Random DM nagging.

[Anastasia]

Wise up!

I moved a bunch of stuff to custom material from house rules, mostly epic material. This is due to the post getting difficult to manage and laggy, not to mention bothersome to navigate. I'll be doing some general reorganization to increase ease of use, so expect a lot of edits in the coming hour or so. I'll also be using this as a chance to revise old things that are overdue a revision. I'll post about any changes here.

[Anastasia]

Revised epic Hellreaver. The changes are mostly formatting edits.

[Anastasia]

Ithea, you look like you might reach epic levels with duskblade. If so, could you take a gander at the epic duskblade over in custom material sometime? Let me know what you think any opinions on it, the spell progression past 20 and the bonus feats for it. Likewise, could you look at epic favored soul, Cor? I'm probably going to revise it, as I was experimenting with epic mechanics with it and I'd rather revise it to fit the other progressions. Suggestions welcome.

Cor, where's your avatar from? It reminds me of Alicia for some reason. I have no idea why, it doesn't really look like her.

[Corwin]

Fujino Shizuru, a Hime~

The resemblance might be in the look/turning away position, plus the whole part about the calm confidence? Shizuru's pictures are all over the place, but some are simply stunning.

[Anastasia]

That and Alicia's inspiration picture was a hime too, wasn't it? It might be some sort of sub-conscious observation on my part.

[Corwin]

Otome! Totally different! Their magic came from technology-- wait, that doesn't sound right....

[Ebiris]

They get power from their nanomachines!

[Corwin]

I think I talked to you before that epic spell capacity or whatever that feat goes is pretty much a tax for casters in the form of an epic feat. Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se. Feats are rare, though, and epic feats more so. They're also there to let you give flavor to your char in a fun way. If some balance is needed, I'd prefer noncasters got some sort of mechanical boost instead, honestly, since it's a boring feat that nevertheless every caster every has to take.

The rest of the epic favored soul feels decently solid, like the base class itself? Having an ACF would be nice.

[Merc]

I'd have to agree with the caster tax thing, it's even worse for duskblade since they absolutely can't hold off on picking up the feat otherwise they get screwed over by spell selection rules. As duskblades only learn one spell per level, if they don't have epic spellcasting at level 21, they have to learn level 1-5 spells up until they pick up the feat, though the fact that you allow spell retraining makes it a little better...unless you rule that one can only trade spells known for other spells of same level as initial selection, then back to lameness for them.

Regarding rest of epic duskblade:
On the spell selection for duskblade, the amount of options is drepessingly even smaller than pre-epic. Even at level 4-5, which are already spell starved compared to previous levels, they get 8 spell options.

For level 6-8 in epic though, there's exactly 5 spell options per level (I'm counting all the mass spells as one option, honestly), which means there's exactly one spell to ditch if you pick up four spells at each spell level as duskblades typically do. That's pretty sucky considering one of the reasons you put up the orb-blade item is because you've said I have a small spell selection already.

In addition to that, level 4 and 5 spells pre-epic only get ONE touch spell between the two levels (level 4 has toxic weapon), which isn't all that stellar considering the save is pretty simple to beat in gestalt, though it has benefit of no spell resistance at least. It's not that exciting though, and I'll probably still pick Dimension Door for my final level 4 spell.

Anyway, considering decreasing options in touch spells already pre-epic, spell list for epic gets...level 6 only gets ONE buffing touch spell from that list, level 7 gets none, level 8 gets none (unless wrath of heavens is one as I couldn't find that spell with a quick search). So no utility or attack touch spells for epic spellcasting and only one buff spell? On top of which that one buff spell gives a +4 enhancement bonus to scores, when by epic level we'd already have magic items buffing our important stats at +4 or better? For a class whose signature ability is arcane channeling of touch spells, getting an option of only two touch spells since level 13, and not even attractive touch spell options, well that's just all kinds of horrible.

I haven't actually looked at the spells besides checking if they were touch spells, so I can't comment on the actual choices outside of the lack of touch spells and the lack of options.

On class abilities, quick cast's progression seems perfect, that's what it is pre-epic and I don't see a reason to change it since it's a really good ability. Spell power progression I kind of want to say should be faster than every 5 levels since it speeds up a bit with the level 18 of +5, but that's probably just a bonus for sticking with the class for so long, so that's actually probably good as it is too.

On bonus feats, I think it should be every three levels, considering full spellcasters as well as other hybrid casters like bard/paladin/ranger get that progression from what I can find. However, this is entirely assuming that the other hybrid classes also have epic spellcasting progressions (as I don't see one for them in house rules). If they don't, then I can't really comment on the bonus feats, as I'd feel the other hybrid casters are getting the short end then.

For epic feats, the quick cast feats are really nice, otherwise they seem pretty basic. Don't really have much to say about these.

[Anastasia]

I think I talked to you before that epic spell capacity or whatever that feat goes is pretty much a tax for casters in the form of an epic feat. Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se. Feats are rare, though, and epic feats more so. They're also there to let you give flavor to your char in a fun way. If some balance is needed, I'd prefer noncasters got some sort of mechanical boost instead, honestly, since it's a boring feat that nevertheless every caster every has to take.

The rest of the epic favored soul feels decently solid, like the base class itself? Having an ACF would be nice.

More about the epic spellcasting stuff in Merc's post, since it came up for both of them.

Re-reading epic favored soul, I'm not happy with superior flight. Epic progression shouldn't be granting new abilities in that way; things should be expanded on with epic feats instead. That's the main thing I want to change, though the custom feats for it are also going to get a good look-over. I'm not going to make new ACFs for the epic levels for them, it doesn't fit the basic design philosophy there. If you mean continuing an ACF from pre-epic levels, tell me which one and I'll take a look.

[Anastasia]

I'd have to agree with the caster tax thing, it's even worse for duskblade since they absolutely can't hold off on picking up the feat otherwise they get screwed over by spell selection rules. As duskblades only learn one spell per level, if they don't have epic spellcasting at level 21, they have to learn level 1-5 spells up until they pick up the feat, though the fact that you allow spell retraining makes it a little better...unless you rule that one can only trade spells known for other spells of same level as initial selection, then back to lameness for them.

I'd allow some sort of retraining so they don't lose spells gained that could be 6+ level spells.  You shouldn't be penalized for not selecting that right away.

Regarding rest of epic duskblade:
On the spell selection for duskblade, the amount of options is drepessingly even smaller than pre-epic. Even at level 4-5, which are already spell starved compared to previous levels, they get 8 spell options.

For level 6-8 in epic though, there's exactly 5 spell options per level (I'm counting all the mass spells as one option, honestly), which means there's exactly one spell to ditch if you pick up four spells at each spell level as duskblades typically do. That's pretty sucky considering one of the reasons you put up the orb-blade item is because you've said I have a small spell selection already.

Yes. This was sort of on purpose, as I stuck to the books the original duskblade drew on - the sor/wiz section of the PHB and the PHB2. The spell selection needs to be expanded, no argument there. I ran out of spells I could justify giving them, based on what they learned in pre-epic levels. I designed this originally for one NPC as well as being a mechanics exercise. Buffing out the spell selection wasn't the biggest or baddest priority.

In addition to that, level 4 and 5 spells pre-epic only get ONE touch spell between the two levels (level 4 has toxic weapon), which isn't all that stellar considering the save is pretty simple to beat in gestalt, though it has benefit of no spell resistance at least. It's not that exciting though, and I'll probably still pick Dimension Door for my final level 4 spell.

I noticed this with Donald back in Balmuria 1. I don't know if they figured everyone at that level would spam Vampiric Touch or if it was just a failing of design.

Anyway, considering decreasing options in touch spells already pre-epic, spell list for epic gets...level 6 only gets ONE buffing touch spell from that list, level 7 gets none, level 8 gets none (unless wrath of heavens is one as I couldn't find that spell with a quick search). So no utility or attack touch spells for epic spellcasting and only one buff spell? On top of which that one buff spell gives a +4 enhancement bonus to scores, when by epic level we'd already have magic items buffing our important stats at +4 or better? For a class whose signature ability is arcane channeling of touch spells, getting an option of only two touch spells since level 13, and not even attractive touch spell options, well that's just all kinds of horrible.

Wrath of the Heavens is a custom epic spell, check the house rules for it. I was running out of things to give them, so I used that to fill space.

Anyway, what should probably be done is some manner of expanding the 6+ duskblade spell lists. I could say 4-5, but I'm keeping this focused to epic for the moment. I considered cracking open the spell compendium, but I decided at the time to stick with how they did it.

On bonus feats, I think it should be every three levels, considering full spellcasters as well as other hybrid casters like bard/paladin/ranger get that progression from what I can find. However, this is entirely assuming that the other hybrid classes also have epic spellcasting progressions (as I don't see one for them in house rules). If they don't, then I can't really comment on the bonus feats, as I'd feel the other hybrid casters are getting the short end then.

They should. I have a bard one in the works, and I'm toying with a few others. Also, on comparing, I gave epic favored soul 23+3 and epic duskblade 24+4? Eeegh.

[Anastasia]

Since Merc brought it up (and this is the only presentable one right now), here's a highly alpha version of 21+ casting paladin. The spells at the bottom are only from the PHB, haven't even splatbook hunted for 'em yet.



   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

Level	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
21	0	-	-	-	-
22	1	-	-	-	-
23	2	-	-	-	-
24	3	-	-	-	-
25	3	0	-	-	-
26	3	1	-	-	-
27	3	2	-	-	-
28	3	3	-	-	-
29	3	3	0	-	-
30	3	3	1	-	-
31	3	3	2	-	-
32	3	3	3	-	-
33	3	3	3	0	-
34	3	3	3	1	-
35	3	3	3	2	-
36	3	3	3	3	-
37	3	3	3	3	0
38	3	3	3	3	1
39	3	3	3	3	2

5th: atonement, cure critical wounds, mass cure light wounds, plane shift, righteous might,  (5th-6th level magic)

[Merc]

I'd try to suggest spells, but they're kind of all over the place at higher levels, and I don't really see how they justify making a spell higher or lower level on the duskblade spell list compared to sorc/wiz.

There's only three spells that makes sense to me with a changed level are dispelling touch (level 3), clenched fist (level 5), and polar ray (level 5). Dispelling touch is higher level than sorc/wizard (level 2), as it's a touch spell, so obviously a duskblade can get more out of it. Polar ray and clenching fist are level 5 while the sorc/wiz versions are level 8.. and those casters get them at around character level 15-16, duskblade gets them at level 17. No saving throw on them, so no penalty for getting them later either, but still gotten at near the same level, just a little slower for being gish. Makes sense!

On the other hand, I don't see why Dispel Magic or Slashing Dispel are higher level spells as they're not touch spells, there's no save DCs so there's no benefit of casting them at a higher spell level, and sorcs can get them at character level 6 and 8 (wizards at 5 and 7), whereas duskblade would get them at 13 and 17. Okay, they're gishes...but double the class level? Seriously?

Spells of the same level make sense in the case of not wanting to lower a spell's difficulty class for saves...as does making it lower so a duskblade can pick it up at close to the same level as a sorc/wiz (or likely just a little later)...but a lot of same level spells don't call for saves, and a lot of the lower level spells...do?

Like I said, doesn't really make sense to me sometimes, outsides of "Let's pick spells that match the flavor of an arcane gish that specializes in touch spells". And then they forgot to put more touch spells at levels 4-5. >_>

As an aside, a note I forgot to mention in my earlier post, the progression for spells/day is also fine, it's identical to the pattern pre-epic, so works for me.

[Corwin]

More about the epic spellcasting stuff in Merc's post, since it came up for both of them.

You didn't actually respond to my point on how that epic feat is artificial and annoying even in your response to Merc, though.  >_>

Re-reading epic favored soul, I'm not happy with superior flight. Epic progression shouldn't be granting new abilities in that way; things should be expanded on with epic feats instead. That's the main thing I want to change, though the custom feats for it are also going to get a good look-over. I'm not going to make new ACFs for the epic levels for them, it doesn't fit the basic design philosophy there. If you mean continuing an ACF from pre-epic levels, tell me which one and I'll take a look.

FS gets wings with a fly speed, so I don't think increasing the speed is particularly new. Any of the alternatives to this you already created should work as well.

Feats-wise, I felt there could be a bit more focus on the martial? Epic Divine Might, etc.

[Anastasia]

I'd try to suggest spells, but they're kind of all over the place at higher levels, and I don't really see how they justify making a spell higher or lower level on the duskblade spell list compared to sorc/wiz.

There's a method to the madness if you sit down and work it all out. I did it last time and I'll do it again when I start fiddling with duskblade magic again.

On the other hand, I don't see why Dispel Magic or Slashing Dispel are higher level spells as they're not touch spells, there's no save DCs so there's no benefit of casting them at a higher spell level, and sorcs can get them at character level 6 and 8 (wizards at 5 and 7), whereas duskblade would get them at 13 and 17. Okay, they're gishes...but double the class level? Seriously?

That stuck out to me, too.  For whatever reason they decided duskblades should get dispelling later and with less capacity than other casters. No idea why.