Random DM nagging.

[Merc]

In regards to epicness of epic levels, rather than rewriting it in general, can't you tack something on? I didn't look too in detail at B1, but didnt you try something of the sort with epic destinies or whatever it was called?

[Corwin]

+1 Merc, +1 Yuth

[Nephrite]

I will say it kind of surprised me that Epic classes sort of identify themselves via feats, rather than through any particular class abilities. For example, bard songs not getting any stronger going into epic on their own and needing to take feats to empower them just seemed... I dunno, wonky.

[Anastasia]

In regards to epicness of epic levels, rather than rewriting it in general, can't you tack something on? I didn't look too in detail at B1, but didnt you try something of the sort with epic destinies or whatever it was called?

Something like that. I don't use those more widely for a bunch of reasons. The super short explanation is that since it's gestalt and there's lots of levels to play, take an epic PrC or a template to sort it out.

The longer version's below.

1. Workload. Making a bunch of epic destinies to suit characters and to balance them is a lot of work. It falls into the same problem as reworking epic levels. Moreover, with how diverse and varied characters are, let alone epic characters, you either use a few standard destinies and cram everyone in them or do lots of custom ones. The former isn't a satisfactory answer and the latter is a workload issue.

2. It's more mechanics and moving parts to epic characters. With gestalt in play, any epic character save for the most basic has a lot of moving pieces. Adding an extra source of mechanics and abilities only adds more complexity and things to keep track of, as well as an additional avenue to optimize through. All of these make the game more difficult to manage.

3. Balance. As alluded to in the previous, epic destinies add power and ways to strengthen your character. If added without giving up anything to characters, I have to take that into account for overall balance. If you trade off something for it (as the WotC ones do), you have to balance it to make a reasonable trade off for those. With everything going in gestalt and epic, that's frankly difficult.

4. They aren't needed. Now bear with me a moment. There's already ways and means to gain new powers in D&D: By taking classes, prestige classes or templates. If you want something epic, work in that frame instead. Make an epic PrC for you or look at some of the epic templates I have over in rules and setting. There's a fair few templates that could serve the same purpose as epic destinies and provide examples: Efreeti Emir, Authority of Celestia, Eladrin Hero, Duke of Hell and so forth. Why make another level of rules when the existing rules can already take care of the situation? It does take the effort of making something to serve, though.

There's a few other flavor reasons, but they aren't dreadfully important and this post is long enough already.

That's why. B1's epic destinies were a lot of work and were pre-gestalt, which made adding something like that less onerous. B3's sheer degree of things going on makes this an unattractive option.

[Anastasia]

I will say it kind of surprised me that Epic classes sort of identify themselves via feats, rather than through any particular class abilities. For example, bard songs not getting any stronger going into epic on their own and needing to take feats to empower them just seemed... I dunno, wonky.

That's not precisely true. Inspire courage continues to improve in epic.

That said, yeah. It's the system the ELH went with and why epic classes get bonus epic feats instead of more built in class abilities.

[Nephrite]

I will say it kind of surprised me that Epic classes sort of identify themselves via feats, rather than through any particular class abilities. For example, bard songs not getting any stronger going into epic on their own and needing to take feats to empower them just seemed... I dunno, wonky.

That's not precisely true. Inspire courage continues to improve in epic.

That said, yeah. It's the system the ELH went with and why epic classes get bonus epic feats instead of more built in class abilities.

It does? Does it continue the progression, i.e. at 26 it'd go up by +1 and then again at 32?

[Anastasia]

Yes. Read the progression here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm

Also note that epic bard gets epic spells through houserules.

[Nephrite]

Oh, somehow I missed that chart and just saw the part where it says you don't get any new effects.

[Anastasia]

Oh, somehow I missed that chart and just saw the part where it says you don't get any new effects.

Aaah. That would explain it. You don't get any directly, though you can take various bardic music powers with epic feats.

[Yuthirin]

There's a couple I think? They might suck though. Lemme look.

Let me know.

I was only able to find epic progressions for non-epic PrCs.

I'm currently considering some sort of adaptation of Crystal Master or something entirely new that would mesh with my character's current build.

[Yuthirin]

More likely something entirely new since CM requires a physical body.

[Nephrite]

Made a small correction, Inspire Courage should've been at +7 instead of +6 due to the Vest of Legends boosting it by 5 Bard levels.

[Yuthirin]

Because there's not enough powergaming around, Tryll & Calleigh will be attempting to gain the Paragon template from the ELH over the course of their careers.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

[Anastasia]

Made a small correction, Inspire Courage should've been at +7 instead of +6 due to the Vest of Legends boosting it by 5 Bard levels.

Noted.

[Anastasia]

Because there's not enough powergaming around, Tryll & Calleigh will be attempting to gain the Paragon template from the ELH over the course of their careers.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,103072.msg1051027.html#msg1051027 <--- For reference.

That's doable. Hard but doable. To quote the flavor from that post:

This template is tweaked to provide for creatures of destiny. It's for legendary heroes and exemplars of the highest order. A creature that has this template distills their racial identity into the purest form. They are incredible champions that can approach the the powers themselves.

It's meant to be used sparingly, though you can have more than one paragon of a specific creature. It's just extremely rare. Likewise, not every race produces a paragon.

The base template is from the SRD (and ELH by extension).

Paragon Template

Paragons are the alpha personifications of a species. They have reached the pinnacle of skill and ability and gone farther than any before. A paragon may be the progenitor of a race, the greatest hero they have ever produced, or even a quasi deity. But without a doubt, through skill and luck they have become one of the best the race has ever produced. They are blessed by destiny and exceed all others.

It's a rare template, since vanishingly few ever live up to that level of perfection. There have been a few paragons in Balmuria: G'renna in B1, who was a paragon succubus and ultimately imprisoned by the quasi power Alicia Reynes and Gathgorian in B3, a paragon cornugon and now Duke of Hell. It is reaching a perfection and becoming an exemplar of what your race is, living up to it to the utmost and even expanding on what it is and what that race means.

It is a path of power much like divinity, and in fact cannot coexist with divine rank of 1 or higher. If divinity is becoming an integral part of Creation, becoming a paragon is becoming an integral part of a race. It is a path towards quasi power status and divine rank 0, though it does not include it due to Ao being a tremendous dick and hating on many who attempt to ascend to divinity.

So let me begin this with a question: How does Tryll and how does Calleigh represent that? There's no right or wrong answer here.