Random DM nagging.

[Anastasia]

It's worth considering. Compensation's good when I need a down day, after all.

[Yuthirin]

Uh, lessee.

The two hitting better ones were combined into a single ability for the sake of the flavor working better. More to hit, some damage and crit range loss.

The miss chance got trimmed for the sake of overhead, it was on the border so could go either way.

Flank immunity was simply included in the stat block above rather than being a separate ability.

Power of the sun was folded directly into the damage reduction and fast healing. I also boosted the fast healing a little higher on top of it.

The sunburst was trimmed 'cause there's plenty going on as it is. A breath weapon's there to track as well as some other things, adding another fiddly bit to make yet more upkeep struck me as a poor idea.

Bulwark was snipped because it's CMD is really high as it is (and I need to make sure I don't need to recalculate it and added in the sacred bonus) and does that job well enough, without adding in another immunity.

If you could include that explanation in the first place, that'd be great. I'm open to criticism. That was not criticism. I was okay with you rewriting it in your format. I didn't also expect you to take it from a rose bush to a bonsai.

If it continues in this direction, I was planning on talking to you about that and seeing how to reintegrate the flavor stuff I cut.

I'm not sure I even understand which direction we're headed anymore.

Let's start with your details.

The two hitting better ones were combined into a single ability for the sake of the flavor working better. More to hit, some damage and crit range loss.

The first part of this makes sense. I'm fine with it.

The second part I strongly disagree with. It has a max of three attacks per turn, one of which wasn't affected by the damage buff. It needs something more. It either needs to be critting more often, hitting more often, or doing something else like sundering with every strike.

The miss chance got trimmed for the sake of overhead, it was on the border so could go either way.

I didn't expect it to last, so I'm fine with that. It felt like a step too far, but it bore including.

Flank immunity was simply included in the stat block above rather than being a separate ability.

Didn't notice that, cool.

Power of the sun was folded directly into the damage reduction and fast healing. I also boosted the fast healing a little higher on top of it.

Alright.

The sunburst was trimmed 'cause there's plenty going on as it is. A breath weapon's there to track as well as some other things, adding another fiddly bit to make yet more upkeep struck me as a poor idea.

I don't like this choice. The golem needs to be hitting more often somehow, and this was a good option for that without rolling more to-hits in combat.

Bulwark was snipped because it's CMD is really high as it is (and I need to make sure I don't need to recalculate it and added in the sacred bonus) and does that job well enough, without adding in another immunity.

Alright.

Ultimately, I was trying to give the golem more chances to damage creatures without just stacking attacks onto it. Looks like you're opposed to that. Yes?

Also, why the hell did you rename the abilities?

[Anastasia]

The second part I strongly disagree with. It has a max of three attacks per turn, one of which wasn't affected by the damage buff. It needs something more. It either needs to be critting more often, hitting more often, or doing something else like sundering with every strike.

Why not just give it power attack as a bonus feat? It has good to hit (even ignoring the bit about rebalancing it I mentioned), so giving up some to hit for damage makes sense for it much of the time.

Also boosting the damage was further considered, as rampage now has a free dire charge effect tacked onto it.

Didn't notice that, cool.

It also got fire immunity included, as I felt that was thematic enough to be a good choice. Magic immunity shuts down most fire damage options on it anyway, so I don't see it as being a huge deal.

I don't like this choice. The golem needs to be hitting more often somehow, and this was a good option for that without rolling more to-hits in combat.

Well yeah, but lemme ask you. Is it worth tracking yet another separate ability when you run it, one that requires keeping track of and invites you to forget it and/or mix it up?

It's also why the breath weapon went up to a 1d4 round recharge, as it's compensating for that loss.

Ultimately, I was trying to give the golem more chances to damage creatures without just stacking attacks onto it. Looks like you're opposed to that. Yes?

Not really, no. It's less that and trying to trim down more charged and complicated abilities, as well as abilities you have to track. Plus there's only so much a creature can do around, tossing on more and more freebies strains balance pretty quick.

Also, why the hell did you rename the abilities?

Besides sunfire strikes - which was just a random synthesized name for the sake of having one there - I think all the changes were to generic names, such as to swallow whole or breath weapon. See this bit from a few posts up.

3. When possible, convert abilities to what they are and use the established rules for them. For example, see swallow whole replacing into the sunfire engine. It does much the same thing, but uses the language and rules of swallow whole, which it essentially is anyway. This aids gameplay, makes rules conflicts easier to resolve and provides a ready reference when references are needed.

The point of using swallow whole instead of, say, ferocious super swallow deathbeam or whatever (yes yes, I know, it's hyperbole), is that it's directly tied to rules in the SRD. You go the SRD and you can immediately see how swallow whole is used, how the numbers are derived and so forth.

[Yuthirin]

Besides sunfire strikes - which was just a random synthesized name for the sake of having one there - I think all the changes were to generic names, such as to swallow whole or breath weapon. See this bit from a few posts up.

See below.

Sunfire Strength (Ex)
Eye of Dawn (Ex)

Not really, no. It's less that and trying to trim down more charged and complicated abilities, as well as abilities you have to track. Plus there's only so much a creature can do around, tossing on more and more freebies strains balance pretty quick.

Why not have Bask In My Radiance go off on a critical hit, then? Easier to track.

[Anastasia]

Oh, what was eye of dawn before?

Could do that approach instead, sure. Bonus effects on a crit are a thing.

[Iron Dragoon]

I've been mostly silent in this because the rules/balancing of this is way beyond anything I've even touched. That said, what I can tell from each side is this:

Dune wants thing more in-line with the SRD/Rules and fewer separate abilities that happen to do more in a single go.

Yuth likes flavor and has a difference of opinion in the source/content of which abilities are getting mashed together and the 'custom' part of a custom golem.

Now what's missing both Yuth and me is the thought processes behind the value of certain abilities and why one got buffed in place of cutting another and why it's being considered 'a good trade.' I suspect this stems from the difference in how Yuth and I play (and the value we assign abilities), and how Dune plans/DMs/Mechanics things and is likely the source of frustration on both sides.

For Specifics:

Names: I understand Dune's point about connecting names and abilities, but a lot of flavor does come from here, unfortunately. Maybe do like spells do and add an 'as <swallow whole> effect, but also does' type deal?

The breath weapon and Bask in My Radiance. I'm kinda with Yuth here on saying the proposed was not a fair trade. It went from a solid every-4-round banish to a secondary effect on things that have already been hit. It was meant as an ability to clear the field/mooks/summons/ect., but anything that can survive the 30d8 goldenfire damage has a solid chance of flat out resisting the banishment spell, and anything that's reliably vulnerable to the banishment effect likely won't survive the 30d8. That being the logic, having it as part of a single ability that's now restricted to a cone that already does damage instead of a large AoE makes it seem like you're cutting the legs from it. The point of it was to be a wide area swipe, now we have no wide area attack at all, except the cone which we already had. So we've effectively traded an entire attack/ability with large range/effect for something that minimizes the usefulness of the effect.

Eye of Dawn/Light of Dawn: The difference here is the name and armor bleaching effect. The anti-magic field was unchanged so whatever, but the bleaching effect was lost. I suspect it was cut because we didn't list exactly what bleaching *does.* Does it simply change the color or if it's cursed/profane does it drain the profane bonuses or something?

Sunfire Strength: I'm mostly okay with the changes made here outside of addressing the crit range, which leads me to issue with Bask in My Radiance going off on crit. Your changes effectively lost us four numbers of crit threat range with no bonuses traded for it. I'm gonna quote Trump here: "Worst trade deal ever." Now losing some crit range is different than losing some. Losing 90% of our crit range and then having a previously separate ability tied to it which previously triggered every 4 rounds means that we also lose a huge chance percentage of it going off.

[Yuthirin]

I've been mostly silent in this because the rules/balancing of this is way beyond anything I've even touched. That said, what I can tell from each side is this:

Dune wants thing more in-line with the SRD/Rules and fewer separate abilities that happen to do more in a single go.

Yuth likes flavor and has a difference of opinion in the source/content of which abilities are getting mashed together and the 'custom' part of a custom golem.

Now what's missing both Yuth and me is the thought processes behind the value of certain abilities and why one got buffed in place of cutting another and why it's being considered 'a good trade.' I suspect this stems from the difference in how Yuth and I play (and the value we assign abilities), and how Dune plans/DMs/Mechanics things and is likely the source of frustration on both sides.

For Specifics:

Names: I understand Dune's point about connecting names and abilities, but a lot of flavor does come from here, unfortunately. Maybe do like spells do and add an 'as <swallow whole> effect, but also does' type deal?

The breath weapon and Bask in My Radiance. I'm kinda with Yuth here on saying the proposed was not a fair trade. It went from a solid every-4-round banish to a secondary effect on things that have already been hit. It was meant as an ability to clear the field/mooks/summons/ect., but anything that can survive the 30d8 goldenfire damage has a solid chance of flat out resisting the banishment spell, and anything that's reliably vulnerable to the banishment effect likely won't survive the 30d8. That being the logic, having it as part of a single ability that's now restricted to a cone that already does damage instead of a large AoE makes it seem like you're cutting the legs from it. The point of it was to be a wide area swipe, now we have no wide area attack at all, except the cone which we already had. So we've effectively traded an entire attack/ability with large range/effect for something that minimizes the usefulness of the effect.

Eye of Dawn/Light of Dawn: The difference here is the name and armor bleaching effect. The anti-magic field was unchanged so whatever, but the bleaching effect was lost. I suspect it was cut because we didn't list exactly what bleaching *does.* Does it simply change the color or if it's cursed/profane does it drain the profane bonuses or something?

Sunfire Strength: I'm mostly okay with the changes made here outside of addressing the crit range, which leads me to issue with Bask in My Radiance going off on crit. Your changes effectively lost us four numbers of crit threat range with no bonuses traded for it. I'm gonna quote Trump here: "Worst trade deal ever." Now losing some crit range is different than losing some. Losing 90% of our crit range and then having a previously separate ability tied to it which previously triggered every 4 rounds means that we also lose a huge chance percentage of it going off.

Okay. So.

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

Refractive Haze getting cut is fine. It was a throw-in to see if it stuck.

The extra HP you added to Toughness helps.

Don't think I don't see that placeholder in On Wings of Light.

Probably more tomorrow.

[Corwin]

Unrelated to above, today I ran an experiment in session length.

I think it worked out okay. Not great - that sort of combat wasn't the best fit for it, no fault of Moore's or my own, just where his thread was at - since that sort of combat really is best with 100% focus on it. Still, it wasn't a terrible idea and could be a way to make up some days when circumstances aren't cooperating. Especially days when Iddy and/or Yuth are around more, so I can get the full crew rolling at once.

I'll keep it in my back pocket as an option for now. What did you all think?

It hits somewhat squarely into the zone I sleep, I'm afraid. Yesterday that was compounded by having class beforehand.

[Anastasia]

Unrelated to above, today I ran an experiment in session length.

I think it worked out okay. Not great - that sort of combat wasn't the best fit for it, no fault of Moore's or my own, just where his thread was at - since that sort of combat really is best with 100% focus on it. Still, it wasn't a terrible idea and could be a way to make up some days when circumstances aren't cooperating. Especially days when Iddy and/or Yuth are around more, so I can get the full crew rolling at once.

I'll keep it in my back pocket as an option for now. What did you all think?

It hits somewhat squarely into the zone I sleep, I'm afraid. Yesterday that was compounded by having class beforehand.

Yeah, that is a concern. Yesterday wasn't the best day to do this.

[Anastasia]

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Now the thing is, I do agree with you, but I feel the mechanical portions of a creature are best reasonably streamlined, as well as using those mechanics to reinforce flavor without needing to say much directly about it.

Vast Power (Ex)

The tarrasque possesses a degree of might unknown to lesser creatures. It uses d20s for all hit dice, adds its Strength modifier to its saving throws, gains maximum HP per hit die and uses its full Strength modifier to determine its damage on its secondary natural weapons.

This looks like mechanics, but it also says things about the tarrasque that further sell it's flavor. What other monster uses d20s for hit dice, let alone gets Strength to saving throws as well as other benefits? You look at that and it points out directly that the tarrasque is a force to be reckoned with. That it's a legendary, titanic monster of inhuman strength, all in two lines that are easy to read and integrate directly into the stat block without anything further to track beyond that.

Water's Agility (Ex)

A blackwater golem uses its Dexterity modifier in place of its Strength modifier on all attack and damage rolls, as well as CMB checks. It applies its Dexterity modifier twice to CMD.

Another from C&M, this is a golem made of water. You'd imagine it would move fluidly and gracefully, right? Swirl about, move like a stream or otherwise do cool things because it's made of water. That's not directly said here, but when you read this, it implies and points out exactly that. It uses Dex instead of Strength and applies it twice to CMD? Oh, that makes sense, it would be graceful. This ability says that flat out without saying it, flavoring the monster and reinforcing what it is without dragging the mechanics longer or more complex.

Good mechanics help flavor the monster without needing to say much, because they define the monster and what it can do while doing so in a way that's concise and makes it as simple as possible to run the monster. This isn't to say that mechanics can't have some flavor beyond that - an interesting name, a bit of text in there framing it better, whatever - but the mechanics should largely be kept free of cruft. Let them work and add mechanics in other places, as much as possible.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Without checking swallow whole, I believe DR still applies.

Damage to cut out can be adjusted, I just threw a number at it for now.

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Why not just give it sunburst as an SLA then? I mean, if you want sunburst, give it sunburst and work from there. Or is it the 'get it for free on top of everything else' part that you want?

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

I have no opinion on it, I just omitted it for now due to the aims of simplification and brevity.

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

Hey, just an idle question here, but haven't I been saying a lot about simplifying, cutting down fiddly details and all of that? How does that turn into adding more of exactly that?

(In the interests of honesty? That would be moderately useful, I do use profane bonuses for baddies sometimes. If it's worth the trouble is an open question.)

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

It's also usable far more often.

[Yuthirin]

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Now the thing is, I do agree with you, but I feel the mechanical portions of a creature are best reasonably streamlined, as well as using those mechanics to reinforce flavor without needing to say much directly about it.

snip

This looks like mechanics, but it also says things about the tarrasque that further sell it's flavor. What other monster uses d20s for hit dice, let alone gets Strength to saving throws as well as other benefits? You look at that and it points out directly that the tarrasque is a force to be reckoned with. That it's a legendary, titanic monster of inhuman strength, all in two lines that are easy to read and integrate directly into the stat block without anything further to track beyond that.

snip

Another from C&M, this is a golem made of water. You'd imagine it would move fluidly and gracefully, right? Swirl about, move like a stream or otherwise do cool things because it's made of water. That's not directly said here, but when you read this, it implies and points out exactly that. It uses Dex instead of Strength and applies it twice to CMD? Oh, that makes sense, it would be graceful. This ability says that flat out without saying it, flavoring the monster and reinforcing what it is without dragging the mechanics longer or more complex.

Good mechanics help flavor the monster without needing to say much, because they define the monster and what it can do while doing so in a way that's concise and makes it as simple as possible to run the monster. This isn't to say that mechanics can't have some flavor beyond that - an interesting name, a bit of text in there framing it better, whatever - but the mechanics should largely be kept free of cruft. Let them work and add mechanics in other places, as much as possible.

Alright. I'll bite. Some name changes fur the purposes of you running them I get. Others I don't. I understand when you change them to what they actually do. Into The Sunfire Engine to Swallow whole makes perfect sense to me. Even changing Breath of Light to Breath Weapon is, while boring, also sense-making. Sort of. I was just really whiny about the changes to the names you did leave in.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Without checking swallow whole, I believe DR still applies.

Damage to cut out can be adjusted, I just threw a number at it for now.

Perfect.

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Why not just give it sunburst as an SLA then? I mean, if you want sunburst, give it sunburst and work from there. Or is it the 'get it for free on top of everything else' part that you want?

The original idea had it going off every once in a while without affecting its overall combat ability. Unless it's a quickened SLA, which we could do!, it's a standard action and basically eats a turn.

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

I have no opinion on it, I just omitted it for now due to the aims of simplification and brevity.

Fair.

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

Hey, just an idle question here, but haven't I been saying a lot about simplifying, cutting down fiddly details and all of that? How does that turn into adding more of exactly that?

(In the interests of honesty? That would be moderately useful, I do use profane bonuses for baddies sometimes. If it's worth the trouble is an open question.)

Iddy's idea actually has a lot of merit, because profane bonuses are def something we should expect to see on Lifasa. I like the idea.

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

It's also usable far more often.

Fair.

[Iron Dragoon]

So Bask in My Raidance becoming an SLA is something I think worth pursuing. That said, I also agree that it needs something to speed it up. Giving it as an SLA and then the Quicken SLA feat for that ability only is a pretty good idea, I think. It imposes some limits on the ability (3/day) which might preserve balancing. I'm not 100% 3/day is a perfect balance, but it's probably a really good start.

As for the bleaching/profane thing. I tossed it out as an example of a descriptor having an unknown effect, but yeah, I also like it. That said, having it suppress bonuses while being attached to an ability that suppresses *all* magical effects seems a bit redundant to me. I'm not entirely certain how all the different bonus types work, Yuth mentioned something about innate bonuses, but maybe having it tied to the Holy Aura would be a better choice? Maybe something tied to how many rounds of exposure to the aura increasing the amount of bonuses being negated/suppressed?

[Yuthirin]

Having it tied to holy aura seems a bit too strong.

[Corwin]

So immediate actions come in place of swift actions during the following round. I have mutliaction for 2 swift actions per round, do I have only one immediate per round or 2?

[Anastasia]

Let me read up on immediates before I answer that. Do you need an answer for today's session?