Experience costs in an XP-less game

Started by Ebiris, August 14, 2009, 06:21:30 PM

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Corwin

I dunno? Maybe divine power if I feel like it. Maybe like a second AC slot. If they're available tactically with only ASF for an hour, that drawback doesn't bother me.
<Steph> I might have made a terrible mistake

Anastasia

We'll go ahead and try this with limited wish. If it works, great, it can be extend into Wish/Miracle. If not, I can rejigger it a little more.
<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?

Anastasia

#17
Seira used Limited Wish a few days ago to get around a planar block as a result of a successful Blasphemy spell. This touches on how I should resolve these spells versus unique effects that don't have easy counter. This is how I'm going to do it.

Check 1: Does it specifically state a wish/miracle/limited wish can or cannot undo it? If so, work with that guidance. If not, go to check 2.
Check 2: Does the situation have a pre-existing counter spell? If so, if wish/limited wish/miracle can reproduce the counter spell, it does. If it lacks the power to mimic that spell, it can't undo the spell. If no relevant spell to undo the situation is noted, move onto check 3.
Check 3: If the condition is caused by a spell with no noted counter, check the level of the spell. If it is equal or higher than the base level of the limited wish/wish/miracle cast, it cannot be effected. Remember, the wish line of spells work at best at under one level of the spell. Limited wish starts with level 6 magic, wish level 8, ect. This would mean Seira couldn't have countered Blasphemy with Limited Wish by these rules, but she gets a free pass there.  
Check 4: Some effects from spells as well as things caused by ex and su abilities are harder to adjudicate. These will have to be done on a case by case basis. When in doubt, I may call for an opposed caster level check. In the event the ability that caused it is not a spell, I'll use the HD of the creature in question as a caster level check modifier.

Note that wish/limited wish/miracle have no effect Gods or creatures with divine rank. Opposing planar lords and other such primal beings is also beyond the scope of wish spells. No wishing Shar or Asmodeus dead, no matter how much you want to. Further, I'm calling a few things out of bounds:

1. Mimicking banned spells. This should be obvious.
2. Diverting dimensional locks and other anti teleport/plane shift measures. Look, you guys have amazing mobility as it is. My job gets much harder if you can start peeling away the countermeasures against it.
3. Resurrections are still not granted by these spells. If this changes I'll let you know.
4. Allowing defeated outsiders to return to a plane of their demise early.
<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?

Corwin

Like I told you in #e, I'd appreciate a larger pool of spells listed as examples for the harmful ones that can be undone by limited wish.

I also want to bring up my disagreement with treating the limited wish-granted spells as lvl6 equivalents. I said that to me it made more sense to see them as under heighten spell up to lvl7. The reason I bring this nitpicking is so I would have an easy guideline. Say someone uses Twinned Fireball on me, which is lvl3+4=7. Can a Limited Wish undo the effects of it, assuming that normal Fireball is covered by it? What if it's an epic Quickened Twinned Fireball? Etc.
<Steph> I might have made a terrible mistake

Anastasia

Quote from: Corwin on November 17, 2009, 02:18:14 PM
Like I told you in #e, I'd appreciate a larger pool of spells listed as examples for the harmful ones that can be undone by limited wish.

I also want to bring up my disagreement with treating the limited wish-granted spells as lvl6 equivalents. I said that to me it made more sense to see them as under heighten spell up to lvl7. The reason I bring this nitpicking is so I would have an easy guideline. Say someone uses Twinned Fireball on me, which is lvl3+4=7. Can a Limited Wish undo the effects of it, assuming that normal Fireball is covered by it? What if it's an epic Quickened Twinned Fireball? Etc.

I daresay you'd use a healing spell to undo the effects of a fireball, no matter how fancy. I think you just missed the point. Look at the first line again:

Spells that don't have an easy counter

Damage has a very easy counter: Healing. This is for things that fall outside normal, easy rules.
<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?

Corwin

Can a limited wish be used to cancel a spell emulated with another limited wish?

Also, can a limited wish alter the conditions of a spell it can otherwise emulate, so that the target is changed from Personal? This one would come in handy, if I wanted Lagann to use a limited wish to allow me to send the message in the Sending spell and receive the response, for example.
<Steph> I might have made a terrible mistake

Anastasia

Quote from: Corwin on December 01, 2009, 01:17:14 PM
Can a limited wish be used to cancel a spell emulated with another limited wish?

Does the spell have a counter limited wish can mimick? A normal spell could be countered or dispelled with a mimicked greater dispel magic. A mimicked bestow curse could use a raw limited wish(as noted in the spell) to dispel it.  If not, use the guidelines above.  Remember, a mimicked spell is essentially the same spell but with the save of a 7th level spell. Whenever possible, wish uses pre-existing rules it can copy to deal with effects.

QuoteAlso, can a limited wish alter the conditions of a spell it can otherwise emulate, so that the target is changed from Personal? This one would come in handy, if I wanted Lagann to use a limited wish to allow me to send the message in the Sending spell and receive the response, for example.

Case by case basis. Your example isn't a big deal, but as a rule I'd rather not start wholesale changing the functions of spells with this.  I could take some time and draw up exacting rules for how this might work, but I'd rather just use common sense.
<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?

Anastasia

#22
How does this look? Compare/contrast with SRD standard wish.

Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 full round action.
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects:

   *  Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
   * Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
   * Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it's of a prohibited school.
   * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it's of a prohibited school.
   * Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
   * Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
   * Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. Wards and barriers may be bypassed with an opposed caster level check, failure causes the wish to fizzle.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Casting Wish is a great strain on both the Weave and your own body. The effects of limited wish apply to Wish, save that a fourth wish within penalty snuffs the caster's life out due to the strain on his body and soul.

Wish as a spell like ability

Wishes from extraplanar beings such as genies and pit fiends are not as limited as mortal wishes. These wishes draw on their patron to accomplish what they do. They are closer in effect to miracles and may be denied, though this is very rare. Assume that nonmagical or magical goods of up to 25,000 GP may be produced by these, the dead can be raised and statistics may be increased. Other effects may happen at the DM's discretion.

<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?

Corwin

More Limited Wish/Wish questions from me.

Limited Wish can call upon Fireball, making it a lvl7 spell I cast. Can it let me cast an Empowered Fireball instead? A Maximized Fireball? Would it matter if I have the metamagic feat in question, or the answer's the same either way?
<Steph> I might have made a terrible mistake

Anastasia

Quote from: Corwin on January 03, 2010, 08:21:41 AM
More Limited Wish/Wish questions from me.

Limited Wish can call upon Fireball, making it a lvl7 spell I cast. Can it let me cast an Empowered Fireball instead? A Maximized Fireball? Would it matter if I have the metamagic feat in question, or the answer's the same either way?

I don't have any objection to this.
<Afina> Imagine a tiny pixie boot stamping on a devil's face.
<Afina> Forever.

<Yuthirin> Afina, giant parasitic rainbow space whale.
<IronDragoon> I mean, why not?