Redux has gone on a good while. Like anything that goes on for a long time, it needs upkeep and maintience in all it's parts. This includes the rules, so I'll clarify, elaborate, streamline and issue authoritative rulings in this topic. There have been some miscommunications, misinformations and mistakes made on my side and on the PC side, so I'll use this to shore it all up.
1. Base CV is Body+Mind+Soul/3, rounded down to the nearest whole number. For example, a total of 15 stat points total nets you a base CV of 5. So does a 16 or 17, despite being 5.333 or 5.666. There is another issue attached with this invovling Makoto, but I'll go into it later.
2. Continued senshi attacks can be continued from one round to the next under the following circumstances: The target(s) must be the same - you can't transfer a continued attack over to a new target; nor can the attack be disrupted by certain powers(PED and Cleave are the most salient examples.) This nets half EP consumption past the first round.
3. Rejuvenation does not draw an infinite font. While one or two rejuvs a day has no negative effect, excessive Rejuving can cause issues with soul and body burnout. This is entirely GM subjective in the case of a PC overdrawing on themself and abusing the trait. There isn't a hard and fast rule of how many you can get away with. This is an unwritten rule I'm writing down and making official. This probably won't come up. Probably.
The rule of stacking +2 mods to the soul check per Rejuv per day/encounter isn't carried over. If Rejuv becomes more broken I may impose it. I'm nicer on this skill than most - by the letter of the book it's only usable in crisises. Don't make me have to tighten up on it since it is quite useful.
4. Each dodge past the first nets a +1 to DCV, stacking for every dodge thereafter in that round. This one has been mentioned a few times but I'm repeating it while I'm at it.
5. Initiative is 1d6+ACV+Fast Reflexes mod+Any other modifier. IN the event of a tied initiative, the higher Fast Reflexes trait goes first. In the event that there is still a tie, whomever rolled higher to tie goes first. I'll admit I'm a bit loose on enforcing this when the tie is between purely PCs or allied NPCs; no huge point. I don't mind this there, since you're all on the same team and reasonable coordination and holding is a part of the game.
6. On thinking it over, I'm deciding to go with Game 1's 10/8 effective ACV/DCV cap. So I'll give a refresher; your maximum effective ACV value is 10, the maximum DCV is 8. Points over this can be used to negate penalties to ACV and DCV checks respectively; a 9 DCV is cut down to 8 but you can use that floating point to counteract a point of DCV mod from whatever means impose it. This does not effect the damage from ACV+ attacks or weapons, that uses your true ACV.
Certain abilities that add negative modifier bonuses to DCV instead of a boost to the raw number are tentatively safe. I'm going to review Usagi, Makoto and Ami's sheets(As well as the new ones, even if they're not close to it yet) and make sure we're all kosher. I'm not inclined to change these much, however. We'll see.
Note that certain special traits can allow these numbers to be broken. These are primarily the baddie ones that allow 'unbalanced' ACV and DCV. I won't go into this too much since these are usually used only by the GM.
7. No more than one reroll per dicing attempt. If you fail the check more than once you're out of luck. This is to balance the fact that rerolls are really that damn useful. Let's see how that does and see. I can add on more rules if it continues to get broken: For example, making you spend burnt EP twice over on rerolls or not allowing crit fails to be rerolled.
8. Regarding EC, I've been a little too inconsistent with rulings regarding this, especially invovling melee combat. So I'm going to redefine some ground rules for this to make it easier for all.
A. EC and an attack are two seperate and full round actions as a rule, with the following exceptions: Combining EC and a weapons attack: Makoto and Hotaru do this, and Rei probably should/has considered it; 'minor' EC for flavor text usage; when a circumstance makes the GM rule you need one for a previous effect. If you have more you'd like to bring up say so, I may very well be forgetting one.
B. EC damage is EC levelx5 then + your ACV level if an ACV check is ruled to be needed for that EC application. This balances out having to make two checks, but does not allow you stack ACV twice if the attack already includes it.
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Example!
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Little deviant Rei-chan coats her arm in fire and tries to use it to burn someone! This requires a melee attack instead of most 'raw' EC effects that are just soul checks. Since she had to make ACV she adds her ACV to the damage. Let's say her EC level is 2 and her ACV is 6! 2x5+6=16 damage.
Alternately, this means for 'pure' EC applications I'm going to only require soul checks and not ACV. Summoning lighting to strike your foe out of the blue is just a soul check. This is to compensate for the above and cut down on raw dicing. Note that a critical on the soul check still gets a 1d6 damage roll for critical damage.
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Example!
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Little loligoth Hotaru summons a wave of cutting destruction energy to tear apart a target! She makes her Soul check and that's it on her end. ...oh, short example, okay!
Regarding DCV on attack EC applications? As a rule these won't get any mod to the opponents DCV check. That's the province of Senshi attacks and I don't want EC to infringe on those. Certain circumstances may allow a modification if it makes sense (Aiming lighting at a waterbound foe, for example.), but I'll want a solid reasoning. EDIT - Hotaru brought this up. Taking multiple rounds in combat to set something impressive up EC wise is a good way to sweet talk me into a mod. Makes sense if you're willing to spend more than one round making a nasty trick.
This applies to raw damage or directly offensive(GM's judgment) EC attacks. The rule of thumb for distinguishing is if the attack is melee or in some other way directly needing intervention of the Sailor's attack skills and thus worth of getting another roll and adding ACV to it's damage.
C. 'Minor' EC affects are bits of elemental control used for added on stylistic affect on attacks, but that have no gameplay impact. Mako crackling with electricity when she attacks or Rei's eyes turning into fire when she's angry are prime examples. As long as they have no impact other than to sell RPing aspect these are fine and take no EP, nor do the consume an action. They're purely meant to be fun embellishments and nothing more.
D. EC actions+unrelated attack. This is something I want to clarify and probably start cracking down on. I'm nice about this and I'll usually give someone rope to hang themself with, so to speak. What I don't want to see is two distinct actions via EC and an unrelated attack, or a distinctly advantageous defensive advantage as well as making an offensive action of note. By all means as if you have questions on this one, since I need to review my notes and get some example to rule on.
E. EC invocations that don't require a roll. I've given a few of these out. Would you please list the ones you have so I can review them? I'm inclined to grandfather any of these as most are reasonable, but I want to make sure. Remember how I went on about making set EC applications? I want to tie those into it stronger and make them listed on your sheets for organization. This is as much double checking as anything else.
F. EC invocations with weapons/special circumstances/named non Senshi attacks. I'd like to review these as well. Hot-chan compiled some already and I'd like to review these as well. If you would post what you did, Hotaru, and if the others would add in any others they feel apply?
G. Non attack/directly offensive EC applications. I'm going to give these a quick once over but they aren't likely to radically change. They aren't province to a lot of the rules above and I'll let you know if I feel any need to change. I'm not anticipating any changes unless we have an outlier that is clearly out of wack with the norm for no good reason.
9. KEEP YOUR SHEETS UP TO DATE. When you learn a new EC application of note, gain a new skill or have something noteworthy, edit your SR sheet up to date. I'm really getting tired of seeing an SR sheet a month or two behind the times. This doesn't apply to NPC bios unless it's a pretty damn big event that would warrant an immediate change or edit. If something if flagrantly missing and a mistake is made on my end due to it being absent, I'm going to blame you for it. I don't want to, but I'm really, really tired of non updated sheets.
10. On a related note, I highly recommend everyone making and posting a cheat sheet to their character sheet. Kotono has a short one for a model, as does Ami-chan. I find these -immensly- useful on the fly for both my own PCs or in t he case I need to do something with an NPC'ed PC.
11. Focused Combat: I found out recently I've been badly erratic with it. For example, Kotono gets ACV and DCV from it, while Hotaru only gets ACV. My fault here, I made a sincere mistake and made things a giant tangle. I'll offer you girls an option - I can grandfather all versions and make any new levels of it apply in a consistent way or change it all to a consistent ruling. For anyone with focused combat, would you post how you apply it, and how either of the following two would change your ACV/DCV:
If it affects both ACV and DCV, or if it only affects ACV. Thanks. We'll see how it balances out and I'll tweak as needed after that.
12. Agility can give a bonus to DCV if you have room to move. This is usually at least the size of a large room if not more - I'm going to start paying attention to this. As a rule being outdoors or in free quarters is enough to apply. However, if you use the bonus for agility, I'm going to try to invoke it in descriptions for dodges more and make things even more fluid.
13. Teleportation, as learned by the majority of girls, is a full round action. It's not really viable or practical EP or speedwise to use it to compliment an attack. Neph has a bit more flexibilty there, and it's a good direction to consider developing your TP if you're interested in it. A good points sink, since I know Makoto was considering some stunts like that.
Alpha: As I mentioned way back above, there's a bit of an issue with Makoto and CV. For a long time due to a mistake she has been calculating her CV by rounding up. I'm not sure if I made the mistake or if she did, it's just been too long to root it out and I'm honestly not interested in finding out. This does leave us in a situation and one I'm pondering. I could just bap her down a CV, I suppose, but I could understand her being ticked over it. So I had Usa-chan compile some CV numbers for me. I'll add those in an appendix post.
I haven't made up my mind on this point yet;I'm going to review the numbers and sleep on them. I'll make up my mind in the morrow.
I'm going to review your sheet and balance and post back to this. Feel free to chime in here since I'm still making up my mind.
I think that's good for now. I have more once I do some more homework and talk to each of you. Comments, follow ups, requests for further clarification or suggests are all welcome.
QuoteUsagi Tsukino (Sailor Moon)
Civilian Form
ACV: 8
DCV: 6
Base of 7. Usagi has 1 level of Combat Mastery.
Transformed
ACV: 9
DCV: 7
Usagi gains +1 to her CV as Sailor Moon
Ideal Circumstances
ACV: 9 or 10 or -
DCV: 8 or -- or 9
Transformed and with a lot of room to maneuver, Usagi can defend more effectively thanks to Agility.
At any time, Usagi can boost her ACV or DCV by +1 point during an acrobatic maneuver by forfeiting the ability to use the other stat at all.
Ami Mizuno (Sailor Mercury)
Civilian and Transformed
ACV: 8
DCV: 6
Base of 7. Ami has 1 level of Combat Mastery. She gains no special bonuses for transforming.
Ideal Circumstances
ACV: 9
DCV: 6
Winter Guard gives Ami +1 ACV. It is not stated whether this applies only to all attacks made with it, or is a blanket effect for possessing the artifact.
Note Ami also recieves -2 to her ACV checks when using Shabon Spray.
Hotaru Tomoe (Sailor Saturn)
Civilian Form
ACV: 7
DCV: 5
Base of 6. Hotaru has 1 level of Combat Mastery.
Transformed
ACV: 8
DCV: 6
Hotaru's base increases to 7 when transformed.
Ideal Circumstances
ACV: 10
DCV: 7
When using the Silence Glaive, Hotaru's focused combat increases her overall CV by +1, and the glaive itself confers a +1 to ACV. This only applies to melee combat.
Note Hotaru also recieves -5 to her ACV checks when using Saturn Crisis Thrust. -6 if she uses the Glaive.
Makoto Kino (Sailor Jupiter)
Civilian Form and Transformed
ACV: 8
DCV: 7
Base of 7. Makoto has 1 level of Combat Mastery. Danger Sense confers a blanket +1 to DCV.
Ideal Circumstances
ACV: 9
DCV: 8
Using the Sword of Thunderclaps either in melee or during the Jupiter Thunderclap Slash attack, Makoto gains +1 to her ACV. She also gains +1 to her DCV when she has room to maneuver thanks to Agility.
QuoteE. EC invocations that don't require a roll. I've given a few of these out. Would you please list the ones you have so I can review them? I'm inclined to grandfather any of these as most are reasonable, but I want to make sure. Remember how I went on about making set EC applications? I want to tie those into it stronger and make them listed on your sheets for organization. This is as much double checking as anything else.
Makoto's tazer fists (which do ACVx2) havent' required a roll in ages. I think I've been getting away with minor cutting powers using my fingers without a roll, but that's all I'm aware of.
QuoteF. EC invocations with weapons/special circumstances/named non Senshi attacks. I'd like to review these as well. Hot-chan compiled some already and I'd like to review these as well. If you would post what you did, Hotaru, and if the others would add in any others they feel apply?
Quoted from Takeshi's sheet:
"Stone Fists - Takeshi has the ability to transform his flesh into stone. While this has no practical effect on damage done to him, his fists and arms take on the qualities of stone clubs and act as simple weapons, doing ACVx2 damage. This skill requires 5 EP to activate and nothing to maintain. "
Quoted from my sheet:
"Destruction Slash - Infusing her own energy into the glaive, Hotaru's polearm unleashes destructive energy into its already grevious wounds. Costs 15 EP, it does (Glaive damage) + (EC level x 5) damage, and requires both a Soul check and ACV check. " [Note: This one needs a little modding, as I came across the glaive's EC amplifier and finally connected the dots here, dur]
Those are the two I'm immediately aware of that haven't been mentioned elsewhere. Mako-chan's got a few outright attacks that fit the descriptor, but they're outright attacks.
Quote11. Focused Combat: I found out recently I've been badly erratic with it. For example, Kotono gets ACV and DCV from it, while Hotaru only gets ACV. My fault here, I made a sincere mistake and made things a giant tangle. I'll offer you girls an option - I can grandfather all versions and make any new levels of it apply in a consistent way or change it all to a consistent ruling. For anyone with focused combat, would you post how you apply it, and how either of the following two would change your ACV/DCV:
If it affects both ACV and DCV, or if it only affects ACV. Thanks. We'll see how it balances out and I'll tweak as needed after that.
Yeah, I've consistently been told (by about three people >_>) it's ACV only. I'd rather set all FC to be both ACV and DCV. *Shrugs*
Other Shit:
QuoteI haven't made up my mind on this point yet;I'm going to review the numbers and sleep on them. I'll make up my mind in the morrow.
Yeah, I fielded this: Mod Danger Sense to only apply to surprise rounds for a DCV bonus, and add a level of combat mastery, Mako-chan's our fighter, she deserves it, and doesn't have the big boom tricks Usa or I do.
I'd move for FC counting only for towards ACV. I've been calculating it for ACV/DCV, but frankly, in a practical sense FC is almost always going to apply as an effective point in Combat Mastery in situations where it really matters. That makes it basically a cheaper version of CM. Is this elegant? Not really. Making it ACV only will make its role more clearly defined; plus, frankly, DCV bonuses should be brought to as much of a minimum as possible. (It also makes granting Focused Combat a lot more reasonable than more levels of Combat Mastery, which is a flat CV boost and pretty damn strong.)
Same goes for the other things, like Agility bonuses. These should be DCV bonuses, and not modifiers, as to hit the cap properly and not affect the DCV roll itself and basically emulate a DCV score that's higher than the cap. They still count towards the bonus of beating DCV modifiers on the incoming attack, just not for the roll itself. Same for Danger Sense, etc.
Finally a remark about Rejuv. The way it's written in the sourcebook, and generally overall really angles the ability towards a crisis-level usage, not an instant battery perk-up ability... I'm much more inclined to lean towards this way of thinking. Greater leniency, sure, but definitely some kind of heavy restriction imposed on repeated uses (i.e. more than once a day). Reading over game 1 logs has given me a reminder of the heavy-ass penalties and defects that Usagi had to take for repeated Rejuv uses in certain situations, and those were pretty accurately played out for burnout effects and such. Something similar to that would sound about right.
Oooh, in no particular order...
Focused Combat.
I think this should be broken down into 4 seperate variants, rather than having really esoteric things like 'focused combat - zero gravity' or what have you. Basically I envision this:
Focused Combat (Offense) : +1 to ACV under all circumstances
Focused Combat (Defence) : +1 to DCV under all circumstances
Focused Combat (Melee) : +1 to ACV when attacking in melee, +1 to DCV when defending against melee attacks
Focused Combat (Ranged) : +1 to ACV when attacking with projectiles/beams, +1 to DCV when defending against same
I feel this balances a 1 point ability with the 2 point Combat Mastery - taking both of the first or second pair there basically means an overall +1 to CV, which fits for costing the same as just getting combat mastery.
Capping ACV/DCV
I've no objection, since I doubt anyone's going to get their base that high anyway. Like Laggy said, any mods like Agility or Focused combat should alter your base amount, taking the cap into account, rather than giving a -X to the roll which could let you for example roll a 9 on DCV and still pass.
The only exception I'd request is for Acrobatics to still count as a modifier to temporarily break the cap - it's very restricted in that you have to sacrifice your other action, so I feel it balances fairly for when you really don't want to get hit.
Freebie Combat Mastery for Makoto
I'm not thrilled with this at all, to be honest. Makoto's already built on more points than anyone else, so giving her a freebie as a reward for making a mistake does rankle.
Rejuvenation
I'd like to see this put more in the 'use in a crisis' field rather than as a general perk up whenever wanted, that said, when actually in a crisis, it should be fairly easy to use.
Perhaps my perception is skewed from doing lots of omakes where I have to take on a huge HP enemy all by myself, but I do frequently have to rejuve more than once during bigger battles. Of course, I don't have to rejuve much at all to take care of mooks, which kinda fits since that's not really a crisis, is it?
Basically I guess it should work as - no restrictions when in actual combat or immediately prior to (like when the villian is grandstanding and you have no doubts things are about to get hectic), but give penalties to use it under any other circumstances (it can't be banned entirely since that'd be a messy retcon) of varying severity depending on the intensity of the situation.
Zuh.
Eb's suggestions for Focused Combat actually make a good deal amount of sense to me. The categories (offense, defense, melee, ranged) are far more liable for actually making a player consider which one to pick - as opposed to the current Focused Combat which is just basically "stick it on the weapon you use the most often". The varying effects also give it more value than just a flat boost somewhere to compensate. Definitely a nod of approval on that, something I would recommend changing FC to as well.
I agree with Acrobatics being allowed the exception as a modifier as well, given its inherantly limited usage. Makes sense.
CM for Makoto... um. Again, haven't seen enough battles to comment precisely, but she's 9/8 right now transformed, and already has 1 level in it. IOWs, she's hit the DCV cap and is only 1 point away from hitting the ACV cap.
A few other people (particularly Hotaru) are also similarly near the cap, but in Hotaru's case it's only for the Glaive and that's taking into account a Focused Combat which assumes a flat +1 CV. So right now Makoto is quite clearly top tier in terms of ACV/DCV. I'd waffle on that.
I haven't seen much of Rejuvenation actually in action for game 2 yet, but while I reiterate and agree about it being more suited for crisis-level situations, successive uses (past the first) should still carry -some- kind of requirement or penalty, whether it be that Soul check, perhaps accessible at low health, or whatnot. Or just flat out GM approval as to whether it's viable, which I think is what Dune is really trying to say - use it reasonably and he doesn't have to tighten down on it. But getting a general idea as to when it's a good idea to use Rejuv and when it's not, and how often, would be ideal, just to get a ballpark figure.
Quote from: "Asrana"Makoto's tazer fists (which do ACVx2) havent' required a roll in ages. I think I've been getting away with minor cutting powers using my fingers without a roll, but that's all I'm aware of.
Those are fine. Takeshi will probably want to practice that and pick upt hat trick himself. Considering his ACVx2 fists are his main weapon, I don't blame him.
I'll get to the Glaive Slash and stuff later.
QuoteYeah, I've consistently been told (by about three people >_>) it's ACV only. I'd rather set all FC to be both ACV and DCV. *Shrugs*
Okay. Noted pending other posts. Sorry about that.
Re: Focused Combat.
I admit I like Usagi's idea as well. That makes sense and allows for variety whiel toning down FC in a sane way. I think we'll go with that.
IF YOU HAVE FOCUSED COMBATI'll let you choose whatever application of FC you like and convert over for free. Is only fair, after all. Also, feel free to suggest any other likewise categories if you have a good one. Post and let me know what you're converting to when you're good; I'll note it for Kotono when I decide. Also, Usagi, could you redraw the CV spreads without counting any focused combats and include Kotono in your math? Thanks.
QuoteThe only exception I'd request is for Acrobatics to still count as a modifier to temporarily break the cap - it's very restricted in that you have to sacrifice your other action, so I feel it balances fairly for when you really don't want to get hit.
If I let anything break it it'll be unique abilities - Acrobatics in this case, or Danger Sense in the way Hotaru proposed. Lemme see how everything else shakes out before getting to this.
QuoteMako stuff
True. On the other hand it's a long standing miscommuncation that I honestly don't know where it came from. A level of FC could be substituted or some other compromise. I'd rather try to reasonably deflate it than depower someone from a norm we've used for ages, rightly or wrongly.
I'll wait for Mako to clarify how she feels about it to me and we'll be good to go.
Re: Rejuv.
I'm not going to mess with it quite yet. We'll give it a run to see how it does now, so as long as it's not overused or abused I won't impose penalties.
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I'm going to disagree heavily on the rejuve stuff. Why? Because our Rejuve scores don't particularly reflect the EP burn those that go through it (okay, me) and need it have to do.
I have Rejuve 2. 20 ep per Rejuve, out of a pool of 155 I'm expected to work from. If I had Rejuve 5, it'd be a LOT easier to be less abusive of it, but when one of my primary methods of being an effective senshi involves multiple +4 checks and I'm pulling 20 ep downrange every pull? No thanks. When everything goes down the drain (Gaia, yay), I STILL spend large amounts of downtime simply recovering because of it, I'm not relishing the idea of adding to how much time I have to spend not doing magic.
Quote from: "Asrana"I'm going to disagree heavily on the rejuve stuff. Why? Because our Rejuve scores don't particularly reflect the EP burn those that go through it (okay, me) and need it have to do.
I have Rejuve 2. 20 ep per Rejuve, out of a pool of 155 I'm expected to work from. If I had Rejuve 5, it'd be a LOT easier to be less abusive of it, but when one of my primary methods of being an effective senshi involves multiple +4 checks and I'm pulling 20 ep downrange every pull? No thanks. When everything goes down the drain (Gaia, yay), I STILL spend large amounts of downtime simply recovering because of it, I'm not relishing the idea of adding to how much time I have to spend not doing magic.
I'm not going to get into this one myself now since I made my current ruling and intend to stick with it. Feel free to continue this debate as you guys want amid yourselves, but keep it civll.
QuoteCM for Makoto... um. Again, haven't seen enough battles to comment precisely, but she's 9/8 right now transformed, and already has 1 level in it. IOWs, she's hit the DCV cap and is only 1 point away from hitting the ACV cap.
Please, actually read the suggestion for giving her CM. >_> She'd come down a point from the DCV cap, which has been hit by Usagi, and would only break it under GM controlled situations. She's also got the most fighting experience amongst us all, both training and real.
We've worked with her as a 10 for ages, haven't we? That's been how it's all been balanced--the two major front liners are 10s, if barely. She'd still only be 10 in melee, much as I'm a 10 in melee.
Furthermore, on a much more general note, if she HADN'T had a 10 in Arc 1...would it have stayed there? I find it doubtful considering how Hotaru got boosted. I'm front line, but not as close up and personal front line as Makoto. If I was brought up to a 10, it's basically logical that she would, too.
Dune's suggestion for FC (offense) in lieu of CM seems to be fair enough, fixing the ACV issue while leaving the rest sane. In general, I feel, no one should be hitting both caps, and going over, while reduced in effect, is still noteworthy.
As for Rejuv... uh, actually, yes, I would agree that Rejuv 2 is pretty insufficient for those means. If Rejuvenation was actually going to be more crisis-exclusive (as the flavor text for it suggests - it literally being that dramatic boost of energy or vigor so often described in anime) then I'd much prefer a high level of Rejuv (4-5) which can then be acted out of those situations, rather than a low level one being spammed over and over. It reduces these abilities to D&D-esque math efficient uses (how many times can I use this per day?), which really is not the goal of BESM or the SM RP at all.
In short, if Rejuvenation were to be angled towards the view that Eb and I have towards it, then I'd also expect a rise in its level. Again with the stipulation that multiple uses carry some kind of requirement or risk, given you're now getting a lot more out of it. It makes for much better flavor in RP than counting the hours and dropping 10-30 EP on yourself to get by.
EDIT: Oh, and also my thumbs up on Hotaru's suggestion for Danger Sense. +1 DCV on surprise rounds? That makes a heck of a lot more sense than a flat +1 DCV anytime, snugly fits in with the flavor, and is balanced.
Quote from: "Asrana"Furthermore, on a much more general note, if she HADN'T had a 10 in Arc 1...would it have stayed there? I find it doubtful considering how Hotaru got boosted. I'm front line, but not as close up and personal front line as Makoto. If I was brought up to a 10, it's basically logical that she would, too.
Maybe she would, but it would have come at the expense of something else. While we stopped using character points after chargen and just basically started being given stuff as and when Ana saw fit, if you ever go and calculate how many points have gone into a character, you'll see that Makoto is clearly the most expensive. Giving her yet another boost on top of all she already has just doesn't seem fair at all.
I'll note that some of the custom abilities are somewhat subjective point wise. I'd have to go do it myself to vouch or refute that point, Usa, so I'll go do so now.
EDIT - Or post yours, Usa, and I can critique that.
Here's my math for Makoto, Hotaru, and myself. Feel free to critique it.
Makoto
Base attributes
47
(counting damage reduction as a 2 point ability. Teleportation and Flight counted as 2 points each)
Senshi attributes
55
(counting leaping as a 1 point ability and energy deflection as 2 point ability. 1 point for all senshi attacks except highest. Elemental affinity is considered 2 points)
Defects
3 Bonus Points
Usagi
Base attributes
44
(Teleport counts as 3 points)
Senshi attributes
56
(counting mass rejuve as 2 point ability and negative energy deflection as 2 point ability. 1 point for boosted agility and 2 points for boosted CV. Not counting Silver Crystal.)
Defects
2 Bonus Points
Hotaru
Base attributes
48
(counting healing as 1 point ability. Superior reality manipulation counts as 2 points.)
Senshi attributes
46
(counting Crisis Thrust as level 4 attack. 1 point for boosted body. Silence Wall counted 1 point per level)
Defects
5 Bonus points
Usa - 1 point in evil sensing. Another point for improved TP. The Crystal is...meh. I won't count it directly for the moment but I'll bear it in mind for overall weight. It's probably an item of power of at -least- level 6, but using it is so limited that this restrains it.
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I won't count magic visions since it's universal. Plus Hotaru's void stuff isn't really categorized effectively yet. What does that make the totals look like, bunny?
Now that the post has been edited? Mako's slightly ahead in non senshi traits and Usagi's slightly ahead in Sailor traits. Counting in the Silver Crystal I think that balances well between them.
Hotaru's a bit behind but some of her stuff still needs to be finished/padded out/Junned. Could you do Kot-chan and Ami-chan really quick, too?
Oh, and I forgot. Tack on another two points to Hotaru for good evil sensing in general, even if it's somewhat overlapped now.
QuoteEDIT: Oh, and also my thumbs up on Hotaru's suggestion for Danger Sense. +1 DCV on surprise rounds? That makes a heck of a lot more sense than a flat +1 DCV anytime, snugly fits in with the flavor, and is balanced.
I made this suggestion tied together with CM as a balancing act, I don't really see them as separate.
Mako's issue is resolved.
I forgot I made a stupid ruling with 'half a point in CM'. To be fair, so did Mako, so we're just converting it into FC Offense. My apologies to everyone for this over me being a 'tard.
Quote from: "Asrana"QuoteEDIT: Oh, and also my thumbs up on Hotaru's suggestion for Danger Sense. +1 DCV on surprise rounds? That makes a heck of a lot more sense than a flat +1 DCV anytime, snugly fits in with the flavor, and is balanced.
I made this suggestion tied together with CM as a balancing act, I don't really see them as separate.
I'll figure out Danger Sense tonight now that the paradigm has slightly altered.
Makoto
Base attributes
48
(counting damage reduction as a 2 point ability. Teleportation and Flight counted as 2 points each)
Senshi attributes
55
(counting leaping as a 1 point ability and energy deflection as 2 point ability. 1 point for all senshi attacks except highest. Elemental affinity is considered 2 points)
Defects
3 Bonus Points
Usagi
Base attributes
44
(Evil Sense as 1 point, Teleportation as 3)
Senshi attributes
56
(counting mass rejuve as 2 point ability and negative energy deflection as 2 point ability. 1 point for boosted agility and 2 points for boosted CV. Not counting Silver Crystal.)
Defects
2 Bonus Points
Hotaru
Base attributes
48
(counting healing as 1 point ability. Superior reality manipulation counts as 2 points.)
Senshi attributes
46
(counting Crisis Thrust as level 4 attack. 1 point for boosted body. Silence Wall counted 1 point per level)
Defects
5 Bonus points
Ami
Base attributes
38
(counting Coordinator and Mind over Soul as 1 point each, Teleport as 1 point)
Senshi attributes
47
(counting elemental alignment as 2 points and heightened senses as 1 point)
Defects
3 Bonus Points
(Could give her 4 if her weakness to fire counts)
Kotono
Base attributes
35
Senshi attributes
41
Defects
3 Bonus Points
Since this came up in channel, I'll ask it here: How does Focused Combat affect initiative, now?
That's a good point. You can declare that you're using FC that round, but if you change your mind come action you'll drop down in the initiative order and have to wait. Seems simplest.
Another question. FC's ACV bonuses (for melee and ranged) obviously apply only when you're doing an attack of that nature. But what about the DCV bonus? Do you get it if you've made a melee attack with FC (Offense) that round (so basically +1 CV if you're attacking melee), or if you are the target of a melee attack (from an enemy)? To me, the latter makes more sense, but this is a bit unclear.
Quote from: "Laggy"Another question. FC's ACV bonuses (for melee and ranged) obviously apply only when you're doing an attack of that nature. But what about the DCV bonus? Do you get it if you've made a melee attack with FC (Offense) that round (so basically +1 CV if you're attacking melee), or if you are the target of a melee attack (from an enemy)? To me, the latter makes more sense, but this is a bit unclear.
The way I wrote it in my suggestion was that anyone with FC (Ranged) gets an ACV boost for attacking at range, and a DCV boost for defending, at range - irrelevant of what kind of attack they're doing themselves.
This makes far more sense than having someone get attacked first thing in the round, failing their dodge by one, and then suddenly announcing "Wait, I'm going to be using a ranged attack on my turn, so that means its a dodge!"
On the other hand, FC (Offense) will never increase your DCV, since it's a blanket ACV boost and nothing else.
QuoteThe way I wrote it in my suggestion was that anyone with FC (Ranged) gets an ACV boost for attacking at range, and a DCV boost for defending, at range - irrelevant of what kind of attack they're doing themselves.
Mild objection, here. Adding a DCV to a ranged FC seems like unnecessary twinking. Ranged attacks already have inherent weakness in that all the DCV mods already apply. Agility and Acrobatics and pretty much any possible DCV advantage I can think of apply to ranged attacks, because you can see them incoming, and have time to try and dodge. (Apologies if I've missed the original suggestion somewhere, this is the first I've seen of this definition.)
To my view, FC (Ranged) should function like FC (Offense), only a more specialized variety. Essentially, it'd be declaring yourself a sharpshooter.
Melee is the only FC I think that should really apply to both ACV and DCV because it's a function of offense and Defense.
As a follow up, my esteemed collegue has pointed out that removing DCV from FC (Ranged) Neuters it's effectiveness as a seperate category, and the point is well made.
Maybe, instead of a DCV mod that's ridiculously stackable, a level of Damage reduction versus ranged attacks? It'd definitely go well with our cannons.
Quote from: "Bean Bandit"As a follow up, my esteemed collegue has pointed out that removing DCV from FC (Ranged) Neuters it's effectiveness as a seperate category, and the point is well made.
Maybe, instead of a DCV mod that's ridiculously stackable, a level of Damage reduction versus ranged attacks? It'd definitely go well with our cannons.
I think damage reduction is an unnecessary complication, and doesn't really fit balance-wise or thematically.
I get what you say about ranged attacks generally being superior, but there's no rule that says they
have to be. A character could easily get a special melee attack that equals anyone else's special ranged attacks - Asher seems to be going down the route of having all his big guns be melee attacks, for example. Not to mention the majority of the villians this arc seem to be melee heavy hitters.
In terms of game balance, the 4 Focused Combat options provided fit perfectly. Offense/Defence provide a blanket boost to ACV or DCV under all circumstances, and taking both is the same as taking Combat Mastery (costs 2 points as well). Ranged/Melee provide specialised bonuses to ACV and DCV under certain situations, but if you take both it covers
all situations - again balancing with a level of Combat Mastery.
Thematically, I see it in the following terms:
Focused Combat (Offense) - The character has a 'killer instinct' and an inherent knack for attacking at the expense of anything else. They have just an extra edge at inflicting damage beyond what their basic combat abilities dictate.
Focused Combat (Defence) - The character has a near sixth sense for predicting when they're about to hit and are able to react instantly to avoid harm. They just have an extra edge at avoiding harm beyond what their basic combat abilities dictate.
Focused Combat (Ranged) - The character is skilled at leading their target to hit them at a distance, and also has a knack for keeping their head down to avoid reprisals at range. But these specialised maneuvers are of no use when an enemy gets right in their face to attack.
Focused Combat (Melee) - The character is skilled at reading the movements of their foe in order to place their own blows more effectively, and also to react and defend against physical reprisals. But these specialised maneuvers are of no use against an attack coming from a distance.
As an aside, from what I've seen, Agility tends to be used just as much in melee combat as with ranged attacks - it's dependant on having room to move around, whether you're trading blows or circling around and blasting each other.
Quote
As an aside, from what I've seen, Agility tends to be used just as much in melee combat as with ranged attacks - it's dependant on having room to move around, whether you're trading blows or circling around and blasting each other.
It is. Melee vs ranged combat isn't an issue with agility, as most fights in this system are very focused on rapid movement and evasion. I've always been inclined to give the benefit of the doubt here.
QuoteMaybe, instead of a DCV mod that's ridiculously stackable, a level of Damage reduction versus ranged attacks? It'd definitely go well with our cannons.
Heh, that's tempting and quite interestingly stackable. But I think I agree with Usagi on this - it's overly complicating, and it feels more like a stacking seperate trait(1 point for damage reduction in a certain situation) than a logical condition of focused combat.
Focused Combat (Ranged) - The character is skilled at leading their target to hit them at a distance, and also has a knack for keeping their head down to avoid reprisals at range. But these specialised maneuvers are of no use when an enemy gets right in their face to attack. On reading it, this makes sense. Usagi and Kotono both focus purely on magical attacks, and it's logical that they're gonna be in a bind if they're forced into hand to hand.
---
This also ties into a personal GMing preference - I don't mind good DCVs on most girls as long as it hurts when it hits. Nior, Makoto and Takeshi are very notable exceptions to this, having defense above and beyond any reasonable call of duty. I'm not so hasty to hand out Damage Reduction to others lightly. Takeshi is damn near made of stone, MAkoto got the piss beaten out of her for weeks on end, and Nior is Nior.[/i]
PS - Kotono officially went with Focused Combat: Ranged.
I may retweak a few baddied in this arc to use these new focused combats.
Any last questions here before I close this?
1. EC+melee attacks. There was discussion about if the entire attack fails if you blow your soul check. The argument was that it shouldn't since the soul is just for the extra elemental punch. Thoughts?
2. On the rebalancing front, I think I'm going to increase Starlight Breaker's EP consumption to 50. It's a very strong attack, doubly so with it's charging damage and a +4 to DCV. Ten more EP feels more in line with it's relative power level. Thoughts?
Starlight Breaker is a nerfed level 4 attack, so going by the book, 40 EP could be said to be too much (should be 90 + ACV damage and a +4 DCV penalty for that much).
That said, we do have a fairly unique scaling in game, so I'm not sure if comparisons to the book are all that valid. It's to be expected that I defend my own powers, mind you.
Still, I don't see that charging is that big an issue. Admittedly it is a considerable saving of EP depending on how long I charge it for, but the risk of it all being for nothing if I'm hit while charging or miss, compared with the more consistent damage of just blasting for 70 + ACV every round seems fair to me.
Comparing it with other senshi, Makoto generally does 70+ damage with Thunderclap Slash for 30 EP, although it lacks a DCV penalty but does have an ACV bonus. Hotaru can either do just under 70 with Ruin Eruption for 45 EP - only has a +1 DCV penalty but also reduces the target's DCV by 2 for the rest of the battle, or use Crisis Thrust for all sorts of brokeness if she's sufficiently hurt.
Here ends my impassioned defence of my coolest attack.
Quote from: "Ebiris"Starlight Breaker is a nerfed level 4 attack, so going by the book, 40 EP could be said to be too much (should be 90 + ACV damage and a +4 DCV penalty for that much).
That said, we do have a fairly unique scaling in game, so I'm not sure if comparisons to the book are all that valid. It's to be expected that I defend my own powers, mind you.
Yeah, book stuff with a small grain of salt due to our own balancing. That said, I agree and I'm glad you stick up for yourself. Nothin' wrong with that.
QuoteStill, I don't see that charging is that big an issue. Admittedly it is a considerable saving of EP depending on how long I charge it for, but the risk of it all being for nothing if I'm hit while charging or miss, compared with the more consistent damage of just blasting for 70 + ACV every round seems fair to me.
Comparing it with other senshi, Makoto generally does 70+ damage with Thunderclap Slash for 30 EP, although it lacks a DCV penalty but does have an ACV bonus. Hotaru can either do just under 70 with Ruin Eruption for 45 EP - only has a +1 DCV penalty but also reduces the target's DCV by 2 for the rest of the battle, or use Crisis Thrust for all sorts of brokeness if she's sufficiently hurt.
Here ends my impassioned defence of my coolest attack.
I tend to see it as not quite balanced. For example, look at combined attacks. Double EP and double risk for double damage. This isn't quite so much - 1x, 2x, 3x or 4x damage in exchange for charging up and a nice DCV mod. It's good and it follows your theme of heavy damage, but I think it's a little too good as it stands. Moreso since you have Rejuv 5 and can recover -more than you spend on it- with one rejuvenation. That doesn't really feel balanced to me.
1) For the soul/melee attacks, I'm in favor of it working much like Thunder Smasher and Thunderclap Slash. Fuck up the ACV (Or, initial roll) and you've got nothing, but if you both the soul, (Or second roll) then you get a watered down, purely physical attack.
Basically, if you're combining melee and Soul, Melee is the essential part of the attack, and the rolls could and should reflect this. You must not fail the ACV.
But since soul is only to boost the attack, I view it like a building and it's foundation. A hurricane or random chance might destroy the building itself, but I've never heard of such a thing happening to a properly laid foundation. Thus, what the foundation was supporting is gone, but it's still there.
So a new trick like my thunder lance that I tried impaling Hatred on, I botched the EC roll, so I couldn't cook his insides...but I should have been able to stab him, or at least knock him away.
2) As for Starlight Breaker...Hm. I'm not a fan of nerfing attacks, but this has seemed excessively chunky to me for awhile, and this seems like a good solution.
QuoteComparing it with other senshi, Makoto generally does 70+ damage with Thunderclap Slash for 30 EP, although it lacks a DCV penalty but does have an ACV bonus. Hotaru can either do just under 70 with Ruin Eruption for 45 EP - only has a +1 DCV penalty but also reduces the target's DCV by 2 for the rest of the battle, or use Crisis Thrust for all sorts of brokeness if she's sufficiently hurt.
This is true...but to put this another way, in the fight with Hatred, Usagi did 150+damage for only two or three rounds of charging. To come even close to that level of damage, (Assuming I don't crit) I need to pour 60 EP into it, and I need to be right in close. Usagi can let loose from a long way away, and this is a reasonably cheap attack, EP wise. I'm in favor of a circumstantial discount of some sort to keep the price from being psychotic(Waive the 'double cost' for combining attacks, maybe?) but Considering this one could level a building given the right setup, the price increase seems fair.
Crisis Thrust only becomes honestly broken with the glaive. And that's...100 EP and 5 hp cost. Even the regular crisis thrust is 80 ep. I PAY for that one.
As for the 'risk' of Starlight Breaker? >_>; There's never even been an attempt to disrupt it since it can be thrown from stand off ranges (Something that's been highly discouraged for most attacks in the past). It's a huge saving of EP compared to the rest of us and the odds are seriously in your favor between ACV and DCV mods. Furthermore, yeah, the rejuve makes this even worse. Usagi can Rejuve-Starlight-Rejuve-Starlight, and eventually get a free Starlight out of it. At best it's taking me 68 EP to do 138 damage, where Usagi will do 158 on 40, with relatively similar chances--both have to be focused on one opponent, etc, etc.
I was going to point out that at 50 EP, I'd never be able to use it twice in a row - I'd *have* to rejuve to use it again, since I only have 100 EP. Which ties in with what Makoto said, since that'd make it utterly impossible to use in a combined attack.
And yes, I haven't been hit while charging it so far, but I've only used charged versions like twice - once against Jadeite while he was busy fighting our aerial squadron and once against Hatred while he was fighting several others a decent distance away. Obviously I'm not stupid enough to charge it when there's an obvious risk of getting hit while doing so.
Also, using the fact that I have high rejuve as an excuse to penalise me seems really unfair. I paid for that ability after all.
Honestly, if Starlight Breaker is seen as such a problem, I'd rather have it just taken out via actual events in game (it is dependant on the Lunar Staff, although destroying that would have a whole host of other issues) and replaced by something less objectionable than just having it mysteriously become more difficult to use. I'd be sad to see it go, since its awesome in a dramatic sense, and has great utility outside of an actual battle (like destroying Jadeite's portal), but I'd rather have a usable top tier attack than something I simply can't use outside of set piece events.
QuoteHonestly, if Starlight Breaker is seen as such a problem, I'd rather have it just taken out via actual events in game (it is dependant on the Lunar Staff, although destroying that would have a whole host of other issues) and replaced by something less objectionable than just having it mysteriously become more difficult to use. I'd be sad to see it go, since its awesome in a dramatic sense, and has great utility outside of an actual battle (like destroying Jadeite's portal), but I'd rather have a usable top tier attack than something I simply can't use outside of set piece events.
Isn't that a little melodramatic? =/ It's not a dramatic price increase, and you do have tremdous Rejuv. All this was about was evening out the playing field a little, I thought. I know I wasn't trying to pick on you for having it...
Not really. For example, when we were fighting Jadeite and had him down from the air, I had to spam off a couple of uncharged Breakers to hit him. I'd have to do much the same if I got caught in a fight with Hatred or some other big baddie of this arc - I was only able to charge up last time because I was basically coming out of nowhere while you guys were fighting him.
My other attacks don't do enough damage to seriously bother the villians of this arc, and if I had to rejuve after every single shot from Starlight Breaker, it'd be a tremendous pain.
Plus, y'know, spamming rejuve like that would lead to it getting nerfed in short order.
Quote...but I'd rather have a usable top tier attack than something I simply can't use outside of set piece events.
Welcome to my feelings about the Glaive Crisis Thrust. >_>
And I think paying for it is what' the point is--Starlight Breaker is too much in practice for what it cost to get. What it costs to use is a part of that balance.
It ends up creating a balance conundrum.
As for the stand off capability and the logic to that--yes, it's logical, but you havent' been taking ACV penalties like it's been hinted since early arc 1 that the rest of us would take if we tried engaging at that sort of range. If I can fly 100 feet into the air and bombard something on the ground without ACV penalties, this might be less of an issue, because then there's the possibility for all of us to get into a position to not be harmed while we pour on the fire as well.
Quote from: "Ebiris"I was going to point out that at 50 EP, I'd never be able to use it twice in a row - I'd *have* to rejuve to use it again, since I only have 100 EP. Which ties in with what Makoto said, since that'd make it utterly impossible to use in a combined attack.
Okay, point about combined attacks there. Mmmm.
QuoteAnd yes, I haven't been hit while charging it so far, but I've only used charged versions like twice - once against Jadeite while he was busy fighting our aerial squadron and once against Hatred while he was fighting several others a decent distance away. Obviously I'm not stupid enough to charge it when there's an obvious risk of getting hit while doing so.
Point; won't dispute it too much.
QuoteAlso, using the fact that I have high rejuve as an excuse to penalise me seems really unfair. I paid for that ability after all.
I'm not penalising you for it. You're the sum of the parts, and balance is working your powers in light of that. It's why Hotaru's Crisis Thrusts are EP sinks of a grand nature - they wouldn't be balanced if they cost a more reasonable EP, would they? Or a normal human who for whatever reason onlya ttacks with his fists and feet, having no massive damage - but has a natural ACV of 11 for whatever reason. It's good, but it's not unbalanced per se compared to the norm here. A natural 11 ACV on most of you girls would pust that into unbalancedness in combination with your other abilities.
QuoteHonestly, if Starlight Breaker is seen as such a problem, I'd rather have it just taken out via actual events in game (it is dependant on the Lunar Staff, although destroying that would have a whole host of other issues) and replaced by something less objectionable than just having it mysteriously become more difficult to use. I'd be sad to see it go, since its awesome in a dramatic sense, and has great utility outside of an actual battle (like destroying Jadeite's portal), but I'd rather have a usable top tier attack than something I simply can't use outside of set piece events.
I don't think it's a problem as much as I want to tweak it a bit. It's really good, but I worry it eclipsed everyone else rather badly and skirts being unbalanced.
Okay.
Since you feel strongly about it, I'll give you a choice: I can rebalance Starlight Breaker a bit, scrap it and give you something new, or scrap it and work with Moon Crystal Tiara since I wanted to make that worthwhile anyhow. I'd prefer not to scrap it. I really do like the move, itj ust feels a hair too strong as is. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears too, people.
What about a branchoff attack? Give her a slightly reduced power version of the Starlight Breaker that costs less, Like Hotaru's non-glaive Crisis thrust?
Moon Crystal Tiara is a joke. Permanently drop 2 EP for 129 damage? Considering the abuse Hatred took last night, the idea is patently absurd. It'd barely make our current villians blink.
I suppose its probably best to scrap it and come up with something new - I had a somewhat decent idea back on Gaia for another level 4 attack that I could use more consistently than Starlight Breaker, but never had points to spend on it.
If it's allowed, I'd be more than happy to have Starlight Breaker raised to 50 EP while gaining another attack between it and Twilight Flash. Thematically I'd prefer something that didn't come across as 'Starlight Breaker-lite', but I have an idea for something, as I said above.
That'll work. I'll bear that in mind next powerup time and tweak it then. For now Starlight Breaker will remain the same in that case pending said update time.
Okay, now that this is taken care of, any comments on the melee+soul attacks, people?
I'm forced to spend 15 ep for the combined attacks...so yeah, I'd at least like to get SOMETHING out of them if the soul misses. See Makoto's logic, really. If you fail to focus the magic, there's not necessarily anything wrong with your physical swing.
Yeah, pretty much, and it also happens to make sense. If anyone else wants to argue or comment go ahead. Since I got mostly agreement in #mk over it I'm inclined to enact it unless someone has anything to say tonight.
Sounds fine to me, albeit I would move for putting those kind of combos down on a sheet with a set cost. Hotaru's is a good example, she has to spend more then the assumed 5 EP usage for the EC application. 15 EP sounds about right in the ballpark.
The main problem, I think, was coming with those on the fly without any real mechanics to ground them in for balance yet. Incidentally, new abilities that you just start experimenting in the heat of battle would probably require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.
QuoteThe main problem, I think, was coming with those on the fly without any real mechanics to ground them in for balance yet. Incidentally, new abilities that you just start experimenting in the heat of battle would probably require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.
This seems rather excessive. Considering they already require two rolls instead of the normal 1 for practiced manuevers. How many handcuffs do we want to put on creativity in fighting? On top of that, They don't do enough damage to warrant so many restrictions.
I do understand the need for balance, but we're really headed toward making EC too costly and frustrating to use in fights, and we'll just end up spamming Melee and Senshi attacks.
Come to think of it, -why- do Hotaru's combined attacks cost fifteen EP? I assume there's a good reason, since she hasn't objected, but should I be assigning combined moves a higher cost? (I confess. I skip reading large chunks of this thread because arguments over rules detract from the fun of the game for me.)
Quote from: "Laggy"require a higher Soul check or dedicating an entire round to manifesting the EC effect (the melee attack + EC takes only one action to execute), whereas those pat down on the char sheet and having been practiced many times in the past would require no extensive measures.
You're confusing EC manuevers.
There's EC to make your hand to hand attacks simple weapons - This requires one action/roll.
Then there's EC added to a melee weapon - You roll this every single time you attack with it.
We're concerned with the latter, not the former. A full action to activate it would make it...amazingly stupid to use.
If you're going to start arguing about the numbers, then it's going to be a math argument and that's really all it'll amount to. Whether 5 or 15 EP for adding EC x 5 damage to your basic physical with a Soul check is balanced is totally up to (the GM's) interpretation. Hotaru's is such a clear-cut classic example of "add EC to regular attack" damage that the cost is the basis as to why others shouldn't get off more easily (again 5 as opposed to 15).
This is off-topic, anyway; the original question was whether a failed Soul check would cause the melee part of an attack to miss, and it looks like everyone's agreed no, that you'd still get the physical part to do something.
Well, yes, it's off topic, but now I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about so I don't get smacked with another rule change or mistake I'm making in the middle of a blasted fight again. ^^;
There... isn't anything concrete to discuss.
By their nature, anytime you try something new in combat, the mechanics for it are going to be wonky since it's never been tested before. It will be analyzed and compared to anything similar to make sure it checks out well, and the more conservative way approach to do that is to generally let stuff start out small at first and then expand on it later. This makes more sense in accordance to experimenting with new moves or techniques anyhow, including EC applications.
The main point I'm trying to make is that new stuff coming up should generally not instantly overshadow pre-existing stuff, especially in the case where they are all but identical. It always takes a few tries before you get the hang of something to work effectively, hence my remarks above.
Does this stem creative and new attempts from being instantly good or effective? Only somewhat, yes, but at the same time if you never even try, you're not going to get anywhere, either. Baby steps first, then more concrete skill later. It's far too situational-based for someone to really say, and comes down to that and the GM in the end.
QuoteIt always takes a few tries before you get the hang of something to work effectively, hence my remarks above.
This really isn't necessarily true, unless you're doing something you've never even touched before. For example, we've all been using EC for the longest time, and have even combined it with Melee before. There's no good reason to make it harder, considering the soul checks still have a roughly one in three chance of failing.
Now, if I'd tried Plant EC for the first time in a fight, sure, all sorts of Mods and restrictions should apply. But Practice, logically speaking, should make EC use easier than the (to me) ridiculous complexity of what you seem to be proposing.
If you've used a particular EC application that many times, then by all rights it should really deserve to be put down in writing on your sheet or whatnot. Failure rate is dependant on char to char, so that's not really applicable. (For instance, Hotaru has an extremely minor fail chance on her ability.)
There's nothing complex about saying "trying new stuff is a slow and learning process, and thus will not equate to being instantly as good/better than already existing stuff". If just being willing to deal with mechanics in a balanced manner is what you call complex, then, well, I can't really argue your view on that. >_>
QuoteThere's nothing complex about saying "trying new stuff is a slow and learning process, and thus will not equate to being instantly as good/better than already existing stuff". If just being willing to deal with mechanics in a balanced manner is what you call complex, then, well, I can't really argue your view on that. >_>
Actually, this goes quite against how we've run things so far. There are perhaps mods on ideas, but by and far, diving into the deep end of a magical concept is what we're best at. Jun's even called us on it about how we're natural talents at it. >_>;
We've done 'slow learning process' to one degree or another with the most complex ideas, but we still tend to focus on pushing and shoving rather hard with the stuff, and rarely takes us more than a few days to nail our first work with something down. And EC isn't honestly one of those amazingly complex ideas unless you use it specifically so.
While this is irrelevant to Usagi, as her EC is utterly inoffensive, I can still chip in my thoughts since I did once play a girl who had fire EC in the last game...
EC is something instinctive and very much innate to the character - it's far less about feeling out mechanics and dry experimentation, and really should be able to flow quite freely unless you push against the upper limits of what your skill allows.
For the example of trying something new in combat, I see no reason why one couldn't have a sudden inspiration to use their EC in a situation where it would be advantageous, even if they haven't put the specific 'trick' on their sheet - you can't cover for all eventualities, but if something makes sense at a particular moment, why not encourage creative problem solving by using EC? Obviously some things are harder than others, but that gets taken into account with mods on your soul check, whether you're practicing it for the first time in controlled circumstances or doing it for the first time in a heated battle.
Honestly, for what the main thrust of the discussion is - using EC to buff a melee attack, I see no reason at all why every senshi shouldn't have already practiced such and got it down to a fine art, hence it shouldn't even be an issue for this experimentation penalty.