From the Annals of Dark Souls PVP

[KLSymph]

At this point I'd very nearly suggest just starting a thread for these stories ... there seems to be no lack of them. Unfortunate in some way, amusing in more.

As it pleases you, Grahf.

My previous posts:

Hunting down an invader.

Low level invader.

High level invasion victim.



One invader killed me repeatedly with cheap tactics, so I started playing hide and seek with him and dumping him from my world.  This conversation followed.

From: Invader
Subject: fag

To: Invader
Subject: Re:fag
What's the matter? Stun+Hornet+backstab and running away to heal is cool but some fog ring trolling is too much for you? :)

From: Invader
Subject: Re:fag
lol
you are seriously fag

To: Invader
Subject: Re:fag
Oh no, I've been insulted by some one who couldn't find me while standing four feet away! Twice! :-(

From: Invader
Subject: Re:fag
you are loser
but dont be an asshole

To: Invader
Subject: Re:fag
I lost five times without so much as indicting you, while you couldn't go past two invasions before throwing "fag" around. Trying taking your own advice.

He invaded again, and camped the boss door, so after ten minutes I disconnected.

From: Invader
Subject: geez
grow up noob

To: Invader
Subject: Re:geez
Ah, "grow up noob." I can't wait for your next original insult. ^_~

He invaded using a different PS3 profile, which uses a different name.

From: Invader 2
Subject: noob

To: Invader 2
Subject: Re:noob
*shrug*

From: Invader 2
Subject:
im "Invader"
hahahaha

To: Invader 2
Subject: Re:
I knew from the "noob" message. You beat me fair and square, and I don't need to get bent out of shape about it. You don't need to send slurs when I mess with you either. Have fun.

From: Invader 2
Subject: Re:
m9(^_^) loooosssseeeerrrr

To: Invader 2
Subject: Re:
That "don't be an asshole" talk sure seems like hypocrisy at this point.

Though I didn't win any fights against this invader, I take satisfaction in sparing some other poor player from having to deal with him for eight invasions.

...Dark Souls?

[Sierra]

What's this, a Dark Souls thread in my Soulriders?

*Cid scans older posts*

Yeah, no one spamming WotG in PVP has a right to complain about anything. If you're legitimately just trying to run through the game and aren't looking for PVP, then I consider pretty much anything fair against a Darkwraith, but someone actively seeking the other player out and then immediately resorting to the most unbalanced spells in the game deserves whatever they get.

Possibly my most rewarding experience with Dark Souls PVP was seeing an obviously hacked character (read: he took zero damage when I hit him) fall off a ledge trying to catch up with me when I ran away after it became obvious he was invincible*. I got 900,000 souls, but that wasn't the reward. I wanted to message him, TOO BAD YOU CAN'T HACK AWAY FALLING DAMAGE, but I generally don't taunt people. Besides, hackers and dark magic spammers both hardly warrant acknowledgement, and this wanker was both. (I may possibly hate Dark Bead/Pursuers even more than Wrath of the Gods. You're basically letting the game play itself for you if you're relying on that stuff. That shit ain't balanced for PVP, yo.)

(*Running from an opponent is pretty much the dumbest thing you can generally do in Dark Souls PVP, but I was looking for a convenient place to try and shove him off a cliff. This is the only way to kill a hacked character.)

[KLSymph]

(I may possibly hate Dark Bead/Pursuers even more than Wrath of the Gods. You're basically letting the game play itself for you if you're relying on that stuff. That shit ain't balanced for PVP, yo.)

Pursuers in particular is frightening the first few times you have to fight a user. For those who haven't played Dark Souls, Pursuers is a high-level spell that creates slow but powerful homing projectiles; casting it hangs the projectiles around the caster until the caster gets close to an enemy, at which point the spell triggers independently and begins to chase him down.  I remember my first time facing it in Oolacile Township, way before I started doing PVP, where an invader (with Tin Crystallization Catalyst and Crown of Dusk to stack spell damage, of course) turned around, cast it, and then started doing back-hops so that he can get close to me without facing me so the spell doesn't trigger until he was in melee range.  Luckily that tactic takes you by surprise only once, believe me.

However, if you're willing to focus your build and apply the right tactics, both Dark Bead and Pursuers are actually quite easy to beat.  All you really need is a lightly equipped build that lets you fast-roll plus the stamina to do so repeatedly, an arena that gives you space to dodge, and the understanding that blocking those spells (and all other magic, really) is the wrong move.  All you have to do is learn the invincibility frame timing for rolling through the spells (counterintuitively, you will often have to roll into them instead of away).  Even Pursuers can be dodged just by sharply changing the dodge direction; I get good results from going left-right-left-right.

This is far less true for Wrath of the Gods.  Naive Wrath spammers are pretty easy to deal with as long as you're prepared for it (look for the talisman and the Crown of Dusk, and be wary of dead-angle Wraths) and ready to dodge repeatedly.  I win more often than not, and if they're really predictable you can go for a satisfying roll-backstab.  Experienced Wrath abusers who mix in regular attacks and fakeouts are very difficult to deal with because they're impossible to get close to but also hard to turtle against.  Even though Wraths can only be cast a small number of times compared to other offensive spells, I find that trying to bait the casts is usually not practical because of how aggressive Wrath players are about crowding you.  I won't say that Wrath is completely overpowered, because the sophisticated Wrath tactics do take skill, because Wrath builds need a lot of stat investment, and because only personal distaste keeps me from using what's probably the best counter-tactic (endless flipping with the Dark Wood Grain Ring until the opponent loses the will to live), but the sequence of Wrath stun to guaranteed backstab to Wrath-or-chainstab-mixup is very easy to do and anyone who disses you after doing it should jump into oncoming traffic.

[Sierra]

I just keep the Silver Pendant equipped at all times for Pursuers. This isn't a perfect solution since you really need two blasts to outlast the spell and your opponent can shoot you in the face with other spells while you're doing it, but just seeing their instant-win spell nullified seems to demoralize people who are accustomed to letting it kill everything for them. Dark Bead, now, it's fast enough that I often don't see it coming, and my principal Darkwraith character is squishy enough that it'll waste me in one hit at close range (and since she's SL50, it's not always going to be obvious when I draw someone high-level enough to have it).

Never blocking magic is sound advice. I tend to never block anything, really, not even sure why I use a shield in PVP anymore. It's been my experience that the most successful approach is to just be hyper aggressive. Sure, you may run out of stamina at a crucial time, but it's not like your opponent knows that.

KL we better get some Chameleon stories at some point. Best spell in Dark Souls or best spell in Dark Souls?

[KLSymph]

Chameleon is certainly the best spell for making very strange stories.  I have few of my own, as I favor strict melee in PVP, but I remember with great fondness my first Chameleon ambush.



"Oh no, I am being invaded!"


"My outfit is definitely not a clue about what I'm going to do next!"

*runs to spawn point*

*barrels*


Like so.

Invader spawns and runs past.

*unbarrels and chases down*

*BACKSTAB*

*invader dies*


Look Skyward

"I AM A SNEAKY NINJA." -- KLSymph



It's so simple, but pulling it off makes you so happy that I don't begrudge people who do it to me.

[Sierra]

My favorite place for it is by the Catacombs bridge switches. Because no one expects the funeral urn. *Camp out by second switch. Watch invader climb up the ladder, ignore me, climb down the ladder. Watch invader walk onto the bridge. Watch invader falllllll.* It is just the greatest.

(On the other hand, I've had a couple invaders with such an alarmingly precise memory for scenery that they instantly recognized something was out of place and smashed me through the camouflage.)

[KLSymph]

When people invade me and use Chameleon, I usually have one of two diametrically opposite reactions:


Prostration.

As in I walk right up to them, stare for a second, then kowtow.

Or...


Gough's Greatbow

Shoot them in the head.

Which is more entertaining is a question for the ages.

[KLSymph]

Outer Anor Londo is full of griefers.  One invader came in and straight up Hornet-chain-backstabbed me to death.  Thankfully, Anor Londo is gifted with a set of player-operated rotating staircase, which has the special property of non-static surfaces: backstabs (and ripostes) can't be performed there.  When that player invaded me a second time, I slowly and innocently backpedaled onto the stairs.

It turns out players who Hornet-chainstab aren't that good at PVP without it. Shocking, I know.

After feeding this invader a handful of Leo Ring-fueled thrusts with my spear, he started running away to heal, because who cares about a dignified loss?  The Anor Londo rotating staircase is, to describe it crudely, a disk-like platform: the switch in the center raises and lowers the entire staircase along three heights, a spiral stairway around the switch leads downward from the disk to a lower level, and a wide outer ring surrounds the spiral stairway.  The invader tried to run from where we were fighting in the outer ring and drop down to the spiral stairway in the middle; unfortunately, he underestimated the height difference from the point where he jumped to the stairs below, and died on impact.

I laughed over his bloodstain, because hey, he didn't want to lose with dignity.


Well! What is it!

So he sent me a message.


"Die."

And I said:



;_;*sniffle*

[Grahf]

I honestly don't know whether these things make me excited or frightened of playing this game myself. Of course I have to get a PC controller first, since I hear the default PC controls are not very good, to say the least.

[Sierra]

I don't know what your other platform options are, but from most accounts it sounds like PC is the least preferable way to play Dark Souls. Additionally to whatever control issues there may be, I gather hackers proliferate in the PC port in numbers disproportionate to console versions (although it's also a problem for Xbox, I think?) This is a nonissue if you intend to play offline, but hey, co-op/PVP are part of the fun (people do so much crazy stuff with this game. It really does amaze me sometimes).

Personally, playing on PS3, I have maybe twice out of all my way-more-than-I-should-admit time spent playing the game encountered another player blatantly hacking (and only once been outright insulted by someone I killed).

[KLSymph]

I should point out that my frequency of getting terrible people as matchups is at least partly because I like to dress up in starting gear and camp at invasion hotspots so that I can purposefully get invaded by griefers.  Even then, not all of the fights I have leave me getting cussed out--I've even gotten praise for my cosplay ruse by one invader, and of course there are always the funny invasions where everybody gets naked and fist each other for ten minutes.  Which means something different in Dark Souls than what you're thinking.

[KLSymph]

Dark Souls 2 releases tomorrow, but alas, I have neither the free cash nor the available time to get in on the fun on day one.  In lieu of that, here is one last Dark Souls 1 PVP story: my fight against the cheapest invader I've ever encountered.

The following happens in the Undead Burg dueling arena.  In fact, it happened during the half hour PSN conversation I already wrote about in the "low level invader" story, linked in a previous post.

A red phantom invaded into my PVP arena.  He was wearing the Crown of Dusk and the rest of the Moonlight Set.  In one hand he carryied a Tin Crystallization Catalyst, and in the other he held a talisman.  He came down from the invasion spawnpoint to the entrance of the arena, and performed a Proper Bow gesture.

Instead of returning the bow, I popped a green blossom (temporarily buff to stamina recovery speed), because my dishonorable duelist meter was beeping.

After finishing the bow, the invader saw that I did not reciprocate, so he performed the bow again.

I immediately swapped to my anti-troll Silver Knight Spear and began rushing him down.

What's wrong with the invader's behavior?: ShowHide

First, his gear.  While it is not inherently dishonorable or inappropriate for dueling, the combination of Crown of Dusk and Tin Crystallization Catalyst is a sure sign that its user is stacking magic damage bonuses.  The Tin Crystallization Catalyst is the most powerful sorcery catalyst at high Intelligence, and the Crown of Dusk is a special headgear that increases spell damage by 20%.  In addition, it is almost certain that a user with this setup wears the Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring for yet another +20-26% sorcery damage.  This customization tends to make spells very capable of one-shot kills against builds that are not specially anti-magic.

Second, bowing etiquette for dueling.  This is pretty basic: generally at the beginning of a match, both sides gesture with a bow or wave from across the arena, then apply buffs (such as green blossoms or weapon enchantments), then both sides raise shields and approach.  While any of these steps can be optional (such as if your build doesn't use buffs), the etiquette is that you don't approach until everyone's done and ready.  Gesture animations in Dark Souls, though short, cannot be canceled and leave you completely vulnerable, so this sequence signals both sides that it will be an honorable fight.  Usually, a gesture cannot be completed quickly enough that the first one to finish and then run across the arena to attack before the second also finishes.  However, although it's not immediately obvious, the Proper Bow gesture is among the fastest gestures (noticeably faster than the basic Bow, and far faster than a weapon buff, but slower than item usage).

These systems result in a particularly distasteful troll tactic: under the pretense of Proper Bowing for a duel, a sorcerer can bait an honorable duelist to return the bow (preferably the slower basic Bow), then in the small window of vulnerability, shoot a fully boosted Crystal Soul Spear (which has the highest single-shot damage spell in the game) across the arena.  An unshielded blast of Crystal Soul Spear from a Tin Crystallization Catalyst enhanced with the Crown of Dusk and a Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring will easily do 1000 to 1300 damage, which absolutely will kill in one shot anyone who is not specially built to take that sort of damage (remember that a VIT 50 character has 1500 HP), and reduce any survivors to the point where any PVP spell can kill them in just one more cast.  For this reason, Tin Crystallization + Crown of Dusk is a red flag for the experienced PVP duelist.  Unless you know the player, you don't bow to him first, you watch what he does.  If you see him giving the Proper Bow, you don't bow back, you keep watching him.

If he gives the Proper Bow twice for no discernible reason, then there is no doubt that he is trying to trick you.

When I started spearing him aggressively, he had no choice but to start dodging and trying to stay away from me, since the Silver Knight Spear is fast and has among the longest reach of all melee weapons, while a build that exploits spell damage stacking and wears the Moonlight Set has very poor Vitality and defense stats.  It quickly became a game where I kept pressuring him with fast stabs, while he tried to get far enough away from me to fire bolts of Crystal Soul Spear (surprise!).  The Soul Spear spells are highly damaging but they are slow enough that using them in PVP requires tactical skill, and since the invader just spammed them, he quickly ran out of castings (four casts per attunement slot).

So... he then switched to spamming Wrath of the Gods.  Yeah.  I think he hit me on the shield once, but his spamming was uninspired and I dodged the other two blasts (only three casts per attunement slot).  It looked like he attuned only enough copies for his attack spells to enable the troll tactic but not enough for an extended PVP match.  Since cheap Wrathing didn't accomplish anything for him, and I'm not limited by spell consumption, he ran out of the arena in the direction of the the Undead Merchant's building, and raised Crystal Homing Soulmass, waiting for me to come after him.

Crystal Homing Soulmass is a spell that hangs multiple projectiles on the user once cast, which automatically shoot at an enemy who gets within range.  Since it is automatic, the user can attack independently, which is especially useful if the projectiles guard-break the enemy at the same time.  A fully boosted Soulmass array can do terrific damage itself, even more than a Crystal Soul Spear if all five projectiles hit, but that is rare on a dodging PVP opponent.  I suppose the invader was hoping I'd leave the open arena and come into the tighter bridge to the Merchant's building, where I could get entangled with the two spear-and-shield Hollow Soldiers also stationed there.

*KLSymph swigs some Estus, pops another green blossom, and waits.*

The invader slowly inched forward, baiting me.  I slowly inched forward to set off his Soulmasses, then dodged backward (Soulmass projectiles have very short flight range).  He fired one last remaining Crystal Soul Spear, but I dodged it easily.  The message was pretty clear; baiting me was not going to win him this fight.  I just stood back and waited for him to try something.

He put up Crystal Homing Soulmass again, ran back across the bridge into the arena, then as I dodged the Soulmass projectiles, he darted toward the other, longer bridge toward Firelink Shrine.  After running most of the length of that bridge, he turned back around and cast...

...Tranquil Walk of Peace.

Then, as I stood there thinking to myself that this has devolved into a parody of cheap PVP tactics, he swapped to an Uchigatana and rushed at me.  Tranquil Walk of Peace is an area spell that increases the burden on the caster's enemies.  Like natural overburdening from heavy equipment, it prevents enemies from running quickly and it turns their dodging into a completely vulnerable stagger animation.  For a lightly armored, dodge-dependent build such as mine, TWoP can be very hazardous, and it is considered dishonorable and unfun for dueling but of course great for trolling.

The invader rushed back to the arena, and with his Uchigatana he ran full speed at my side in a bald attempt to circle my near-immobile self for a backstab, because once you've started TWoP-ing what else are you going to do?  And in the face of that tactic, knowing that almost any action I took--whether attacking or dodging--would leave me completely defenseless, and knowing that this guy will go directly to chain-backstabbing if given a chance, what could I do but... hold my shield up and slowly walk backward?

*Invader runs full speed at my left side as I step backward, swings his Uchigatana, clangs on my Crest Shield instead of starting the backstab animation.*

*Invader repeats, with same outcome.  Seriously, he was holding a flat run for like two seconds, and I was holding back on the stick for the same duration, making us rub against each other before he hit attack.*

*Invader goes for my right side!  Nope.*

TWoP expired (it lasts only ten seconds), and I counterattacked, forcing him to run away back to the long bridge and cast TWoP again, while I popped another green blossom.  And again he came with his Uchigatana, flailing at my defense.  Even without backstabs, the Uchigatana was dangerous because all katana-class weapons inflict bleeding status that medium shields won't fully defend against, and also because I'll eventually suffer guard-break if I don't rest my guard.

So I... used what is generally considered a very poor PVP tactic: with my shield held up, I stabbed forward with my spear as the invader attacked.  Doing so, though it lets the player attack while keeping him defended, has been a fairly useless for PVP after the game was patched to weaken it by raising the stamina cost of attacks from behind the shield.  It also leaves you very immobile; if the invader was paying attention, he probably could've circled me for the backstab then.  I don't know if he wasn't watching his HP or he was really hoping that a spellcasting build with an Uchigatana could outrace a melee build with a shield and Silver Knight Spear (plus thrusting weapon counterattack damage bonus), but stab stab stab and he keeled over and died.

As he vanished from the world, I went:


NO!  BAD!

Looking back, that was the most hilariously pitiful PVP opponent I ever had.  If only I could go back in time and double-backstab him just to make the point.  I hope Dark Souls 2 is great, and that we won't see too many PVP invaders running down the entire troll checklist.