The Coffee Table

[Dracos]

A chatter/gossip board :P Always should be one.

Anyhow, at a glance at our characters, the generic statement that saving throw type enemies are going to be weaker than normal seems true.  I'd bet anything without an hp buff will probably have trouble sticking around.  Single enemy type setups are going to be much more fragile than usual due to the high amount of team tier buffs that happen in that case (Everyone at least getting +5 or +6 to hit for instance).  We've got a large ac difference going on, so anything likely to hit me is going to nail the others frequently (27-10=+17 for a 50 percent.  17 versus a 20 ac means only a 3 is needed).  So a variety of enemies may assist there as well.

Arcane magic is non-existent in our repetoire, so the classical batman problem of preparation won't exist likely.  What we've got won't be super flexible based on what we know.  We're a generally short range group.  I should put a bow on but mostly we vastly drop in effectiveness on anything 40 feet out.  Our party tends to have very good hp for this level, so it should be fine with enemies that can do about 15 or so a hit.  High mobility will probably serve well as it hits at my weak point, and none of us are particularly mobility fiends, but we've got a surprising number of teleport things as well.

Counters would generally involve some degree of ranged and melee folks.  Possibly some arcane stuff.  None of us can fly, but at level 6, that's a very rare thing to see and I don't think it will appear at any time anyway.  Fire resistance is more valuable than normal with desert wind in play offering a lot of fire attacks.

Anyhow, let's see, randomness.  Debuff spells have a lot of potential.  Lots of mobile enemies to split us up and avoid full attacks and flanking.  Generally, at least 10 enemies.

nyum.

[Navilee]

Your AC is insane for the level.  Really, that is the only thing I can say on that.

And that is why I am thinking of taking that PrC, to expand my magic selection to something potentially more useful; it still won't match an actual arcane blaster, but it would be better regardless.

Also thinking of maybe making an arcane character, seeing as we've got roguish-types up the wazoo.  Or not.  Still undecided..

[Merc]

Yeah, it's really surprising we have no full arcane caster, given that hey, no arcane spell failure from armor due to class defense.

I'm actually messing with a warblade/wizard/bladestorm blade build to replace crusader maybe (depends on what Zeph plays too, I guess).

Navi's earlier question about warforged composite plating trait and warforged body feats actually becomes relevant if so, though.

One of the things I'm playing around with for that is a warforged if I did that, so wondering how that'd fit against the class defense bonus.

It's kinda lame right now because warforged have to deal with a 5% ASF from it, and being armor, I'd assume it doesn't stack with class defense bonus, so existence of spell failure in a game with class defense bonus just bites big time. And really, who in their right mind would take that Unarmored Body feat that's recommended for casters? You have to PAY a feat to LOSE armor? What the flippity fuck? Who was the genius at WotC that thought that beauty up?

I do like my crusader build too, so I might stick with it instead of switching to warblade. Warblade is more of a "well, how many crusaders -do- we have, anyhow?" thing, since I think Zeph was thinking of a sorcerer caster (which has synergy with crusader), and you have a bard/crusader. Three crusaders seems a bit much, especially since I'm focusing on devoted spirit and you're on white raven. That just leaves being stoned for Zeph.

Roguish type isn't really a big deal however, as Drac is the only traditional rogue type, with sneak attack and stealth-mode camoflauge. You're a bard, so you're a generalist with leadership buffs/manuevers, and I'm a only a rogue in the sense of skill numbers, otherwise I'm almost purely a tank (and sadly, Drac has +1 AC, despite me having better manuevers/feats for tanking).

Also, if Navi decides to go the arcane caster route instead, I'll probably switch changeling combat rogue for shifter bard to go with crusader.

Right now we should probably wait and see what Rin and Zeph plan on though. Rin hasn't updated his sheet in a good while (he is still using armor instead of class defense) and he was originally planning a tank I think (not sure though, since his character has low/average CON). And Zeph is probably still looking through book.

Will they be done by sunday? =/

[Merc]

Additional note in case you didn't notice in IRC, Drac: You don't get the racial halfling rogue substitution level anymore, since you're not a rogue. So no Thief's Luck. =)

Also, you have Jump as having a dex bonus instead of the str penalty in your skill ranks.

[Dracos]

Magic boots for the jump thing.

Good point for the thief's luck thing.

[Dracos]

I'm technically not a rogue really at all anymore.  I'm almost pure fighter type.

[Dracos]

Wait, only +1 AC now?

Whee, I don't feel so guilty anymore about being ridiculously over party AC~

[Merc]

Yeah, I forgot to take multiclassing into account when I did my class defense bonus. It upped my armor class by two points.

And you're still ridiculous. You're the highest damage and defense (in particular, higher than the two shield-tanks), and pretty damn high health.

To be fair, that's due to the fact that class defense bonus renders "max dexterity bonus" penalty obsolete, and you're a dexterity build with no restrictions on that while essentially wearing plate.

[Dracos]

Yup.  I'm a single attribute fighter.  The limitation I would've had being armor vanished, and instead of having something equal to it, your own suggestion to go fighter instead of rogue had me wearing plate.

Given, for those 3 points of AC, I'm way more vulnerable to spells, flatfootedness, etc, but that's a for now thing since swordsage gets those rogue benefits eventually

[Navilee]

Yeah, waiting to see Zeph's build 'fore I decide to switch over; thankfully, can butcher all the flavor text of my current character over to a caster with relatively little changing.

And if he does take a full castah, I will probably not worry about a PrC to expand casting capabilities at the cost of buffs; dat's kinda my thang.

[Merc]

Jon did a quickie mod of the Warforged class.

<Jon> ok. warforged don't have built-in armor. they're also no longer immune to poison, sleep, etc. they can heal normally, but don't get benefits from repair wounds.
<Merc> I assume that they remain vulnerable to rust and the wood/metal affecting spells, correct? Just for healing purposes, they don't have a problem with healing spells and don't benefit from repair spells.
<Jon> yes
<Merc> *nods*
<Jon> that's my best quick attempt at a balanced conversion of 4e warforged to 3.5e
<Jon> oh, and you give up the slam attack
<Jon> (that's from the built-in armor)

Was okay with it at first, but in hindsight, not sure if it's balanced. Still have light fortification, true, but also have two ability penalties, and overall it feels like it's weaker than a dwarf. Given that we're not really dealing with food stuff and I've never really seen a character end up right between 0 and -10 and having stability concerns, those abilities don't feel particularly worthwhile in comparison to what other LA+0 classes get with one good stat and one bad stat, and here a warforged has two bad ones. Also, light fortification would probably also come from built-in armor, so feels weird to keep it without some sort of built-in armor, but if you add some armor, race starts becoming too good instead.

***

Warforged
Racial Traits:
* +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom: Warforged are resilient, but are only recently starting to experience life outside of waging war. As such, they sometimes take actions that are less than wise.
* Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged are medium-sized constructs that have been given sentience and free will. As a result of powerful and complex enchantments, they have evolved into creatures that combine aspects of both constructs and humanoid creatures, as detailed below.
~ Warforged lack most of the traits normal to constructs. For example, they have a constitution score, they do not gain low-light vision, darkvision or immunities, and they can be raised or ressurected, etc.
~ Warforged do not need to eat, sleep or breathe, and require. Although they do not need sleep, they must still rest before preparing spells. Similar to elves, warforged can meditate for 4 hours, and gain the same benefit as other creatures having rested for 8 hours.
~ As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells and effects that target either living creatures or constructs, whether helpful or harmful.
~ When a warforged's hit points drop below 0, but remain greater than -10, a warforged automatically stabilizes as he goes 'inert'.
~ Warforged gain a +2 racial bonus on intimidate checks, but suffer a -2 penalty on diplomacy checks. Their difficulty in relating to other creatures makes them seem aloof or even hostile.
~ The mind of a warforged does not work like a living creature's, granting them a +2 racial bonus on Will saves.
~ The plating used to build a warforged provides them with a +1 natural armor bonus.
*Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None.
*Favored Class: A warforged's favored class fits whatever role it was built to fullfill. YOu may choose any one class as the warforge'd favored class, but once you make this choice, you cannot change it.

***

Thoughts:
-I actually considered keeping -2 Cha instead of -2 Wis, but then they'd be too much like dwarves. Regardless, if warforged is losing a lot of stuff like composite plating, light fortification, slam attack, and all the immunities it had, it needs some less suck. Reducing it to just one penalty stat is getting there, and it's closer in line with other races. Alternatively, could have added a +2 Str, since the original description for the racial ability mods states warforged are 'powerful'. Still, having two good and two bad stats seemed a bit much. Seems better to have one good and one bad instead, with some minor bonuses like most other LA+0 races.

-Repair spells use d8 instead of Cure spell's d6, so it's just on average +1 HP per spell rank, and you can't say, metamagic chain the spell to hit 2+ allies unless there's a group of warforged in party. They are still vulnerable to stuff like disable construct, heat/chill metal, repel metal/stone/wood, rust spells, etc. Wouldn't say repair spells are overpowered then, in fact they kinda lose more than they gain here due to the number of vulnerabilities. Minor penalty then.

-Warforged don't really sleep, so needing to rest for 8 hours to prepare spells seemed weird. Hey, if elves can do it in 4 hours, so can they. It's really more flavor than really helpful anyhow, unless a DM plans on a lot of nightly ambushes, and even then, warforged suck at perception unlike elves. Minor upgrade then.

-The skill effects added essentially cancel themselves out balance-wise, but reflect the race's status in eberron realm as a creature of war, while also reflecting how they have trouble relating to other races. Seemed decent replacement for losing charisma penalty in terms of flavor, and doesn't really break balance in any way.

-Light fortification and the immunities are pretty darn good. Not sure if the removal of cha penalty and getting +2 will saves and +1 natural armor is a good balance for that, but it seemed to fit, so something to play with there maybe. Natural armor is still not 'great', as it's just +1 bonus, bu it doesn't interfere with class defense bonus, and even though you can't get bracers of natural armor, you could get something else in that arms slot instead really. +2 will saves also seems reasonable when considering halflings get a +1 to all saves (so a total +3). If you assume the other racial traits are balanced to give no overall benefit, then these are the ones to compare to other classes. I'd actually say they're just a little bit weaker than some other LA+0 races, but they get a lot of varied stuff, so it feels okay.

-As I'm considering playing warforged and designed this modification, I might be biased about it's balance in relation to other core classes like elf, dwarf, shifter, etc. I do think it's fairly balanced, but would like thoughts from other players and Jon.

Other non-racial thoughts/changes:
-Remove feats: Adamantine Boy, Ironwood Body, Mithral Body, Unarmored Body, Second Slam. They don't really make sense anymore.
-Modify feats: Improved Fortification now requires BAB+10 and Fortified Plating feat. Since you don't get light fortification as a racial, it seems obvious this would have to either be removed or modified. I chose to modify it, by increasing the level at which you can get it (from +6 to +10, and requiring a new feat being added to represent the light fortification).
-New feat: Fortified Plating (requires Warforged and BAB+4), improves natural armor by +1 and gives 25% chance to avoid critical strikes or sneak attacks. As mentioned, just getting straight out immunity would be overpowered probably. Since the BAB of the prior ability was raised by four, made this require BAB+4. I figured this would give the light fortification effect, but seemed a little weak to only give the equivalent of a +1 enhancement (1000gp) for a feat, given feat economy. Since it was originally due to plating, makes sense to 'improve' the racial plating by making the +1 NAC into +2 NAC. Since you can't get it at level 1, either, it doesn't seem overpowered either. By level 4 if you were another race with good BAB, you'd be able to afford the same effects as magic items, and have a feat free unlike a warforged, so trade-off seems decent for power.

[Dracos]

15:41   Merc   Hey Drac. You have any goldilock comments on the warforged thing? Powerful, weak, just right?
15:42   Merc   Also, Zeph: Go work on your character if you're going to join. Game is sunday, you know. =p
15:42   Dracos_at_work   mmm.
15:42   Dracos_at_work   I'd say borderline too weak.
15:42   Dracos_at_work   I dunno, +1 NA is pretty nice.
15:43   Dracos_at_work   But it seems there's almost too little benefits going on.
15:43   Dracos_at_work   I'd toss a skill thing, or that 25 percent fortification thing or something.
15:43   Dracos_at_work   Not anything big, just a small boost.
15:43   Dracos_at_work   Preferrably not combat related.
15:44   Merc   No, the fortification thing feels like it'd be too big a boost. And yeah, I did feel it was a bit weaker than normal, but wanted opinions before I tried boosting it.
15:44   Dracos_at_work   Like perhaps a +4 on opposed Sense Motive: Warforged are foreign and difficult to get a read on due to their ability to simply lock their mechanical faces?
15:45   Dracos_at_work   On a random thought, I suspect my build will make fortification more common in this game than any game I've ever seen.
15:45   Merc   I was thinking going with something similar to what they get in 4e. They can attach/embed things into their body, making it harder to disarm them, and they have bonuses to sleigh of hand on concealed weapons and such.
15:46   Dracos_at_work   Yeah, both of those are kinda reasonable.
15:46   Dracos_at_work   I'd still error on the side of non-combat type bonuses to bring it up to average
15:46   Dracos_at_work   Dwarves for instance get stone sense type stuff and poison resistance.
15:47   Merc   Yeah, I don't want to really tread on the dwarves' toes though. Which is part of why I stuck to the -2 wis instead of -2cha.
15:47   Dracos_at_work   I agree there.
15:47   Dracos_at_work   Technically, dwarfs have an extra disad in movement speed.
15:48   Dracos_at_work   and I suppose you do as well in vulnerability to additional spells
15:49   Merc   Yeah, I'm mostly using dwarf as guide on balancing race, but at same time don't want to be too similar.

My thoughts.

[Merc]

*laughs* "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post."

I look, and go "Wait...that's what I'm posting. No wait...the times are wrong, they're two hours back. Oh, posted by Dracos."

Anyhow...Can't really think of anything not really combat-ish for a warforged race though...

Also, hrm...3.5e actually has warforged attach/embed rules already.

[Dracos]

Boss/Setting info? :3

*is slow at writing background, more time is welcome to do it*

[Merc]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133619 <-- Interesting thread on artificer question that I hadn't thought of.

Note that I would probably take the warforged racial substitution "Tools of War" instead of "Craft Homunculus" (though I might grab Craft Construct at a later level, although unlikely) if I switched to playing artificer.

Still, the question about how early level craft reserve pool is handled is interesting. The first reply's suggested answer is interesting, but feels overpowered. The one by DuskEclipse/Zagan seems interesting and more balanced.