Haigeki Discussion

[Anastasia]

Haigeki chapter 5

Spoiler: Ranma turns into a girl

Just came here to post that.

Fun chapter, no deep thoughts on it. Ranma should've bailed when he had a chance, but oh well. I do really dig on how well and deeply the author has worked out how haigeki, shuken and tenki work. It's great to add depth to things.

[Jason_Miao]

I do really dig on how well and deeply the author has worked out how haigeki, shuken and tenki work. It's great to add depth to things.

The explicit chi=magic bit usually irritates the hell out of me, but the writer has set up his own system rather than just try to hand-waive everything so that characters can fart lightning bolts.  So that's okay.

[Dracos]

Mmm, oddly the background depth annoys the crap out of me, probably more than It's Just Magic.  Seeing a longish essay that is summarized in Girls are prettier, pretty equals power, therefore Magical girls seems less acceptable then just going Evil Army of Magical Girls.  Still reading, but I probably shouldn't since I'm both reading and being Judgemental of it. 

The fights are pretty cool, but at the same time, Ranma seems dumb and it seems like it mandates stupidity at this point for her to win.  The enemy has to hold onto the idiot ball hard to allows a victory.  It seems right now the power levels are:  Normal Person > Martial Artist > Nerima Tier > Ranma Tier > Weakest Magical Girls > (The Good Guys) > Advanced Magical Girls > Syaoran > (Ranma Current) > Hecate/Pluto > Strong Magical Girls > The Director/Mary Sue (Note: Hecate/pluto might be on the other side of strong magical girls.  Can't tell, they can Walk Through Timestop).  The first leap was managed with replacing Ranma with Magical Girl Ranma.  Fine, understandable.  But he also pretty much rejects cooperation with the others in all but the most superficial of ways.  So basically, it's plot-wise seeming to go toward expecting DBZ'ish power gains from her to compete with the fact that "Walk through a timestop and kill everybody" is not top tier at all and the upper level folks are wielding shit like Gae Bolg.

I think managing a magical boy thing in the environment would have been more ambitious narratively.   Ranma is often holding onto the idiot ball reasonably strongly in order to both acknowledge "These girls can totally wreck me" and deny "Some success is good".  The lack of cooperative elements seems almost unreasonable in face of enemies that make herb look like a grade-school bully.

Is the Director Usagi?  If that's Usagi, then did someone stronger turn her at some point earlier meaning there's an even more ridiculous power level of reality alteration?

And I've lost track again really on what all these magical girls are for.  They're making them, to experiment on the process of making them?

[Anastasia]

Normal Person > Martial Artist > Nerima Tier > Ranma Tier > Weakest Magical Girls > (The Good Guys) > Advanced Magical Girls > Syaoran > (Ranma Current) > Hecate/Pluto > Strong Magical Girls > The Director/Mary Sue (Note: Hecate/pluto might be on the other side of strong magical girls.  Can't tell, they can Walk Through Timestop).

I don't think a strict equivalency is really right. Magical girls aren't automatically stronger than a person, as much as they have a trick that compensates for it. I got the impression that most aren't as strong as Ranma if he can get through shuken and all that. The way it imposes a perfect reality over normal reality reminds me a lot of Reality Marbles from the Nasuverse.

I think managing a magical boy thing in the environment would have been more ambitious narratively.   Ranma is often holding onto the idiot ball reasonably strongly in order to both acknowledge "These girls can totally wreck me" and deny "Some success is good".  The lack of cooperative elements seems almost unreasonable in face of enemies that make herb look like a grade-school bully.

I hope it goes there eventually, as Ranma masters the megami no ooi and all that. Anyway, I don't think Ranma was stupid as much as overconfident, as Ranma tends to be. He wasn't going to be willing to leave Akane captured if he could help it, so he took a big gamble. Now that Ranma has a way to beat them more reliably, I don't blame him at all for doing it. The gamble didn't pay off, but I know why he did it.

Is the Director Usagi?  If that's Usagi, then did someone stronger turn her at some point earlier meaning there's an even more ridiculous power level of reality alteration?

I'm fairly sure it's not Usagi, but who knows? Considering that magical girl status can be forced if you understand how to manipulate the forces involved, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a non-magical girl that figured out the tricks. She's using them to her advantage now and fucking everything all up. As the essay notes, tenki is a shortcut to enlightenment and power.

And I've lost track again really on what all these magical girls are for.  They're making them, to experiment on the process of making them?

It's still unclear to the exact goals of the PPI. They're making them to perfect the process and/or make an army, I'd reckon. They certainly seem offense-oriented enough.

---

I have a suspicion that I'm not going to like the next chapter or two, though. It's going to turn into a kludge to make Ranma into more of a girl. Brainwashing + possible magic + a memory erasing horn noted as Gondul's gear? Urgh. I rather wish Ranma had gotten away, as I'd enjoyed the story until that point. Long odds, big gambles and a lot of fun? Sign me up. I'm worried the story's gonna go off track. In particular, I have a suspicion of how things are going to turn out, roughly:

1. Ranma is brainwashed/magicked into being a real girl/embracing things, or stuck as one due to tenki and shit.
2. Since Akane's there, what do you want to bet something's going to happen there. It's the perfect way to put those two into a situation together and blah blah blah, 1 millonth rehash of Ranma/Akane shit.
3. Akane breaks Ranma's mindcontrol/amnesia.

[Dracos]

I've a lot of tolerance for 'Ranma as a girl' or "Magical Girl Ranma" but yeah:

Urgh. I rather wish Ranma had gotten away, as I'd enjoyed the story until that point. Long odds, big gambles and a lot of fun?

This seems like more of a fun story.  To me, the writer has regularly been having Ranma avoid the things that set this up (No communication with allies, constant lone-wolfness, lack of any viable intermediary goals or any comradery).   

I blame Ranma for being overconfident in as much as: If he's not confident enough to face Miss Walk Through Timstop in a fight, why in the world is he 'confident enough' to go face her boss(es)?  I was really expecting the overconfidence to be "I take a shot at Chiyo" not "I run to try and sneak in (Even though they totally see me already) and then think I can beat down her bosses solo?"

It is a very ranma thing to do, but I dunno, it just requires so much blindness  to 'Hey, they have a god damn army of these girls'.

[Anastasia]

I blame it on not wanting to leave Akane there. He'd see it as a fate worse than death, methinks.

[Dracos]

True.  It totally counts as one.

It could go Ukyo saving the day, but it's not like it's shown any bent toward letting non-ranma characters do anything to begin with.

Where  did shampoo or her granny go anyway?  I forget why the ancient heavy hitters aren't making any appearance in this so far.

[Dracos]

Normal Person > Martial Artist > Nerima Tier > Ranma Tier > Weakest Magical Girls > (The Good Guys) > Advanced Magical Girls > Syaoran > (Ranma Current) > Hecate/Pluto > Strong Magical Girls > The Director/Mary Sue (Note: Hecate/pluto might be on the other side of strong magical girls.  Can't tell, they can Walk Through Timestop).

I don't think a strict equivalency is really right. Magical girls aren't automatically stronger than a person, as much as they have a trick that compensates for it. I got the impression that most aren't as strong as Ranma if he can get through shuken and all that. The way it imposes a perfect reality over normal reality reminds me a lot of Reality Marbles from the Nasuverse.

It's reality marbles, sure, but what I mean is in a battle, they will win almost every time.  It's not strength that I'm really saying so much as the result.  If a character is a normal person that wears an item that makes them Unending Victory Man of Never Losing Any Fight, does the fact they can't lift 150 lbs, run a 10 minute mile, or touch their toes matter?  Every martial artist aside from Ranma was painted as Complete Defeat against even the weaker magical girls.  Even if they had a hundred tries and weren't surprised, it was painted that it wouldn't matter, because without having an equivelent CheatMode, they simply would never be able to connect and would eventually get hit with their magic.

I think the story paints it more as: Magical girls is playing rock paper scissors where someone is throwing Win.  It doesn't matter how good you are at Rock Paper Scissors, the person throwing win just wins.  Anyone who isn't throwing Win simply loses and when two people throw it, the person who can throw it harder almost always wins.  In that respect, I think that the power list I have is pretty reasonable.  Even Ranma with skill and magic was not only a loss, but a terrible get slaughtered without even damaging the armor of the other person loss against the Strong magical girl types.  It's closer to the DBZ setup where skill stops matter when one of the guys has 'Blow up planet effortlessly' as a move.

[Anastasia]

True.  It totally counts as one.

It could go Ukyo saving the day, but it's not like it's shown any bent toward letting non-ranma characters do anything to begin with.

Where  did shampoo or her granny go anyway?  I forget why the ancient heavy hitters aren't making any appearance in this so far.

He could, but I'm not sure it's a good idea. The entire story has been written from Ranma's PoV in a unique style. It plays against the interests of the story to change that. Alas. I'm not sure either if there's a reason given, or if they're simply not involved right now for whatever reason.

[Anastasia]

Normal Person > Martial Artist > Nerima Tier > Ranma Tier > Weakest Magical Girls > (The Good Guys) > Advanced Magical Girls > Syaoran > (Ranma Current) > Hecate/Pluto > Strong Magical Girls > The Director/Mary Sue (Note: Hecate/pluto might be on the other side of strong magical girls.  Can't tell, they can Walk Through Timestop).

I don't think a strict equivalency is really right. Magical girls aren't automatically stronger than a person, as much as they have a trick that compensates for it. I got the impression that most aren't as strong as Ranma if he can get through shuken and all that. The way it imposes a perfect reality over normal reality reminds me a lot of Reality Marbles from the Nasuverse.

It's reality marbles, sure, but what I mean is in a battle, they will win almost every time.  It's not strength that I'm really saying so much as the result.  If a character is a normal person that wears an item that makes them Unending Victory Man of Never Losing Any Fight, does the fact they can't lift 150 lbs, run a 10 minute mile, or touch their toes matter?  Every martial artist aside from Ranma was painted as Complete Defeat against even the weaker magical girls.  Even if they had a hundred tries and weren't surprised, it was painted that it wouldn't matter, because without having an equivelent CheatMode, they simply would never be able to connect and would eventually get hit with their magic.

Ranma also figured out how to beat them in a few battles, with excellent speed. It's entirely possible with a bit of time to figure out the quirks he could do far better. He even remarks on it in chapter 4, how due to time constraints he has to take the best of several shitty options. He doesn't have the luxury of a training trip or the time to learn a new secret technique to counter, he has to use what he knows and has available from them. I wouldn't be surprised for a competent martial artist to be able to figure out how to disrupt magical girls and stand a chance. Hell, Akane and Ukyou never get a chance and none of the other big hitters are around.

[Dracos]

Well, they don't technically have to change the point of view to have someone else save his bacon.  It was done at the beginning.

Mmm...

You're kinda right, but there's a reason I reject that.  Ranma has a time constraint.  The Good Guy crew does not and only seems more knowledgable on how to counter specific advanced magical girls, while still being completely doomed if a strong one even looks their way, even as a group.  It seems more a bemusement of the bad girls that the good guys are even still alive instead of having been killed during the numerous opportunities they had already during the fic.

I just don't see the hint that there is honestly a non-super-estoric way to approach it and that's sort of a given since they literally alter reality and rewrite your existence right out from under you.  It's not something that generally allows for survival to 'train' against.  Basically, I don't believe Ranma in the story when he thinks he could get around it without tearing his existance into some messed up thing because of how visibly capable the transformation makes them.

Ranma did win a few battles, but that's why I poke him just under it.  In a straight fight, he couldn't win and only by digging really deep into trickery did he not get slaughtered.

[Anastasia]

You're kinda right, but there's a reason I reject that.  Ranma has a time constraint.  The Good Guy crew does not and only seems more knowledgable on how to counter specific advanced magical girls, while still being completely doomed if a strong one even looks their way, even as a group.  It seems more a bemusement of the bad girls that the good guys are even still alive instead of having been killed during the numerous opportunities they had already during the fic.

I just don't see the hint that there is honestly a non-super-estoric way to approach it and that's sort of a given since they literally alter reality and rewrite your existence right out from under you.  It's not something that generally allows for survival to 'train' against.  Basically, I don't believe Ranma in the story when he thinks he could get around it without tearing his existance into some messed up thing because of how visibly capable the transformation makes them.

Ranma did win a few battles, but that's why I poke him just under it.  In a straight fight, he couldn't win and only by digging really deep into trickery did he not get slaughtered.

Well, the other good guys are all magical 'boys' rather than martial artists. They don't have the training or understanding Ranma does, or Ryouga, Cologne or Happosai. I'm going out on a limb here, but I suspect martial artists have better understanding because they didn't take the shortcut tenki provides. They've learned it all the hard way, paid their dues. They didn't get a magical transformation stick and a powerup mode. The martial artists have the breadth of knowledge to counter things, while the typical magical sort doesn't.

[Dracos]

For someone judgemental on the fic, I certainly have way too many opinions :P

Hmmm, it's reasonable, but even for Ranma the 'understanding' comes  off as far too much Super Estoric Knowledge learning that makes it hard to buy the whole Nerima crew and especially normal competent martial artists knowing or comprehending.  It's one thing to see Ranma, maybe Ryoga going 'oh, I heard this from a monk somewhere in the alps', but I'd raise an eyebrow at Akane or Ukyou or most of the non-mystic origin cast being even remotely aware of the details.

[Anastasia]

For someone judgemental on the fic, I certainly have way too many opinions :P

Hmmm, it's reasonable, but even for Ranma the 'understanding' comes  off as far too much Super Estoric Knowledge learning that makes it hard to buy the whole Nerima crew and especially normal competent martial artists knowing or comprehending.  It's one thing to see Ranma, maybe Ryoga going 'oh, I heard this from a monk somewhere in the alps', but I'd raise an eyebrow at Akane or Ukyou or most of the non-mystic origin cast being even remotely aware of the details.

Akane, no way. I could see Ukyou or Shampoo as a bit of a stretch. The others live and breathe martial arts, showing often insane capacity for them compared to other pursuits. Ryouga, Taro, Herb, Saffron? All of them I could see keeping up with this.  This stuff isn't so obscure to a martial art focused person, remember.

[Jason_Miao]

Mmm, oddly the background depth annoys the crap out of me, probably more than It's Just Magic.  Seeing a longish essay that is summarized in Girls are prettier, pretty equals power, therefore Magical girls seems less acceptable then just going Evil Army of Magical Girls.  Still reading, but I probably shouldn't since I'm both reading and being Judgemental of it. 

I have to trust you on that, because I didn't actually read that essay.  And I won't, until the story is finished.

My objection with the Chi=magic equivalence is that it makes about as much sense as organic chemistry = magic.   Chi = magic is usually just a lazy and ignorant writer who is too busy being lazy to relieve his ignorance.  Employing some thought into how the various powers make a system, and using that system means he's not that: he's worldbuilding.

Granted, one shouldn't need an appendix to be able to read the story, and that's why I'm avoiding reading the essay - because I'd like to see how well the story works on its own first. 

The fights are pretty cool, but at the same time, Ranma seems dumb

He is a character from Ranma 1/2.  (And akane is there, he's stupid-heroic, etc, etc.  But that really just boils down to the previous point).

The enemy has to hold onto the idiot ball hard to allows a victory. 

They are magical girls.  QED.