DM Nagging: It's pretty much my job

[Anastasia]

IRC log postings of general interest from today. Two points 1. This touches on some interesting things and it's worth having posted for reference. 2. It shows the sheer scale of effort I put into things, as well as the time I spend thinking about seemingly trivial aspects, as well as worldbuilding through mechanics.

<Seira> I did actually want to ask how cleric spells work
> Sure, fire. What about them?
<Seira> Can some deity steal your spell and provide it?
> Like if Lixer saw you cast Seira's super boom boom, could he provide it to his faithful?
> Just theoretically.
<Seira> If Lixer saw Seira's cleric cast a spell thematically drawing on Seira and her goldenfire, and decided to give it to his clerics
> It really depends. In this case, Lixer simply couldn't manage goldenfire - the same way Seira couldn't manage an evil spell.
<Seira> So Kossuth could?
> In a general sense, Kossuth could provide any possible fire, but he has an ability that's an explicit exception to the rules there regarding fire. Since he's the supreme authority on fire in Creation.
> So not a good example due to that exception.
<Seira> Mmm
<Seira> So Kossuth and Lathander could do it
> But say someone else?
> Possibly. It depends a lot. Lemme elaborate a bit.
<Seira> It also ties into how some arcane spells can be granted to Cleric of X
<Seira> I'm trying to understand whether that X is doing something different
> First of all, the deity has to be able to grant the spell. So if they can't (opposed alignment descriptors usually), they can't grant the spell.  Mentioned and obvious, worth repeating. Secondly, does the deity understand it enough and it is not something opposed to them otherwise. If Kossuth sees Auril cast one of her high level ice spells, he's not going to grant and copy it regardless. He's the source of all fire, not the source of all winter. (More)
<Seira> Right
> Mechanically a deity has to be able to understand the spell (trivial for most with Spellcraft) and either get a copy or recreate it, the difficulty varies by deity. Ones who can make up magic on the spot usually are better at it, the ones with supreme eldritch knowledge and the like.  Next, is it something they want to copy? Ego, personality and the like matter here. Finally, it's bad manners usually do to it, which matter more to some than others.  Like if Waukeen wanted to copy one of your spells, she'd ask and expect you to do the same. I mean she'd almost certainly say yes since you're allies, but it's simple politeness.
> Finally, they have to choose to make it available to clerics. Some clerics have spells they've developed and haven't spread, the deity may not grant them to others. It's really up to them as an executive decision. Politics matter here.
> Generally, copying the spells of neutrals and spreading them is at best bad form and at worst an insult, with the proviso that it applies if the spell is meant to be secret/restricted. If it's a spell everyone's granted, it's generally understood that the cat's going to beout of that bag sooner or later.
> In short? Can the deity grant it and is it not contrary to their portfolio, personal interests and ego? They probably can if they see it and they care to, but politics and the like matter a lot as does simple restraint, or saving something as a trump card.
> You get into more interesting bits of jockeying with it deeper in. Like while not a cleric spell, Dispater's Iron Sheathe has a bit of DRM attached with the material component.
> But really, the best way not to have a really unique spell not copied? Have it be anathema to your enemies or keep it secret, and for the love of everything don't cast it in front of an opposing deity or give them a chance to analyze it while active.
<Seira> Good idea, I should DRM my sorc/wiz spells
> For example: Hell analyzed some of Surru's stat boosters. Interesting at the highest levels, filed away since they have various spells that can do something of the same in various permutations. Mephisto has a spell that applies all six as insight for example, and has long before Surru made his spell. The more generic the spell, the more likely a near clone or clone exists somewhere.
<Seira> Geez, Mephisto is such a little shit
> It's a valid strategy. Expensive components, components you can only get in your domain, the occasional initiate of spell, so on and so forth.
> Mephisto is an asshole, yes.
<Seira> Say, what about dragon-blooded DRM?
<Seira> Did you decide not to go for it at all?
> If you wanna add something like that to restrict who can use a spell, by all means. There's things like Annalise's vampire component spells or fiend, devil or demon component spells in the BoVD.
> It does need a coherent reason to have the component, though.
<Seira> Ah, no
<Seira> I meant the whole 'being dragonblooded gives you extra'
> You  mean the quicken or was there something else?
<Seira> Which makes the spell far more likely to be used by them and not used by others
<Seira> I used quicken but dragonblooded spells offer a bunch of stuff, depending on the spell
> (As an aside, good chat. It's the sort of thing I've spent a lot of time working on and don't really talk about, since it's ultimately just world building through the mechanics.)
<Seira> Like 'you cast it at +1 cl' or 'you cast it on several people instead of just yourself' or yes, the 'you cast it as swift'
> I didn't wanna deal with quicken, but something else coudl be fine.
<Seira> Roger
<Seira> It's ironic
<Seira> I don't need quicken for myself
<Seira> I thought it would be cool for the aspiring draconic dudes
* Kotono nods.
> Lessee, DRM...components are the most extreme type. Generally isolated to spells that have a reason to have it, dealing directly with the component type. Best not used lightly. Like shield of the archons is an archon component spell, but not say holy smite. It has to be really on point and tied to whatever it is.  A component you and yours can provide but not others is a good one. Beatable by ignore material components, admittedly, but not everyone has that in epic. A focus sidesteps that, but can be reused, which limits the chances to exploit it. Expensive components without being specific are a much weaker version, since ignore and people can just pay up if needed. Soft DRM, like dragonblood spells that provide small but permanent benefits on the side don't really prohibit someone from taking a spell, they just encourage a subset to take it.
> Alignment descriptors are good as well, or even just opposed elemental descriptors if you're dealing with elementals.
> Another and much harder to do is to make it so the spell is only palatable or useful for whom you want it to be. Usually requires a lot of thought and is situational.
<Seira> Posted a bunch of responses to you and Eb
> Anyway, work in 10, gonna post some of the latter parts of this chat, I think, it's good stuff worth having on there.
> I'll do nagging posts otherwise tonight.
<Seira> Is it valid to add an alignment component to a spell to use as DRM, even if the spell is not inherently Good or Evil?
> Generally not, no. A spell needs to qualify for an alignment component.
> If you wanna use that, design the spell so that it reasonably qualifies for it.

[Corwin]

What makes an arcane spell (sorc/wiz) qualify as an alignment spell?

[Iron Dragoon]

Let's try 1/4th and see how that goes. Write up a version of AAA with 1/4th and we'll see how that works in play.

Spoiler: ShowHide

Alyssa's Aerial Assembly
Transmutation/Conjuration
Level: Brd 11, Sor/Wiz 11
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25ft + 5ft 2/levels)
Target: One weapon touched
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

With a word and a gesture, the weapon you touch becomes blurred, then sudden splits into copies of itself.

This spell creates one copy per four caster levels of the targeted weapon, which retains all effects of the original weapon. Additionally, the original weapon and all copies become animated as the Dancing Blade spell, with the additional ability to gain the benefits of feats and abilities the caster might have.

Do me a favor and post an attack routine with it, including estimated damage output assuming all hit and damage per hit.

Okay, the following assumes a few things: 1) I haven't further boosted my CL past 30. 2) I haven't boosted my Int bonus past +9. 3) I haven't applied any additional damage spells like Blessing of the Righteous or Weapon of Energy or Vampire Blade or anything. 4) The target weapon I'm copying is my Item Familiar. 5) The creature I'm attacking is a legal target for both Bane and Holy enhancements. 5) Transmuting has already kicked in and I'm now bypassing DR (so round 2). 6) I've chosen to TK attack instead of cast a spell. 7) I have not cast Dolorous Blow, which would double my Crit Threat and Auto-Confirm my crits (Scimitar crit range is 18-20, so with Dolorous Blow, it'd be 16-20). 8) I'm using my TK SLA instead of TK as a spell (Spell TK attack bonus is +5 across the board). 9) Every attack hits for totaling damage (I know it won't, but it makes totaling easier).

Math notes:
Attack bonus is 38. 30 HD+5MotUH+3Cha. The +5 is from GMW, and the +2 is from Bane.
Damage: 1d6 is weapon base. +10 is 3Cha+5GMW+2Bane (It says to consider the enchantment bonus as +2 higher and since to-hit bonuses apply to damage, I'm assuming that applies to damage also). +2d6 is Bane. +2d6 is Holy.

> roll 1d20+38+5+2 TK Weapon: ATK 1
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 64 > [d20=19]
> roll 1d20+38+5+2 TK Weapon: ATK 1 crit confirm
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 59 > [d20=14]
> roll 2d6+20+2d6+2d6 crit
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 38 > [d6=1,4,3,2,3,5]

> roll 1d20+33+5+2 TK Weapon: ATK 2
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 45 > [d20=5]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 33 > [d6=3,4,5,6,5]

> roll 1d20+28+5+2 TK Weapon: ATK 3
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 50 > [d20=15]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 30 > [d6=5,6,5,1,3]

> roll 1d20+23+5+2 TK Weapon: ATK 4
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 36 > [d20=6]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 27 > [d6=5,1,6,4,1]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 1
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 49 > [d20=3]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 28 > [d6=2,5,6,4,1]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 2
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 50 > [d20=4]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 31 > [d6=5,4,5,1,6]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 3
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 48 > [d20=2]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 27 > [d6=4,3,3,6,1]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 4
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 50 > [d20=4]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 30 > [d6=2,6,6,4,2]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 5
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 55 > [d20=9]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 36 > [d6=5,6,3,6,6]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 6
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 51 > [d20=5]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 26 > [d6=1,3,3,4,5]

> roll 1d20+39+5+2 AAA Weapon 7
> roll 1d6+10+2d6+2d6
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 62 > [d20=16]
<Serith> Iddy roll for Serith < 31 > [d6=4,6,5,5,1]

Damage Total: 337 damage.
Out of 11 attacks, 8 were below a 10 roll. Iddy luck strikes again. Assuming those didn't hit:
Damage total: 99 damage.

[Anastasia]

What makes an arcane spell (sorc/wiz) qualify as an alignment spell?

It deals with something that's both thematic to sor/wiz casting and clearly of that alignment. You most often see it with summon monster spells, undead creation and a few other things.

Alignment descriptor spells, barring evil spells, are fairly rare on the ground for sor/wiz. Most are summons.

The SC has...Dragon Breath, Heavenly Host, Light of Lunia, Light of Mercuria, Light of Venya and Wall of Good for possible good descriptor spells. For example, so they're thin on the ground and it's hard to draw much from them, especially since the light spells are the same spell three times, just upgraded a bit each time.

[Corwin]

So are we talking caster intent? Result of spell? Via association (such as from summons and so on)? Attempting to reproduce a Good scenario with arcane magic?

[Anastasia]

Stand Fast is a paladin ability that's literally about spreading your power to the others's defense. Which happens to be what the aura already does in a different way, by boosting their saves and AC. So it does fit thematically.

If the spell already boosts their saves why does it need to also boost their saves using a different mechanic as well? For that matter how can you have stand fast without divine grace? I mean you can rewrite it to say 'you can add your charisma bonus to an ally's save once during the spell duration' so it doesn't have to proc off an ability the spell doesn't grant and most casters of it won't have, but it still feels very kludgy.

edit: and also charisma won't necessarily be very high for clerics and wizards that use the spell. Having it derive from the casting stat would make more sense but I can't think of any spells that function that way.

I just think Stand Fast needs more love? Even I forget to use it, and I actually have it. The current boost is from an aura which really shouldn't give anything extra to people at our level since it won't stack with that they have, whereas the Stand Fast boost might actually help.

I agree that going for caster ability would be more effective than using charisma (all the animated weapon spells use that, for example) but it's okay if this ability is not optimal. A lot of powers give +stat (minimum 1), so if written that way even the cha-deprived could give a +1 boost to AC or to saves for their allies with an immediate action, which would be neat.

I think fair points are raised here all around. Cor, do you want to adjust the spell at all based on this, before anything else?

[Anastasia]

Okay, added the +4 Dex as a note.

Seira's Glorious Visage
Transmutation [Good, Fire]
Level: Clr 10, Pal 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

This spell functions as holy transformation, with several new abilities as noted here.

You gain a +4 sacred bonus to Dexterity.

Your melee and natural weapons are cloaked in flames, dealing an extra 1d8 points of fire damage per strike for every 5 caster levels you have. This stacks with other sources of fire damage, such as a flaming weapon or dragonfire wrath.

You glow with golden flames, providing illumination in a 20ft radius. All allies within 20ft gain a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and a +4 resistance bonus to saving throws against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures. You gain a -20 circumstance penalty to Hide checks for the duration.

Once during the spell as an immediate action, you may bestow you

This spell is a closely guarded secret of Seira's faith and is given to her most capable clerics and paladins.

I'd prefer to spell out the bonuses rather than draw from Holy Transformation, itself a Home spell (since Balmuria doesn't have furry angels). It just sends would-be casters looking through the list for it, especially since to the best of my knowledge only I ever used Holy Transformation. And the original spell sends you further to look at stats of a deva in another section of houserules, so it's really, really time-consuming.

It is, but using a spell that's like x spell is predicated on understanding the spell its based on. The logic is that if you're using a combo spell, you know what your comboing already rather than eating up a lot of words repeating it.

Isn't a gigantic deal beyond elegance, though.

[Anastasia]

So are we talking caster intent? Result of spell? Via association (such as from summons and so on)? Attempting to reproduce a Good scenario with arcane magic?

Caster intent isn't relevant to the descriptors of the spell, save when it's a choice made with the spell (what you summon with a summon monster spell, the dragon breath you choose with dragon breath, ect). The BoED touches on what good magic is, and this isn't a bad place to start. Check page 83.

[Corwin]

I think fair points are raised here all around. Cor, do you want to adjust the spell at all based on this, before anything else?

Sure.

[Corwin]

It is, but using a spell that's like x spell is predicated on understanding the spell its based on. The logic is that if you're using a combo spell, you know what your comboing already rather than eating up a lot of words repeating it.

Isn't a gigantic deal beyond elegance, though.

Sure, but since the original spell references a creature writeup, and both are custom/houseruled, it's honestly more of a chore than looking up a spell should be. In this case I believe elegance should lose out to readability and ease of use.

[Anastasia]

I think fair points are raised here all around. Cor, do you want to adjust the spell at all based on this, before anything else?

Sure.

Cool, lemme know when that's done then.

[Corwin]

Seira's Glorious Visage
Transmutation [Good, Fire]
Level: Clr 10, Pal 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

This spell functions as holy transformation, with several new abilities as noted here.

Your melee and natural weapons are cloaked in flames, dealing an extra 1d8 points of fire damage per strike for every 5 caster levels you have. This stacks with other sources of fire damage, such as a flaming weapon or dragonfire wrath.

You glow with golden flames, providing illumination in a 20ft radius. All allies within 20ft gain a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and a +4 resistance bonus to saving throws against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures. You gain a -20 circumstance penalty to Hide checks for the duration.

As an immediate action once per spell, you may add your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) on the saving throws or CMD of all allies within 20 feet excluding yourself. This bonus lasts for 1 round.

This spell is a closely guarded secret of Seira's faith and is given to her most capable clerics and paladins.

[Corwin]

Compacted Stand Fast to just give flavor (and a single get out of jail free card to the cha-wealthy). Thoughts?

[Ebiris]

I feel like the 'use an immediate action for a boosted effect' part should end the spell. Like how crown of might and similar spells gives you +2 strength but as an immediate action you get +8 strength for one round but it ends the spell.

[Corwin]

That would work for me.

Seira's Glorious Visage
Transmutation [Good, Fire]
Level: Clr 10, Pal 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

This spell functions as holy transformation, with several new abilities as noted here.

Your melee and natural weapons are cloaked in flames, dealing an extra 1d8 points of fire damage per strike for every 5 caster levels you have. This stacks with other sources of fire damage, such as a flaming weapon or dragonfire wrath.

You glow with golden flames, providing illumination in a 20ft radius. All allies within 20ft gain a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and a +4 resistance bonus to saving throws against attacks made or effects created by evil creatures. You gain a -20 circumstance penalty to Hide checks for the duration.

As an immediate action, you may add your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) on the saving throws and CMD of all allies within 20 feet excluding yourself. This bonus lasts for 1 round. The spell ends after you use it in this manner.

This spell is a closely guarded secret of Seira's faith and is given to her most capable clerics and paladins.