Odds and ends

[Ebiris]

I'll just echo Merc's sentiments. Doesn't much bother me, so go for it.

[Ebiris]

As for the Shining Blade, DR/silver alone makes it awesome. I'd certainly consider it just as strongly as Hellreaver for a paladin type.

[Anastasia]

Yeah, I'm wavering on if silver's too good for it. If it stays it may end up the capstone, since a two-part DR is really good.

[Merc]

Looking over your shining blade fix, I think you might have overdone it especially since you lowered the entry level. It's pretty strong for just losing the crappy spellcasting progression from the original. I would say you should actually have increased the entry level with how strong it is, and even then might want to shift around some stuff.

The shock blade ability has an incredible amount of use per day times. Assuming conservatively a paladin with +3 charisma going into this, by level 15 he can use it 13/day and lasts 13 rounds. A bit much? Either make it take a move or standard action to activate and just don't restrict it, or the amount of times it can be used needs to decrease.

I would have said put Holy Protection at level 1, with it increasing every three levels (at 4, 7, 10) +4. It's a bit more spread out that way.

Mettle should probably be available a few levels earlier.

I think I might have split the bonus of the holy/axiomatic blades, made them available at same levels with you having to pick one or the other, and then later on you can get both benefits at once.

The DR/silver is pretty strong. It's not bad as a capstone, I think, but being able to get it by level 15 seems kind of early maybe? I don't have the best feel for balance post level 12 or so though.

[Anastasia]

Looking over your shining blade fix, I think you might have overdone it especially since you lowered the entry level. It's pretty strong for just losing the crappy spellcasting progression from the original. I would say you should actually have increased the entry level with how strong it is, and even then might want to shift around some stuff.

Shining Blade isn't meant to be a caster PrC and never really was, so why pretend it is? It's intended for fighters, rangers, paladins - if they don't mind losing casting progression - those sorts. I do agree about the entry pre-reqs being a little bit easy. K:R 7 ranks is a problem for non paladins short of a dip, unless Apt Learner gets involved. That's the main tax to it - you either get in much later thanks to it being cross class, you dip into something to get the ranks, or you're a paladin/cleric type who sacrifices casting to get in.

Is that enough? At the least I'm going to raise the BAB requirement to +6 to prevent it being gone into earlier.

The shock blade ability has an incredible amount of use per day times. Assuming conservatively a paladin with +3 charisma going into this, by level 15 he can use it 13/day and lasts 13 rounds. A bit much? Either make it take a move or standard action to activate and just don't restrict it, or the amount of times it can be used needs to decrease.

I'm going to tone down the number of times it can be used per day. Being a swift action allows it to be brought o bear without wasting a round, which is often vital in combat. That's one of the main improvements, preventing you from standing around for a round just to get your class power available.

I would have said put Holy Protection at level 1, with it increasing every three levels (at 4, 7, 10) +4. It's a bit more spread out that way.

Mettle should probably be available a few levels earlier.

I pushed those back to make it a little less dip-bait. I may fiddle those a bit still, but that's the reasoning at work.

I think I might have split the bonus of the holy/axiomatic blades, made them available at same levels with you having to pick one or the other, and then later on you can get both benefits at once.

I'd rather not get so finicky, my preference is to make the class work in a straightforward manner.

The DR/silver is pretty strong. It's not bad as a capstone, I think, but being able to get it by level 15 seems kind of early maybe? I don't have the best feel for balance post level 12 or so though.

Let's say level 16 since I plan to bump up the BAB requirement.  By that point damage reduction 10/whatever is common enough. Amid CR 16s, planetars have 10/evil*, an old black dragon have 10/magic, a cornugon has 10/silver and good, a greater stone golem has 10/adamantine and a nightwalker has 15/good and silver. So it's about balanced for that level.

*My personal opinion is that a planetar should have a second component suited to the ethos it follows. So that should be 10/evil and x.

[Anastasia]

This is an attempt to de-suck Shining Blade of Heironeous. Wish me luck, I'll need it!

This is take 2 on a beta. I tweaked several things, rebalanced and added a final blade ability. Let me know what you think.

It's modularly designed. While it's flavored for the Triad, a chaotic good character could use it with minor tweaking. Change axiomatic to anarchic and change DR 10/silver and evil to DR 10/cold iron and evil and you're set. By the same token you could convert this to a PrC for LE or CE, though it would take a little more work.

From a design perspective I took the power of the class and souped it up. It's faster to use, you get more out of it and can use it more often. No longer are the class abilities outdone by buying a weapon appropriate for your character level. Even taking into account that change, the class was still half empty. So I added abilities to the odd levels, loosely tied to the blade ability the level before it.

This class isn't designed for paladins or clerics. While one could take it if they sacrifice casting, they're not the primary target. This is for a pious fighter, a scout, a ranger, a monk perhaps. Something like that. I severed it's ties to divine casting altogether.  

Shining Blade of the Triad

Hit Dice: d10

Requirements

Alignment

Lawful Good.

Base Attack Bonus

+6

Skills

Knowledge(Religion) 7 ranks

Feat

True Believer

Special

Must worship Ilmater, Tyr or Helm.

Class Skills

The Shining Blade of the Triad's class skills are: Concentration, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(Religion), Profession, Swim.

Skill Points Per Level

2 + intelligence modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A Shining Blade of the Triad is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as all armor and shields.

Class Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Spells per day
1	+1	+2	+0	+0	Shock Blade	-
2	+2	+3	+0	+0	Electric Endurance	-
3	+3	+3	+1	+1	Holy Blade	-
4	+4	+4	+1	+1	Holy Protection+1	-
5	+5	+4	+1	+1	Axiomatic Blade	-
6	+6	+5	+2	+2	Mettle, Holy Protection+2	-
7	+7	+5	+2	+2	Thundering Blade	-
8	+8	+6	+2	+2	Sacred Body 5/evil, Holy Protection+3	-
9	+9	+6	+3	+3	Brilliant Blade	-
10	+10	+7	+3	+3	Sacred Body 10/silver and evil, Holy Protection+4	-

Shock Blade (Su)

A Shining Blade of the Triad can cause a weapon he is holding to crackle with heavenly lightning as a swift action. This causes the weapon to deal an extra 1d6 electricity damage on a successful hit.  This lasts for a number of rounds equal to the character's level in this class. This effect lasts even if he drops it or gives to another person to wield, though he can dismiss the effect as a swift action on his turn. He may do this a number of times per day equal to his Shining Blade of the Triad level.

This damage stacks with a shocking weapon.

Electric Endurance (Ex)

A Shining Blade of the Triad is blessed by the Triad, able to call down heavenly lightning. As a result of his constant exposure to electricity and his ability to channel it safely, he gains resistance to electricity 10.

Holy Blade (Su)

At 3rd level, whenever the Shining Blade of the Triad imbues a weapon with Shock Blade, he also bestows the weapon with holy energies. This causes the weapon to deal an extra 2d6 holy damage on each successful hit, as well as count as good to bypass damage reduction. This damage applies only against evil targets.

This damage stacks with a holy weapon.

Holy Protection (Su)

By 4th level, the Shining Blade of the Triad is favored by his patrons, protected by their divine blessings. This manifests as a deflection bonus to armor class. It is +1 at level 4, +2 at level 6, +3 at level 8 and +4 at level 10.

Axiomatic Blade (Su)

On reaching 5th level, the Shining Blade of the Triad also imbues his weapons with the power of law. This causes the weapon to deal an extra 2d6 points of axiomatic damage on each successful hit, as well as count as lawful to bypass damage reduction. This damage applies only against chaotic targets.

This damage stacks with an axiomatic weapon.

Mettle (Ex)

At 6th level, the Shining Blade of the Triad can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower of fortitude. If they makes a successful will or fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), they instead completely negate the effect. An unconscious or sleeping Shining Blade of the Triad does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Thundering Blade (Su)

At 7th level, the fury of the three empowers the Shining Blade of the Triad. Thunderous sonic energy erupts with each strike, dealing an extra 1d6 sonic damage on a successful hit. In addition, any target struck must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + Shining Blade of the Triad class level + strength modifier) or be deafened.  A target can only be forced to save against deafening once per round, subsequent strikes in the same round do not add further chances to deafen. The sonic damage is still dealt, and being struck again in a later round allows another chance to be deafened.

Creatures who do not take sonic damage from this attack through resistance or immunity cannot be deafened.

Sacred Body (Su)

By 8th level, the Shining Blade of the Triad is nearly one with the glory of the Realms Above. As a result his flesh is not entirely mortal, celestial aspects blessing him. This grants him damage reduction 5/evil. At level 10 this improves to damage reduction 10/silver and evil.

Brilliant Blade (Su)

On obtaining 9th level, the Shining Blade of the Triad pours the pure, blinding majesty of the Triad into his weapon. This causes the weapon to function as a brilliant energy and ghost touch weapon. Unlike a normal brilliant energy weapon, this ability does not inhibit the affected weapon from damaging undead, constructs and objects.

These overlap with a brilliant energy or ghost touch weapon, as stacking is irrelevant.

[Ebiris]

Let's say level 16 since I plan to bump up the BAB requirement.  By that point damage reduction 10/whatever is common enough. Amid CR 16s, planetars have 10/evil*, an old black dragon have 10/magic, a cornugon has 10/silver and good, a greater stone golem has 10/adamantine and a nightwalker has 15/good and silver. So it's about balanced for that level.

That's for monsters, though. Compare it with a Barbarian (DR 4/-) or a Warlock (DR 4/cold iron) and it's way higher. A Green Star Adept would have DR 10/adamantine at 16th level if it entered the PrC at 6th level, but it's a class mostly built around making yourself into a golem.

edit: Dread Necromancer gets DR 8/bludgeoning and magic by level 16.

[Anastasia]

Others do get DR close to it.  Celestial Mystic, Divine Crusader and Champion of Gwynharwyf(DR 5/- with the assumption that DR /- counts for more in most reckonings) get DR 10 as capstones. I feel DR/magic or DR/evil or good isn't all that great as a capstone. It's not bad, but by the time you get it, most serious enemies can bypass it.  I feel adding a second component makes it a more rewarding capstone and one likely to have a bigger impact on your character.


KO NOTE: FROM HERE ON BELOW FOR HOUSE RULE CHANGES

(Disregard all of you, this is for my own bookkeeping.)

[Anastasia]

Alignment Changes

After talking with all of you we're going to add Exalted, Axiomatic, Anarchic and Vile as alignments.  I'm going to do a summary here and post more in the rules thread. This is what you guys need to know for now. Questions are welcome.

Classes

Any class that requires an alignment component of law, chaos, good or evil can also have the more extreme version. As an example: A paladin can be Lawful Exalted with no penalty, nor is there any penalty to being 'only' a lawful good paladin. This is essentially the same thing as a paladin with exalted feats versus one who doesn't.

Feats

Exalted, Vile, Axiomatic and Anarchic feats require you to have the matching alignment to take. This is no practical change, anyone aligned enough to take an alignment feat should be that alignment anyway. Other feats tied to alignment do not require this. You don't need to be Axiomatic to take Law Devotion, for example.

Magic

Any spell that functions on an alignment also functions on it's more extreme version. Holy Word works on both evil and vile creatures in the exact same way, for example.

Monsters and alignment

Creatures who are not outsiders or other paragons of alignment are unchanged by these new rules. For example, most SRD standard elves are still chaotic good. There are a few who are anarchic or exalted, just like any other normal variation. There may be a few more paragons of good or chaos amid them than average, all due to the fact that more of them start at chaotic good. It's numbers.

Creatures who are set as always being a particular alignment, as noted in their statistics, are treated differently. Most of these are outsiders or similar creatures, dedicated to an alignment on a primal nature. Any creature with an always alignment is about 50% likely to be the more extreme version. In addition, creatures that possess the appropriate alignment subtype are even more likely to be that alignment. However, not all of these creatures must be so extreme. A lawful evil devil would contrast with a lawful vile or axiomatic vile devil.

[Ebiris]

I was talking to Cor about how I prefer Pathfinder's approach to skills and this came up, in Pathfinder you can determine the properties of a magic item via spellcraft.

Considering the Identify spell basically serves as a small tax on magic items, and is 'all or nothing' which generally leads to us ignoring items till we have them identified then throwing them away if they have detrimental properties, turning it into a skill check would make their use flow more naturally, letting us pick up and work with stuff we find on an adventure, and by having certain properties revealed only at certain DCs, allows cursed items to seem initially appealing and turn them into viable traps and RP fodder.

So yeah, I'm suggesting we use this as a house rule.

[Anastasia]

Link me to the page on the Pathfinder SRD where this comes up? I'd like to review the rule before anything else.

[Ebiris]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/spellcraft

[Anastasia]

Looks good, I have no objection to it. What do the rest of you think?

[Merc]

no issues

[Corwin]

No objections to identifying magic item properties via Spellcraft+DM.