a fairly complete picture of my life so far in New York; indeed, a more complete picture than I had even bothered to assemble on my own, which was sobering.

Is this repetition intentional?

Quote"Ugh... Well, coming back to my main point. The genie is bound to you. In fact, it would have been bound to the first person to take an unguarded look inside that notebook, without special handling procedures. And once it's bound, you can't just lost a genie on the subway. And yet, in spite of all that, you found the notebook, and so someone must have taken special precautions to drop it. See the problem?"

Lose.

Quote"If you're the 'best magician in North America', then why are you working at the lost and found, then?" I asked.

Comma inside/outside quotation marks thing.

Misc

Quote"Did you honestly expect me to make things easy for you? Now get out of here; Mr. Desmond should be able to find you another task, I think, while I get Simon and this damned genie sorted out."

She referred to him as Molloy earlier, as well as later. Actually, she seems to go back and forth seemingly at random.

Thanks for the response anyway. This at least helped me solidify a list of things to pay attention to:

Spoiler: Show

Oh, and to add about the interrogation scene: while it's true that the characters don't accomplish much in it, it does showcase or underscore a lot of things about both these characters -- Simon's sense of social isolation, his somewhat thoughtless decision to take the job (which Powell finds ridiculous), Powell's approach to these kinds of situations. And this is also the first time Powell explicitly brings up the government and why Simon wouldn't be able to trust them on this.

So, in terms of rewriting it, I should probably focus on having it get down sooner to revealing these kinds of things, I guess?

Spoiler: Show

Quote
Quote from: Muphrid on July 27, 2013, 12:47:56 AM
To me, the idea that the notebook was deliberately lost always seemed a bit off, and the old man's reappearance seems to bear that out. Maybe he realizes that Simon has the genie when he talks to him, or maybe he doesn't, but he seems frantic enough before he runs into Simon. This makes Powell's estimations and guesses seem a bit boring because we know she's a ways off from the truth. This also makes the interview scene at Powell's desk seem a bit dry, too, because it ends up with her not really finding much of anything. The scene does not, in itself, seem to progress anything.

Hmm. Handling this well requires a lot of thought. Basically, prudence doesn't really allow Powell to assume the best about the notebook, so she prefers to act on the best guess she has, even if it's a bit of a wild goose chase, rather than to let Simon alone.

This does, in my opinion, reveal a lot more about her character than anything else she does. She's willing to take drastic action that she decides on the turn of a dime, with a low probability of results, in spite of the huge inconvenience it causes to Simon, simply because it has a better chance of unearthing information or catching someone off balance than if she did nothing or referred him to the government.

In point of fact, she guesses correctly that there is a plan going on, though not what the plan is, nor that Simon is only included in it due to an actual accident. (From what I understand, she also has her probability magic running, and is somewhat alarmed due to the fact that Simon's appearance was triggered by no less than three separate templates for events she wanted to occur -- and she can't really figure out why; but she isn't actually able to cite that as a reason.)

It could be that I'm predisposed to look at Powell's efforts as trying to figure out what's going on more than her being cautious against what might be going on. The two are fairly intertwined--she wants to do both--but on their face things don't seem as bad as Powell suspects they might be. So maybe the disconnect is that the audience doesn't have that same sense of dread and foreboding that Powell does. So far, the genie's efforts have turned out to be innocuous. Maybe what we need to see is a vindication of Powell's caution, something that shows us that the genie is indeed booby-trapped in some life-threatening manner.

Quote
Quote from: Muphrid on July 27, 2013, 12:47:56 AM
She referred to him as Molloy earlier, as well as later. Actually, she seems to go back and forth seemingly at random.

Hmm, that's something to also think about. What I know is that she addresses Simon in her own head as 'Molloy', but if she's trying to be nice she has to remind herself that he should be called by first name. The latter really doesn't feel as natural to her, though, not for addressing someone she doesn't know intimately.

I'm not sure if that bit of ambivalence should play out in the way it's done here -- but however her choice of what name to use when is changed, that's the logic it should conform to....

I think you might just make a moment where Powell is clearly and deliberately calling him by first name--i.e. she catches herself saying Molloy and then decides to call him Simon partway through, for instance.

QuoteAnd anyhow, besides that there are a few other things I'm concerned with:

Powell looking up the genie in the Gray Book needs a lot more lampshading. I rush through it without addressing some incredibly obvious questions -- what is the Gray Book? How does Powell look up a genie in it, if the genie's appearance was largely just invented today for Simon's benefit? &c
Powell's arrogance when she 'shadow clones' the notebook needs a bit of fine-tuning. Also, a key component of the magic I didn't put in was getting permission from the genie. ("Could I impose on you for just a second?") A major problem is that the magic doesn't seem at all flashy or impressive to Simon, nor even to Powell (even though it's an on-the-spot adaptation of a half-finished version of a more complex spell she's in the process of inventing, this version doesn't really depend on any controversial or unexpected principles). Basically, the genie projects herself as a visible human body, since that's useful for interacting with the world, but she could just as easily be coaxed to project herself as another notebook in addition to that.
Actually, the whole 'greatest/best magician in North America' epithet is brought up kind of awkwardly in this section, even though that is what Powell at least strives to be. I may or may not have to postpone actually exploring that for further stories entirely.
Another iteration on the descriptions of Powell's warehouse. I need to think through a few other parts besides the safety decals with similar rigor, I think.
A better grasp on how much time all this is taking. I do know Powell tries to rush it along out of consideration for Simon, but it has to be early enough at the end of the scene that going immediately to talk to Guard would not be an insane proposition.
The interaction between Simon and the genie needs to be expanded just a bit -- e.g. them saying goodbye before Powell sends Simon off to dinner (which she should do a bit less abruptly, perhaps). The interactions I have right now are a bit place-holdery.
Really, I get the feeling that with all the repetition of certain insistences from Powell, the current version could be compressed a bit. This alone would go quite a way towards making the wild-goose-chase element less irritating.
Finally (a question) I have an unpleasant feeling Powell speaks in a slightly different fashion during the interrogation scene than during the other scenes. This would just be due to it being one of the earliest scenes I wrote with her, but if that's the case I need to decide how much of that voice to keep (and bring the rest of her dialogue in line with) and how much to just update?

It doesn't bother me that the Gray Book is unexplained.

I got a pretty healthy image of the warehouse, Powell's desk, stuff hanging from the ceiling. I liked that part of that scene, even though I was concerned that what happened there was a little slow (which, again, may just be because we've discussed it enough I already knew the gist of what Powell would say).

I didn't notice Powell's voice being very very different from the rest of the piece.

In the process of getting the last section I posted back on the rails. For now, here's just the scene with Forbis again:

http://pastebin.com/gNUQ6Xr4

I decided to write it with a bit more nuance (especially in terms of Powell's attitude), but preserving the same general uncivil feel in terms of how it plays out. Let's see if that works better.

I think the reason it felt wrong to me before wasn't so much the scene itself, but how well it was meshing with what came after. The fact that Simon has seen a significantly nastier side of Powell here will probably have to be factored into the reasoning for his subsequent decision to trust her anyway.

Wild (rest of) Chapter 1 appears. And when I say wild, I mean extremely wild, as in very rough, except the parts I've already done revision on. (Really, it's Part I of the story, not Chapter 1; 37,000 words in a chapter has got to be some kind of mockery.)

Take this more as a preview of stuff until I have more time to do revision. In practice, I find to polish a scene I have to write it off-the-cuff (this version), then redo it as a script-fic (mercifully not shown), then turn the script-fic back into real narration. Chapter 1a and the early parts of 1b with Mr. Desmond got the full extent of that treatment, while the rest... not so much; and I'm pretty sure it shows most places.

Also would appreciate comments on the font I use to denote 'vision' scenes -- which covers most of the scenes where the narration goes omniscient. So far the end of Chapter 1d is the only example of this.

I'm just posting all the files in one pile for now (1d is totally new; 1c is rewritten, but still a stab in the dark; the rest are revised but mostly the same); will update thread more properly when I have more time...

I took a look at chapter-01c and diffed it against the previous version. I see a bit of rearrangement and changes in word choice, but nothing really big jumped out at me. Is there a specific aspect of that installment (or the others) that you would like looked at?

At any rate, here are some comments on 01d.

Plot and Structure

So we begin with a bit of a winding down from the last installment, as Powell prepares Simon to meet with the Greater Bolg. Powell gives Simon the opportunity to ask several questions, and this seems like a natural avenue to deliver some exposition while also developing Simon via the actual questions he asks. I'll touch on that in the next section, but I thought this was a nice touch to avoid the usual infomation dump because it comes about in the natural course of their conversation and in Simon's process of understanding.

The two of them soon arrive on the Upper West Side and are taken to see Guard. So, Powell seemed a bit concerned about Guest, but we don't actually see Guest? I guess we just heard him on the intercom and that was it. There doesn't seem to be much necessary to convince Guard, so in some ways, I feel like this whole trip is more exposition about the world.

We wrap up with the Rosa Hernandez scene which has been discussed previously but is good to see again. I must confess, I'm a bit confused about the notebook; is this the same notebook we have seen (and thus this takes place in the past) or is this another one that the old man has prepared?

Anyway, I feel like getting Simon this protection was merely a convenient reason to get more of the world expanded. Well, since that's the way the story is, I suppose that's mission accomplished.

Characterization and Development

Let's start with Powell. She answers Simon's questions for the most part, and since we're confined to Simon's POV, we can't really know much beyond what he perceives from her. There are moments she effortlessly captures the true horror of government bureaucracy; there are moments where she stops the conversation, and for the most part, these latter moments she doesn't really deny that she's stopping or ending the conversation before it gets to uncomfortable territory. So Powell is a reasonably up-front person, either directly or in admitting that she cannot or will not be direct.

It's curious that Powell gives Simon a way out as they're on the elevator. As Simon points out, he has come this far already. It is, I expect, only Powell's sense of due diligence that she offers this chance to step back. It is rather considerate on her part.

Simon takes some time to get his motor running for questions, but his questions pertain as much to the general situation as they do to Powell specifically (personal experience, as well as how Powell could have lived through the '50s, and why Powell is a rogue). It seems clear to me he has some level of interest in her personal details; she is every bit as mysterious as the world he's just learned about--indeed, she is probably more mysterious than that, and so it is reasonable that she holds his attention as much or more than what troubles him. He is quickly trying to establish a connection with her, though he may not even realize he's doing it. I see it as trying to find some kind of anchor in this new world.

Actually, I was surprised Simon didn't ask about the name Drake.

Guard comes off as appropriately dangerous as well as intelligent, which I'm sure is what you hoped to accomplish.

Style and Command

QuoteAfter Powell dashed back into the office for literally twenty seconds to fax some kind of notification that we were coming, we made our way through the complicated tangle of passageways around Penn Station in order to reach the subway station at the opposite end from where the Lost Property Unit was located.

I think this sentence would benefit from some splitting and cutting. I don't have a specific recommendation, but there's a lot of information in this sentence that I think could benefit from the focus of being separated and split up.

Quote"Actually..." she admitted, "exactly that. And with a genie, too, no less. In short, I'd be loath to use you as a guinea pig for testing whether the US Sovernment has improved in this matter over the past few decades."

Government.

QuoteWe'd already arrived at 72nd Street by this point; and between the sheer number of questions I had, and Powell's longwinded way of answering them, I felt like I'd barely scratched the surface of what I needed to know about the situation, let alone what I wanted to know simply to sate my curiousity.

Curiosity.

QuoteMuch of the harmony is enabled by the presence of the famous Ansonia building, a an architectural project [...]

An.

Quote[...] The Ansonia has been known to accomodate all sorts of people [...]

Accommodate.

QuoteThe desultory crackling at the other end of the line indicated that the person on the other end considered themselves far too important to actually say something when they picked up a phone.

Repetition.

Quote"This is all a stupid mind game I'd prefer not to involve you in, but I suppose it's an inevitable cliche, like triplicate forms in a human bureaucracy. We could just barge in their frunt door, but Guest would take serious offence to that... and you need to be out of breath when you walk in, or he'll catch on that we took the elevator. And Guest is Guard's right hand advisor, so even if Guard is fine with something, annoying Guest is still not a good policy. Stupid troll politics."

Front.

Quote"So, how did you find the Bolg?" Powell asked me with genuine curiousity sparking in her eyes.

Curiosity.

Quote"This particular one refers to the fact that the Greater Bolg repeatedly injure each other for the sake of physical training. Greater Bolg heal stronger and more resilient afterwards. Lesser Bolg, that is to say humans, generally don't. Not after what a goblin would consider a mild beating, anyways. And we resemble very young goblins, so we trigger a parental urge to throw us against the nearest hard surface. To harden us up a bit. Which, in the world of the goblins," Powell sighed, "is good parenting policy. The rhyme serves as a warning that doing that kind of thing to Lesser Bolg is not the best idea. And lately, it's taken on an additional meaning of refering to a general sense of culture shock."

Referring.

Quote"Well, officially you are a member of the West Side G's now, but all that means is that you can use the sign and you shouldn't interfere with Guard's political machinations... too obviously, at least. There's really nothing they can demand of a kiwum. Now, if you were not a member, that means you wouldn't be able to use the handsign to invoke their protection, which might be necessary in a sticky situation. If a non-member tries to use it with the same intention, well, the unauthorized and fraudulent use would be magically detected and instead you'd have goblins from the 'G's showing up to challenge you on the unauthorized use of their sign; there's bylaws against that kind of thing. But beyond that, don't read into it too much. It really is exactly like giving you an ID card."

Do you feel it better to go with "there is" vs. "there are" in this case?

Quote[...] Then, instead of the standad way of forming it, this is the one I found that shifts the emphasis of the meaning more onto 'proper', [...]

QuoteHow did that happen? Perhaps there was a dim spark of something in Mr. Hernández that was far, far more ancient than the bureaucrats and policemen below; who knew whether it came from some long-forgotten lineage of grim Mesoamerican priests, who felt it their prerogative to ritually slay and and all given into their charge, a strange and horrible sacrifice they thought necessary for the greater good of all, to placate the ravening gods of the abyss? Or, worse, from some mythical philandering conquistador, invincible and implacable, utterly convinced that he could do whatever atrocity was right in his own eyes? Neither was a thing they had prepared themselves to encounter, just suddenly there, in a bad part of town where the men are in general far more straightforward and ordinary than in the good parts.

Repetition here.

QuoteFor, afterwards, the children's files somehow became fortuitiously misplaced (it is probable that not even God cares to inquire in any detail how these bureaucracies are really organized); the subsequent social workers took up the cause with resignation and not zeal, considering the matter as a situation already settled; and inquiries requiring the status of the children from all manner of authorities mysteriously vanished and did not connect to any enforcement mechanism. No one, assuming they even bothered to wonder about the situation, could quite explain how this happened.

Fortuitously.

In general: Simon as a narrator remains rather circuitous and wordy. I pointed out one sentence that I noticed; there were some others that I debated pointing out in particular, but I think what is needed is a more large-scale approach. This style is definitely characteristic of Simon, so I'm not suggesting any systematic revamping. I think only that some excessively long sentences could be broken up. It's recently been pointed out to me that the art of constructing sentences and stringing them together in paragraphs is something that authors of our sophistication can easily neglect. It's really easy to develop bad habits of word choice, to chain prepositional phrases together willy-nilly, or otherwise get lax about something we feel we have sufficient mastery over.

I admit, though, that as long as I find something reasonably readable, I seldom pay close attention to these things.

Again, it's characteristic of Simon's narration to explore things in great detail and to occasionally digress. I don't want to see that changed. I do think, however, that there can be a danger of all these disparate ideas being slammed together in a way that makes things hard to keep track of and distinct.

Misc

The whole paragraph about Homles concluding that magic exists from Powell's shirt is really great.

Quote"DO NOT EVEN THINK THAT WORD HERE!" Guard bellowed at what I hoped... to... God... was near the top of her voice already! I was getting a fairly clear idea of just why opera-grade soundproofing was a great thing to have in a troll's apartment.

That's also really great.

Quote"Oh, yes, and Simon," she began to instruct me, still on our way to the door, "Guard may be addressed directly by name, or formally as 'your humongous obesity'. That second usage is best saved for when you need to improve her mood, as she finds it amusing for some damn reason. Hopefully you will never need to actually use that bit of knowledge."

Is it not typical to capitalize such titles, like "Your Humongous Obesity"?

Is it intentional that there is no actual text on the television? It looks like there's initailly just an ellipsis or a dash?

Will respond to Muphrid's feedback a bit later, but for now, I've been trying to figure out some kind of synopsis or blurb for the story. Here's my initial stab at it....

QuotePop quiz: What role, exactly, did institutional use of genies have to play in the unprecedented expansion of bureaucracy in the United States of America throughout the 20th century?

The last American census counted approximately eight million ordinary humans, five million goblins, and fifty thousand bloodline mages living within the boundaries of New York City; this is not to forget the even stranger magical beings whose populations, for one reason or another, cannot be made subject to rigorous statistical analysis.

Of these more-than-thirteen-million sentient beings, a large proportion opts to use the New York City Subway for their daily commute, often while carrying magical artefacts of varying potency and danger. Inevitably, a fraction of said artefacts are dropped, misplaced, or otherwise lost, thereby saddling the New York Metropolitan Transit Authority's Lost Property Unit with a massive headache. Lost artefacts must be identified; they must be catalogued; fraudulent and genuine claimants must be distinguished; the lost items must, finally, be stored together in an underground warehouse near Penn Station, preferably *without* causing a massive eruption of uncontrolled magic across half of Midtown. To handle these kinds of issues, the MTA bureaucracy has prudently chosen to employ an expert magician.

Despite her unassuming exterior, Drake Powell – self-alleged 'best magician in North America', disgruntled graduate of Princeton University, probable immortal in the Taoist sense (long story) and only barely *not* a chain-smoker – is something of a loose cannon: manipulative, practically impervious to oversight, and insisting on a scandalous amount of leeway in how she manages things. But she has very good reasons for wanting to keep things secret from her superiors.

Such as, for instance, when Simon Molloy, a seventeen-year-old intern at the high-frequency stock trading company Frost & Prentice (also a long story), finds an ordinary-looking notebook on the subway. When he goes to turn it in as a lost artefact, it turns out to contain a genie. This discovery is almost certainly too good to be true – and so Powell is forced to guide Simon through the ensuing nightmare of a situation that winds up involving bureaucracy, human-goblin race relations, the Department of Homeland Security, mind control, more bureaucracy, avaricious wizards rigging the stock market, Christmas Elves engaged in corporate espionage, the World Trade Center bombings, and an angry ghost with delusions of being an Old Testament prophet....

I'm not happy with the 'list of crazy stuff that happens' at the end, but so far this is my best shot. A bit long for a blurb, but then again I don't have to post this on ff.net or anything :-P

This makes very clear the overall attitude the piece has toward magic and its existence, which I like, and it properly emphasizes Simon and Powell over the old man. I wonder if starting with background may not have enough grab, though. My instincts say start with Simon and him finding the notebook, and use the genie as a hook to introduce the world. Overall, though, I think this is pretty good.

It does seem a bit long for a blurb, though.

Quote from: Muphrid on December 05, 2013, 11:09:36 PM
This makes very clear the overall attitude the piece has toward magic and its existence, which I like, and it properly emphasizes Simon and Powell over the old man. I wonder if starting with background may not have enough grab, though.

Okay. It seems like something that will work better if you present it as the first story of a series, than for a standalone fic. Then the brunt of the introduction would describe things that recur in the series: an overall impression of the world they live in -- then the Lost Property Office and how it's likely to get involved with all kinds of strange artefacts -- then Powell (the person in charge of it) -- then Simon, her apprentice for the series duration. The circumstances that happen to bring them together are kind of an afterthought when viewed from this 20,000foot level.

Standalone, then, it's not as good; passable. I don't think the length is a problem in itself -- it's ludicrously long by ff.net standards, but seems about right for a website.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
I took a look at chapter-01c and diffed it against the previous version. I see a bit of rearrangement and changes in word choice, but nothing really big jumped out at me. Is there a specific aspect of that installment (or the others) that you would like looked at?

Not really, I guess. I suppose after some more editing and when the entire fic is drafted I will try to corral a couple of people who haven't read it yet into reading it... we'll see how that goes.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
... I thought this was a nice touch to avoid the usual infomation dump because it comes about in the natural course of their conversation and in Simon's process of understanding.

If you say so; it feels pretty close to an information dump to me, but it's a necessary evil.

Perhaps it helps a little that this is the order Simon would realistically start asking questions. (Without much rhyme or reason, since it's become obvious that things can be deceptively different from what you'd expect based on fairy tales and popular culture.)

Perhaps it helps that Powell is a bit more emotionally engaged than in the typical expository dump, given how much of it keeps bumping into unpleasant things in her past.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
So, Powell seemed a bit concerned about Guest, but we don't actually see Guest?

This will probably be amusing in retrospect if I ever get that far.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
There doesn't seem to be much necessary to convince Guard, so in some ways, I feel like this whole trip is more exposition about the world.

...

Anyway, I feel like getting Simon this protection was merely a convenient reason to get more of the world expanded. Well, since that's the way the story is, I suppose that's mission accomplished.

Perhaps, though it does set up for another Bolg appearance in the next chapter, which would otherwise be far too random and disorienting.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
We wrap up with the Rosa Hernandez scene which has been discussed previously but is good to see again. I must confess, I'm a bit confused about the notebook; is this the same notebook we have seen (and thus this takes place in the past) or is this another one that the old man has prepared?

This is a different notebook; the scene would be happening about the same time Simon was getting home. I made the notebooks are different colours, but that's really too much of an unnoticeable detail. Hmm. I wonder if there's some way to make it clearer....

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Characterization and Development

...

Simon takes some time to get his motor running for questions, but his questions pertain as much to the general situation as they do to Powell specifically (personal experience, as well as how Powell could have lived through the '50s, and why Powell is a rogue). ... He is quickly trying to establish a connection with her, though he may not even realize he's doing it. I see it as trying to find some kind of anchor in this new world.

I suppose that works. Since Powell will broach the topic of apprenticeship at the end of the story, i.e. in less than 48 hours from this point, it makes sense to build up as much unconscious rapport for them as possible. Even if it may not be well-justified at this point, or not for a reason either of them could articulate.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Actually, I was surprised Simon didn't ask about the name Drake.

Since, through no fault of Powell's or her parents, 'Drake' in the 21st century is the kind of name a whiny pop star would use, that type of question would just be awkward.

:-P

... yeah. But, for all kinds of reasons 'Drake Powell' fits so well that the surface pretentiousness might be endured.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Guard comes off as appropriately dangerous as well as intelligent, which I'm sure is what you hoped to accomplish.

That's all right, then. Guard is a character I have a very poor read on which... I think is part of her character? Politically it makes sense that she would have a well-practiced habit of keeping everyone off balance, so that no one would know quite what to make of her. Even Powell doesn't, really, though she's perceptive enough to understand that Guard is very good at concealing her angle in a situation. I get the sense 'Your Humongous Obesity' was some kind of attempt by Powell early on (while Guard was manipulating her into joining the family) to see (out of sheer frustration) if she could get under the troll's skin to see some genuine emotion, but Guard just rolled with it.

In short, Guard may just be a bit of a troll. She doesn't have much of an angle here, though; she keeps her lieutenants or maunar (Powell and Guest technically numbering among these, though Powell is not really involved in the actual business of governing) on very long leashes, which can sometimes backfire, but the upshot is that if Powell sees fit to use the West Side Gs' authority to investigate something, Guard has no objection to that.

Actually, the thought that Guard can out-manipulate Powell is kind of frightening. Or would be, if the troll wasn't so easy to satisfy.

The whole autonomous Bolg government thing is also weird to have, in a place as controlling as the United States. But it is something the human government tolerates, because the alternative would involve either having the Bolg try to challenge the humans for territory, or allowing the Bolg to vote in human elections. Both of these were reckoned as horrendously bad ideas. The way it's set up instead is that the governments have this weird mutual recognition agreement, even though the Bolg side of things barely is a government by human standards; a 'division' of Bolg is merely the fattest troll of the bunch, who cobbles together a coalition of maunar and then uses them to push everyone around on a small slice of territory into obeying what she says. Or, as Guard puts it, a "family establishment".

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Style and Command
...

All right; thank you for going through the style in such detail. I will follow all the advice here, I think :-P

Quote from: Muphrid on November 30, 2013, 01:32:03 AM
Is it intentional that there is no actual text on the television? It looks like there's initailly just an ellipsis or a dash?

I am still debating between a number of books for her to be reading, so the space is only temporarily empty. Probably The English in the West Indies: Or, The Bow of Ulysses or something similarly jarring (if the reader bothers to look it up).

Quote
This is a different notebook; the scene would be happening about the same time Simon was getting home. I made the notebooks are different colours, but that's really too much of an unnoticeable detail. Hmm. I wonder if there's some way to make it clearer....

Maybe a distinctly different surface. I remember Simon's notebook has a tortoiseshell surfacing? Alternatively, show that the old man has several notebooks that are all distinct. I mean, if he has two, is it much of a leap for him to have many more?

QuoteThe whole autonomous Bolg government thing is also weird to have, in a place as controlling as the United States. But it is something the human government tolerates, because the alternative would involve either having the Bolg try to challenge the humans for territory, or allowing the Bolg to vote in human elections. Both of these were reckoned as horrendously bad ideas. The way it's set up instead is that the governments have this weird mutual recognition agreement, even though the Bolg side of things barely is a government by human standards; a 'division' of Bolg is merely the fattest troll of the bunch, who cobbles together a coalition of maunar and then uses them to push everyone around on a small slice of territory into obeying what she says. Or, as Guard puts it, a "family establishment".

Strikes me as somewhat similar to Indian reservations: occupying a strange legal limbo between total control and jurisdiction and a total lack of control and jurisdiction, often in counter-intuitive combinations.

QuoteI am still debating between a number of books for her to be reading, so the space is only temporarily empty. Probably The English in the West Indies: Or, The Bow of Ulysses or something similarly jarring (if the reader bothers to look it up).

Reading on the television because conventional books are not Bolg sized?

Quote from: Muphrid on December 06, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
Strikes me as somewhat similar to Indian reservations: occupying a strange legal limbo between total control and jurisdiction and a total lack of control and jurisdiction, often in counter-intuitive combinations.

That's pretty close to it.

Spoiler: Show

It's potentially a very heavy topic, so I'm glad it doesn't really come into focus during this point in the story, because Simon doesn't really have the context or the perception to think about this aspect of things.

Quote from: Muphrid on December 06, 2013, 12:17:33 AM
Reading on the television because conventional books are not Bolg sized?

Indeed -- books are really not troll sized. (Although trolls are a minority of Bolg. They come in a variety of sizes from tiny imps through human-sized goblins - as we saw on the train - through the larger trolls who form sort of a governing class. It's very straightforward. Bigger and meaner means authority. How they make a principle this asinine work as a governing arrangement is far more complicated.)

Just a quick update: currently I'm trying to solidify some aspects of the world building for this universe; that's just where the muse is dragging me, I guess. If anyone is interested in helping me out with feedback on this, please PM me. I won't post my notes on this thread since they're potentially a lot more spoilery than I'd like them to be at this stage, but I'm more than willing to share them with anyone who doesn't mind that.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 07, 2014, 12:48:33 AM
Just a quick update: currently I'm trying to solidify some aspects of the world building for this universe; that's just where the muse is dragging me, I guess. If anyone is interested in helping me out with feedback on this, please PM me. I won't post my notes on this thread since they're potentially a lot more spoilery than I'd like them to be at this stage, but I'm more than willing to share them with anyone who doesn't mind that.

Changed my mind; worldbuilding thread is going to be here (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,103027.0.html). I figure I should be writing something, as long as I write regularly.

Due to unrelated stuff happening, my writing on this project has been slow. In the interim, here is a Drake Powell:

Spoiler: Show

I should also note that I'm pondering https://leanpub.com/ (https://leanpub.com/) as the publishing thingamajig for the eventual fic. While the natural thing to do there is charge some symbolic amount of money for an ebook, I'm dithering whether it's ethical for me to have that as a plan, while still posting in-progress chapters here for C&C. This is quite a ways away, but any thoughts?

_{(I honestly care for Leanpub's ebook-generator tools far more than their monetization thing, so the more important question would be to look into what tools they're using and how that can be duplicated offline, I guess.)}

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on July 06, 2014, 01:32:03 AM
Due to unrelated stuff happening, my writing on this project has been slow. In the interim, here is a Drake Powell:

Spoiler: Show Hide
(http://i.imgur.com/sySOApYl.jpg)

I should also note that I'm pondering https://leanpub.com/ (https://leanpub.com/) as the publishing thingamajig for the eventual fic. While the natural thing to do there is charge some symbolic amount of money for an ebook, I'm dithering whether it's ethical for me to have that as a plan, while still posting in-progress chapters here for C&C. This is quite a ways away, but any thoughts?

_{(I honestly care for Leanpub's ebook-generator tools far more than their monetization thing, so the more important question would be to look into what tools they're using and how that can be duplicated offline, I guess.)}

Don't know much about leanpub, but traditional publishers in general tend to care quite a bit about monetization. And if someone does a basic search and finds your work on the internet, that may negatively impact the publication process. OTOH, if this is one of those places where anyone can "publish" but you're feeling bad about charging even the minimum, some ideas:

(1) Make the sale version look slick and professional: if you personally know a top-notch computer illustrator (because one that you don't know personally won't draw for cheap), high-res portraits, NY map akin to those in fantasy novels...basically, make the buyer feel like he or she just bought the equivalent of a hardcover novel.
(2) Throw in a link to this thread in the book description and tell people up front that there is a free version. If they liked the story enough, they can donate by purchasing the ebook version.
(3) Learn to live with the horrifying thought that some people may end up giving you money because they believed your story might be worth that amount in the absence of knowledge of a free version on the internet.
(4) Donate the proceeds to a worthy cause. Ideally, something that has some relation to your story, but in a pinch, feeding the homeless or curing cancer works. Whether you tell people you'll do that or not upfront is up to you.
(5) If Drac is willing, request deletion of this thread once you've obtained sufficient C&C.

My understanding of copyright law here is that this forum qualifies as a private forum; attachments can only be downloaded by members, so in principle, the story is not open to the public.

How much that actually applies when anyone can sign up...is another question, though.

I think my main ethical qualm isn't in slighting the readers by charging for something that there's a free version lying around of, but in slighting anyone who contributes C&C, thereby helping materially improve the book, then turning around and selling it myself for a bunch of money.

Said qualm is probably ridiculous, because if the fic is not popular it will make only symbolic amounts of money that will not be worth the bother of giving C&Cers a cut, and if the fic is popular enough to make more than symbolic amounts of money, then Soulriders would no longer be a feasible place to post random drafts and spoilers for further instalments anyways :-P

As you can see my kind-of-plan (publishing in the medium-to-long term) is also to include illustrations, and generally go for a full-glossy novel experience. (Drawing is easier to fit into my current schedule than writing, actually, because I can scribble things a bit at a time and then assemble some kind of more polished work based on those, whereas writing requires long chunks of time.) So yeah, map of goblin trade colonies across New York, pretentious preface, and all that stuff. So, on that note, I suppose I can justify it as a "premium" thing even if a free version is lying around.

(Attachment is the kind of thing leanpub spits out as a PDF / ebook / whatever.)

The issue of people going to SR to look at drafts for free is totally moot when anyone can also put up the Leanpub-generated PDF as a torrent, which I have better things to do than police.

Quote from: Muphrid on July 06, 2014, 02:16:17 AM
How much that actually applies when anyone can sign up...is another question, though.

In some ways I'm wasting my time pondering further the hypothetical of "what if this makes a bunch of money and popularity". Probably I'll put up the book and about 3 people will be interested (I'll still have discharged the debt to my muse), in which case they're more than welcome to track me down to Soulriders if they so care. If a bazillion people unexpectedly start to buy it then there may be an issue of making sure they don't all have a stupid reason to flood into SR, but I suppose that kind of thing would be easy to handle as it comes up.

So, my main question was resolving the ethical moment of whether the C&Cers I've had thus far object to something eventually becoming a commercial work, and the response at the moment seems to be "Enh." So it doesn't seem like a problem.

On an unrelated note, I'm curious how far off Powell is from your mental image :-P

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on July 06, 2014, 02:32:55 AM
I think my main ethical qualm isn't in slighting the readers by charging for something that there's a free version lying around of, but in slighting anyone who contributes C&C, thereby helping materially improve the book, then turning around and selling it myself for a bunch of money.

Hmm...well, haven't really contributed C&C for quite awhile (I think I did for chapters of an earlier version, but life doesn't permit me the time to really dig into a story to give C&C like I used to), but for what it's worth, I would be pretty happy if anything I helped to edit became wildly popular. In the end, it's your words, your effort, and your story. It's usually authors, not editors, that are on the cover of a book. Now, if people are co-authoring, then yes, you might have a bit of a problem, but I don't think that has happened here.

But my opinion aside, per the thread history, it looks like Murphid has been really the one carrying the C&C ball here, so maybe his answer is more relevant than mine. :)

Frankly I expected that this novel would be published in some capacity (though self-publishing in particular took me by surprise). I have no problem providing feedback with that in mind; again, I expected that's how it would ultimately be used.

And, perhaps, if I get done with the fanfic bug, I have some original novel ideas of my own that I might consider writing (or in some cases, rewriting), and I can only hope that the favor would be returned in kind. I think as long as everyone's clear that that is your intention, they can choose whether to go for it or not with respect to offering c&c.

As far as my image of Powell, I had imagined big, almost childlike eyes that would clash with the usual expressions those eyes would hold. Also, flat, straight hair (though not much longer than drawn). All these being really trivial details, though, I'm not sure how important they really are to drawing her.

Quote from: Muphrid on July 07, 2014, 12:49:14 AM
Frankly I expected that this novel would be published in some capacity (though self-publishing in particular took me by surprise). I have no problem providing feedback with that in mind; again, I expected that's how it would ultimately be used.

Interestingly, I hadn't considered anything besides self-publishing. The only question would be where, and how. (The lowest cost option would be to throw it out on FictionPress - ergh - but that feels far too lazy and dismissive of the work that would go into writing it.)

Correction: I might consider options other than self-publishing if the book was short and to the point, but it actually just presumes a series that goes on and on and on... and I couldn't guarantee actually finishing that to any person who was considering it for publication. Nor is it clear that they would want a series even if I did guarantee it. I'll revisit this with you on IRC when I have more writing progress, I guess; as someone who is also pondering original-fiction, you've probably thought about the tradeoffs here as well.

I know maybe one person who might have some kind of familiarity with conventional publishing, what gets published and what doesn't, so maybe I'll ask her when I have a cohesive draft.

Quote from: Muphrid on July 07, 2014, 12:49:14 AM
And, perhaps, if I get done with the fanfic bug, I have some original novel ideas of my own that I might consider writing (or in some cases, rewriting), and I can only hope that the favor would be returned in kind. I think as long as everyone's clear that that is your intention, they can choose whether to go for it or not with respect to offering c&c.

That, I think, is what I wanted to clear up: before I post any further stuff, I just wanted to make it clear what my eventual intent to do with the story was, so people can c&c or not keeping that in mind. I certainly wouldn't care if the eventual story was going to be for-pay/for-free when giving writing feedback on a forum.

Quote from: Muphrid on July 07, 2014, 12:49:14 AM
As far as my image of Powell, I had imagined big, almost childlike eyes that would clash with the usual expressions those eyes would hold.

Maybe this scribble is also relevant:

Spoiler: Show

I do wonder if I'll realistically be able to do the illustration thing, or not, during the next couple of years. The current course I'm taking definitely pushes towards teaching a detailed structure at the expense of being accurate to imagination, in terms of character design -- which is really not what I want (if forced to trade off, I'd rather have a badly structured drawing that looks like the characters) -- so, the early classes were massively helpful, but now it feels like I'm getting into diminishing returns.

The universe keeps throwing research material my way.

I just got into an online argument with the closest thing to a real life Old Jonah Frost. Some religious-flavoured 'neoreactionary' type armchair theorist. He opined that, if given dominion over, say, the city of Toronto as it is today, he wouldn't even bother trying to fix things (it's so far gone into evil in his opinion), he'd in fact actively work to hasten a collapse of the society.

It's really weird to anticipate a person's argument even before you're aware that it's a thing. Earlier I thought Old Frost was primarily a hammy product of my imagination, who'd do passably well to drive the initial encounters.

Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

The Inn of Last Home...(^'o'^) => Creative Writing Section => Writing Section => Topic started by: Arakawa on May 31, 2013, 04:39:54 PM