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I spoke to Rye, and I'm going to start my turn re-do. Veto if you gotta. :)
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307:
No post in the forum 'Proposals Board' can be deleted without the unanimous consent of all players. Additionally, no post in the forum 'Proposals Board' can be edited under any circumstances.
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Nice and simple. Forget 'leaving a record' and stuff - just don't do it, and put down another post if you have to retract or state what else you said.
No argument here.
No argument here either. If we play another nomic in the future sometime perhaps this should be included in the starting rules too.
Might want to give it teeth, If you do edit or delete you will be fined an ungodly amount of points ( if your a new player you get one warning).
Sounds so very, very good to me ;)
The problem with giving proposals teeth instead of simply declaring that you can't is that it becomes more of a trade - "I'll be willing to delete my post for ten points" - than a discouragement. When you say you can't - you simply can't, because the rules say you can't.
I agree with Sax on that one. If we find that we need to start punishing people for breaking rules, we'll have to figure that out in ze future. As it is, you just can't break the rules. If oyu do, I guess, that action can't take place in the context of the game - and so, it didn't! *nodnod*
Quote from: "SuperusSophia"Sounds so very, very good to me ;)
Bwaha. This was pretty much the first thing I was planning to throw up after everything went up in smoke. My only real disagreement with how you were going to go about it was allowing edits period. ;) Confusion could happens there anyway.
I was thinking a 100 Point penalty was ungodly enough but whatever. The truth is this will come up - someone will violate the rules and you will not be able to say oh it just didn't happen. When that time comes, unless there is legislation to deal with it, it will be up to the Judge or the Player Community as a whole to figure out what to do with a player they cannot stop from violating the rules because they have no leverage over the individual player.
I guess it's a now or later situation so it is not imperative we deal with it now, but the longer the mentality exists 'it can happen because the rules say it cant' the bigger mess we will be in later.
on another note:
Quote from: "CasualSax"I'm resigning from the game, much to the delight of a few I'm sure. The stress to fun ratio is simply not compelling. Peace.
unfortuneatly CasualSax we do not have any legislation regarding the addition of players to the game. You will need to wait until we can reinstate you as a player before participating further. I'm sorry you decided to leave us, but since you did remove yourself from the game we will need some legislation inorder to add you to the game again.
Rez tells me that it is possible to block the edit and delete features of the forum. I think these might need to be changed too
Its all very well putting it in the rules but the forum would still support it. Which makes violations possible even tempting if theres virtually no record of what was there or when it was deleted and its only accessible by admins.
Punishments do not need to be point deduction either... A punishement such as forfeit/lose is pretty discouraging.
I was thinking the same thing, Itarien. And automatic removal of the player from the game would certainly make it not-worth it to the player.
and...
Quoteunfortuneatly CasualSax we do not have any legislation regarding the addition of players to the game. You will need to wait until we can reinstate you as a player before participating further. I'm sorry you decided to leave us, but since you did remove yourself from the game we will need some legislation inorder to add you to the game again.
Are you serious? We finally get things moving again and NOW you want to nitpick and start removing people?!?! There is nothing in the rules even considering the potential of a player getting fed up with the game, then when it gets going again joining back in. Word to the wise, just drop it!
True, punishments do not have to be point penalties. Losing a turn or ingame privledges would be more appropriate for most situations I'm sure. I would like to point out that as the rules stand now players cannot actually get kicked out of the game, they can only volunarily leave the game. I guess you could pass legislation to take away somones points as soon as they were earned - so there was no way for tem to earn points and win the game.
Quote from: "SuperusSophia"
Are you serious? We finally get things moving again and NOW you want to nitpick and start removing people?!?! There is nothing in the rules even considering the potential of a player getting fed up with the game, then when it gets going again joining back in. Word to the wise, just drop it!
I am not removing him, He removed himself. There are several players who have kept particularly quiet throughout the stall - I can only presume they were fed up with the situation and did not want to participate -they have not removed themselves from this game. It was fairly clear when we started that adding players would require legislation. But you are correct in one matter there are no rules governing absences, perhaps there should be.
I see no rules governing the removal of players from the game, either. :)
QuoteI'm resigning from the game,
This is indicative of an intent and that he is currently in the act. There is nothing to indicate that the act was -done-, merely an intention to. I see no reason he wouldn't still be a player in the game until he gives formal notice of his resignation.
If he indeed changes his mind before such formal notice is given, that's indeed his right.
While there are no rules governing the removal of players from the game there are rules that deal with resignation.
113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
Casual Sax indicated his desire not to continue to play, left his reason for leaving and bid us farewell. Thats a formal resignation if I ever saw one.
By saying that no penalty worse than losing may be inccured, 113 says that losing is a valid punishment option. To me, this seems an instantaneous and the same as being kicked out.
I couldnt see why some one would want to continue after being declared a loser, or ineligable to win, but nothing says they cannot participate in play any longer.
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113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
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We could argue that he didn't forfeit, but eh.
Dropping all pretenses and speaking bluntly:
'rather than continue' - but it appears he does want to continue. It's not there as a means for you to oust someone from the game if they still want to play.
And don't give me that the line about how you're not trying to. I'm talking spirit of the law/action here, not the letter - but we can go back to arguing that if you'd prefer. I thought we had something of an agreement to be sensible and not cause a ruckus right now, though.
I mean, hell, if you want to break that, I could try breaking it too and we deadlock again. And none of us want that. I think. :)
Fine, In the intersts of keeping the game going I'll drop it on the condition that CasualSax agrees to the following:
Sax if you decide to remove yourself from the game in the future and you do not Recant your desire to leave within 24 hours of resignation, you forfiet your player status and stay out of the game until you are leagally elligable to re-apply for player status.
I recommend we get a rule in place with specifics on how to leave the game, too, so as there won't be confusion and fiasco potential in the future.
How about we simply except that people get emotional and make rash decisions? Yeah it was rash, and rather foolish, but that doesn't mean he should be excluded from the game just because he threw his hands up in despair and said, "That's it, I'm done with this nonsense!"
While I'm all for letting him play if he still wants to, I hope we won't have people popping in and out like this constantly. Please, either resign and leave, or stay and play. None of this, "I've had it! I'm leaving!" and then later, "Oops, changed my mind..." This game is currently confused enough already. :)
As to point penalties: I don't really see that one is necessary, but if you feel there needs to be one, how about subtracting a percentage of a player's score, rather than a set number of points? That way it would be a more level deterrent, and you might not have the "trading points for power" problem so much. In fact, now that I think of it, you could do something like, subtract X% of the player's score, or X number of points, whichever is greater. (for example, 50% or 100 pts, whichever is greater) That way neither the high scorers nor the low scorers have an advantage.