Odds and ends

[Anastasia]

Team Bimbo lacks the intellect/skill points to boost it as much as I'd like! But yeah, unless I decide on something I want to suffer to boost it, it's going to be going up very slowly.

Do what Aaeru did and shack up with a good aligned fey. Seemed to work for her.

>_>

[Merc]

Looking at Yuth's saves, got a different result than you, Ko:

Level 1: Took Monk/Fighter. Monk gives +2/+2/+2. Fighter gives +2/+0/+0. Gestalt is +2/+2/+2

Level 2: Monk 2/Fighter 2. Monk is +3/+3/+3. That's an improvement of +1/+1/+1.
Fighter gives +3/+0/+0. That's an improvement of +1/+0/+0. So the gestalt is +1/+1/+1

Level 3: Monk 3/Fighter 3. Monk is +3/+3/+3. That's an improvement of +0/+0/+0.
Fighter gives +3/+1/+1. That's an improvement of +0/+1/+1. So gestalt is +0/+1/+1.

Level 4: Monk 4/PW1. Monk is +4/+4/+4. That's an improvement of +1/+1/+1.
PW gives +2/+0/+0. It's level 1, so improvement is also +2/+0/+0.
Comparing, gestalt would be +2/+1/+1 as fort is better for the psychic warrior level, but ref/will improve better on monk side.

Level 5: Monk 5/PW2. Monk is +4/+4/+4 for an improvement of +0/+0/+0. PW2 is +3/+0/+0 for an improvement of +1/+0/+0. Gestalt improvement is +1/+0/+0.

Level 6: Monk 6/PW3. Monk is +5/+5/+5 for an improvement of +1/+1/+1. PW3 is +3/+1/+1 for an improvement of +0/+1/+1. Gestalt improvement is +1/+1/+1.

Summary:
1) +2/+2/+2
2) +1/+1/+1
3) +0/+1/+1
4) +2/+1/+1
5) +1/+0/+0
6) +1/+1/+1

Sum total for class modifiers: +7/+6/+6 (Fort/Ref/Will)

Adding in ability score modifiers (+2/+3/+3): +9/+9/+9

Comparing with yours, Ko: You added +0/+0/+0 for level 3 instead...

[Corwin]

Sure thing!

Diplomacy: 5ranks +2bluff synergy +2sense motive synergy +2perfection bonus/Sacred Vow +2circumstances bonus/Nymph's Kiss +3charisma modifier =16 total

Anything relevant from the Vow of Poverty (and other stuff I took) is listen down in Notes in shorthand, which I hope helps.

[Anastasia]

Thanks Cor!

[Anastasia]

---A Guide On How Saves Work In Gestalt---

Curious as how to saves in gestalt work? Worried your numbers might be off? I'm here to help! Let's start with what gestalt says about how saves work. Oh, and remember this is just talking about base save bonuses. It doesn't factor in the boosts from attributes, feats or class features. Those are added in after all this is determined and are irrelevant to this.

Base Saving Throw Bonuses

For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.

Makes sense so far? You choose the best saves from both classes and take them. In this example, a fighter has first level base save bonuses of fort+2, reflex+0 and will+0 while the wizard has fort+0, reflex+0 and will+2. This fighter//wizard takes the +2 fort from fighter and the +2 will from wizard to get fort+2, ref+0 and will+2 for this level up. Not bad.  This is the easiest part to figure out, since level one is clear and simple. Things get a little trickier when you start to combine classes past first level, especially when you multiclass.

Let's say next level he decides that fighter was just a dip and wants to take ranger 1 and wizard 2. This makes him a fighter 1/ranger 1//wizard 2. His base save bonuses are fort+2, reflex+0 and will+2 from last level. Checking ranger, he sees that he gets fort+2, reflex+2 and will+0, while wizard 3 grants fort+0, reflex+0, and will+3. Remember that this doesn't mean he gains +3 to his base will save, but that the value rose by one. This doesn't change in gestalt. In other words, a level two wizard gains a +1 save bonus to will. Okay, so you look at that and you combine them again. You get fort+2, reflex+2 and will+1 for your base save bonuses for level 2. You add these to the previous values of fort+2, reflex+0 and will+2 from the last level for a grand total of fort+4, reflex+2 and will+3. With me so far?

Next level he decides to stay the course. It's time for ranger 2 and wizard 3! He's a fighter 1/ranger 2//wizard 3 gestalt character. His base save bonuses are fort+4, reflex+2 and will+3. Ranger 3 grants fort+3, reflex+3 and will+0, while wizard 3 grans fort+1, reflex+1 and will+3. In other words, ranger 2 gives a +1 bonus to fortitude and reflex, while wizard 3 gives a +1 bonus to fortitude and reflex! So what do you do now? You take the best benefits and in this case there's no difference. You -don't- add the base save bonuses the same level up grants like that. Normally you add all base save bonuses together, but with gestalt you take the best one each level instead and THEN you add up your base save bonuses. So no matter how you slice this one, he gains +1 to fortitude and reflex this level, for a total of fortitude+5, reflex+3 and will+3.

So our rangerfighterwizard decides to go full retard and dip sorcerer as well, while keeping with his wizard levels for level four. This makes him a fighter 1/ranger 2/sorcerer 1//wizard 4 as well as someone with crippling MAD. That aside, sorcerer 1 grants fort+0, reflex+0 and will+2, while wizard 4 grants fort+1, reflex+1 and will+4. So you select the best - while wizard raises will by one, sorcerer raises it by two. The others gain nothing, so you take the sorcerer bonus for a gain of fort+0, reflex+0 and will+2 this level, and for a grand total of fortitude+5, reflex+3 and will+5.

In summary:

1. Look at the classes you're taking at this level up.
2. Take the highest save values from both classes.
3. If both sides boost a save at that level, you go with the higher one. If they're the same, like a +1 boost on both sides, you simply take the +1. You don't add these together.
4. Now you add any save bonuses this level to your base save bonus.
5. You're done. Double check your math, it's easy to make mistakes with these numbers flying around and they can be hard to catch.

Notes:

1. Remember, always take the better progression and apply that. This is the big rule of thumb with gestalt.  You don't add in a lesser progression from the same level - getting +1 bab from both sides of your gestalt doesn't give you +2 bab that level, nor does getting +2 and +1 fort from both sides of the gestalt give you +3 fort that level.
2. Obviously this can be gamed if you plan things out with your multiclassing. Saves tend to be high in gestalt anyway, so while I prefer if you don't openly abuse it, there's nothing wrong with bearing it in mind either.  Strategically taking your class levels in a  planned order can wring an extra point or two out for your saves.
3. I recommend saving your math every level for reference. It's handy if you're unsure about this at all.
4. Remember, the first level in a new glass gives you a save bump the way saves are designed. You open up with +2 to your good saves and this is shiny.
5. If you'd like some more examples, I can post the math behind NPC saves on request.

Further reading:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm - Gestalt character information.

[Yuthirin]

HAHAHAH Ok I get it now

[Anastasia]

Two house rule updates! The first is a reworking of the Brand of the Nine Hells/Mark of X feats from the FC2. This breaks the first feat into nine, as I found the base feat to be a tangled mess that was crammed together. Some feats were changed, mostly to reflect differences in the Nine Hells in this game versus the FC2's Baator. I'd been meaning to do this for awhile and Dolarnin inspired me to finish this project. These feats aren't entirely balanced - but that's okay, they're bad guy feats so it's DM discretion if they're used. I doubt any of you will ever qualify for them. The second one is a new Exalted feat, Holy Knowledge. This idea came to me when talking to Cor about other Exalted feats. It's not terribly powerful by itself, but it's not bad. It's probably better in non-gestalt when the class skill benefit would be a lot more important.

[Anastasia]

1. Yuth, could you please reply to the feedback topic? >_>

2. Question. What rules in this game - default or house rules or whatever else - do you think could be done better? Any suggestions here, people?

[Merc]

Would be nice if the skill +2 thing was in the skill section instead of the class section. I keep missing over it when I feel like checking and then I'm wondering if I did level-up right and included those or not.

I would suspect Yuth misses this from time to time too given he's forgotten the monk BAB house rule in the past and at a glance his skills seem kind of low even if he has a lot of them (did you do that as part of your audit or just check that roll mod looked right for the rank?).

About the only actual game effecting suggestion I can think of: I love the HP rule from Iron Heroes...that said I don't think it's particularly needed except by Simmer (and she's not exactly using d10s or d12s, so her benefit isn't quite as pronounced).

[Anastasia]

Would be nice if the skill +2 thing was in the skill section instead of the class section. I keep missing over it when I feel like checking and then I'm wondering if I did level-up right and included those or not.

Done. It's in both sections now.

I would suspect Yuth misses this from time to time too given he's forgotten the monk BAB house rule in the past and at a glance his skills seem kind of low even if he has a lot of them (did you do that as part of your audit or just check that roll mod looked right for the rank?).

I haven't checked total SP, though I can if anyone wants me to. It won't happen until the weekend if so.

About the only actual game effecting suggestion I can think of: I love the HP rule from Iron Heroes...that said I don't think it's particularly needed except by Simmer (and she's not exactly using d10s or d12s, so her benefit isn't quite as pronounced).

How's that rule work? I'm not immediately familiar with it.

[Merc]

About the only actual game effecting suggestion I can think of: I love the HP rule from Iron Heroes...that said I don't think it's particularly needed except by Simmer (and she's not exactly using d10s or d12s, so her benefit isn't quite as pronounced).

How's that rule work? I'm not immediately familiar with it.

<Merc> The rule converts any HP roll from dX to "X-4"+d4. So d4 remains the same. d6 would be 2+d4, d8 is 4+d4, d10 is 6+d4, d12 is 8+d4
<Merc> it's a little less random and avoids the situation of a wizard having more HP than a barbarian who somehow goes under luck and rolls pure 1s while the wizard rolls a mix of 3s and 4s
<Kotono> Post that?
<Merc> But that rule is better fit in non-gestalt, I think, and as I said, only Simmer really needs the HP boost that would provide.

[Anastasia]

About the only actual game effecting suggestion I can think of: I love the HP rule from Iron Heroes...that said I don't think it's particularly needed except by Simmer (and she's not exactly using d10s or d12s, so her benefit isn't quite as pronounced).

How's that rule work? I'm not immediately familiar with it.

<Merc> The rule converts any HP roll from dX to "X-4"+d4. So d4 remains the same. d6 would be 2+d4, d8 is 4+d4, d10 is 6+d4, d12 is 8+d4
<Merc> it's a little less random and avoids the situation of a wizard having more HP than a barbarian who somehow goes under luck and rolls pure 1s while the wizard rolls a mix of 3s and 4s
<Kotono> Post that?
<Merc> But that rule is better fit in non-gestalt, I think, and as I said, only Simmer really needs the HP boost that would provide.

I'm not a huge fan of that, I have a stubborn old school streak of wanting to roll hit points. That said, if everyone else really likes it I'll consider it seriously.

[Anastasia]

THIS JUST IN:

<Merc> Also, I just did Yuth's skill points. His add up to 34 skill points out of 54 he'd get for monk 6
> I think some might be cross class.
> He mentioned that.
<Merc> just 1 point
<Merc> I counted that one as 2
> PM me your math real quick?
<Merc> I just popped it in my calculator which I have handy cause I'm doing some statistics review
* Kotono nods, doing the same real quick. What's his int modifier?
> +2?
<Merc> +0
<Merc> He's got int 11
> Lemme do it myself real quick, but I bet you're right.
> Oh well, at worst he gets more SP. Yay.
<Merc> heh
<Merc> I only did it for him because I suspected due to the fact that he misses the Monk BAB one repeatedly.
<Merc> Cor/Eb almost surely did it right.
* Kotono nods.
> I'm about 99% sure the did.

I checked and the math checks out, so it looks like you've shorted yourself 20 SP, Yuth. Feel free to fill these points in. Correct us if we're missing something, it looks like you forgot to apply the +2 SP bonus to all classes.

[Corwin]

2. Everything could be better with more skill points per level! +4 go~

[Anastasia]

2. Everything could be better with more skill points per level! +4 go~

Mmmm. Could work, though higher end int, non Sylvie characters would have SP to burn. Team Bimbo would love it. Anyone else have an opinion here?

---

Also, my proposal: Since we have a character who relies on grapple we use those rules a lot. Let's be honest: The grapple rules are not good. So an upgrade here would be awesome! I'm considering nicking Pathfinder's grapple/CMB/CMD system. Relevant information can be found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers Thoughts?