Recently took a step back to the past, this last weekend, reading books I haven't read for years, some Dragonlance, some old fanfics, and a bit of the Ender series by Orson Card. Now, admittingly, I enjoyed the whole thing a fair deal more when I was younger. Certain tidbits of the writing didn't leap out to my old critical eyes like they do now. But one thing sort of stuck with me a bit as it was something that a lot of writers have trouble with.
In his second book in the Ender quartet, he has this monumental time leap, some three thousand odd years. He comes up with a pretty reasonable explanation for how he keeps the same heroes still about and I give him kudos for it. He's aged them somewhat reasonably. Yet he left a bit of a problem. Folks are still talking about them, about their works and writings, about them as people, about the big war and such. They have emotion and caring regarding events of three thousand years prior, strong ones in fact.
Now, rather than simply saying obviously this is wrong, a thought exercise. Think about the biggest war you can remember, then the last five before it. Think about the guy who did the most heinous deeds out of the bunch in the oldest of those wars. Can't remember his name? What about the guy who did the best? If you can remember both, you're probably a fair student of history as it stands. Now, think about a war that happened a thousand years ago, name it, and name one of the most wicked participants. Hard task, no? Yet, this is the very traphole he, as well as many game writers, fall into. A thousand years ago, there was this war, yet people still remember and are greatly affected by the thoughts and history and heroes of it. Maybe it's five hundred sometimes... but even then, it has the same fixable problem.
Now, it might be noted in his case, he left a bit of an out in near biblical type writings mentioning them. This doesn't work well either. How many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one? Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity? Books teach facts for the most part, not the emotional ties to the events.
It's a common flaw in game stories and book ones, that's somewhat easily rectified. There's actually a really great source for balancing such gaps: Our own actual history. There's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally. It's possibly the best source for gearing the adaptability of people, but almost no one seems to draw on it. Got a war that you want still strongly in the minds of the people? Set it five to fifteen years ago and it'll work like a charm. Want something far in history but remembered? Figure out about two generations worth of years. That'd do it. In effect: The time gap that is used should be appropriate to the effect desired, not chosen first for niceness of length.
Dracos
Bleh. On second thought, I worded my last post funny, so I'm going to try again. In order to justify people feeling strongly about things that happened hundreds of years or more, you can always have something world shifting haven taken place.
Like the entire world turning into a desert or something.
I'm not even sure about that. The only things I can think of that folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations (and most the time, not even the latter). The events stop, for the most part, being directly discussed. Their effects may be mentioned, but a hundred years is 3-4 generations. It's saying "I feel strongly about what was going on when my great grandfather was a child, but are not happening now" which generally implies a pretty stagnant culture set. Two centuries is even more along that. It's a good eight generations about apart. That's usually lots of events and even wars.
Dracos
As bad as this makes me feel, I'm going to have to go and provide an example from FFX. Maybe something along the lines of Sin's rampaging across the world killing the population all the damn time would make people feel strongly about it. You can't necessarily ignore or grow apathetic to things like that.
Although now that I think about it, you always run the risk about the origins being made obscure because everyone is desperate to survive.
Oh, certainly, but sin isn't something in the past. There's no time gap there. It's an omnipresent being currently about.
For a timegap to exist you need something along the lines of:
"X00 years ago, this happened conclusively. Now, we talk about it, it becomes relevant, etc."
A rampaging beast, even an old one, is still a current event. A war going on today, even if it's lasted 50 years, is still a current event...
Of course, I'd still say in either case to draw from history. Particularly prolonged occupations. That's the best examples really to capture human response to prolonged warfare/monster attacks. Things such as open trust for strangers would likely get a bit slashed in drawing from such. I would say that's almost an inverse-time-gap. Rather than a gap between events, we have an event that does not end and thus should show longterm population effects.
Dracos
In the case of Dragonlance, though, isn't their history mostly forgotten by pretty much everyone already outside of 'there were gods, they got pissed, dropped a flaming mountain, and then left'?
It only became important again when 'oh shit, dragons!' happened.
Edit:
Add to that the fact that all the races on the planet didn't experience time in the same way and I could see an arguement for some of the passion expressed thusly. After all, two generations of elves is not the same as two generations of humans in that worldset.
Dragonlance was only mentioned because of the opening segue. It was not used as an example.
Dracos
Ah, well. . . >_>;
I do that since it is often a more relaxed opener than "THE TIME GAP IS THIS!"
Dracos
Dracos-
QuoteThe only things I can think of that folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations...
True, but when the exploits of the past become somewhat blown out of proportion, don't they BECOME legends, and ultimately religion?
As some point, you disconnect from the events of the past, especially when the society described in it is nothing like its current rendition. They become fairytales, and ultimately, in order to believe they really happened, you have to accept them by faith...
There really WAS a George Washington. You can take my word for it!
Dracos-
QuoteHow many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one? Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity?
True THEY may not be as important, but the more iconic figures like Jesus are debated almost daily. Some people argue he was a revolutionary or some kind of lunatic... (some say Mary Magdelene was his wife, and others say he was...)
For the world of Ender's Game, you have this war that affects the lives of everyone - a massive interplanetary war. For one man to bring that to a close, especially a young boy, is just monumental... almost biblical.
Such a hero is a hero for a world in dire need of someone honest to believe in (which is understandable, if you think about who really CAUSED that war to begin with).
Dracos-
QuoteThere's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally.
That's an issue now, but it wasn't that way a couple thousand years ago. Society today is constantly bombarded with new and more interesting things (mostly due to the spread of information). Back in the past, there wasn't much to do when your day was just Wake Up, Raise Barn, Farm, Eat, Sleep. For less advanced cultures, history is everything. This is where celebrations come in. Every year, Americans celebrate Independence Day, or Memorial Day, even if they don't always know what it stands for.
In simple terms: Heroes stay alive as long as the culture that celebrates him remembers him and continues to celebrate. If that means thousands of years, then so be it.
But then, that's why it's good to be a writer (/ historian...?).
You can make anything seem real...
-22
-------
"Thar' she blows...
Thar' she blows again...
That cursed white whale.
And I just can't forget..
What it felt like to have a leg."
- Moby Dick, Pop-Culture Edition
A question: are we talking about wars between nations here, or wars between typical forces of Light and Darkness, one of which is hell-bent on erasing the other from existence? I can see plain ol' fashioned wars growing murky with time, but if Satan punches a hole up through Hell in the middle of Rome, and Joe Pesci saves us by jamming a screwdriver in his neck, I could see that sticking in the public consciousness for some time.
Simple events* of epic proportions** stay with people. Of course, that's moot if we're not talking simple events or epic proportions, in which case I would agree that heroes stepping out of a millenia-spanning time bubble and being hailed as heroes would be a tad askew.
*taken to mean, "highly visible bad guys do evil things, highly visible good guys stop them".
**taken to mean, "events that involve the fate of every living thing in the world, and often the very world itself, both conceptually and as a physical object".
Quote from: "twentytwo"Dracos-
QuoteThe only things I can think of that folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations...
True, but when the exploits of the past become somewhat blown out of proportion, don't they BECOME legends, and ultimately religion?
As some point, you disconnect from the events of the past, especially when the society described in it is nothing like its current rendition. They become fairytales, and ultimately, in order to believe they really happened, you have to accept them by faith...
There really WAS a George Washington. You can take my word for it!
Yes, but they don't feel very strongly about it. It doesn't come up day to day. You don't walk past people talking about George Washington. You walk past them talking about 'recent current event' and possibly 'last couple big events' that are similar in pattern.
Do people have a conscious view on George Washington? Certainly. Do they discuss it with others? Generally not. Even though that was a country shaking event. (Founding even =P)
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Dracos-
QuoteHow many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one? Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity?
True THEY may not be as important, but the more iconic figures like Jesus are debated almost daily. Some people argue he was a revolutionary or some kind of lunatic... (some say Mary Magdelene was his wife, and others say he was...)
Outside of religious theorists and historians, I've yet to be involved or overhear folks talking in such a manner. For others, more recent things tend to take precedence in their consciousness and, unless specifically brought onto that subject, they generally don't spout their views on it.
Jesus, outside of religious quotage, doesn't really come up terribly often in everyday discussion. And even when his icon does. Mmm...
Admittingly, though, I wouldn't see anything wrong with instigating such a discussion on such a figure in a game world. I would see stuff wrong with just introducing it via casual talking.
Mmm, possibly not getting this across right. You're definitely on ball with iconism. But I think the propensity of that comes from him being kept as an icon of a living current thing (chrisitian religion). Similarly retained tales, such as the much younger King Arthur ones, don't get discussed in such a vein because they aren't attached to a living culture.
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For the world of Ender's Game, you have this war that affects the lives of everyone - a massive interplanetary war. For one man to bring that to a close, especially a young boy, is just monumental... almost biblical.
Such a hero is a hero for a world in dire need of someone honest to believe in (which is understandable, if you think about who really CAUSED that war to begin with).
not getting into this too much sincce it sounds like ye haven't read the sequel (he's remembered not as a hero, but as a villian, the murderous xenocide who wiped out another race leaving no trace remaining 3000 years ago...), but, in premise, that kind of character can survive in conscious discussion as long as it gets tied to a living culture I think. Something that maintains it.
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Dracos-
QuoteThere's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally.
That's an issue now, but it wasn't that way a couple thousand years ago. Society today is constantly bombarded with new and more interesting things (mostly due to the spread of information). Back in the past, there wasn't much to do when your day was just Wake Up, Raise Barn, Farm, Eat, Sleep. For less advanced cultures, history is everything. This is where celebrations come in. Every year, Americans celebrate Independence Day, or Memorial Day, even if they don't always know what it stands for.
I'm pretty sure you're off base here. Every culture that I'm aware of is littered with tiny wars, skirmishes, etc that go on almost perpetually for literally hundreds of years tracing backwards, even into when you are talking about. We aren't aware of them now because it's the most most people can do to be aware of a few large ones recently. Yes, it's quite possible that the time between events has reduced (And our awareness of new ones is heightened), but the whole deal with these things isn't a new one. Europe has literally hundreds of wars that it puts in the last thousand years or so, some lasting 20-40 years in a chunk. Africa is infamous for its tribal warfare that reputably is thousands of years old and only recently being replaced with strife between its tribes and white south africans. I could keep going easily enough.
I agree that more primitive cultures could have longer retention in direct consciousness, but I doubt it on a hundreds of years scale. I think by then it moves very simply into stories that are told for the lessons they teach, the history they teach, and/or the religious value they teach rather than any heat upon the nature of events.
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In simple terms: Heroes stay alive as long as the culture that celebrates him remembers him and continues to celebrate. If that means thousands of years, then so be it.
But then, that's why it's good to be a writer (/ historian...?).
You can make anything seem real...
Heh, my point really in referencing history is it does help keep it in scale. Rather than rely on simple 'x00 time passed...' and then still talk about the events, it's better to use a minimal time that fits it to discourage the feeling that this world is heavily static.
Dracos
Quote from: "Karlinn"A question: are we talking about wars between nations here, or wars between typical forces of Light and Darkness, one of which is hell-bent on erasing the other from existence? I can see plain ol' fashioned wars growing murky with time, but if Satan punches a hole up through Hell in the middle of Rome, and Joe Pesci saves us by jamming a screwdriver in his neck, I could see that sticking in the public consciousness for some time.
Simple events* of epic proportions** stay with people. Of course, that's moot if we're not talking simple events or epic proportions, in which case I would agree that heroes stepping out of a millenia-spanning time bubble and being hailed as heroes would be a tad askew.
*taken to mean, "highly visible bad guys do evil things, highly visible good guys stop them".
**taken to mean, "events that involve the fate of every living thing in the world, and often the very world itself, both conceptually and as a physical object".
Indeed.... and my thoughttrain scattered...all aboard...
Dracos
Distractable~
Joe Pesci for savior.
Joe Pesci has defeated my ranttrain with a screwdriver.
We will remember this for ages to come.
Dracos
Re: your original rant, it's not so difficult to imagine people still talking about it.
First, don't forget that Card doesn't ignore relativistic effects, and the great bulk of humanity has spread to the stars. So it's not as if for most people there has been 3000 since the event. In fact, for some people, it was 3000 years past, for others 2000, for some 500. Ender has some stopovers; perhaps some people may even have traveled for longer periods than Ender has, and for them, the event was also in their lifetime.
Second, they don't have to remember exactly what happened. Can you recite the story of Adam and Eve word for word? Probably not. Can you name the participants, and generally what they did wrong? Sure. So in Ender's religion, he wrote himself in a role that changed the course of two races. Add that to people who use relativity to travel to the future, and less informational entropy due to advanced record keeping techniques, and people should generally remember who was the "bad guy".
I was dissappointed that Card didn't show changes to society and their conception of what had happened during the war. In Antigone, the ancient play by Sopocles, Creon wouldn't have been considered a villian, but by our social standards of what is morally correct, he's a dastardly one. Taking that understanding into Card's universe, which doesn't involve humanity with uniform culture and 3000 years of social development possible on some of them, different planets would surely put a different spin on the religion. Using Eve from my Adam and Eve example: Eve has been shown as a temptress, the downfall of man, the saviour of man (who gave man the precious gift of knowledge, a symbol for and against woman's lib, etc... But in the later books, everyone uses Ender's name in the exact same way.
Dracos-
QuoteI would see stuff wrong with just introducing it via casual talking.
A:"Hey, how's it going today?"
B:"Not too bad, how about you?"
A:"Pretty good."
B:"So... What about that Jesus?"
See, it's a perfectly normal conversation...
Dracos-
Quotenot getting into this too much since it sounds like ye haven't read the sequel (he's remembered not as a hero, but as a villian, the murderous xenocide who wiped out another race leaving no trace remaining 3000 years ago...)
You're right there, but then again it does talk about it at the end of the first book.
But then again, a lot of people talk about Hitler or use him as some kind of reference, even in normal conversations. Such a villain ALSO counts as an icon worthy of everyday comparisons.
Then again, a person who kills out a whole planet of people would definitely be a very unique case, and thus would fall out of most of our generalities...
Dracos-
QuoteI'm pretty sure you're off base here. Every culture that I'm aware of is littered with tiny wars, skirmishes, etc that go on almost perpetually for literally hundreds of years tracing backwards, even into when you are talking about.
-22
...who should probubly stop living in RPG land...
Hitler is an icon largely due to his recentness. He's not sixty years out of date, and look, despite the horrificness of what he did, the overwhelming majority of discussion around him is farcical. Despite being one of the more ignoble genociders in current consciousness, associations with his history are more of a joke or casual insult. What about the villians in WW1? Bismark wasn't it? Or something else?
In all truthfulness, he's already been somewhat replaced by Saddam. Glance around the internet and you'll find far more discussions of Saddam within the last year or two then you will of Hitler. His only real reason that he's unlikely to have the lasting iconic use (even if 5-10 years is likely) is that someone else will likely take his place as that icon and he simply wasn't in charge of nearly as powerful a force, thus no feeling of heroism behind his defeat.
That said, I'm more feeling awkward on this on the note that I can't remember well enough proper GAMES for examples here =)
Dracoos
World War I is an excellent example of how information can be diluted over the years, especially when it's complicated to begin with (escalated Balkan conflicts, hooray!) Kaiser Wilhelm was the closest thing to a recognizable bad guy that war had, but that in itself is a huge grey area since Germany wasn't the only country motivated nationalism and aggressive self-interest - hell, that was half of Europe. You could just as easily throw some other president or PM on the fire there.
That's the thing about wars; they're typically not clear-cut good/bad conflicts. Stuff like the Revolutionary War, WW2... that's a lot easier to keep straight than WW1, or Korea, or most mideastern conflict.
You kill Satan, you get remembered. You kill a thousand bad guys sent from Satan, you get remembered. You kill a guy you call Satan... ehhh, not so much.
Edit: As for Hitler? Ah, internet memes come and go. You ask me, it's a form of catharsis. We'll never see a point where we read a history book, chuckle and go, "Oh, Hitler, you cad you!", but I can imagine it being less pervasive in the public consciousness - particularly a couple generations from now, when we're more distanced from it. Saddam's part of a more general tendency to poke fun at famous or infamous people, rather than de-fanging a monster.
That's my take on it, at least ^^
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Hitler is an icon largely due to his recentness. He's not sixty years out of date, and look, despite the horrificness of what he did, the overwhelming majority of discussion around him is farcical.
Emperor Nero. Religious oppressor, slaughtered thousands of Christians. Also well remembered, although not as recent as Hitler.
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Despite being one of the more ignoble genociders in current consciousness, associations with his history are more of a joke or casual insult. What about the villians in WW1? Bismark wasn't it? Or something else?
WW1, while a horrific war, didn't involve cold-blooded genocide. Bismark isn't commonly considered a villian. He wanted a greater German empire, yes. And Napoleon wanted a greater French empire too, but he's not considered a villian either. Things like torture of the innocent or slaughtering civilians on a six-digit scale is what gets you the kind of noteriety we're discussing.
Also, keep in mind the scale of casualties. For example, both sides of WW2 carpet bombed cities to hit one factory, killing millions. But Hitler killed
millions of civilians nowhere near the battles. And Ender may have killed trillions, if we consider that the aliens had occupied many worlds and star systems.
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In all truthfulness, he's already been somewhat replaced by Saddam.
Only because Iraq is still a current event. Wait six months after we leave Iraq, and see how many people are still talking about Saddam. In fact, wait two weeks after his trial ends, and see how many people are still talking about Saddam.
Since we're talking about villians, remember Carlos the Jackal? No? Don't worry; most people don't either. He was the flashiest terrorist of the 80s. A real media hound. I've been told that his capture took a decade of careful infiltration by one or more intelligence agencies. And a week after his capture, everyone forgot about him.
So no, I don't think Saddam will be forgotten because someone new comes along. I think he'll be forgotten because that's just how people are.