Hell is a Martial Artist discussion thread

[Dracos]

The chapter is okay, but lacks punch.  Probably would work better for me if I was reading it continuously with the rest.

[Anastasia]

The chapter is okay, but lacks punch.  Probably would work better for me if I was reading it continuously with the rest.

Yeah. It's a bad chapter to resume after a year+ sabbatical. It can't be helped unfortunately.

[Dracos]

I also have to admit I think Ozz takes the "Sex Appeal for Comedy Effect" farther than I can recall anything this side of Blonde 1/2.

"Someone moved.  It was Female.  Gigantic effect!"

It's amusing, but also just something that gets noted.

[Yuthirin]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3505392/14/

Hell is a Martial Artist updated.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Nabiki being dealt with is the main event. The AN at the end sums up the situation and the problems inherent with it. I don't think there was any way to elegantly do torturing Nabiki and yes, I'm aware of how fucked up a comment that is. It's about as much justice as Nabiki could hope for with how she tremendously fucked up. It more or less had to happen from a narrative viewpoint, and I think that it's also a character growth moment for several people. This includes Hild; it's looking like Kami-sama intends for him to soften Hild and serve as a counterbalance.

The rest of the chapter's okay. Sorting out who remembers Ranma and who doesn't needed to happen too. I'm surprised Nodoka doesn't but everyone else makes sense.

Well,

Spoiler: ShowHide

As a man who doesn't like torture, I feel like I was robbed when it comes to the punishment of Nabiki. I'd geared myself for powering through it, and it was lackluster at best. It felt rather like being served day-old bread and mashed peas when I'd been promised a grand steak dinner.

Another thing that jarred me was the sudden and iron-like backbone Hild seems to have spontaneously grown since Ranma took the plunge. In past chapters, she's had moments of vulnerability that made her seem almost human, and the people she tortured really seemed to deserve it. It felt justified. In her punishment of Nabiki, it really felt less about punishment for the sins she had committed in life and more about punishment for the sake of horror and pain; something it failed to deal onto the table in a convincing way.

I agree with Dracos. The chapter lacked the punch it could have had. I'm really disapopointed with it.

I had to rewrite this. Attempting to do so on an iPad 1 at 1am is probably not the best way of doing things. It's not as good as I'd originally intended.

[Anastasia]

Spoiler text time! What fun! This is a reply to Yuth.

[spoiler]

As a man who doesn't like torture, I feel like I was robbed when it comes to the punishment of Nabiki. I'd geared myself for powering through it, and it was lackluster at best. It felt rather like being served day-old bread and mashed peas when I'd been promised a grand steak dinner.

I don't disagree, but I think that was about the best he could have done under the circumstances. He's going to alienate readers with more explicit torment. It's the best option of the ones available, I think. Some of the more subtle bits helped, like Nabiki thinking she had been in torment for years.

Another thing that jarred me was the sudden and iron-like backbone Hild seems to have spontaneously grown since Ranma took the plunge. In past chapters, she's had moments of vulnerability that made her seem almost human, and the people she tortured really seemed to deserve it. It felt justified. In her punishment of Nabiki, it really felt less about punishment for the sins she had committed in life and more about punishment for the sake of horror and pain; something it failed to deal onto the table in a convincing way.

It makes sense to me. Ranma's her son/daughter now and she's being protective. She's not going to let someone who wronged Ranma get out of her grasp. I think this is going to be a point of conflict in the coming chapters. So far, Ranma was shown carefully screened and controlled views of what Hild does. Now that they're bound together forever, she's going to show him more while teaching him the ropes. The point of conflict is going to be Ranma dealing with what Hild really can do and the changes he may ultimately affect on her. Honestly, Nabiki didn't deserve the type of torment she got - Ranma alluded to this a few chapters back. My running theory is that the entire point of this gambit (and Kami-sama signing off on letting the reality change going through) is that Ranma is ultimately going to help Hild lighten up a bit. A moderating force, if you will.

So I feel that the material worked well enough.

I agree with Dracos. The chapter lacked the punch it could have had. I'm really disappointed with it.

I think the chapter's okay, just not a good one to come back with. It lacks any good wham moment (and sacrificed the one it could have had in favor of not going into heavy torture territory with Nabiki) in favor of more subtle setup work. The last two chapters were climax heavy, with Ranma accepting Hild's offer and then having it out with Ukyou. This chapter's a natural downpoint in the story's rhythm.

[Anastasia]

I'm having more fun reading his ANs than with some other entire fanfics.

[Jason_Miao]

A reply to Ko's reply to Darth

Spoiler: ShowHide

Now I know what went wrong with Haigeki.  The prereader thinks that arbitrary torture makes for good writing.

I'm going to point out the complaint I had with the last chapter in the HiMA thread.  What Yuth dislikes is the same sort of thing that I disliked about the previous chapter, and there was no year+ hiatus before that one.  The meh feeling isn't caused by hiatus; it's caused caused because Ozzallos wrote this whole subarc as a blatant Diabolus ex Machina.

The scene doesn't need explicit beatings or gore or any sudden shock (that's what you mean by wham, I presume).  It needs irony, comeuppance, subtleness - something that says "That's horrific, but Nabiki had it coming."  "Scammed less than you can make working at McDonalds for a week?  EATEN BY A DRAGON FOR YOU...FOREVER" doesn't say that.

Or to put it another way, that scene could feel much more legit keep the punishment the same, but replace Nabiki with Genma.  Given that you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, I won't bother to explain since it ought to be self explanatory.

[Dracos]

In a very simple sense, keeping the flow, that entire scene could have more punch by simply not showing anything.  That said, it alone is not really why the chapter felt bland, but it's lack of overall forward progress.  It's a bunch of scenes happening rather than a real direction with real sense of time.

Spoiler: ShowHide

  The playoff with telepathy went pretty weakly too.

There is a problem that Hild is right in the context of both shows.  There's no overarching sense of proportionate justice in either.  Justice is largely something simply metted down by whoever is strong enough to enforce it, in whatever arbitrary way they decide.

[Yuthirin]

A reply to Ko's reply to Darth

Spoiler: ShowHide

Now I know what went wrong with Haigeki.  The prereader thinks that arbitrary torture makes for good writing.

I'm going to point out the complaint I had with the last chapter in the HiMA thread.  What Yuth dislikes is the same sort of thing that I disliked about the previous chapter, and there was no year+ hiatus before that one.  The meh feeling isn't caused by hiatus; it's caused caused because Ozzallos wrote this whole subarc as a blatant Diabolus ex Machina.

The scene doesn't need explicit beatings or gore or any sudden shock (that's what you mean by wham, I presume).  It needs irony, comeuppance, subtleness - something that says "That's horrific, but Nabiki had it coming."  "Scammed less than you can make working at McDonalds for a week?  EATEN BY A DRAGON FOR YOU...FOREVER" doesn't say that.

Or to put it another way, that scene could feel much more legit keep the punishment the same, but replace Nabiki with Genma.  Given that you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, I won't bother to explain since it ought to be self explanatory.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I really don't even think that Nabiki is the real target that Hild should be persuing. The behavior shown by Soun & Genma, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nodoka, is what should really be the highlight of this. She's after the wrong person, I'd think. Nabiki hasn't really caused near as much trouble for Ranma, merely manipulated and profited from them. In reality, with none of the children having jobs and Soun not teaching, the income has got to come from somewhere. Owning a large plot of land like that in Japan is flippin' expensive.  Her behavior is somewhat excusable due to these factors.

Also, agreement with Dracos. The entire scene in hell could have been portrayed as Nabiki being brought before Ranma, half mad with pain and agony, and unable to even speak of what she had went through. That's not a cop out. It's allowing the reader to use their imagination to create a powerful image unique to each individual reader. It's less descriptive but more...I dunno. Visceral, maybe? I dunno the proper word.

[Anastasia]

Spoiler: ShowHide

Now I know what went wrong with Haigeki.  The prereader thinks that arbitrary torture makes for good writing.

No kidding? Where'd you find that out?

The scene doesn't need explicit beatings or gore or any sudden shock (that's what you mean by wham, I presume).  It needs irony, comeuppance, subtleness - something that says "That's horrific, but Nabiki had it coming."  "Scammed less than you can make working at McDonalds for a week?  EATEN BY A DRAGON FOR YOU...FOREVER" doesn't say that.

I don't disagree with that, truthfully. It's just that I think it has a valid story purpose for what he's setting up. It's not really meant to be fair and Ranma calls Hild out on it.

Or to put it another way, that scene could feel much more legit keep the punishment the same, but replace Nabiki with Genma.  Given that you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, I won't bother to explain since it ought to be self explanatory.

Hah. I always figure it'll be some sort of Neko-ken related torment for him.

[Anastasia]

Yet more quotes and spoilers. This time it's to Yuth. [spoiler]

I really don't even think that Nabiki is the real target that Hild should be persuing. The behavior shown by Soun & Genma, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nodoka, is what should really be the highlight of this. She's after the wrong person, I'd think. Nabiki hasn't really caused near as much trouble for Ranma, merely manipulated and profited from them.

Nabiki was also the only one dumb enough to sell her soul to Hild. Emphasis on dumb. Do others deserve it more? Probably, yeah. Did any of them give Hild the perfect chance? Nope. It's not like she can just go and take them at will; she's tied under limiters and rules.

In reality, with none of the children having jobs and Soun not teaching, the income has got to come from somewhere. Owning a large plot of land like that in Japan is flippin' expensive.  Her behavior is somewhat excusable due to these factors.

Pretty sure Nabiki being the breadwinner is pure fanon. If anything, I'd figure Soun's well off since he has a huge plot of land and is a local council member. He could just be loaded, y'know. Nabiki's shown to be self-centered and generally uncaring. Being the secret breadwinner doesn't jive with that at all.

Also, agreement with Dracos. The entire scene in hell could have been portrayed as Nabiki being brought before Ranma, half mad with pain and agony, and unable to even speak of what she had went through. That's not a cop out. It's allowing the reader to use their imagination to create a powerful image unique to each individual reader. It's less descriptive but more...I dunno. Visceral, maybe? I dunno the proper word.

It's letting the reader form their own image of what happened. Sorta like the noodle incident in Calvin and Hobbes. That probably would have been more effective if done right. I suspect Ozzallos wanted the readers to see what Nabiki was dealing with, even if it was a bad call for the chapter.

[Jason_Miao]

@Ko

Spoiler: ShowHide

Now I know what went wrong with Haigeki.  The prereader thinks that arbitrary torture makes for good writing.

No kidding? Where'd you find that out?

That was a bit of tongue-in-cheek.  Ozz was the prereader for that fic, wasn't he?

The scene doesn't need explicit beatings or gore or any sudden shock (that's what you mean by wham, I presume).  It needs irony, comeuppance, subtleness - something that says "That's horrific, but Nabiki had it coming."  "Scammed less than you can make working at McDonalds for a week?  EATEN BY A DRAGON FOR YOU...FOREVER" doesn't say that.

I don't disagree with that, truthfully. It's just that I think it has a valid story purpose for what he's setting up. It's not really meant to be fair and Ranma calls Hild out on it.

I don't know what he's setting up.  But even if there are plot flags that need to be cleared here, that just means that he's set the bar higher for himself.  Not even trying to reach that bar ... well, I've already said quite a bit about that, so no need to repeat myself.

Heck, about half an hour after reading your post, I figured out a way to keep the dragon and work scamming into hellish torture, making it more fitting.  I even thought of how to justify dragging Nabiki to Hell for just the price of a nice bottle of Scotch, but that involves changing the earlier chapter so that Hild is actively pretending to be a homeless fiancee.  So, most of the obvious plot flags kept.

Of course, maybe the scene isn't as great on paper as it seems in my head.  But I've convinced myself that it's doable.  At least a token attempt on Ozz's part would have been respectable.

Or to put it another way, that scene could feel much more legit keep the punishment the same, but replace Nabiki with Genma.  Given that you're familiar with Ranma 1/2, I won't bother to explain since it ought to be self explanatory.

Hah. I always figure it'll be some sort of Neko-ken related torment for him.

Heh. Pit of starving pandas. :)

@Yuth/Drac

Spoiler: ShowHide

"Why would Hild target Nabiki?"  I think Drac raised that same point in the old HiMA thread, and I think we all wanted to know the answer to that then.

Regarding the off-screen torture, I'm of two minds.  On one hand, writing out a controversial scene is usually better than not writing the scene (challenge yourself and rise to the challenge!, and such).  On the other hand, if the writer isn't even going to try to make it seem anything but plot railroading, what's the point?

[Anastasia]

What's this? More spoilers?!

[spoiler]

Tongue-in-cheek.  Ozz was the prereader for that fic, wasn't he?

Not that I'm aware of. The only beta listed is Obsidian Fox. I do remember Ozzallos plugged it in his profile once or twice. That was back before Haigeki went wrong.

I don't know what he's setting up.  But even if there are plot flags that need to be cleared here, that just means that he's set the bar higher for himself.  Not even trying to reach that bar ... well, I've already said quite a bit about that, so no need to repeat myself.

Heck, about half an hour after reading your post, I figured out a way to keep the dragon and work scamming into hellish torture, making it more fitting.  I even thought of how to justify dragging Nabiki to Hell for just the price of a nice bottle of Scotch, but that involves changing the earlier chapter so that Hild is actively pretending to be a homeless fiancee.  So, most of the obvious plot flags kept.

Of course, maybe the scene isn't as great on paper as it seems in my head.  But I've convinced myself that it's doable.  At least a token attempt on Ozz's part would have been respectable.

For now I'm just gonna see if my speculation is right. if I'm on target - and I'm honestly confident I am - then it makes sense within those confines. If not, you're probably right. Hopefully he'll write fast enough so that we can find out soon.

Heh. Pit of starving pandas. :)

Congratulations, my nose got cleaned out via sudden soda and laughter.